Support the Arctic Sea Ice Forum and Blog

Author Topic: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”  (Read 56202 times)

TerryM

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6002
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 902
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #150 on: December 25, 2017, 09:44:35 AM »
Hi Terry, While I don't run an air sourced heat pump presently- because it is too expensive to purchase- the Energy Solutions Branch of the Yukon government reckons they are the most efficient source of electric heating down to minus 20.
Even here, the temperature is above minus 20 most of the time (it's minus 34 right now tho!).
Ground source heat pumps don't work at here because the ground is too cold- even where it escapes being permafrost.
Sebastion
Sounds as though ground source will not work everywhere!


Was it the 2013 report you were referencing?


http://www.energy.gov.yk.ca/pdf/air_source_heat_pumps_final_may2013_v04.pdf


You might want to read the bottom of the 14th page:


For example, a cost savings assessment in Minnesota has shown that many users of ASHPs actually experienced an increase in electricity consumption because of system inefficiencies (Brown et al, 2011). The performance of ASHPs in cold climates is further reduced by the need for defrosting in temperatures as “warm” as ‐4°C (Lu Aye, 2003).. For example, a cost savings assessment in Minnesota has shown that many users of ASHPs actually experienced an increase in electricity consumption because of system inefficiencies (Brown et al, 2011). The performance of ASHPs in cold climates is further reduced by the need for defrosting in temperatures as “warm” as ‐4°C (Lu Aye, 2003).
-My bold-
The report was based on questioning 6 heat pump users


three respondents reported that their heating costs dropped less than expected, one participant wasn’t sure what their savings were and one reported that savings wasn’t a factor in their satisfaction with the system. In one case the repair costs to the installed ASHP were considered sufficient to render any savings moot.


On page 9 it's noted that all but one supplemented their heating with either wood or oil.


It appears to me that while they noted the inefficiencies imposed by the Carnot cycle, they ignored the losses that the defrost cycle imposes. It might be noted on page 7 that the most efficient unit they chart supplements the January heat pump output of 1,359 kWh with 2,066 kWh of resistance heating. I feel that the 2,066 figure would be much higher if defrost had been included, but the text only mentions defrost in the sentence that I'd copied above.


While it's certainly possible to pull usable heat from extremely low ambient temperatures, my experience in desert conditions indicates that the long defrost cycles required make doing so impractical.
Please ask around before plunking your money down. I'm not selling anything and I applaud all efforts to slow down Arctic ice losses.


Terry


« Last Edit: December 25, 2017, 09:49:46 AM by TerryM »

TerryM

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6002
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 902
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #151 on: December 25, 2017, 10:18:16 AM »
Quote
It's not that  a heat pump unit isn't capable of heating an interior at below zero temperatures, rather that the built in resistive heat strips, which run along with the compressor whenever the unit is in defrost, increase the wattage until any savings over straight resistive heating has been lost.

No, Terry.  Current heat pumps do not need resistive heating until temperatures drop below 17F/-8C.  That is significantly lower than freezing. 

The world of 2017 is not the world of 2004.  A big improvement in heat pump performance/design happened less than five years ago.


Lennox reports that their units begin their defrost cycles at 45 F


https://www.lennox.com/lib/legacy-res/pdfs/heat_pump_guide.pdf


page 4


Still sounds like 2004 to me.
Ask yourself what temperature it is when ice begins to form. Recognize that the outdoor coil must be colder than ambient air or it can't pull heat from that air.


Some units run with gas, or even oil heaters that kick in when in defrost. More efficient than resistance heat, but an additional level of complexity. Very inexpensive units provide no inside heat at all during defrost, but in most applications the interior temperature fluxuations are far too wide.
Terry

TerryM

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6002
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 902
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #152 on: December 25, 2017, 11:39:23 AM »
To -20? Neat! NRCan says -8C. Even that is enough for most of the heating load in most of the world.

(Probably not for Iqaluit though.)


Is this your source?


http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy/publications/efficiency/heating-heat-pump/6831


They do mention that:


Air-source heat pumps will operate with heating seasonal performance factors (HSPFs) that vary from 6.7 to 10.0, depending on their location in Canada and their rated performance. For this booklet, we have identified three regions where it would be viable to use air-source heat pumps. The first region is the West Coast, characterized as mild with high heat pump performance. The second region – southern Ontario, Nova Scotia and interior British Columbia – is colder, and requires a heat pump with higher performance. The third region includes colder regions in British Columbia, Alberta, Ontario, Quebec, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island, and Newfoundland and Labrador. Outside these regions, air-source heat pumps are not as economically attractive.

Which seems to rule out Iqaluit. :(

Their recommendations appear aimed at those supplementing their furnace with a heat pump. Used in this way, with a cut off whenever the temperature drops to near freezing they should prove very economical. This requires no back up heat during defrost since the heat pump is being used to preheat the cool air feeding the furnace.

I couldn't find any mention of -8 C, so perhaps I'm quoting from the wrong paper.

They mention the Canadian invention of a "bivalent" heat pump that uses a gas or propane heater to warm the incoming air going to the outdoor coil. This is new to me.  A hybrid system like this, which essentially raises the ambient and the outdoor coil to above 0C could alleviate defrosting problems, but should such a hybrid be considered an air/air heat pump or is it a gas furnace/air hybrid?

This article explores this technology,

http://oilandenergyonline.com/choose-the-right-heat-pump/

although they soon drift back to using the heat pump as an auxiliary to an existing boiler system.

Interesting idea.
Terry

ghoti

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 767
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 12
  • Likes Given: 15
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #153 on: December 25, 2017, 03:47:35 PM »
The NRCan study of "Cold Climate Air-Source Heat Pumps" cites the -8C:

http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy/funding/current-funding-programs/cef/4965

I tried to get quotes from Ecologix and they told me they weren't actually selling them yet just still installing them in a few homes for testing purposes.

