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Shared Humanity

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1050 on: November 03, 2019, 02:52:52 AM »

sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1051 on: November 05, 2019, 02:55:05 AM »
Varoufakis at commondreams :

"let me challenge the term “neoliberal.” The use of the term in relation to West-Soviet relations was just a cloak under which to hide libertarian industrial feudalism, but neoliberalism has as much to do with financialized capital post-1970s as it does with Cold War geopolitical relations"

"Gigantic bank bailouts are funded through taxation. There is nothing really “neoliberal” about the use of such vast subsidies from the public to finance capitalists."

"I don’t think we should concede the term “neoliberalism” to the brutish establishment using state power to redistribute wealth from the haves to the have-nots."

"Banks could not do as they pleased; that’s why bankers hated the Bretton Woods system. Recall that Roosevelt banned bankers from attending the Bretton Woods conference and subjected them to reserve controls and rules against shifting money across international borders."

"So, if you think of capitalism as a voting mechanism, it is anti-democratic in the sense that money determines power."

"power has been redistributed from the political sphere to the economic sphere. "

" What we now call democracy is not real democracy given the growing influence of economic power."

"Since the end of the Bretton Woods system in the 1970s, power has migrated to finance. "

"Capitalism is predicated on defeating democracy, even as the democratic cloak continues to legitimize the prevailing system."

"I’m an old-fashioned lefty. I don’t believe in destroying institutions. I believe in taking them over and transforming them into true public servants."

"Let’s not forget that the historical call was not for workers of each nation to organize within their borders. It was for workers of the world to unite."

"Anybody who doesn’t learn from history is a dangerous fanatic. Lesson number one is that socialist nationalism is the worst antidote to national socialism."

"the present system is, simply stated, both awful and unsustainable."

"We need to emancipate progressives from the notion that strong borders protect the working class. They do not. They are a scar on the face of the Earth, and they harm labor across the world."

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2019/11/02/another-europe-possible

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wili

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1052 on: November 05, 2019, 04:42:33 AM »
"I don’t think we should concede the term “neoliberalism” to the brutish establishment using state power to redistribute wealth from the haves to the have-nots."

Did he get that last part switched around, or am I missing something here?
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1053 on: November 05, 2019, 09:05:58 AM »
Yes that quote seems backwards ...

sidd

Neven

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1054 on: November 05, 2019, 10:07:14 AM »
Varoufakis is great at blah-blah, but if he is so mega-smart, why doesn't he simply explain that the problem is concentrated wealth, and that the solution is to deconcentrate it?

Quote
Anybody who doesn’t learn from history is a dangerous fanatic.

History teaches us that when wealth is allowed to have no bounds, it will take over and then destroy itself and everything attached to it. That's the vicious cycle we have been in ever since the invention of agriculture (allowing people to store grains and thus make others dependent on them).
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nanning

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1055 on: November 05, 2019, 10:09:38 AM »
Another solution is to abolish inheritance.

100% goes to the state after you die. A part of it will be evenly redistributed and a part will be used to rebuild public utilities such as free public electrified transport, free healthcare, reinstate a real 'safety net' etc. Rebuild with a much more equal society. Free and improved education. No more private schools, hospitals, aeroplanes etc. Have a much more potent national government to face the looming disaster of AGW/biosphere collapse.

Personal wealth during lifetime: OK
Familiy wealth: Gone :)
(family empires gone at last. Finally a reset of the accumulation system)

An extremely important extra: the possibility that every newborn human will have equal opportunities.

It's just your wealth. You don't need it when you're dead. Why not abolish inheritance? Why not?
(Empire. Accumulation.)
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome

Neven

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1056 on: November 05, 2019, 12:48:09 PM »
100% goes to the state after you die. A part of it will be evenly redistributed and a part will be used to rebuild public utilities such as free public electrified transport, free healthcare, reinstate a real 'safety net' etc.

And a very large part will be swallowed up by bureaucracy, with mighty officials making sure their kids/relatives inherit their position. In fact, this would be an incentive for government to start killing people.

You need to limit how much a person can own, not put it at zero. There is some truth to the criticism of libertarians that if the government controls everything, things will go downhill fast. Government is just another corporation with monopolistic tendencies, trying to circumvent limits in its own way.
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wili

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1057 on: November 05, 2019, 03:05:44 PM »
Ideally, of course, the government is in the hands of the people, and (ideally again) no one person has extraordinary influence over government if monetary power were kept fairly equal.

