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Author Topic: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?  (Read 119339 times)

Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #850 on: June 29, 2019, 11:11:10 PM »
You can't think that you'll be reviled in 50 years if there's no concept of how things might be 50 years in the future.  One has to operate within the reality of the moment.  Do you condemn geologists for talking about the fixed placement of continents prior to Wegener introducing the idea of continental drift in 1912?

There is a difference between scientific fact and moral imperative. I would hope even you are aware that this is an egregious false equivalency.

If you have a basic sense of empathy and compassion you can easily find many things where there is a dissonance between how people act and how people should act. I can spot many things now that are generally acceptable that will likely be seen as taboo in the future: Denying transgender people rights, littering, etc....

I can cultivate compassion and listen to others and spot even more things. I would hope that the leader of our country is a person that does this instead of a means-tested weathervane that naively follows the zeitgeist through bad and good like Joe Biden.

You don't like my example.  Fine.  It's what came to mind at the moment.

That said, I do believe that you have to judge people within the context of the civilization/knowledge/beliefs of the time. 

b_lumenkraft

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #851 on: June 30, 2019, 07:34:48 AM »
Are you religious, Bob? Do you know Jesus?

Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #852 on: June 30, 2019, 08:40:07 AM »
Are you religious, Bob? Do you know Jesus?

I met a guy named Jesus when I was living on my sailboat in Mexico some years back.  So, yes to the second question, I guess.  But we didn't keep up contact.

Religious? Most religions have decent ethical guidelines and many have built some very beautiful temples over the centuries.  But I don't find any of their creation myths believable.


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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #853 on: June 30, 2019, 08:49:52 AM »
so that went well!  ::)

Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #854 on: June 30, 2019, 09:43:25 AM »
so that went well!  ::)

What was actually more enjoyable was meeting Peter, John, Matthew, Paul, James, and Thomas. 

They were six of the seven guys working one of the monstrous dip nets near Kochi, Kerala.  I got to know them a bit because I was taking pictures and they invited me to join them pulling up the net.  When we pulled up the net it was loaded with fish, more in one haul than they had caught all day in several pulls combined.  After that they decided I was lucky and I had to stick around and keep helping until the tide quit running.  We did pretty good on the rest of the pulls and they tried to get me to come back when things started up again.

They were all Christians, belonging to the Church in Goa which is rumored to have been started by one of the apostles and predates the Pope.   They didn't introduce me to the seventh guy because he was "just a Muslim".

I've been to the place where the most recent Buddha was born, where he achieved enlightenment, where he gave his first sermon, and within 40 miles of where he died.  But I've never managed to meet anyone named Siddhartha.

I did get a glimpse of Vishnu, in the form of Bhumibol Adulyadej, King Rama IX of Thailand.  The kings of Thailand and Nepal are transformed into the god Vishnu upon coronation.  Didn't actually get to meet him.  Did spend a few days in his summer palace in northern Thailand which was a neat experience.

And I also got a glimpse of the Kumari Devi, the living goddess of Nepal.  She appeared very briefly at a window in her palace in Durbur Square.

Those are my religious highlights.  Personally, I'm closer to being a Bokononist than anything else.

sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #855 on: June 30, 2019, 10:14:02 AM »
Re: started by one of the apostles

St. Thomas.

Kerala is one of the nicer places in the world. Glad you had fun.

sidd


Neven

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #856 on: June 30, 2019, 11:04:03 AM »
But I don't find any of their creation myths believable.

But more believable than Joe Biden being a decent and good person, looking out for the average, non-donor Joe.  ::)
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b_lumenkraft

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #857 on: June 30, 2019, 11:26:59 AM »
Woah, DESTROYED by words.

Shared Humanity

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #858 on: June 30, 2019, 03:09:50 PM »
I've lived in Chicago my entire adult life and have met countless Jesus's over the years. Most have been pretty decent fellows although I would not say I've been inclined to follow any of them.

b_lumenkraft

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #859 on: June 30, 2019, 03:22:20 PM »
How this question turned into a talk about dudes called Jesus is remarkable.

I don't know what i should take from this.

Just to be clear, my question addressed the one mentioned in the Bible. The one who understood ethics so deeply.

That said, i'm not religiously offended (because i'm not religious at all), only a little intellectually disappointed.

TerryM

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #860 on: June 30, 2019, 04:36:49 PM »
Biden's a piece of shit - and Bob's a good guy who's been around for years.
If we yelled JESUS in one of the new concentration camps a dozen kids would respond SI.

Terry

Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #861 on: June 30, 2019, 06:16:51 PM »
Biden's a piece of shit - and Bob's a good guy who's been around for years.
If we yelled JESUS in one of the new concentration camps a dozen kids would respond SI.

Terry

Let me tell you about Bob.  You'll have to decide Bob is a piece of shit if you use the same rules you and Neven use to determine that Biden is a piece of shit.

Bob used to be a racist. 

Since the rule is one must always be judged on who they were or what they did earlier in life and not who they are now there is no option but to label Bob a piece of shit. 

And since the rule is that the societal norms and beliefs of the time cannot be used to understand the beliefs/actions of that person during that historical portion of their life must be ignore, that only today's awareness is a valid standard for judgement, there is no ability to allow Bob to shed his racist background, therefore he is and will always be a piece of shit.

Yours truly,
Bob the Piece of Shit

b_lumenkraft

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #862 on: June 30, 2019, 06:33:41 PM »
Since the rule is one must always be judged on who they were or what they did earlier in life and not who they are now there is no option but to label Bob a piece of shit. 