I got a quote for a Mitsubuishi cold climate air-source - the Zuba. They claim it can heat down to -30C which isn't quite good enough here in Ottawa because we have many sub -30C hours every heating season. I was quoted $18,000 and that required some resistance heat boost.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 17725
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 829
  • Likes Given: 307
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #154 on: December 25, 2017, 04:00:51 PM »
Anecdotally....  :)

I have a heat pump — which is not the newest! — and a Nest smart thermostat set to “Max Savings,” which means it does not call for the resistance heat unless it really, really needs to.  (It also means that I am in no rush to get to a particular temperature, and if I am not up and moving around the house, the temperature may slip a bit.  ;) )

It has worked down to 5°F (-15°C) and below to keep the house around 60°F (15°C) without using the resistance heat (as shown by the Nest app’s History page, and my electric bills!)  It’s all about the smarts!

Edit:  Also, because it is connected to the internet, it knows the weather forecast and outside conditions.  If extreme cold is forecast, it will heat the house a bit more in the evening, before the cold sets in, and even revise my overnight temperature offset, so that the unit is not trying to warm up the house so many degrees in the morning when it is the coldest outside.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2017, 04:51:30 PM by Sigmetnow »
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

oren

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 5796
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1949
  • Likes Given: 1720
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #155 on: December 25, 2017, 06:58:10 PM »
Sigmetnow, that's a seriously cool thermostat. (Pun not intended...)

Bob Wallace

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3855
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 43
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #156 on: December 25, 2017, 07:11:50 PM »
Here are my main (non-commercial) data sources.  This is where the 17F/-8C (below freezing) without resistance heating statement comes from.

https://energy.gov/eere/buildings/articles/cold-climate-air-source-heat-pumps-innovative-technology-stay-warm-winter

http://www.neep.org/initiatives/high-efficiency-products/emerging-technologies/ashp/cold-climate-air-source-heat-pump

If you live in a place where the temperature goes below the limits of the heat pump you install then you will need some supplemental heating,  Heat strips inside the unit if your needs are moderate or some higher capacity heating if you live in a place that gets very cold.

But the major point is that in most places one can get all or the majority of their heating needs met by an electric heat pump and avoid using fossil fuels.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 17725
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 829
  • Likes Given: 307
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #157 on: December 25, 2017, 07:44:19 PM »
Sigmetnow, that's a seriously cool thermostat. (Pun not intended...)


I love it!  Nest even did a thing for the big solar eclipse last summer, where you could opt in to release control of your air conditioning setting a little bit during the eclipse, to help reduce energy needs during that time (because of less solar power on the grid, in spots).  (I wasn’t using my AC anyway, but what the hey. :) )  Some connected utilities use the same sort of thing constantly, rewarding people for letting them reduce your heating or cooling a bit when energy demand is high.  I expect that will become the norm.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2017, 11:08:17 PM by Sigmetnow »
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

TerryM

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6002
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 902
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #158 on: December 25, 2017, 09:19:32 PM »
goti
Thanks for the link to the correct publication. :)


Sigmetnow
That's one serious T-Stat!
In Las Vegas the power company offered residential customers a discount it they were allowed to install a remote A/C cutoff which would be activated for a maximum of 15 min./hr. when they were at peak demand.
Went into effect about the same time as Jimmy Carter was subsidizing insulation and may still be in effect.
In practice the problem was that peak demand in Las Vegas was also the very hottest days of summer and the A/C units are sized so that they require 100% of capacity at the very time the power company was shutting them down.
Another problem was that they had thousands of A/C units trying to start at exactly the same instant and the resulting momentary brownout caused many units to fail, requiring the very expensive replacement of compressors - again at precisely the hottest times of the year.
A slightly aged heat pump is still a very good solution in most environments, and it sounds as though you've made trade offs that you can live with as far as energy savings and comfort are concerned. Kudos


Bob


Cutting edge technology is where technical problems can occur. In the Yukon study I'd linked to 1/3 had lost their compressor within the first year & 1/2 within 4 years of the installation. Other less catastrophic problems were rampant.


Sealing the home and lots of insulation should be the first steps taken to cut ff usage. Modern gas packs or gas furnaces are marvels of efficiency and all but one brand are actually quite low tech, and therefore not liable to high maintenance/repair bills.
I won't mention the brand by name, but they run a unique glycol system to extract the last BTU and replacing the very poorly located glycol pump is a very costly, recurring problem.


I'm glad to have learned about the new bivalent systems they're presently testing, but I'd give them a decade after sales are initiated to work the bugs out. They could solve the defrost problem inherent in heat pump design, but tweaking them to work at various temperatures, loads, and humidity levels is going to take some time.


In my California house with high humidity (until the last few seasons), and moderate temperatures, I've rigged the heat pump to cut out at 40 F when the rather aged gas pack takes over. As an absentee landlord this saves on compressor wear, condensate water problems, and provides the tenant with the most reliable heat available at very reasonable energy costs.


If I was living there myself I'd probably experiment by using, (and heating) the swimming pool during the cooling season and tweaking the heat pump to run until at least the first defrost cycle below 40 F. I'd expect noticeable energy savings, especially during the lengthening cooling season, a toasty pool, and lots to tinker with during the year. :)


Terry

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 17725
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 829
  • Likes Given: 307
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #159 on: December 25, 2017, 09:31:50 PM »
Terry,
The Las Vegas project is a good example of needing just a bit more technology to make it work.  Today, the same thing would be accomplished by remotely adjusting the thermostat by a degree or two (or a fraction of a degree).  Compressors would come on as needed, not all at once, and loads could be shed or increased gradually.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

TerryM

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6002
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 902
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #160 on: December 25, 2017, 10:35:42 PM »
Terry,
The Las Vegas project is a good example of needing just a bit more technology to make it work.  Today, the same thing would be accomplished by remotely adjusting the thermostat by a degree or two (or a fraction of a degree).  Compressors would come on as needed, not all at once, and loads could be shed or increased gradually.
Yes
Even having the tech to throttle them individually instead of en mass would be an improvement, but it doesn't address the problem of sizing. Once the air has been off for 15min the units need to work very hard, for a very long time, to get the residence back to the called for temperature. This simply adds to the peak loading problem.