Ideally...
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

nanning

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1058 on: November 05, 2019, 06:38:15 PM »
<snip>
You need to limit how much a person can own, not put it at zero.

I didn't write that. I wrote "Personal wealth during lifetime: OK". If one starts with nothing and loses everything when dead, then the accumulation limit is not needed.

Remember: the politicians' families won't have an empire anymore as well. Their whole rapacious incentive will be gone. Please recognize the extreme power of this specific accumulation driver: inheritance and family wealth... more more etc. Where do we know that from?
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome

sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1059 on: November 10, 2019, 08:02:17 PM »
Scahill interviews Taylor at the intercept: organized economic disobedience as political weapon

" conversation has been framed around populism, warnings about unruly people we can’t trust. But I think for me, the problem is actually that we’re living in the age of minoritarian politics, minoritarian control."

"the message that wealthy, powerful people want to hear, which is, sorry lowly people, you can’t have nice things."

"we essentially have a system, an electoral system where bribery is legalized in terms of campaign contributions"

"there’s a bigger thing they’re afraid of though because what this means to have universal health care is to decommodify this huge industry, and it’s to connect decommodification with democratization, right? Maybe there are huge areas of social life that should not be not just subjected to the market extremes but actually taken off the market completely, right? And that’s very threatening to the status quo."

"Because once you start decommodifying one area, well, why not others? Let’s take education off the market, right? Let’s take housing off the market. What would it be like to live in a home that you don’t have to pray appreciates in value that’s not actually a speculative asset or someone else’s speculative asset?  ... more of social life should be public, should be decommodified. That’s what democracy entails and that is deeply threatening to a ruling class."

" this reduction of democracy to that: to whether or not you can just get to the voting booth "

"I found young people who are keenly aware of their own status as an economic and social elite, who recognize — they had no delusions — they recognize that the empowerment of the majority of people would mean that they would lose some of their privilege ... they basically said, we don’t want democracy."

"it was convenient for capitalists to speak in terms of democracy, to wrap themselves up in that mantle, right. They don’t need it anymore "

"the best example of that to me is George Washington, the first president, who was this vicious real estate speculator who basically, why did he want the American Revolution? So, he could speculate on stolen indigenous land. So, let’s just not deceive ourselves. "

"What if debtors had been organized, mortgage holders had been organized? So we try to organize people around what type of debt by their specific creditors and say we need to engage in collective bargaining ...$1.6 trillion of student debt is $1.6 trillion of leverage. Let’s start using it."

"since 2015, we’ve helped win over a billion and a half dollars of debt relief. "

"A million people default every year, but they do it individually ... Hey million people who are defaulting, step out of the shadows and become a political force."

https://theintercept.com/2019/11/10/astra-taylor-intercepted-podcast/

sidd

Sigmetnow

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1060 on: November 21, 2019, 09:03:23 PM »
Restaurant with no prices on the menu.  Serves locally-sourced food.  Make a donation, or help out, as payment.
Quote
George Takei (@GeorgeTakei) 11/21/19, 2:45 PM
What a wonderful initiative, bravo @jonbonjovi. Let's hope this serves as a model for others to follow.
https://twitter.com/georgetakei/status/1197601967255818240
Short video at the link.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

TerryM

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1061 on: November 22, 2019, 10:40:33 AM »
There was one locally when I first moved here. Haven't heard of them for at least 10 years. :-\
Terry

sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1062 on: November 28, 2019, 12:50:36 AM »
How the sausage is made: Sachs at project syndicate on the rape of pakistan


" a $5.9 billion award against Pakistan’s government in favor of two global mining companies for an illegal project that was never approved or carried out."

" the Pakistan Supreme Court found that the JV’s terms violated Pakistan’s mining and contract laws in several ways and declared the agreement – and thus the rights claimed by TCC – to be null and void."

"the so-called international rule of law enables rich companies to exploit poor countries with impunity and disregard their laws and courts. "

"When TCC lost its case in Pakistan’s Supreme Court, it simply turned to the World Bank’s International Center for the Settlement of Investment Disputes (ICSID), in complete disregard of Pakistan’s laws and institutions. A panel of three arbitrators with no expertise in or respect for Pakistan’s legal system ruled that TCC deserved compensation for all future profits that it allegedly would have earned if the non-existent project, based on a voided agreement, had gone forward!"