Bob, please answer the question i'm going to ask honestly or not at all.

According to your logic, any Nazi did what was opportune at the time when they gassed Jews. You can't judge them by previous actions, because, you know, different times...

So, do you believe the Nuremberg processes where wrong?



Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #863 on: June 30, 2019, 06:44:21 PM »
Since the rule is one must always be judged on who they were or what they did earlier in life and not who they are now there is no option but to label Bob a piece of shit. 

Bob, please answer the question i'm going to ask honestly or not at all.

According to your logic, any Nazi did what was opportune at the time when they gassed Jews. You can't judge them by previous actions, because, you know, different times...

So, do you believe the Nuremberg processes where wrong?

In the case of those who intentionally killed gays, Romas, the disabled, and Jews I believe they understood killing was wrong and they should have been punished for doing so. 

But I also understand how one can get caught up in a radical movement that is embraced by all those around you and that might be important to consider in how we judge individuals who were part of the action of many Europeans during WW II.

I don't have a black and white answer.  Many things in my life are very nuanced.  But perhaps that is to be expected from a piece of shit like me.

Neven

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #864 on: June 30, 2019, 06:45:30 PM »
Bob used to be a racist.

As soon as Bob runs for president, to keep the real left out and protect the donor gravy train, he is a piece of shit. We can't have hypocrite assholes like that run the most important country in the world. If we want to solve AGW, that is.

If Bob doesn't run for president, he's off the hook. At least, with regard to the racism in his past.

Yes, it's really that simple, and weak analogies don't change that.

Quote
But I also understand how one can get caught up in a radical movement that is embraced by all those around you and that might be important to consider in how we judge individuals who were part of the action of many Europeans during WW II.

You mean, like voting for the Iraq war, killing millions of people and counting?

How we judge those people is irrelevant. They are not fit for office. They are not fit to solve the global problems we face. They only make it worse.

You know this. You just hope to exchange Biden for Sanders, because of your fear that capitalism is destroyed by the commies (to get back on topic again), which in the American mind amounts to death. Fear of death is the greatest fear of all, and old people will do everything they can to fight it. Hence the hard and the soft denial.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2019, 06:51:54 PM by Neven »
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b_lumenkraft

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #865 on: June 30, 2019, 07:00:49 PM »
In the case of those who intentionally killed gays, Romas, the disabled, and Jews I believe they understood killing was wrong and they should have been punished for doing so. 

So you wouldn't give the murderer the free pass, that's good.

And how about those who looked away? Those somewhat 60 mio Germans enabling this. Knowing what happened, but never acted. Free pass completely? No guilt there?

Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #866 on: June 30, 2019, 07:19:00 PM »
Bob used to be a racist.

As soon as Bob runs for president, to keep the real left out and protect the donor gravy train, he is a piece of shit. We can't have hypocrite assholes like that run the most important country in the world. If we want to solve AGW, that is.

If Bob doesn't run for president, he's off the hook. At least, with regard to the racism in his past.

Yes, it's really that simple, and weak analogies don't change that.

Quote
But I also understand how one can get caught up in a radical movement that is embraced by all those around you and that might be important to consider in how we judge individuals who were part of the action of many Europeans during WW II.

You mean, like voting for the Iraq war, killing millions of people and counting?

How we judge those people is irrelevant. They are not fit for office. They are not fit to solve the global problems we face. They only make it worse.

You know this. You just hope to exchange Biden for Sanders, because of your fear that capitalism is destroyed by the commies (to get back on topic again), which in the American mind amounts to death. Fear of death is the greatest fear of all, and old people will do everything they can to fight it. Hence the hard and the soft denial.

Neven, you are simply wrong in some of your assumptions/beliefs.  And I'm not convinced that you have an open enough mind to consider where you might be wrong.

Neven

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #867 on: June 30, 2019, 07:35:40 PM »
Joe Biden is only good for one thing, Bob, and that's protecting capitalism as it currently is. Whether my mind is open or not, doesn't change this simple fact. He's a shallow shill for Big Whoever is Paying.
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Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #868 on: June 30, 2019, 08:04:12 PM »
Joe Biden is only good for one thing, Bob, and that's protecting capitalism as it currently is. Whether my mind is open or not, doesn't change this simple fact. He's a shallow shill for Big Whoever is Paying.

Quote
(Biden) said he supports expanding Medicare as an option for all Americans, telling a Pittsburgh audience in April that, “whether you're covered through your employer or on your own or not, you all should have a choice to be able to buy into a public option plan for Medicare.”

Obviously Biden is not protecting insurance companies when he backs an option that would allow people could obtain healthcare coverage from a source other than corporate insurance companies. 

Is your mind open enough to acknowledge that at least on this one issue Biden is not protecting capitalism as it currently is and, at least on this issue Biden is not shilling for Big Whoever is Paying?

Neven

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #869 on: June 30, 2019, 08:10:57 PM »
My mind is open enough to acknowledge that he is saying it. I don't know what his private position is, to quote predecessor HRC.
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Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #870 on: June 30, 2019, 08:14:04 PM »
Now, let's get a bit closer to home.  Is Joe Biden a corporate shill protecting capitalism as it is or does he support disrupting some corporations in order to deal with climate change.  This is copied from his official position paper...

Quote
Biden believes the Green New Deal is a crucial framework for meeting the climate challenges we face. It powerfully captures two basic truths, which are at the core of his plan: (1) the United States urgently needs to embrace greater ambition on an epic scale to meet the scope of this challenge, and (2) our environment and our economy are completely and totally connected.

