Support the Arctic Sea Ice Forum and Blog

Author Topic: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution  (Read 162889 times)

Archimid

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1556
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 66
  • Likes Given: 94
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1050 on: November 22, 2018, 02:12:54 AM »
I agree. It is not as simple as "gravity", but the host of problems that must be solved before we can even change the trajectory of asteroids made the answer of "gravity" good enough. At least back then. Now with reusable rockets a reality and access to space becoming cheaper before the turn of  the decade it may be worth giving it a few whirls. 

The right approach seems to be securing propellant. They are looking for water in asteroids to convert to fuel, but if they can land on an asteroid even throwing asteroid pieces on the opposite direction they want to travel at high enough speeds might do the trick.

If they can change the orbit of the asteroid towards earth, then slowing down, fitting the asteroid with thermal protection and find it a suitable spot to crash into might be doable. The trick is not to carry the propellant from Earth, but to somehow get from space.

And remember, asteroid crashes are 100% natural.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

Archimid

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1556
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 66
  • Likes Given: 94
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1051 on: November 22, 2018, 02:14:54 AM »
Ken Feldman, I think you have the most likely solution to the problem. Between more efficient resource extraction, recycling and chemistry changes battery resources should not become a huge problem for decades.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

Tor Bejnar

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2194
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 91
  • Likes Given: 25
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1052 on: November 22, 2018, 02:20:50 AM »
Thanks, you all, for this discussion on material costs in a greatly expanding market.  (Not that I'm attempting to end it.)
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 13231
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 156
  • Likes Given: 90
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1053 on: November 22, 2018, 04:58:22 PM »
Australia:  Labor will subsidise 100,000 household batteries, and aim to help one million more households have battery systems by 2025 if it wins the next federal election.

Labor's $15 billion energy investment
Quote
"The beauty of the batteries is that the energy is going to be there when you need it not just when the sun is shining," Mr Shorten told the Nine Network.
...
The Smart Energy Council estimates new household battery systems could help homes save more than 60 per cent on their power bills.

They would also reduce peak demand in the electricity grid and improve the grid's reliability.
https://www.news.com.au/national/breaking-news/labor-ready-to-unveil-energy-policy/news-story/7d3fb8916b7b9e2f427f0e6ac3c3c23c
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

gerontocrat

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3852
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 401
  • Likes Given: 8
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1054 on: November 30, 2018, 09:03:52 PM »
Surprised TESLA not blowing the trumpet on this... big batteries rule, OK.

And meanwhile the lunatic Aussie right-wing Federal Government is still mounting a rearguard action against all things renewable despite being hammered in recent state government  elections and a total humiliation in the by-election in the constituency of their recently defenestrated Prime Minister. Sort of the US in miniature.

https://reneweconomy.com.au/tesla-big-battery-turns-one-celebrates-50-million-in-grid-savings-95920/
Tesla big battery turns one, celebrates $50 million in grid savings
Quote
The Tesla big battery in South Australia on Friday celebrates its first anniversary since swinging into action on November 30 last year – a day before its official opening.

In that period, the 100MW/129MWh Tesla big battery – officially known as the Hornsdale Power Reserve – has defied the critics and naysayers and proved that it can make money, lower prices and boost grid security. More than that, it has become a major signpost to the future of faster, cheaper, smarter and cleaner grid.

What is already known is most of those savings have been achieved by smashing the cartel of gas generators that was controlling prices in the FCAS market.

The battery’s presence means that a network constraint imposed in South Australia that was repeatedly rorted by those generators is no longer needed.or imposed.

More importantly, the success of the battery has paved the way for other installations. Another two batteries in Victoria – at the Gannawarra solar farm (Tesla) and the Ballarat network hub (Fluence) have nearly completed commissioning, and a third is soon to join at the Wattle Point wind farm in South Australia.