In Southern Nevada hybrid swamp cooler/air conditioner combinations have been tried with some success. Typically the air passes through a cooler pad where evaporating water cools the air prior to it passing through the condenser coils. These save on energy, but use water which is in short supply in most desert regions.
Cooling the high side refrigerant using a swimming pool cuts energy costs even further, and heats your pool, but again the increased evaporation uses additional water.


Commercial kitchens in the valley use large evaporative coolers and many don't mind the much higher humidity that results. The early residents all used evaporative coolers, swamp coolers, to make the heat bearable. I've even seen early refrigerators that relied on water evaporating from canvas sides to keep milk from spoiling in the afternoon heat.


If solar and wind energy prices continue to drop, all of the energy saving but water exploiting technologies will die in the coming droughts.


Ain't life wonderful?
Terry

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 17725
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 829
  • Likes Given: 307
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #161 on: December 27, 2017, 02:22:56 PM »
Quote
Even having the tech to throttle them individually instead of en mass would be an improvement, but it doesn't address the problem of sizing. Once the air has been off for 15min the units need to work very hard, for a very long time, to get the residence back to the called for temperature. This simply adds to the peak loading problem.

But a smart thermostat doesn’t try to regain the previous temperature all at once — only a fraction of a degree at a time.  It knows the outdoor temperature (and the forecast), can calculate how long it has to run the system at a moderate setting to get back to the set temperature — and can even break that up into segmented time periods, if necessary.  If you ask nicely, it will even tell you how long it will take to get back to the normal temperature — my Nest does this. :)  Nest and ultilities which use this technology swear that most people don’t even notice when their HVAC has been overridden.  (I imagine they can rotate system cuts so each building only has a ‘loss’ for a few minutes at a time, depending on how many customers have opted in, and how severe the situation is.)  But you normally have the option of taking control and saying you want more performance, if you need to.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 02:38:37 PM by Sigmetnow »
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

TerryM

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6002
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 902
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #162 on: December 27, 2017, 08:30:36 PM »
Your Nest is a marvel!
I suspect your greatest savings come when your heating or cooling is not maxed out. On the hottest days, or coldest nights you probably want and  need everything your unit can provide, unless the unit is slightly oversized.



One of the problems for Nevada Power is that the State of Nevada considers any HVAC system that will cool a home to 20 F or  ~9 C below ambient as adequate. This may work in some jurisdictions, but in Southern Nevada temperatures often creep close to 120 F, or 49 C and a house being cooled to over 95 F or over 35 C really isn't livable. Many work around this by sealing off bedrooms or other unused rooms to assure that the living areas are truly livable.
Either that or by adding window shakers or additional insolation, which new home buyers complain loudly about.


Since every home builder saves a buck and uses the smallest A/C that meets these requirements, you have vast communities that require all that the A/C can crank out, (and a little bit more) whenever it heats up and the power load peaks.
The program they use is voluntary, but not particularly popular. Most prefer to spend a little more each month and have their A/C available whenever they need it.


If everyone in Las Vegas had a Nest, would it simply move peak energy to some time before peak ambient as each house was being cooled to lower than normal temperatures in anticipation of the coming heat wave?
Terry

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 17725
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 829
  • Likes Given: 307
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #163 on: December 27, 2017, 09:13:40 PM »
Your Nest is a marvel!
I suspect your greatest savings come when your heating or cooling is not maxed out. On the hottest days, or coldest nights you probably want and  need everything your unit can provide, unless the unit is slightly oversized.
...

Yes, on those nights near or below 0°F, it ran almost constantly.  It’s an older unit — I was terrified for it! :o  But we both survived just fine.

Quote

If everyone in Las Vegas had a Nest, would it simply move peak energy to some time before peak ambient as each house was being cooled to lower than normal temperatures in anticipation of the coming heat wave?
Terry

Well, if everyone selected Max. Savings, at least that peak would be smaller! 8)
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Bob Wallace

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3855
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 43
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #164 on: January 26, 2018, 07:54:00 PM »
I'm currently snowed in and wishing I had bought an extra gallon of milk.  Which led me to think about how in Europe milk is on the shelf, not in a refrigerated compartment.  UHT (ultra high temperature) processing and packing allows milk to be stored for at least six months with no refrigeration.

Here in the US and other countries we pasteurize our milk by heating it to 72°C (161°F) for 15 seconds.  Then we keep that milk refrigerated while stored, transported, stocked in stores and after bringing home.

UHT milk is heated above 135 °C (275 °F)  for 1 to 2 seconds.  Then it is stored, transported, stocked and stored at home at room temperature until opened.

Seems like a lot of energy is being used unnecessarily by not going the UHT route.
---

BTW, if you're in need of a US source of UHT milk you can order it online from Dollar Stores (who'd a thunk) and pick it up at your closest DS.  About $1/quart for 1%. 

Next fall I'm putting a case in my pantry.

numerobis

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 837
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 17
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #165 on: January 26, 2018, 08:50:43 PM »
UHT isn't so tasty. For times when I want durable milk, I opt for powdered instead (also not tasty, but a lot lighter and longer-lasting).

Of course, not drinking milk is an even better choice.

Bob Wallace

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3855
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 43
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #166 on: January 26, 2018, 10:06:56 PM »
UHT isn't so tasty. For times when I want durable milk, I opt for powdered instead (also not tasty, but a lot lighter and longer-lasting).

Of course, not drinking milk is an even better choice.

I hadn't given any thought to taste.  At home I buy only fat free (skim) milk and in Europe often end up with 1%.  Additionally, the cereal I eat at home can't be found in the European stores I've visited.  If there's a taste difference then I probably wouldn't have attributed it to processing.

Got me wondering if anyone has done a blind taste test and what the outcome might be.  Found this one...