If we can harness all of our energy and talents, and unmatchable American innovation, we can turn this threat into an opportunity to revitalize the U.S. energy sector and boost growth economy-wide. We can create new industries that reinvigorate our manufacturing and create high-quality, middle-class jobs in cities and towns across the United States. We can lead America to become the world’s clean energy superpower. We can export our clean-energy technology across the globe and create high-quality, middle-class jobs here at home.  Getting to a 100% clean energy economy is not only an obligation, it’s an opportunity. We should fully adopt a clean energy future, not just for all of us today, but for our children and grandchildren, so their tomorrow is healthier, safer, and more just.

Follow Biden's approach and the coal, gas, and oil industries will be destroyed.  Or forced to morph into something entirely different at significant cost to themselves.  That is hardly protecting BAU.

Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #871 on: June 30, 2019, 08:15:02 PM »
My mind is open enough to acknowledge that he is saying it. I don't know what his private position is, to quote predecessor HRC.

No, your mind is not open.  You've found a way to dismiss facts laid out before you.

Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #872 on: June 30, 2019, 08:30:08 PM »
I want to make two comments that explain a bit about who I am and what I believe.  Let me first deal with the people running in the Democratic primary. 

I am far from knowing who I want the candidate to be.  I have three, very loosely formed groups - 1) people who I think might make a very good US president, 2) people who I would not like to be the candidate, and 3) people who I know far too little about to put into one of the first two categories.  My groups are fluid.  Someone may move from any category to any other category as I get to know more about them.

1) Elizabeth Warren and possibly Kamilia Harris.

2) Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders.  I think both are too old, not in years, but in 'generational attitudes and awareness'.  And I think Bernie is basically an ass.  A shouty, grumpy person who shows no history of working well with others.

3) Everyone else. 



I'm defending Biden in this discussion because I think it goes to a larger issue.  Are any of us who we are now or are we who we were years earlier?  Are we all illiterate because at age 1 or 2 we couldn't read?  Are we all incredibly naive because we once believed in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy?

I think not allowing people to grow and change, to become better people is wrong and stupid.

I'll put my other comment in a separate posting because I find it confusing when people put multiple topic in a single comment.

b_lumenkraft

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #873 on: June 30, 2019, 08:35:25 PM »
And here is where we are coming from:

If you support Biden, you support structural racism, oligarchy and corporations.

If you support Sanders, you support human rights, equality and social justice.

Believe it or not, that's just what it is. It's about politics.

Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #874 on: June 30, 2019, 08:55:59 PM »
Bob the ex-racist.  Or is he still a racist because he once held racist beliefs?

I was born in the segregated South.  Twenty years before the 1964 Civil Rights act that ended legal segregation.  I lived the first 23 years of my life in the South.

The culture/society I grew up in held a common belief that people with dark hued skin did not have the intellectual ability of people with light skin.  I grew up with the racism of low expectations.  Had any of us been in the position of picking people for jobs that required deep thinking or ability to learn complex ideas we would have automatically excluded anyone with dark skin. 

Why did that belief exist and persist?  I think because none of us had ever encountered a darker skinned person who was highly educated.  We met only laborers and cleaners.  I'm sure there were well educated dark skinned teachers, authors, physicians and others but I never met one nor do not remember hearing about one.  The people who went to "Negro schools" were, in general, poorly educated which should be no surprise.  Schools for blacks were vastly inferior to the marginal schools I attended.  They got the totally worn out textbooks that we discarded and, I would guess, almost none of the students saw a value to a good education as there were so few employment opportunities if they did manage to get a good education.

I doubt anyone under 60, perhaps older, can understand how isolated rural people were at that time in history.  Our newspapers were white run and didn't challenge our beliefs.  They supported our beliefs.  Our radio stations didn't really present news.  We had a half hour of national news on TV in the evening but that was not enough time to educate, only to cover a few major stories.

It wasn't until I was in college that I met a couple of black people who were, obviously, a bit smarter than the average white person I had grown up around.  And I remember in my junior year in a psychology class, reading about a young black girl who had scored 110 on an intelligence test.  This was earthshaking for most of us in the class.  It challenged the beliefs of pretty much everyone in the room.  We discussed the inaccuracy of testing and the possibility of a mistake but it was another thing that led to my change of belief.

Over the next few years I met more intelligent black people and was introduced to the black authors that I had never heard of before.  My change from who I was to who I am was fairly rapid.  By the time I was 25 I had become a different person than who I was at 20.

Now, am I the racist Bob of age 1 through 20 or am I the non-racist Bob of age 25 through 75?  Do I get judged by who I was or who I am?


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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #875 on: June 30, 2019, 09:05:10 PM »
Or is he still a racist because he once held racist beliefs?

No, he is a racist because he supports the status quo! And the status quo is structural racism!

How is this so hard to understand for you? To make this clear is the whole point of pages and pages of replies to you!

Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #876 on: June 30, 2019, 09:05:53 PM »
And here is where we are coming from:

If you support Biden, you support structural racism, oligarchy and corporations.

If you support Sanders, you support human rights, equality and social justice.

Believe it or not, that's just what it is. It's about politics.

Prove your claim.  Show us something that Biden has done in recent history that supports your racism charge.

Biden has always been a champion of the working class.  On this topic you are simply ignorant.  Biden has always been a strong supporter of worker unions. 

Earlier I stated that I thought someone had sold you a bucket of bullshit.  I continue with that belief. 