Then a  third wave will emerge at the Kennedy (Tesla), Lake Bonney (Tesla), Lincoln Gap (Fluence), Bulgana (Tesla) and Snowtown wind and solar projects. UK billionaire Sanjeev Gupta has big plans for an even bigger battery near Whyalla, and batteries at Newman and Alice Springs have proved their worth in supporting diesel and gas generators and slashing fuel costs.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

gerontocrat

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3852
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 401
  • Likes Given: 8
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1055 on: December 04, 2018, 07:09:04 PM »
Meanwhile, in France (and its oversea territories), real movement on big battery /grid stabilisation systems plus solar/wind power.

It looks like President Macron's government is doing one thing right, at least.

https://www.energy-storage.news/news/neoens-6mwh-france-battery-system-is-preparation-for-new-breed-of-storage-a

Quote
Neoen’s 6MWh France battery system is preparation for ‘new breed’ of storage arriving in Europe
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 13231
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 156
  • Likes Given: 90
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1056 on: December 04, 2018, 08:30:41 PM »
Australia

Tesla's giant 'Virtual Power Plant' made of 50k homes and Powerwalls enters 2nd phase
Quote
Tesla’s ambitious plan to establish a 250 MW/650 MWh “Virtual Power Plant” in South Australia is moving to its second phase. In an announcement last week, Minister for Energy and Mining Dan van Holst Pellekaan stated that initiatives are now underway to install Powerwall 2 home battery units and solar panels to another 1,000 Housing SA properties.

The proposed Virtual Power Plant was conceived by Tesla and South Australia’s former Labor government earlier this year. The project is undoubtedly ambitious, involving 50,000 connected homes, each fitted with a 13.5 kWh Tesla Powerwall 2 battery and a 5 kW rooftop solar system. The 50,000 houses are expected to deliver 250 MW of solar energy and 650 MWh of battery storage capacity. Just like Tesla’s Powerpack farm in South Australia, the VPP will be capable of providing additional grid stability by shifting demand away from a stressed grid during peak hours.

The first phase of the project, which involved the installation of batteries and solar panels to the first 100 houses of the VPP, has been successful so far. Households that are part of the existing system have reported a 70% reduction in their grid consumption, leading to lower power bills. With the first trial phase done, Tesla and solar retail partner Energy Locals are now looking to add 1,000 more households to the system.
...
If the second phase of the Virtual Power Plant proves successful, the third, most ambitious phase of the project will commence. Provided that funding for the estimated AU$800 million ($628 million) project is secured, the system would grow to 50,000 homes over the next few years. When complete, the 50,000-strong Virtual Power Plant is expected to deliver 250 MW of solar energy and 650 MWh of battery storage capacity, dwarfing the highly successful Hornsdale Power Reserve near Jamestown, which has a 100MW/129MWh capacity.

Watch Tesla’s teaser for the South Australia Virtual Power Plant in the video [at the link].
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-virtual-power-plant-south-australia-second-phase/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Archimid

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1556
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 66
  • Likes Given: 94
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1057 on: December 10, 2018, 02:48:30 AM »
Fluoride discovery could lead to much longer-lasting EV batteries

http://hondanews.com/releases/honda-research-institute-and-university-researchers-develop-breakthrough-battery-chemistry

Quote
Fluoride-ion batteries offer a promising new battery chemistry with up to ten times more energy density than currently available Lithium batteries," said Dr. Christopher Brooks, Chief Scientist, Honda Research Institute, and a co-author of the paper. "Unlike Li-ion batteries, FIBs do not pose a safety risk due to overheating, and obtaining the source materials for FIBs creates considerably less environmental impact than the extraction process for lithium and cobalt."

...

Currently, solid-state fluoride ion-conducting battery iterations need to operate at elevated temperatures–above 150 degrees Celsius–to make the electrolyte fluoride-conducting. According to the paper's authors, these limitations in the electrolyte have presented a significant challenge for achieving low-temperature operating FIBs.