Quote
Interestingly, we found that despite being a mark of high temperature pasteurization, caramel, cooked flavors were in general preferred by many tasters. In fact, the one big-label brand we included (Organic Valley) took the highest marks in the tasting! (We've included it at the bottom of the ordered rankings below, since it's a nationally available brand.) Could it be that UHT milk is just a flavor that we've gotten used to with all the UHT organic milk on the market these days? It's tough to say, but the fact is, to our surprise, fresh vs. cooked flavor was not as cut and dry as we thought it would be pre-tasting. UHT milk tends to develop a slightly sweeter flavor, due to the breakdown of lactose (a milk sugar) into glucose and galactose during treatment. This sweetness might play a large role in our taster's preference.

There's also another factor that may figure into it: seasonal variance. Because the weather shifts so drastically in New York State from summer to winter, the quality and flavor of milk can show similar seasonal trends. Dean Sparks of nymilk told us that "A meaningful shift occurs in late May. Cows are back on pasture (after a winter of eating dry hay) and the lush, moist pasture is full of nutrients and what cows believe is similar to a five course meal at Per Se." He notes that this is the best time to make butter, as the milk is richer and peaking in flavor.

It's quite possible that had we conducted our tasting in the late spring or midsummer when cows are being fattened on natural forage, the results of this tasting might have been completely different. Maybe a rematch is in order in a few months.


http://drinks.seriouseats.com/2011/04/taste-test-local-new-york-milk-ronnybrook-battenkill-valley-milk-thistle-organic-valley.html

And another, more rigorous study that found ...

Quote
Aseptic (UHT) scored from 5.4 to 6.0. Pasteurized scored 6.4 to 6.6, meaning all aseptic and pasteurized milk scored in the pre-determined "acceptable" range. Pasteurized and aseptic milk were most closely rated in the skim category, where there was no significant difference in the scores between the two skim milks.

Purchase intent for aseptic milk scored close to that for pasteurized. 45.1% of those surveyed stated an intent to purchase the aseptic steam skim milk based on product, versus 51.6% for pasteurized skim milk.

Lower fat content aseptic products scored particularly well. 35.7% of skim milk consumers stated a preference for the aseptic product. The study indicates that consumers' perceived higher levels of smoothness and thickness in aseptic milk led to increased liking and preference scores, particularly with aseptic skim product.

https://www.foodonline.com/doc/consumers-warming-up-to-taste-of-aseptic-milk-0001

I do wonder if people scored pasteurized  non-fat free milk higher because that's the taste they are used to?  It would be interesting to replicate the study in a place where people have been using UHT for some extended time.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 7675
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 1037
  • Likes Given: 504
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #167 on: January 26, 2018, 11:27:28 PM »
We drink our milk raw (said to be healthier, because pasteurizing kills off a lot of the good stuff as well), from a local farmer who has a fridge next to the side of the road.   ;)
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Bob Wallace

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3855
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 43
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #168 on: January 27, 2018, 12:12:14 AM »
I grew up on a farm.  Lots of mornings and evenings I milked a couple of cows.

I'm not drinking raw milk.

SteveMDFP

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1702
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 348
  • Likes Given: 23
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #169 on: January 27, 2018, 12:33:50 AM »
We drink our milk raw (said to be healthier, because pasteurizing kills off a lot of the good stuff as well), from a local farmer who has a fridge next to the side of the road.   ;)

But, hey, who's afraid of scrofula?
The Menace of Raw Milk
https://www.jstor.org/stable/41979064?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 17725
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 829
  • Likes Given: 307
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #170 on: January 27, 2018, 03:22:25 PM »
My experience with UHT milk, which I frequently carried when travelling, is that it has a slight metallic aftertaste compared to regular milk (both 1%).  But, I’ve switched to soy milk for everything but cereal (and in a pinch, soy is acceptable for that), so the point may be moot.  The main reason I haven’t switched completely is there are nutrients in cow’s milk not found in soy.  :-\ 

Milk pill, anyone?  Made “efficiently,” from non-cow biologicals, of course!
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Shared Humanity

  • Guest
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #171 on: January 27, 2018, 04:00:04 PM »
Energy efficiency is, quite simply, the most important and necessary approach to solving this crisis. Modern capitalism, the growth that has provided all of the benefits to humanity, relied on harnessing what has become readily available sources of fossil fuels. We need to decouple growth in worldwide GDP from growth in energy consumption, regardless of its source. This will allow renewables to capture a larger share of total energy production much more quickly.

The measure to watch with regards to energy is energy consumption per capita. We have a ways to go.

https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=eg_use_pcap_kg_oe&hl=en&dl=en

Bob Wallace

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3855
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 43
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #172 on: January 27, 2018, 05:52:17 PM »
Efficiency is worthless unless we replace fossil fuel generation with renewable energy.  Even cutting our fossil fuel use by 90% is not adequate, it's got to be 100% or very close to 100%.  We cannot get there with efficiency alone.

What we need is both.  We need to use energy more efficiently so that we can replace fossil fuel faster.  But we need a replacement.  We could get to zero CO2 emissions with renewable energy but we cannot get to zero CO2 emissions with efficiency alone.

Growth is fine.  As long as we grow our economies with renewable energy and sustainable inputs.  We badly need growth in the least developed parts of the world, there's no reason for people to live in abject poverty.

Growth is not our problem.  Our problems, aside from GHG emissions, are the use of unsustainable practices and the concentration of wealth in a tiny percentage of the population.

mitch

  • New ice
  • Posts: 99
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 22
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #173 on: January 27, 2018, 06:06:02 PM »
Why should there only be one solution? Increasing aggregate efficiency by 5% means that the equivalent energy isn't used. If the energy is produced by fossil fuels then those fossil fuels aren't burned.  Efficiency achieves the biggest returns when the energy production is relatively fossil-fuel rich. 

Efficiency also helps renewables, because it means that less energy needs to be replaced by clean sources.

Bob Wallace

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3855
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 43
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #174 on: January 27, 2018, 06:12:06 PM »
Quote
The measure to watch with regards to energy is energy consumption per capita.