IMO, Sanders has a good set of issues.  I agree with them.  But I don't think Sanders is the best person to implement the changes needed, I don't think he has the personal ability.  And, remember, Sanders is not the only candidate who believes that we need to work harder on the issues he talks about.  You won't find a single Democratic candidate who does not support human rights, equality and social justice.

BTW, Sanders supports corporations.  He is calling for regulations that change some of the things corporations are allowed to do.  All the Democratic candidates, as far as I can tell, hold the same position.

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #877 on: June 30, 2019, 09:07:04 PM »
Quote
Do I get judged by who I was or who I am?

You get judged by what you did. Here's what spineless, money-grubbing, war-mongering Joe Biden has done: Protect crony capitalism.
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b_lumenkraft

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #878 on: June 30, 2019, 09:12:04 PM »
Prove your claim.

Dude! Do you even read what i write?? I told you about the Anita Hill thing. I told you about his voting record. I told you many more things repeatedly.

I linked an explaining video that you refused to watch.

You dismiss everything coming your way and keep spreading BS.

And now you say i have to prove it? Are you out of your mind??



Neven

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #879 on: June 30, 2019, 09:18:36 PM »
You dismiss everything coming your way and keep spreading BS.

And he totally derails this thread by saying Joe Biden is a good person, so he doesn't have to discuss alternatives to capitalism. Just like Joe Biden would have it.

I will post Joe Biden's history, and after that this discussion will have to take place elsewhere:

Quote
Of course, now that Biden is preparing to run on Obama’s legacy, he will tell you that he’s always been the darling of liberal groups. “The traditional judgements of whether or not you were, quote, a ‘liberal,’” he recently said, was “what your positions on race were, on women, what’s your position on LGBT community, what’s your positions on civil liberties. You know, I’ll stack my record on those things against anybody who’s ever run, who is running now, or who will run.”

The trouble for Biden is, his record on all of these matters and others isn’t particularly great.

Biden catapulted to prominence in the 1970s by rebelling against school integration through busing. Biden reached across the aisle to his friend Jesse Helms — one of the most virulent racists in modern politics — to launch relentless verbal and legislative attacks on school busing that, if taken literally, would have scaled back the government’s power to desegregate more broadly, and he bragged that he’d made it okay for other liberals to do so. This was all OK because, as Biden frequently claimed, he had been a civil rights activist. Later he was forced to admit he had simply worked at an all-black swimming pool during the Civil Rights Movement.

The next couple of decades saw Biden turn his attention to another issue: waging “war” against drugs and crime. Eliminating parole, civil asset forfeiture, harsh mandatory minimums for drug possession, the crack and powder cocaine sentencing disparity, dozens of new death penalties, and unprecedented resources poured into building new prisons and arresting people to fill them with: Biden was not a marginal player in enacting all this and more. He was one of the driving forces, constantly bragging about his role in policies that devastated black communities, policies adopted for nakedly electoral purposes. “I would like to see the conservative wing of the Democratic Party,” he once quipped.

It’s no coincidence that the two issues Biden leaned on most heavily in the first half of his career to show off his centrist credentials were also ones that made life markedly worse for African Americans: political “moderation” after the 1960s usually meant how far you were willing to go to thumb your nose at the cause of civil rights. So Biden’s close relationship with another of Congress’s most storied racists — Strom Thurmond, whom he later warmly eulogized as a “brave man” who “truly wanted to help” — is no surprise either.

The 1990s-era crackdown on immigrants — the period when the vast deportation apparatus now in the hands of Trump was largely built — was another Biden cause. He was a loyal soldier in this crusade, supporting a special ban on accepting immigrants if they were HIV positive; easing rules for deportation, even for legal residents with families; restricting immigrants’ access to welfare; and even at one point suggesting deploying troops to deal with undocumented immigrants. A plan later devised by Biden to slow migration from Latin America only further fueled the violence and misery that migrants were fleeing in the first place, paving the way for future migration crises, for which, as vice president, he would prescribe the same self-defeating solutions.

The 1990s also saw Biden take aim at civil liberties, authoring anti-terror bills that, among other things, “gutted the federal writ of habeas corpus,” as one legal scholar later reflected. It was this earlier legislation that led Biden to brag to anyone listening that he was effectively the author of the Bush-era Patriot Act, which, in his view, didn’t go far enough. He inserted a provision into the bill that allowed for the militarization of local law enforcement and again suggested deploying the military within US borders, before transforming into a civil liberties defender in the latter part of the Bush presidency, once the political winds had shifted.

Biden also spent the 1990s voting for a string of neoliberal policies: NAFTA, one of the most devastating political defeats for unions in recent memory, and one where Biden was a crucial vote that switched to help it pass; the balanced budget amendment to the Constitution, which he had earlier decried as “mak[ing] Herbert Hoover’s economic policy a constitutional mandate,” a claim that if anything understates the case; Clinton’s appalling welfare reform; and the repeal of the New Deal-era Glass-Steagall prohibition on banks engaging in risky securities dealings. He did this all while moaning endlessly about excessive government spending.

Not long after the turn of the twentieth century, Biden enthusiastically voted for the greatest foreign policy disaster of the twenty-first: the Iraq War (“I voted to go into Iraq, and I’d vote to do it again”). It was the worst of a pattern for Biden, who backed Margaret Thatcher’s war in the Falklands and was one of the key figures pushing for NATO’s eastward expansion in the 1990s, a needless provocation of Russia that the famed Cold War diplomat George Kennan, speaking more than a year before Vladimir Putin took office, presciently denounced as “the beginning of a new cold war.” Biden’s strategy for Afghanistan is indistinguishable from the one the Trump administration is now pursuing, and his “counterterrorism plus” approach — the use of drone strikes and special forces anywhere in the world — became Obama’s anti-terror policy, one that visited death and carnage to a long series of countries and fueled the very threat it was supposed to extinguish.