To address this, the research team found a method for creating a fluoride-ion electrochemical cell capable of operating at room temperature–a breakthrough made possible by a chemically stable liquid fluoride-conducting electrolyte with high ionic conductivity and a wide operating voltage. The scientists developed the electrolyte using dry tetraalkylammonium fluoride salts dissolved in an organic, fluorinated ether solvent. When paired with a composite cathode featuring a core-shell nanostructure of copper, lanthanum and fluorine, the researchers demonstrated reversible electrochemical cycling at room temperature.

I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 13231
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 156
  • Likes Given: 90
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1058 on: December 11, 2018, 07:21:55 PM »
By the Reno [Nevada] Gazette.

It's big, loud and secretive: We got a tour of Tesla's Gigafactory and here's how it works
https://www.rgj.com/story/news/2018/12/10/reno-sparks-nevada-tesla-gigafactory-factory-model-3-sedan-jobs/2211115002/
With photos and video.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 13231
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 156
  • Likes Given: 90
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1059 on: December 15, 2018, 02:31:14 PM »
According to the document, a Tesla Megapack consists of long 23′-5″ (7.14m) x 5′-3″ (1.60m) battery system, which the company mostly installs back to back with another unit.

Tesla Megapack to debut at giant energy project in California
Quote
Tesla is listing the project as having a total capacity of 1,200 MWh, which would mean that each Megapack has a capacity of 2,673 kWh.

That’s more than 12 times the capacity of Powerpack 2 in a package that could potentially fit about 8 Powerpacks.

The total capacity of those 449 Megapacks represents more energy capacity than Tesla Energy deployed throughout its first 3 years of operation – all Powerpacks and Powerwalls combined. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/12/15/tesla-megapack-debut-giant-energy-storage/

Commissioned by PG&E at the Moss Landing substation.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Archimid

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1556
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 66
  • Likes Given: 94
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1060 on: December 16, 2018, 02:13:09 PM »
Quote
The California Public Utilities Commission approved the project last month and along with 3 other energy storage system, the new energy storage capacity is so important that it will replace three gas power plants.

Three gas power plants. Frigging awesome.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

gerontocrat

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3852
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 401
  • Likes Given: 8
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1061 on: December 24, 2018, 05:14:35 PM »
The article suggests that for grid-scale stationary storage systems flow batteries may end up the preferred solution over lithium-ion due to longer power discharge times and reducing cost. In another article cell-cube claim that have a 10 year old unit with 11,000 cycles on the clock still at 99% capacity.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-24/canada-battery-maker-says-flow-storage-costs-to-tumble-by-half  (in 4 years)

Canada Battery Maker Says Flow Storage Costs to Tumble by Half
Bloomberg News
24 December 2018, 03:11 GMT Updated on 24 December 2018, 16:00 GMT
Quote
CellCube Energy Storage Systems Inc., a Canada-listed maker of batteries that can last for as long as two decades, said the cost of its technology may halve within four years, potentially boosting its uptake over lithium-ion units.

Costs of its vanadium redox flow battery units, which can discharge power for four hours, will decline to $150 per kilowatt hour from $300, President Stefan Schauss said in a phone interview from Toronto this month. Batteries with eight hours of duration will slump to $100 from $200, he said.

Utilities and renewable energy suppliers are increasingly looking to store intermittent wind and sun-generated power to balance out power flows to grids and deploy the electricity when demand peaks. About $620 billion in investment will be required to meet the global energy storage needs that will surge to a cumulative 942 gigawatts by 2040, according to Bloomberg NEF.