" the ICSID panel arbitrarily decided that TCC would have had the right to mine 1,000 square kilometers, though the mining law forbade licensing such a vast area. The arbitrators ruled that TCC would have received a tax holiday for 15 years, even though there is no evidence that such a tax holiday was in the offing – or even legal. The arbitrators decided that TCC would have benefited from a royalty rate several percentage points below the mandatory statutory rate, though there is no reason why Pakistan would have set such a low rate."

"The arbitrators also ruled that TCC would have met all environmental standards, or that the government would have exempted TCC from relevant requirements, though the mining area is in a desert region subject to extreme water stress, and the mining project would have demanded vast amounts of water. And the arbitrators ruled that to obtain the land needed for TCC’s pipeline, the government would have taken it from its owners and inhabitants."

"Pakistan must compensate TCC in full, with back interest, and cover its legal fees, raising the bill to $5.9 billion, or roughly 2% of Pakistan’s GDP. It is more than twice Pakistan’s entire public spending on health care for 200 million people, in a country where 7% of children die before their fifth birthday. For many Pakistanis, the World Bank’s arbitration ruling is a death sentence. "

"One of the tribunal members in the TCC case is using the same expert put forward by TCC for another case in which the arbitrator is acting as counsel! When challenged about this obvious conflict of interest, the arbitrator refused to step down "

Read and weep:

https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/world-bank-corrupt-arbitration-ruling-against-pakistan-by-jeffrey-d-sachs-2019-11

This is an abscenity. Even apart of the hideous immorality of  looting an impoverished nation, pressuring a nuclear power already destabilized by decades of war on it's border is not a sane action. The lords of capital cannot see beyond their greed.

sidd

TerryM

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1063 on: November 28, 2019, 03:54:40 PM »

^^

I wonder if the World Bank could be enticed to refuse our offer to mine its databases. Seems as though we would have made a few B$ in the endeavour.


We'd have president on our side when we demanded arbitration, but we could probably settle with them, if proper compensation was forthcoming. ::)


It's only gambling when either side can win. This is robbery.
Terry

blumenkraft

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1064 on: December 01, 2019, 01:22:20 PM »
America is not the land of the free but one of monopolies so predatory they imperil the nation

Quote
... The EU is sclerotic, undynamic, stifled by quasi-socialist red tape, and hostile to insurgent startups. It is so degenerate it cannot even defend itself – as Trump will undoubtedly remind its leaders over the next two days.

...

Except the latest research demonstrates the reverse is true.

...

Britain is about to make a vast mistake.

...

When firms dominate a sector, they invest and innovate less, they peg or raise prices, and they make super-normal profits by just existing (what economists call “economic rent”).

...

This monopolising process gums up everything. Investment in the US has been falling for 20 years. Because prices stay high, wages buy less, so workers’ lifestyles, unless they borrow, get squeezed in real terms while those at the top get paid ever more with impunity. Inequality escalates to unsupportable levels. Even life expectancy is now falling across the US.

...

In Europe, the reverse is true. It is much harder for companies to buy friendly regulators. ... As a result, it is Europe, albeit with one or two laggards such as Italy, that is bit by bit developing more competitive markets, more innovation and more challenge to incumbents while at the same time sustaining education and social spending so important to ordinary people’s lives.

Even starting up businesses is now easier. France is generating multiple hi-tech startups, with unemployment falling. Parts of Paris, Barcelona, Amsterdam or even Milan are now rivalling San Francisco’s Bay area.

The EU’s regulations are better thought out, so in industry after industry it is becoming the global standard setter. Its corporate governance structures are better. And last week, to complete the picture, Christine Lagarde, the incoming president of the European Central Bank, in the most important pronouncement of the year, said the environment would be at the heart of European monetary policy. In other words, the ECB is to underwrite a multitrillion-euro green revolution. In short – bet on Europe not the US.

Link >> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/01/america-is-not-the-land-of-the-free-but-one-of-monopolies-so-predatory-they-imperil-the-nation
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1065 on: December 01, 2019, 02:20:50 PM »
blumenkraft:
Well, except for America, I would like Europe to come out on top more than any other region of the world.
SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

blumenkraft

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1066 on: December 01, 2019, 02:31:20 PM »
I think it will be China who's 'coming out on top' sooner or later.