Needless to say, Biden isn’t just pro-Israel — he’s one of the most Israel-friendly politicians of his generation. Through speaking fees and campaign donations, Israel has been good to Biden his whole career, and Biden’s been good right back, from pushing for more US aid to voting to move the embassy to Jerusalem — another extremist policy Trump cribbed from Biden and his friends — and even chiding the Bush administration for its criticism of Israel’s assassination program. But being “the best friend of Israel” in the Obama administration didn’t get him far with Benjamin Netanyahu, who openly rebelled against the US under Obama, and humiliatingly announced new illegal settlements in the middle of an official visit from Biden.

Finally, the Biden family’s propensity for engaging in money-making ventures that — gee whiz, just somehow seem to constantly overlap with Biden’s political career — will make him a perfect foil to Trump. Whether it’s Biden’s son, Hunter, being hired as a lobbyist for a Delaware credit card company whose favored legislation Biden was voting for; Biden’s brother mysteriously getting hired by a mid-size construction firm shortly before it received a $1.5 billion government contract; or Hunter, again, joining the board of a corruption-tainted Ukrainian gas producer while Biden spearheaded US policy on Ukraine. That last issue is likely a ticking time bomb, with Ukrainian officials recently disclosing to the Hill that Biden leaned on the country’s government to fire its top prosecutor just as he was set to investigate the gas company, including interviewing Biden’s son.

The most damning thing is that Biden hasn’t changed. While other candidates with similarly troubling records at least understand the need to pay lip service to progressive ideas, there’s little indication Biden has moved an inch in his thinking. He doesn’t think “five hundred billionaires are the reason we’re in trouble,” and has “no empathy” for millennials. He still supports the Trans-Pacific Partnership. He still thinks adding to the conditions that fuel migration is the best way to stop it. He still wants to cut Medicare and Social Security.

In short, a Joe Biden nomination would likely be a disaster, alienating the same voters who deserted Hillary Clinton in 2016, while running on a similarly lackluster platform. The only thing that could be more harmful is a Joe Biden presidency, which, to take him at his word, would see the former vice president collaborate with an increasingly extreme GOP in an effort to achieve some of the Right’s most long-cherished goals, including paring back the last remnants of the New Deal. Even scarier is the likelihood that such a disillusioning presidency could subsequently pave the way for a far-right populist even more virulent — and competent — than Trump.

The good news is, a Biden nomination is far from inevitable, and his choice to run on a continuation of Obama’s legacy will provide the broad left an opportunity to relitigate that administration’s shortcomings without taking aim at the preternaturally popular ex-president himself. In the meantime, if someone you know is unfamiliar with Biden’s record on busing, mass incarceration, neoliberal economics, war and civil liberties, abortion, or immigration, there’s an easy way to acquaint them.
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Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #880 on: June 30, 2019, 10:05:54 PM »
<snip, take it elsewhere; N.>
« Last Edit: June 30, 2019, 10:24:18 PM by Neven »

Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #881 on: June 30, 2019, 10:29:02 PM »
<snip, take it elsewhere; N.>

Well done, Neven.

Take down comments that show you in a bad light but leave up yours that attack others.

Someday you might benefit by spending a bit of time in self-reflection.

Neven

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #882 on: June 30, 2019, 10:41:34 PM »
Why did you come back, Bob? You contribute zilch to the Arctic sea ice discussions, you slammed the door when you left last time, and now you're back, acting as if nothing happened, continuing your spouting of the same neoliberal, Green BAU BS. Do you perhaps enjoy the confrontations? Because I don't.
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Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #883 on: June 30, 2019, 10:41:57 PM »
OK back to the topic.  Has there been a workable alternative to capitalism presented?

If so, can someone describe it and give it a name?  And, please, no social safety net/capitalism hybrid which is already what most capitalist countries are, but a true 100% non-capitalistic economic system.

If someone suggests a true socialism system please include how innovation would be rewarded and how the money needed for new ventures would be acquired.  How those the system deal with those who just want their share of stuff without doing their share of the work.  We've yet to see an attempt at socialism work.  How might such a system work and work well?

Or give us a third way.

b_lumenkraft

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #884 on: June 30, 2019, 10:50:25 PM »
OK back to the topic.  Has there been a workable alternative to capitalism presented?
If so, can someone describe it and give it a name?

Social Democracy!

Strong social safety net (i.e. universal single-payer healthcare, unemployment insurance, etc), strong customer and environmental regulations (so people are protected from corporations), no private company can own public infrastructure - must be in public hands (water, power, internet, roads, etc.)

Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #885 on: June 30, 2019, 10:54:13 PM »
Why did you come back, Bob? You contribute zilch to the Arctic sea ice discussions, you slammed the door when you left last time, and now you're back, acting as if nothing happened, continuing your spouting of the same neoliberal, Green BAU BS. Do you perhaps enjoy the confrontations? Because I don't.

I came back because there are some people here who are interested in solutions that have a good chance of working. 

Neoliberalism - a modified form of liberalism tending to favor free-market capitalism.  If that is what you are charging me with, it's incorrect.  I favor a well regulated market which protects people and the environment from those who put personal gain over everything else.  But I do believe that without the ability to gain from personal efforts and initiative our pace of solving problems would be greatly retarded.