The measures to watch with regards to energy are -

a) fossil fuel consumption per capita.  Reduce it.

b) renewable energy consumption per capita.  Increase it.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 17725
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 829
  • Likes Given: 307
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #175 on: March 18, 2018, 03:21:59 PM »
As computers grow bigger and faster, more efficient cooling methods help decrease the amount of energy required to operate them.

”Allied Control’s [liquid-cooled] system uses less than 10 percent of the electricity that would have been required for a conventional air-cooled system.”

The importance of cooling the world's supercomputers
https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/particles/all-articles/article-detail/~how-to-cool-supercomputers-3m-novec-liquid-immersion-cooling/?storyid=870afaa0-8c04-4442-aad7-fece0187fac0
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 17725
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 829
  • Likes Given: 307
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #176 on: March 26, 2018, 04:27:33 PM »
Katharine Hayhoe:

When invited to give a talk, I always ask: "can it be a low-carbon virtual one?"
I often get a "hmm--we've never done that before", but I persevere.
And this week I received the ultimate compliment:
"I thought it would be weird having her on video, but it wasn’t at all."
YAY!
https://twitter.com/KHayhoe/status/978268775341547522

Mary Gagen:
Hi Katherine, could you remind me of the offsetting programme you prefer for necessary travel? I remembered you mentioned it on here a while ago but have lost track of the name!

KH:
Yes - @climatestewards! They are a registered nonprofit or charity in the US, UK and the Netherlands
https://twitter.com/khayhoe/status/978270134111473666
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 17725
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 829
  • Likes Given: 307
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #177 on: May 31, 2018, 03:13:21 AM »
Halogen light bulbs could disappear from Australian stores within two years
Quote
Halogen lights will disappear from Australia within two years, as the industry and federal government pivot towards more efficient and environmentally-friendly LED lighting.

A ban on halogen bulbs, which use four times the energy of LED globes, was announced last month at a meeting of state and federal environment ministers.

The ban is to come into effect from September 2020 but the bulbs could start disappearing from retail stores in as little as 12 months, according to the industry’s peak body, Lighting Council Australia. ...
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/28/halogen-light-bulbs-could-disappear-from-australian-stores-within-two-years
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 17725
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 829
  • Likes Given: 307
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #178 on: June 10, 2018, 02:54:28 PM »
...measure and manage electricity with a level of accuracy and precision far beyond any existing technology, using a cutting-edge application of real-time computing.

3DFS has two core messages, both of which promise to shake up the status quo, not only in the power sector but in our general understanding of electricity.


Quote
First: A close-up, real-time view of electricity reveals that there is a lot more waste happening on the grid than current estimates capture. 3DFS contends that the waste DOE clusters under the nebulous term “conversion losses” is in fact spread out across the grid, in generation, transmission, distribution, and consumption. That’s what their measurements have shown.

In a sense, that’s good news. Some amount of losses are inevitable in the conversion of fuel to steam. But electrical losses on the grid are preventable. Which bring us to ...

Second: Waste on the grid is the result of poor power quality, which can be ameliorated through digital control. Real-time measurement makes that possible. 3DFS technology, which the company conceives of as an “operating system for electricity,” can not only track what’s happening on the electricity sine wave from nanosecond to nanosecond, it can correct the sine wave from microsecond to microsecond, perfectly adapting it to the load it serves, eliminating waste.

The company has an unorthodox plan to grow slowly and organically. But if it can scale its technology up to wide use, across the grid, 3DFS says, it could effectively double the energy efficiency of the electricity system, getting twice the energy services out of the same amount of generation. That would radically hasten both electrification and decarbonization, proving a weapon against climate change at least as potent as renewable energy itself. ...
https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2018/6/5/17373314/electricity-technology-efficiency-software-waste-3dfs
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 17725
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 829
  • Likes Given: 307
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #179 on: June 26, 2018, 05:38:56 PM »
The U.S. Is Losing Ground in the Race for Energy Efficiency
Quote
Italy and Germany tied for first place in the worldwide energy-efficiency race, according to a biennial international scorecard released on Tuesday by the American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy. France, the United Kingdom and Japan followed suit.

The United States fell, from 8th in 2016, to 10th in the new ranking of the 25 largest energy-consuming countries in the world. This shift comes as result of both recent policy changes, including the White House’s decision to pull out of the Paris Climate Agreement, and amendments to the scorecard’s methodology, such as the scoring of residential and commercial building codes.
...
Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates ranked lowest this year. Mexico was the most improved country, jumping from 23rd to 19th, partly due to the country’s recently enacted mandates for energy audits and on-site energy managers in large industrial facilities.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-26/the-u-s-is-losing-ground-in-the-race-for-energy-efficiency
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 17725
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 829
  • Likes Given: 307
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #180 on: September 09, 2018, 04:08:20 PM »
One item that has not been discussed about Elon Musk’s interview with Joe Rogan was a mention of “smart air conditioning” technology that Musk said he couldn’t talk about. :)  I think he mentioned Nest thermostats — which already give you the ability to leave the AC on an efficient setting during the day, then have it start up (in an efficient mode!) by lowering the temperature setting via a phone app as you head home.  (And internet-connected thermostats are likely something many tech-savy Tesla owners already have.)

Some months ago, Musk agreed with the idea of your Tesla being able to notify family members when you get in the car and select “Home” on the navigation screen.  Perhaps Tesla is working with Nest to similarly automate resetting your home thermostat.

Here’s the famous video.  Sorry, I don’t have a time stamp specifically for this topic, but the whole thing is definitely worth your time if you want to see Musk in a wide-ranging, unedited discussion.
[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ycPr5-27vSI
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

jacksmith4tx

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 266
    • View Profile
    • Photon mine
  • Liked: 25
  • Likes Given: 10
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #181 on: September 11, 2018, 02:57:31 PM »
When I switched to solar back in 2012 the first thing I did was look for ways to cut my energy demand to match my energy production. Looking back, the biggest savings came from installing a timer on my electric hot water heater followed by switching to a zoned heating and cooling air conditioning system. But to my surprise I found switching to induction cooking generated oversized savings compared to my older electrical resistance cooking elements on my stove top. First was the efficiency of induction cooking because it directly heats the cooking surface with very precise temperature control. Second, since the heat is directly 'generated' by the cooking utensil (pots, pans griddle etc. even pressure cookers) there is very little waste heat that could put a extra load on my air conditioning. A true Win-Win outcome! The article linked below claimed the replacement costs were several times more expensive than the conventional units but I think that's because commercial units are designed for a much longer life span and have features not found in most residential appliances. My costs were only slightly more expensive than their traditional competitors using resistance heating elements or (dangerous) natural gas.