What does this mean exactly? I have no idea. But nothing to be sacred scared of IMHO. After all, the arrogant western narratives could use some refreshing.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2019, 03:46:05 PM by blumenkraft »
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1067 on: December 01, 2019, 02:35:59 PM »
Quote
But nothing to be sacred off IMHO
Do you mean the West considers its dominance to be sacred?
SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

blumenkraft

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1068 on: December 01, 2019, 03:35:58 PM »
In NAZI-America, protesters are deemed rioters.

Protesters Charged With 'Felony Rioting' In War On Free Speech

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blumenkraft

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1069 on: December 01, 2019, 03:45:05 PM »
Do you mean the West considers its dominance to be sacred?
Damn, typo! Sorry.

Should be "scared".
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kassy

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1070 on: December 01, 2019, 04:13:47 PM »
Well China is pretty scary. You post something critical on Weibo and the next thing you know you have restricted travel on long distance rail services.

We as westerners should be much more critical toward our systems. The problem is that we elect people on some bland talking point like scary foreigners and economic that never emerge.

Then the laws are technical and we are just dumb voters so we do not participate there but the paid lobbying interests do.

The idea that the US is the protector of the free world is a lie see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change

I am still not that sure about the EU but...

Could we think of things we all want and want to share with all?
Simple things. We would all enjoy affordable health care.
We would all enjoy to retire after a working life.
We would all like to have our kids enjoy that too.

There is more of course when you go into details but you do not get to vote on that factory in your neighborhood or things like that. Or vote if we actually care to bomb some distant country.

People should be much more critical towards the systems that rule them.
Yeah you get to vote again but people consider it like choosing from a menu a restaurant. This is ofc worse with binary choice.

If you like cooking you see there are many more options. If you are passionate about all the options around you can see the chance to grow other stuff to make very different dishes.

But consumerism prefers the takeaway.

Democracy is not only the easiest choice you get (voting on someone).
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

El Cid

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1071 on: December 01, 2019, 09:24:24 PM »
blumenkraft:
Well, except for America, I would like Europe to come out on top more than any other region of the world.

I agree, but won't happen due to terrible politics..

anyway, Europe is the best continent for life-quality by far (maybe we could also include  Canada and Aus/NZ but nothing else even comes close).

blumenkraft

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1072 on: December 02, 2019, 06:51:55 PM »
Wait, what?

Wat?

You do know what the word 'Europe' refers to, don't you?  ;D
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sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1073 on: December 03, 2019, 06:30:01 AM »
Hutton reviews Phillipon at the guardian: economic monopolies have bought the government in the USA

"both at federal and state level ever higher campaign donations are correlated with ever fewer actions against monopoly, price fixing and bad corporate behaviour. "

Philippon argues the EU is superior:

". It is much harder for companies to buy friendly regulators. The EU’s competition authorities are much more genuinely politically independent than those in the US"

"The EU’s regulations are better thought out, so in industry after industry it is becoming the global standard setter. Its corporate governance structures are better"

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/01/america-is-not-the-land-of-the-free-but-one-of-monopolies-so-predatory-they-imperil-the-nation

sidd


sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1074 on: December 03, 2019, 07:22:25 AM »
It has often been said that economists became envious of physics. Unfortunately, this did not motivate them to study physics. Rather, it seems to have led to cargo-cult behaviour where economists used the mathematical tools of physics, but with no care as to whether those tools were fit for the purpose. The results, as we see, are horrible and obvious.

Here is one case study of a blunder from 1738 by a Bernoulli, corrected by Laplace in 1814, yet perpetuated as received  wisdom in 1934 by an economist. And as far as economics is concerned,it remains received wisdom to this day.

I have previously posted about a 2016 paper by Peters and Gell-Mann:

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1308.msg69591.html#msg69591

[1] Evaluating gambles using dynamics, Chaos 26, 023103 (2016)
doi: 1054-1500/2016/26(2)/023103/9

that exposes the blunder. I see now that Peters has had no mercy, and with others has published several more papers on the subject since then.

Dynamics of  inequality, Adanou et al. 2016
doi:10.1111/j.1740-9713.2016.00918.x
https://rss.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1740-9713.2016.00918.x

An evolutionary advantage of cooperation, Peters et al., 2018
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1506.03414.pdf

The time interpretation of expected utility theory, Peters et al. 2018,
https://arxiv.org/abs/1801.03680

Most recently:

doi: 10.1038/s41567-019-0732-0
The ergodicity problem in economics, Nature Physics volume 15, pages1216–1221(2019)

in which they actually do an experiment to show that real people behave completely differently than economists would have us believe

and

Wealth Inequality and the Ergodic Hypothesis:  Evidence from theUnited States Berman et al.
https://ssrn.com/abstract=2794830

Peters and cohorts use the Piketty, Saez, Zucman data among other data sets to show that the appropriate model is geometric Brownian motion and the consequences thereof, including the growth of wealth inequality, reallocation rates set by governments from the rich to the poor, cooperation as a way of spreading risk,  which are very interesting in and of themselves. But there is a larger point that i see.