BAU - that charge is simply silly.  One cannot champion renewable energy and electric powered transportation as I continuously do and support business as usual.  If you mean I don't support the overthrow of governments so that a new utopian form of government can emerge, then OK.  I don't live in fantasyland.

If you don't enjoy confrontations then don't post anything with which someone might disagree.  Or simple take down comments you don't like and ban people who don't totally agree with you.

I don't add anything to the Arctic sea ice discussions because I got what I wanted from this site and your blog some time back.  I learned what is happening to both sea and land ice and why.  I have what I think is a good understanding of the basics.  I keep up with current developments by checking sea ice charts pretty much every day and glancing at articles posted.  At some point the discussions got far too far into the weeds to interest me.  I'm not a dedicated student of ice which many of the posters have become.  And that leaves me with nothing to add.  I'm not doing a graduate degree in ice.

Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #886 on: June 30, 2019, 11:00:13 PM »
OK back to the topic.  Has there been a workable alternative to capitalism presented?
If so, can someone describe it and give it a name?

Social Democracy!

Strong social safety net (i.e. universal single-payer healthcare, unemployment insurance, etc), strong customer and environmental regulations (so people are protected from corporations), no private company can own public infrastructure - must be in public hands (water, power, internet, roads, etc.)

How does that differ from a hybrid social safety net/capitalism economic system?    Several capitalist countries have universal single-payer healthcare, unemployment insurance, etc.  Even the evil US is working its way toward universal healthcare and already has unemployment insurance plus some etc.

Why would a non-capitalist country need protection from corporations?  There would be no corporations in a non-capitalistic system.

In you system who would own the car plant?  Who would own the farms and farm equipment?

Neven

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #887 on: June 30, 2019, 11:05:35 PM »
Quote
If you don't enjoy confrontations then don't post anything with which someone might disagree.  Or simple take down comments you don't like and ban people who don't totally agree with you.

If I would ban people who don't totally agree with me, this forum would have one member. That's not the reason why I would ban you. I would ban you because I'm done with the strawmen, the projection, the arrogant tone, and most of all, the soft denial. It's a much bigger problem than the hard denial, and it's everywhere around us. I'd like to keep this place as free of it as I can.

I'm in a bad mood now, so I'm going to sleep over it. If I feel the same tomorrow, I'll take you up on your suggestion and ban you.
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Neven

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #888 on: June 30, 2019, 11:07:08 PM »
I'm fine with capitalism, but the capital needs to be as deconcentrated as can be, and you do that by putting a cap on individual wealth.
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Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #889 on: June 30, 2019, 11:23:38 PM »
I'm fine with capitalism, but the capital needs to be as deconcentrated as can be, and you do that by putting a cap on individual wealth.

I don't think a cap on individual wealth is sellable.  But we need to find ways to spread wealth more equally. 

Clearly we could increase taxes on higher earnings and close loopholes that don't benefit the country in some meaningful manner. 

We might be able to establish a wealth tax but it's hard to imagine how one would work.  How would you evaluate a person's wealth?  What would keep people from moving their wealth offshore?  Or just leaving the country altogether?  We'd risk decapitalizing the US.

I think we could sell a tax on high levels of compensation in corporations.  Possibly limit the tax deduction for executives so that it covered only '30x' the amount earned by the lowest paid full time employee.  Anything over that would not be deductible and be taxed as part of the corporation's tax obligation.




morganism

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #890 on: June 30, 2019, 11:27:51 PM »
America’s Monopoly Crisis Hits the Military

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/americas-monopoly-crisis-hits-the-military/

"This shift happened because Wall Street, or “the LBO (leveraged buy-out) guys” as Hickey put it, bought up manufacturing facilities in the 1990s and moved them to China.

“The middle-class Americans who did the manufacturing work, all that capability, machine tools, knowledge, it just became worthless, driven by the stock price,” he said. “The national ability to produce is a national treasure. If you can’t produce you won’t consume, and you can’t defend yourself.”

"But it’s not just the dual-use commercial manufacturing base that is collapsing. Our policy empowering Wall Street and offshoring has also damaged the more specialized defense base, which directly produces weaponry and equipment for the military.

How pervasive is the loss of such capacity? In September 2018, the Department of Defense released findings of its analysis into its supply chain. The results highlighted how fragile our ability to supply our own military has become.

The report listed dozens of militarily significant items and inputs with only one or two domestic producers, or even none at all. Many production facilities are owned by companies that are financially vulnerable and at high risk of being shut down. Some of the risk comes from limited production capability. Mortar tubes, for example, are made on just one production line, and some Marine aircraft parts are made by just one company—one which recently filed for bankruptcy."

b_lumenkraft

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #891 on: June 30, 2019, 11:35:05 PM »
How does that differ from a hybrid social safety net/capitalism economic system?

Not.

Well, despite the 'no private infrastructure' part maybe.

Quote
Why would a non-capitalist country need protection from corporations?

Because it's in the interest of the company to make money. If this means screwing over people they can't explain to their shareholders why they didn't so they do. The state needs to protect them. If you don't you get a polluted environment and screwed over customers.

Quote
In you system who would own the car plant?  Who would own the farms and farm equipment?

In my system? To be honest, social democracy is not the system i would prefer. It's the system that's the least utopic and the least evil one given the circumstances.

If it was about me, you'd hear a rougher tone! One child policy, no private wealth, planned economy, bullshitter and liars would be sent to the gulag for a few weeks. Religion would be banned. But that's way too utopic, so why would i argue for it?