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/restaurants-can-slash-energy-use-with-electric-induction-technology
Quote
Lab testing “showed a tremendous savings,” he said. Testing confirmed a steam-based system with 18 to 23 pans consumed 10,500 kilowatt-hours of electricity annually. But a replacement electric induction system consumed just 5,100 kilowatt-hours.
 According to Goldstein, the upfront cost of the induction system is five to seven times higher than a comparable steam-based system. But, he said, armed with lab data confirming the 50 percent electricity savings, it was easy to extrapolate the total savings and demonstrate the life-cycle ROI to company executives.

“We were able to show the hard savings in energy and then the soft savings in labor, food quality, and food costs,” he said.

...

David Zabrowski presented a similar case study for another appliance commonly used in commercial kitchens: countertop soup warmers. Standard models use less efficient electric resistance technology to heat water and warm the metal pan.

But, as with steam food-holding pans, because there isn't good feedback on temperature, operators tend to over-correct, and the soup continues to cook inside the container. With an induction soup warmer, the operator can set the desired holding temperature.

Beyond avoided food waste, the induction warmers deliver an average of 65 percent electricity savings. Standard steam-based soup warmers consume 339 watts, compared to just 105 watts for an induction model, said Zabrowski.

He recounted the example of the owner of a new Indian fusion restaurant in San Francisco who had planned to install a dozen electric resistance steam-based soup warmers. But, before opening, the owner switched to electric induction models that together will reduce the restaurant’s electricity bill by $800 annually.

Zabrowski predicted that just as high-efficiency LEDs have taken over the lighting market, induction technology will come to dominate in kitchens.
Science is a thought process, technology will change reality.

etienne

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1001
    • View Profile
    • About energy
  • Liked: 151
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #182 on: September 13, 2018, 06:50:43 PM »
Standards say 30% saving between a new induction and a new electrical cooker. There areo other ways to save electricity when cooking, one being the pressure cooker, but it is also possible to cook recepies with just one pan (stew...), turn off the cooker a few minutes before removing the pan, or have a menu where everything is cooked in the oven... and a lid should be on every pan excepted is evaporation is needed (like for jam). There is also the fireless cooker, it means that  you put the hot pan in an insulated box http://www.cfaitmaison.com/sante/marmite-norvegienne.html (it's in french, but pictures can be understood).

I know it's nonsense, but we were worried with the magnetic fields and bought a standard electrical cooking system when we had to replace our electrical cooker.

When an older system is replaced, the most efficient one is almost all the time the best financial choice, but changing a system that is quite new and works fine usually doesn't bring finacial savings. There are few exceptions which are mainly electrical motors and LED lights where efficiency has improved so much.


etienne

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1001
    • View Profile
    • About energy
  • Liked: 151
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #183 on: September 13, 2018, 06:58:56 PM »
Regarding cooking, I forgot to say that specific devices are usually more efficient than the multifunction pan, but you need to use them regularly otherwise it doesn't make sence. For example if you eat rice every second day, you should get a rice cooker; or if you drink coffee twice a day, you should get a coffee machine. Same thing for steem cooking, for boiling water...

GoSouthYoungins

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1409
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 168
  • Likes Given: 109
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #184 on: September 14, 2018, 06:24:15 AM »
Lurk, he has plenty of idea! Didn't you watch him on Joe Rogan's podcast? My favorite is the electric plane which as Musk explains,"The exciting thing to do would be some sort of electric vertical takeoff and landing supersonic jet of some kind." Cuz you know, phuck fysics. Maybe as it flies it will use the air it displaces and turn it into condensed air, which can later be used to fuse together his boring seismic bricks into an insulated monolithic wall; very green.
big time oops

etienne

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1001
    • View Profile
    • About energy
  • Liked: 151
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #185 on: September 14, 2018, 08:26:44 AM »
I don't know why so many people are against Musk. It is always the problem with new companies, the boss has many ideas, takes a lot of risks, that's what is required to start a new company.

Usually after some times, things go wrong and somebody else takes over the management and the company can continue on a heathier way. The question is how much things go wrong, depending of the answer, the company can stay independent or is integrated in some bigger structure.

Archimid

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3091
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 743
  • Likes Given: 195
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #186 on: September 14, 2018, 04:54:06 PM »
Efficiency really is a wonder. I recommend everyone watches what Musk proposes as an electric flight method. His suggested method is not new, but it is very basic physics. It increases efficiency by refactoring the flight problem. Here is the section of the interview were they discuss electric flight. The conversations lasts only about 3 minutes.

https://youtu.be/ycPr5-27vSI?t=1h15m10s

The problem with battery electric flight is battery energy density. Using current atmospheric flight paradigms most  energy is spent defeating air resistance. Musk suggests that to increase the efficiency of flight the flight pattern is changed.

This is what I think he proposes:

1. The aircraft takes off vertically using electric propulsion method 1. I'm going to assume some type of electric turbine. The top of the surface of the aircraft should be optimized for minimum drag. The vehicle will use most of its battery power to get to the optimum height.

2. Once it reaches optimum height the aircraft activates propulsion method 2, I'll assume some sort of compressed gas thruster. Without air resistance the amount of force required to propel the aircraft is minimal relative to lower atmospheric flight. Once momentum is acquired it barely has to be maintained. The drag coefficient of the sides of the aircraft does not matter.