“The stationary energy storage market is in an inflection point,” said Schauss, adding that users increasingly prefer storage with longer duration. Combined with falling costs of flow batteries, “lithium batteries may have a hard time to compete.”
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

sidd

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3979
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 78
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1062 on: December 28, 2018, 07:43:36 AM »
More on vanadium redox flow batteries:

https://spectrum.ieee.org/green-tech/fuel-cells/its-big-and-longlived-and-it-wont-catch-fire-the-vanadium-redoxflow-battery

https://www.engineering.com/DesignerEdge/DesignerEdgeArticles/ArticleID/12312/Massive-800-MegaWatt-hour-Battery-to-Be-Deployed-in-China.aspx

https://www.engineering.com/ElectronicsDesign/ElectronicsDesignArticles/ArticleID/8536/Turning-Toxic-Waste-into-Batteries.aspx

Second link claims 20MW 80 MWH in cargo container. Not too bad. hundred of these in a football stadium could power one of several millionstrong midwestern towns that i wander past. Probably best to colocate with large consumers to cut down prices for xmission and xformer yards.

now you still got HCL in volume and vanadium to deal with in case of a spill, but thats what spill control protocols are for. And it dont catch fire like sodium sulfur.

sidd

SteveMDFP

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1120
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 84
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1063 on: December 28, 2018, 08:14:16 AM »
More on vanadium redox flow batteries:
 
now you still got HCL in volume and vanadium to deal with in case of a spill, but thats what spill control protocols are for. And it dont catch fire like sodium sulfur.

sidd

Thanks, sidd.  I think we'll hear more about vanadium flow batteries in the future.  It already has an important use in steel, so industrial uses are not a foreign concept.  Pricey stuff, but flow batteries keep re-using the same vanadium ions over and over.  Such stationary flow batteries may be a no-brainer addition to big solar photovoltaic systems in the near future.  And yes, as toxic spills are concerned, one could do far worse than vanadium, mostly toxic when inhaled.

We might avert catastrophes with such technology, if needed investments can be made fast enough.

sidd

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3979
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 78
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1064 on: December 28, 2018, 09:04:44 AM »
Re: Such stationary flow batteries may be a no-brainer addition to big solar photovoltaic systems in the near future.

absolutely, colocate near intermittent generation which has transformer yard  and big transmission right there as well as my suggestion of colocating with large consumers. The latter can make some serious coin off peak shaving, and the former off peak production.

sidd
 

Archimid

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1556
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 66
  • Likes Given: 94
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1065 on: December 28, 2018, 02:47:45 PM »

Second link claims 20MW 80 MWH in cargo container. Not too bad. hundred of these in a football stadium could power one of several millionstrong midwestern towns that i wander past. Probably best to colocate with large consumers to cut down prices for xmission and xformer yards.

With such mobility and compactness eventually these batteries should be as close as possible to their load/charger to minimize transmission losses. Thanks for bringing up this technology.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

Jim Hunt

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3676
    • View Profile
    • The Arctic sea ice Great White Con
  • Liked: 47
  • Likes Given: 7
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1066 on: December 29, 2018, 10:02:43 AM »
More on vanadium redox flow batteries

Further to our conversation over at aTTP's place:

Quote
There’s even one of those in North Cornwall. Note that redT insist on calling it a “containerised vanadium redox flow machine“!

http://www.V2G.co.uk/2017/11/redt-flow-machine-connects-to-centrica-local-energy-market/
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

sidd

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3979
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 78
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1067 on: January 16, 2019, 09:30:22 PM »
Peakers, storage and batteries: duration matters

"I can beat a gas peaker anywhere in the country today with a solar-plus-storage power plant,"

" Hohenstein advocated a "duration portfolio" approach that uses energy storage to shave peak load. "

"When solar penetration is lower than about 11%, the potential of four-hour storage is lower than it would be with zero solar deployment because solar penetration of 11% or less flattens the load curve. Above 11% penetration, however, NREL found that solar power creates a "peakier" load curve that increases the potential of four-hour storage."

"the cost of energy storage is highly dependent on the number of hours of duration needed."

https://www.utilitydive.com/news/unlayering-peak-demand-could-accelerate-energy-storage-adoption/546098/

sidd