The ergodic hypothesis, brutally put, states that the time average is equal to the ensemble average. This is, as Peters exhaustively shows, not the case in many economic settings. But more important, why would economists fall into such error ?

The error expresses as the belief that people maximize the _expectation value_ of future utility, as though they were competing against a version of themselves across a multiverse of outcomes on the same gamble and maximizing the expectation across the multiverse. This is sorta as though on every gamble, you could go back and roll the dice again across every possible outcome, and then choose the strategy that best maximized the expectation across all those outcomes.

What people really (and more sensibly) do is look at the time average of their future trajectory instead across repeated gambles. And these are not at all the same.

In short, economists imagine that we compete with putative versions of ourselves ... based on an error corrected two centuries ago ...

Perhaps economists believe this because they know that exposing the causes and remedies of extortionate inequality might endanger their income ... as in the documentary "Inside Job" ? O wait, that actually happened.

sidd

nanning

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1075 on: December 09, 2019, 11:44:49 AM »
We’ve crunched the numbers – nationalisation would be a bargain
  by David Hall

(David Hall is a visiting professor and former director of the Public Services International Research Unit at the University of Greenwich)


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/09/numbers-public-ownership-uk-utilities-nationalisation

Ignore claims about crippling levels of compensation: public ownership would pay for itself within seven years


 Quotes:
Our research at the University of Greenwich, however, shows first that these benefits are large and provide excellent returns for any plausible estimates of compensation. Second, it shows that many claims about the level of compensation and its impact are based on errors about the law and about the identity of shareholders.

the most easily quantifiable benefits come from not having to pay out dividends to private shareholders or high interest rates on private debt.  These savings would amount to about £8bn per year across all sectors:
[i.e. water,electricity,gas,telecom,mail,PFI]

egional and local economies and households would get a substantial boost from this. Whether the savings are used to reduce prices or to increase public investment, the money would remain in the local economy rather than being sucked out by international finance, and would be spread fairly equally around the country because we all use these utilities

There would be other benefits. Efficiency gains would be made from eliminating the bureaucratic transaction costs of contracting between different companies, especially in sectors that have been “unbundled” such as rail or energy. So, for example, universal provision of broadband could be done considerably more efficiently and cheaply through a public sector monopoly – £20bn as compared with £32bn if we relied on “incentivising” private investors. We would also gain proper public control and accountability, and be much better able to rapidly implement renewable energy policies to deal with the climate crisis, and develop the green economy with long-term planning for jobs and training.
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nanning

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1076 on: December 09, 2019, 11:58:56 AM »
As a follow-up from my last post:



Everybody who opposes ESLD (erring on the side of least drama) is called an alarmist by ESLD people. To not be an alarmist means your brain doesn't work properly or you are not informed.

We need drama. Radical dramatic system change to mitigate AGW and drastically lower emissions, habitat loss, biocides etc.

PROBLEM:
For this, consumerism needs to stop!
Commercial temptation and manipulation need to stop!


SOLUTION (first steps):
  • Ban all advertisements and branding.
  • Ban all private cars so people will have to be close to each other again in free-to-use shared public transport.
  • Introduce a public government channel where facts and truths about the state of the world and the risks to society are discussed with a scientific basis. Not just climate and biosphere but also humanities and child psychology and physical skills etc. Inform and stimulate critical thinking and ethics/morality.
    Add important and good and beautiful documentaries, and make more. Inform with only a little entertainment.
    Heavily subsidise investigative journalism.
  • Nationalisation of utilities, media and financial institutions.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome

kassy

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1077 on: December 09, 2019, 02:20:39 PM »
Nice article in #1075

The same argument has been made for our dutch ensurers interesting to see it generalizes so well.

Your solutions in 1076 are not very practical (point 2 would require rebuilding our infrastructure, point 3 is not a thing governments do, it is always spin in some way or other. Promoting critical thinking (or good quality general education) is not high on their priorities and ethics/morality is usually nowhere to be seen.