3. The bottom of the aircraft should be optimized for maximum lift and energy regeneration. As the aircraft loses altitude the bottom of the aircraft provides lift through air resistance and it provides energy regeneration. This should be sufficient to reach the destination safely.

4. Recharge the batteries, re pressurize the gas tanks, take off again.


 I'm sure batteries are not energy dense enough to achieve this today and electric jet and gas thruster technology are certainly not there yet. But to me it sounds like a very efficient way to fly. I think the killer feature of this method is the regeneration of energy when returning to the lower atmosphere to complete the flight.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 06:56:37 PM by Archimid »
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

GoSouthYoungins

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1409
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 168
  • Likes Given: 109
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #187 on: September 14, 2018, 05:18:31 PM »
Stupidity really is a wonder. A battery to lift a plane to 30,000 ft?!? Flight at cruising altitude barely takes any propulsion force?!? Energy regeneration during flight via some contraption on the bottom of the plane?!? LLOL....when your posts aren't espousing dangerous faux-green dead ends, I really do enjoy them
big time oops

etienne

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1001
    • View Profile
    • About energy
  • Liked: 151
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #188 on: September 14, 2018, 06:19:02 PM »
Please don't transform the Policy and solution section in a pro/contra Musk discussion center.
Musk says himself that his plane is nothing for now, which means that there are many issues that are not solved, and not going to be solved soon. It's a nice concept like there use to be many in the french "Science et Avenir" magazine, many good ideas that I read about 30 years ago and that never  became reality.
Musk has many ideas and makes people dream, it's why he can sale his products, but making dreams real is one of the many steps that have to be achieve to reduce CO2. I prefer these dreams than the ones of nuclear power or of geoengineering.
There have been many dreamers in history, and their achievements have in many cases made our world much better.

GoSouthYoungins

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1409
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 168
  • Likes Given: 109
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #189 on: September 14, 2018, 06:45:45 PM »
I don't know why so many people are against Musk.

Some people work for a greener future without lies, deceit, hostility, indignation, subsidies, and self-righteousness.

https://seekingalpha.com/instablog/1017993-bill-maurer/4998156-teslas-growing-failure-list-125-counting

https://elonsbrokenpromises.com/

If you don't want this thread to be littered with Musk, don't take a unfounded/oblivious position...cuz it's hard for ppl not to respond.
big time oops

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 7675
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 1037
  • Likes Given: 504
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #190 on: September 14, 2018, 06:51:37 PM »
I don't like Musk or Green BAU all that much either, but there's nothing unfounded or oblivious about this position:

Quote
Musk has many ideas and makes people dream, it's why he can sale his products, but making dreams real is one of the many steps that have to be achieve to reduce CO2. I prefer these dreams than the ones of nuclear power or of geoengineering.

I still think it's better for Tesla to succeed than to fail, even if it isn't perfect.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

GoSouthYoungins

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1409
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 168
  • Likes Given: 109
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #191 on: September 14, 2018, 07:07:16 PM »
I don't like Musk or Green BAU all that much either, but there's nothing unfounded or oblivious about this position:

Quote
Musk has many ideas and makes people dream, it's why he can sale his products, but making dreams real is one of the many steps that have to be achieve to reduce CO2. I prefer these dreams than the ones of nuclear power or of geoengineering.

I still think it's better for Tesla to succeed than to fail, even if it isn't perfect.

I agree. The oblivious position is not knowing why so many people are against Musk. At this point it requires willful ignorance not to grasp what people object to.
big time oops

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 7675
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 1037
  • Likes Given: 504
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #192 on: September 14, 2018, 08:27:11 PM »
It's also a matter of perception. If the anti-propaganda beats the pro-propaganda, Tesla fails. So, people choose sides. Unfortunately, PR makes up a large part of this whole story.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

GoSouthYoungins

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1409
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 168
  • Likes Given: 109
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #193 on: September 15, 2018, 12:48:28 AM »
It's also a matter of perception. If the anti-propaganda beats the pro-propaganda, Tesla fails. So, people choose sides. Unfortunately, PR makes up a large part of this whole story.

Really? It is not about being able to make quality cars by way of a solid business model? Hmmm....I'm confused.  Wait, I get it, the Tesla bulls realize that Tesla is going to file soon and so there is some preemptive work to frame the failure as a result of too much negativity. Okay.
big time oops

Bruce Steele

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1776
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 432
  • Likes Given: 16
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #194 on: September 15, 2018, 04:26:04 AM »
What we desire and what we will settle for are of course two different things. When you can't keep living the life you've lived because resources have dried up and most of the alternatives will leave you cold and hungry you still have to make a choice. Welcome to life . Maybe we are just running out of resources ?
Genocide would imply someone planned
 such a thing.
A population crash isn't usually planned , not for humans or any other living thing, but it will happen when resources dry up.


What the world needs is good examples of how to live with diminishing resources and a changing climate. Successful examples might not include the comforts we think we are entitled to but desire and what we will settle for are two different things.

It would seem the comment I was responding to has already been deleted. Cool




GoSouthYoungins

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1409
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 168
  • Likes Given: 109
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #195 on: September 15, 2018, 06:57:40 AM »
Efficiency is about having a lifestyle that does not require major energy inputs. It is NOT about having a supercar or any other device that manages to use all of the input to create a superfluous output. DUH. LIKE OMFG DUH.

It has becoming increasingly obvious that minor changes are not what Gaia is asking for. We don't need slightly less polluting methods, we need drastically different lifestyles. It really should not be a mystery why many people don't approve of wealthy virtue-signalling elites parading around in expensive EVs or residing in "passive" McMansions. The idea of no-compromise super solutions has been exposed as such an obvious red herring that even my baby hounds no longer get fooled by the erroneous stench. It's about time those who purport to care about climate change get the whiff.

"I don't understand why more people aren't thanking me for driving my luxury, public-debt-financed super fast toy or cheering for the billionaire fraud Gulfstreaming around to hype his novelties at galas to the rich and famous. IT IS SOOOOO EFFICIENT!"
« Last Edit: September 15, 2018, 07:19:24 AM by GoSouthYoungins »
big time oops

etienne

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1001
    • View Profile
    • About energy
  • Liked: 151
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #196 on: September 15, 2018, 08:50:31 AM »
Eventually people become better informed about the reliability, the value for money, and how fit for purpose a product is or isn't. On that basis they will buy a Tesla or they will not. Irrespective of any opinionated propaganda about Musk, or tesla's finances or perceptions of it's business model.
Just like people buy Iphone because they are so much better than Fairphone https://www.fairphone.com/en/, buy nike shoes because it is just the best price/quality ratio compared to https://subscribe.adbusters.org/products/blackspot, buy Gucci clothes (https://schrondweiler.teemill.com/product/gutt-schi/) because it is just better than fair trade organic cotton (https://rapanuiclothing.com/ or https://www.livingcrafts.de/ or https://www.welovefrugi.com/)...
This is a never ending list, also applies for food (don't trust organic or fairtraide products, when you buy from a major brand, at least you know where the money goes and there are quality controls...) and for all the thing you could think of.

Added after
Sorry for loosing my temper, but the people I know who buy a Tesla do it not because of the car, but because of the image that they get from owning one, and I prefer seeing them buying an EV than an ICE car of a similar price. Tesla is a luxury good (way too expensive for me) and I don't believe in rational thinking when buying luxury goods.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2018, 09:49:02 AM by etienne »

Red

  • Guest
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #197 on: September 15, 2018, 11:43:32 AM »
Everything is bound by the "second law" of thermodynamics. Like gravity it's more than just a fun fact it's the LAW. This is shown by some in ways that attract personal attacks instead of sound theory. Maybe some here can disprove these laws.

http://consciousnessofsheep.co.uk/2018/09/13/the-three-vortices-of-doom/

http://nephologue.blogspot.com/2018/

http://www.inscc.utah.edu/~tgarrett/Economics/Physics_of_the_economy.html

gerontocrat

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 8653
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 3377
  • Likes Given: 25
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #198 on: September 15, 2018, 11:49:31 AM »
Anybody got anything useful to say about energy efficiency?

Why is it that polemicists have never heard of the word précis ?

Do you know the quantity of resources consumed by a dog in an OECD country compared with a child in the Favelas and Katchi Abadis of the world?
_______________________________________________________________________
Polemic

A polemic is contentious rhetoric that is intended to support a specific position by aggressive claims and undermining of the opposing position. Polemics are mostly seen in arguments about controversial topics. The practice of such argumentation is called polemics
________________________________________________________________________
In Pakistan especially in the cities thousands of people live in “Katchi Abadis” meaning “Raw Settlements”.

The Katchi Abadi is in fact a collection of temporary huts made from wood such as branches of trees and the use of tin foil as roofs. The area in which the poor people live is called “Jhuggis” meaning poor neighborhood or slum. And the actual dwelling is called “Jhonpra” meaning a Hut.

The living conditions in these Katchi Abadis does not support life and those who are living in slum areas are vulnerable to unhygienic environment and extreme weather conditions. They are deprived people who do not have enough resources to maintain the health of their children.
_____________________________________________________________________________
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

jacksmith4tx

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 266
    • View Profile
    • Photon mine
  • Liked: 25
  • Likes Given: 10
Re: Energy Efficiency: The “First Fuel”
« Reply #199 on: September 23, 2018, 09:07:58 PM »
Speaking from experience, switching from a whole house HVAC system to a zoned heating and cooling system was the single biggest factor in reducing my yearly electricity use. Now a company has introduced a retrofit system of replacement air vents that can achieve much the same thing with the added benefit of it being able to adapt it's behavior based the home owner's life style, daily schedule and ambient weather conditions.
https://aithority.com/machine-learning/introducing-alea-air-an-intelligent-vent-system-for-room-by-room-climate-comfort-improved-air-quality-and-substantial-reduction-in-home-energy-usage/

Quote
Alea Air™: An Intelligent Vent System For Room-by-Room Climate Comfort, Improved Air Quality, and Substantial Reduction in Home Energy Usage
Energy-harvesting smart vent is first to control both comfort and air quality in buildings

Alea, a smart home technology company disrupting home and office climate control, is unveiling its intelligent air management platform called Alea Air. Alea Air transforms basic HVAC systems by replacing standard registers with smart vents that track and adjust temperature, monitor air quality, and sense other environmental variables. The Alea Air platform uses machine learning and predictive analytics to dynamically allocate air based on users’ room-by-room temperature preferences.
...
Alea has developed a system that consists of DIY-installable, state of the art vents that are loaded with 11 sensors, robotic louvers, and an innovative energy-harvesting unit. Vents work together, via a cloud-enabled, machine learning system that analyzes data and sends instructions to vents based on room-by-room preferences, weather forecasts, occupancy, room size and orientation, and time of day. The system generates a thermal profile of the entire home, allowing it to run central heating and cooling systems (which typically account for over 50 percent of home energy expenses) at far higher efficiency, saving money and conserving energy.
...
Alea Air incorporates a host of sensors to construct an accurate model of rooms’ thermal profile and airflow throughout the home:

    Infrared sensors to accurately track temperature in each room
    Air quality sensors to measure volatile organic compounds
    UV and ambient light sensors for room environment monitoring
    Pressure sensors to monitor static pressure in the ductwork and protect HVAC systems from air pressure damage
    Humidity sensors to accurately measure moisture and ‘feels like’ air temperature
    Audio sensors to monitor and eliminate annoying “whistling” sounds
    Bluetooth and long-range wireless for easy setup and reliable long-range connectivity to a central AirhubTM.

The Alea Air starter kit, which includes three vents and the connectivity AirhubTM can be preordered today for an introductory price of $379. Additional vents can be ordered for $119 each, for a limited time. The Alea Air system is controlled by an innovative smartphone application that allows room-by-room temperature preferences, air quality monitoring, and remote access.

This seems to do everything the other smart thermostats like "Nest" do plus a whole lot more.
Science is a thought process, technology will change reality.