Neven

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #892 on: June 30, 2019, 11:49:13 PM »
I don't think a cap on individual wealth is sellable.


You're probably right, but an attempt must be made, if only to shift the Overton Window by directly addressing the root of the problem: Concentrated wealth.

Quote
Clearly we could increase taxes on higher earnings and close loopholes that don't benefit the country in some meaningful manner.

Also very difficult, and perhaps not sellable, but agreed in principle.

Quote
We might be able to establish a wealth tax but it's hard to imagine how one would work.  How would you evaluate a person's wealth?  What would keep people from moving their wealth offshore?  Or just leaving the country altogether?  We'd risk decapitalizing the US.

-I don't know, how do they know how much Bezos or Gates are worth?
-If they move their wealth offshore, they lose their nationality and they get tarred for being traitors. That's the stick. The carrot is that rich people need to be saved, just like any other group of addicts. It's just a suggestion. This is how primitive tribes made sure no member would try to grab power and destroy their community: through taboos and excommunication.
-Most rich people live in bubbles and are to be pitied, but even then, I don't know how easy it would be for them to be away from home in the long term. They also want to belong.
-Yes, there are risks. Not capping individual wealth, means concentrated wealth keeps stimulating a dynamic that eats all of society and then itself, in that vicious cycle humanity has been in since the invention of agriculture, at ever larger stakes.

Quote
I think we could sell a tax on high levels of compensation in corporations.  Possibly limit the tax deduction for executives so that it covered only '30x' the amount earned by the lowest paid full time employee.  Anything over that would not be deductible and be taxed as part of the corporation's tax obligation.

Yes, that's a good idea for the employees, the lackeys of concentrated wealth (Schumacher proposed these things many decades ago). But the owners need to be capped, so that wealth is deconcentrated and becomes less powerful.

There are a lot of consequences and secondary issues to be discussed, but the core question that needs to be answered, is this: Can anything be solved, can capitalism survive even, if concentrated wealth is allowed to continue to grow and concentrate at exponential rates? I think the answer is no.
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zizek

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #893 on: July 01, 2019, 12:03:37 AM »
OK back to the topic.  Has there been a workable alternative to capitalism presented?
Soviet Union? China?

And uhhh. Cuba? They even have one of the most robust and bold climate change action plans to date..... Doing so while under violent attack and decades long sanctions from the biggest economic problem in the world! The United States!

If someone suggests a true socialism system please include how innovation would be rewarded and how the money needed for new ventures would be acquired.  How those the system deal with those who just want their share of stuff without doing their share of the work.  We've yet to see an attempt at socialism work.  How might such a system work and work well?

Or give us a third way.

Bob, You have a grade school understanding of what socialism is.
under socialism, nowhere does it state that a worker can't be rewarded for innovation and hard work. If someone is an exceptional worker, or has made significant sacrifice, or made an important discovery. You know how you reward them? You pay them more! Wow! Amazing right? Did I just blow your mind?

That worker can then spend that additional pay on nicer food, more lavish vacations, a fancier car, a nicer home. But you know what that worker can't spend their money on?  They can't buy additional property to become a parasitic landlord. He can't buy-out the firm so he can steal workers wages.  And he can't invest his pay into magic money like derivatives and stocks.
But why would he want to invest his money anyways? For retirement? A socialist state guarantees a meaningful retirement for all its workers. As a rainy day fund? A socialist state provides adequate welfare. Health problems? Health care is free!

How those the system deal with those who just want their share of stuff without doing their share of the work.

lol bob. That's only a problem in capitalism. Where multi-millionaires and billionaires inherit wealth while never working a day in their lives. their entire lives are supported by the stolen labor of the many

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #894 on: July 01, 2019, 12:09:04 AM »
Quote
Well, despite the 'no private infrastructure' part maybe.

I'm not sold on the no private infrastructure part.  I've worked for three state governments and the federal government and each situation I found little effort to cut waste/be more efficient.  And a great reluctance to innovate.  I think things tend to work better if there is some competition. 

Quote
Because it's in the interest of the company to make money.

In a non-capitalistic country there would be no corporations or companies seeking to make a profit.  Everything, I imagine, would be owned by the state and operated at cost.  So far we have only capitalism with various levels of social safety nets and socialism on the table.  There has been no third economic model presented.

Quote
One child policy, no private wealth, planned economy, bullshitter and liars would be sent to the gulag for a few weeks. Religion would be banned

Sounds like you would have gotten along well with Joe and Mao.  Don't know if you noticed, but their systems didn't work well and had to be supported with lot gulag type stuff. Do you really want to give Communism another go?



zizek

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #895 on: July 01, 2019, 12:13:19 AM »
I'm fine with capitalism, but the capital needs to be as deconcentrated as can be, and you do that by putting a cap on individual wealth.

Capitalism has spent the last few centuries entrenching itself deeper and deeper into our lives. The elite have become incredibly effective at protecting their wealth. They will react violently, as the have in every other moment in history, to the thought of an actual cap on their wealth. And if you get your cap in place, they will continue to use their connections, leftover wealth, friendly politicians to destroy or just ignore your wealth cap.

Why do you insist on just a wealth cap? What is your aversion to democratizing the economy - socialism? Why surrender power to the people that are destroying our world, our humanity, our communities, our health?

magnamentis

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #896 on: July 01, 2019, 12:14:39 AM »
quote author=b_lumenkraft link=topic=1102.msg209631#msg209631 date=1561930505]
Because it's in the interest of the company to make money. If this means screwing over people they can't explain to their shareholders why they didn't so they do. The state needs to protect them. If you don't you get a polluted environment and screwed over customers.

Quote
In you system who would own the car plant?  Who would own the farms and farm equipment?

In my system? To be honest, social democracy is not the system i would prefer. It's the system that's the least utopic and the least evil one given the circumstances.

If it was about me, you'd hear a rougher tone! One child policy, no private wealth, planned economy, bullshitter and liars would be sent to the gulag for a few weeks. Religion would be banned. But that's way too utopic, so why would i argue for it?
[/quote]

if a solution is necessary we have to focus on it despite whether it's currently utopical.

you proposals are mostly workarounds or buzz-wordy eyewashing.

we need another system in terms of:

a) monetary system without interest (on interest on interest) etc. it's causing forced growth and makes some people do the work while others live from concentrated wealth and it's optimization.

b) responsibility of our leaders for their doing an this in the full range from hurtful penalties up to live sentences in prison in in some rare cases death sentences (war crimes etc.)

c) cap wealth or in other words, distribute wealth better by fair participation of employees, best probably through pension increases and benefits, else it will be difficult to cut wages in bad times and increase them in good times, wages must be stable and other benefits can vary

d) to throw the corrupt to prison in masses

e) to prohibit lobbying that is legal corruption where the too rich purchase conditions after their will.

my 2 books on this topics have 950 pages all together, it's alway dangerous to provide that kind of complex input i 10-20 lines.  nevertheless social and fair are not useful terms anymore becaue they have been vastly abused and every party (group) defines fairness and socially feasible very different.

we need very specific cuts/rules for politicians, elections, impeachments for far less than it can happen in the U.S.

a president who is tweeting is neither a statesman nor presidential. IMO those social media have outlived their original purpose and became a playground for evil and distraction, keeping our next generation from learning things they will need and will later complain why they get nowhere and make war.

etc. etc. etc..    no way to finish here on this topic.

about the other guy i did not dare to say something but i'm glad that keeping my mouth shut at times leads to the same results.

cheers.

zizek

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #897 on: July 01, 2019, 12:23:13 AM »
The propaganda and hyper-normalization of capitalism in our society is amazing. With the advent of climate change, most people now think the end of the world is more likely than the end of capitalism.

Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #898 on: July 01, 2019, 12:24:13 AM »
I don't think a cap on individual wealth is sellable.


You're probably right, but an attempt must be made, if only to shift the Overton Window by directly addressing the root of the problem: Concentrated wealth.

Quote
Clearly we could increase taxes on higher earnings and close loopholes that don't benefit the country in some meaningful manner.

Also very difficult, and perhaps not sellable, but agreed in principle.

Quote
We might be able to establish a wealth tax but it's hard to imagine how one would work.  How would you evaluate a person's wealth?  What would keep people from moving their wealth offshore?  Or just leaving the country altogether?  We'd risk decapitalizing the US.

-I don't know, how do they know how much Bezos or Gates are worth?
-If they move their wealth offshore, they lose their nationality and they get tarred for being traitors. That's the stick. The carrot is that rich people need to be saved, just like any other group of addicts. It's just a suggestion. This is how primitive tribes made sure no member would try to grab power and destroy their community: through taboos and excommunication.
-Most rich people live in bubbles and are to be pitied, but even then, I don't know how easy it would be for them to be away from home in the long term. They also want to belong.
-Yes, there are risks. Not capping individual wealth, means concentrated wealth keeps stimulating a dynamic that eats all of society and then itself, in that vicious cycle humanity has been in since the invention of agriculture, at ever larger stakes.

Quote
I think we could sell a tax on high levels of compensation in corporations.  Possibly limit the tax deduction for executives so that it covered only '30x' the amount earned by the lowest paid full time employee.  Anything over that would not be deductible and be taxed as part of the corporation's tax obligation.

Yes, that's a good idea for the employees, the lackeys of concentrated wealth (Schumacher proposed these things many decades ago). But the owners need to be capped, so that wealth is deconcentrated and becomes less powerful.

There are a lot of consequences and secondary issues to be discussed, but the core question that needs to be answered, is this: Can anything be solved, can capitalism survive even, if concentrated wealth is allowed to continue to grow and concentrate at exponential rates? I think the answer is no.

I think increasing tax rates and closing some loopholes is likely to happen if we put Democrats back in control.  I think well over 50% of all voters would support that if it wasn't too drastic.  It's one of those things that is probably best done in steps, letting people adjust to one small change before introducing another. 

We don't know what Gates or anyone else is actually worth.  We make guesses on what we know they own.  We have no idea how many tons of diamonds they might have hidden in the cellar.  We don't know what they own via foreign registered corporations.  There are many, many ways to hide wealth.

If I had several billion dollars, you wanted to take it from me, and the only consequence would be to be labeled a traitor you'd quickly be calling me a citizen of another country.  We saw British rockers and other successful artists leave the UK just over extremely high income taxes. 

Capitalism will collapse on itself if allowed to become a monopoly.  Unless it is an aware monopoly it will cut the purchasing power of workers to the point at which they have nothing to spend and the monopoly will lose its customer base, which is its employees.  The US reached that point in the early part of the 20th Century and reversed things so some degree during FDR's term.  We've now allowed things to get out of balance again and will again need to make adjustments.  Until some new form of human behavior emerges we, and every other country, will wander between extremes.


Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #899 on: July 01, 2019, 12:27:16 AM »
Quote
monetary system without interest

Why would I loan you any of my money to start a business or buy a house if I couldn't make some money in exchange for the risk and not having immediate access to my money?