Having a realistic carbon tax on anything would be a good first step.
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nanning

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1078 on: December 09, 2019, 03:58:23 PM »
Nice response kassy, but it is imperative that consumerism ends as soon as possible. I am not the first to suggest this.

I think fiddling within the same commercial markets system is postponing radical change and we don't have time. We need radical change and real leadership now.

Our current leaders are incapable of being real leaders of transformation/transition. They're afraid of making big hard decisions. They have a short-term view only. Those politicians are not leaders. They are manipulators, liars and servants, and they try to outsource all responsibility.

If enough of people are convinced drastic action is necessary (through personal experience or other), only then is there any chance of change. Of giving a mandate for radical change.

My solutions are real solutions, they just don't fit in the systems and thinking of consumerism, market capitalist economist culture, media, education and powerful people.
Children and youth are not in that thinking bubble and have better long term view.

A carbon tax is not radical change. My earlier suggestion could work (carbon tax in 3 years $500, $1000, $5000 p.tonneCO2) but grown-ups will again say that that's not possible. Aaarrrgg. System change. error error. buffer overflow. computer says no. Let the 'other' people suffer.
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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1079 on: December 09, 2019, 04:26:55 PM »
It might be imperative but the problem is that we have a majority of trained consumers. They are not going to vote for that or fight for that.
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nanning

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1080 on: December 09, 2019, 05:43:38 PM »
Why not? Don't the grown-ups see the emergency?

edit: and don't they see the 'other' people suffering?
changed "they" to "grown-ups"
« Last Edit: December 09, 2019, 06:04:52 PM by nanning »
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1081 on: December 09, 2019, 06:02:13 PM »
Why not? Don't they see the emergency?
No.
SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

nanning

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1082 on: December 09, 2019, 06:05:27 PM »
Thank you for your contribution Tom.
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blumenkraft

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1083 on: December 09, 2019, 06:10:15 PM »
Why not? Don't they see the emergency?

edit: and don't they see the 'other' people suffering?

You can choose to look away. It's deliberate and evil to do so but it's perfectly legal and completely socially accepted.

You know, Nanning, i am used to being the weirdo so i never had a problem being the weirdo for pointing out the obvious also.

I think it must be hard on neurotypical people who see and chose to look. Stay strong my friend.


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nanning

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1084 on: December 09, 2019, 06:22:12 PM »
Thanks :) you too. And you understand (from your words), so I see you as neurotypical in this ;).

Why is it, that youth see the emergency and grown-ups don't? I thought the grown-ups are 'wiser'  ::). WHAT DOES THIS SAY?
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1085 on: December 09, 2019, 06:48:58 PM »
Judge not the old. Judge the intellectually lazy ones.
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kassy

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1086 on: December 09, 2019, 07:38:00 PM »
We get spoiled somewhere. Trained to appreciate other stuff.

3 year olds are amazing at solving problems because they have their priorities sorted. I was a bit homeless then at the second stage (fixing stuff) i ended up playing with my best friends daughter who had caught a bit of the story. She was 3.

Bear does not have a home anymore she said so we build him one. She had these ever bigger then duplo blocks. So we build a home and i tried not to cry out loud and i just about managed.

You can generalize this in many ways. If society gives homeless people homes that costs less than policing some open festering sore. 

Preventing problems is much better then fixing them but powerful interests are bending society in different ways (research the 3 strikes law in the US fe). The whole tragedy is that we vote puppets and have no input on the actual laws while lobbyists have straight access so it is profit for some assholes and costs for society.
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nanning

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1087 on: December 09, 2019, 07:49:02 PM »
Thank you kassy for that story, your empathy and high morality.

I had this just written before reading your post:


It seems to me that on average youth/children are a lot more open, enthousiastic, colourful, empathic, more physical (touching etc) and intimate, more laughing, more outside, more critical and more free than grown-ups.
In rich countries youth are used to public shared transport whilst most grown-ups shiver at the idea. WHY IS THAT?

Youth/children are more free because they don't have accumulated wealth, can't drive a private car etc. and haven't yet enslaved themselves to the grown-up's insane culture.

My view is expert because I am not a grown-up because I never acquiesced to grown-up culture, and have observed/analysed the transition from youth to grown-up for decades. They break the connection by acquiescing to grown-up culture. To try to fit in, to belong. I have an unbroken connection with nanning @27yo @15yo @11yo @4yo. Difficult to explain.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome