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SteveMDFP

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1100 on: May 14, 2019, 08:11:03 PM »
Re Zhang battery in seawater

Upon reflection, i think if this is done at scale in the ocean, that Prussian Blue electrode had better be very, very stable. Square kilometers of electrode shedding cyanide complexes into the sea is not nice.

sidd

Toxicologically, this seems unlikely to be a problem to me.  Although the cyanide ion is notoriously toxic, prussian blue has the cyanide complexed to iron quite tightly.  In this form, it is even administered as a medication.  It's the strong reactivity of cyanide that makes it both toxic on its own, and readily inactivated by metals.  See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_blue

and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanide_poisoning

"In medicine, orally administered Prussian blue is used as an antidote for certain kinds of heavy metal poisoning"

Archimid

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1101 on: May 26, 2019, 04:46:49 PM »
8minutenergy: ‘We can do solar peaker plants at half the cost of gas’


https://www.energy-storage.news/news/8minutenergy-we-can-do-solar-peaker-plants-at-half-the-cost-of-gas

Quote
“However, to fill that evening peak, we need storage. You start looking at the economics and power prices in that evening peak can be very high, just because these peakers, typically gas peakers, are now pushed into a shorter period to recover their fixed costs. So pricing levels can be well over US$100 per MWh and we can build a solar plant with a four hour battery to service that peak – we can build that somewhere in the US$50 to US$60 per MWh range.”
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jai mitchell

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1102 on: May 26, 2019, 06:21:22 PM »
U.S. Based Electric Power Research Institute

podcast on utility and distribution changes on the horizon with distributed battery, smart inverter, ancillary services (frequency and voltage control) benefits and the potential for using multiple platforms of home and car based batteries in a grid-battery configuration. 

This group is a leader in the u.s. utility development and so this podcast represents a strong signal of change adoption by the u.s. utility industry in the coming years.

https://www.blubrry.com/epri_unplugged_podcast_series/44177486/shifting-energy-across-time-and-space-batteries-on-the-grid/
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Archimid

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1103 on: June 08, 2019, 03:06:21 AM »
New Argonne coating could have big implications for lithium batteries

https://www.anl.gov/article/new-argonne-coating-could-have-big-implications-for-lithium-batteries

Quote
“The coating we’ve discovered really hits five or six birds with one stone.” Khalil Amine, Argonne distinguished fellow and battery scientist.

In the research, Amine and his fellow researchers took particles of Argonne’s pioneering nickel-manganese-cobalt (NMC) cathode material and encapsulated them with a sulfur-containing polymer called PEDOT. This polymer provides the cathode a layer of protection from the battery’s electrolyte as the battery charges and discharges.

Unlike conventional coatings, which only protect the exterior surface of the micron-sized cathode particles and leave the interior vulnerable to cracking, the PEDOT coating had the ability to penetrate to the cathode particle’s interior, adding an additional layer of shielding.

In addition, although PEDOT prevents the chemical interaction between the battery and the electrolyte, it does allow for the necessary transport of lithium ions and electrons that the battery requires in order to function.

“This coating is essentially friendly to all of the processes and chemistry that makes the battery work and unfriendly to all of the potential reactions that would cause the battery to degrade or malfunction,” said Argonne chemist Guiliang Xu, the first author of the research.
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BenB

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1104 on: June 11, 2019, 12:01:04 PM »
Scottish Power is adding a 50 MW battery lithium-ion to its Whitelee wind farm:

https://www.windpowermonthly.com/article/1587063/scottishpower-add-50mw-battery-539mw-whitelee

The battery will provide grid services and enable the wind farm to better match its supply with demand. It will be the biggest battery in the UK when it goes live in 2020.

Archimid

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1105 on: June 20, 2019, 01:18:20 PM »
Australia’s biggest manganese metals project may go 90% renewables

https://reneweconomy.com.au/australias-biggest-manganese-metals-project-may-go-90-renewables-55385/

Quote
The developers of what is expected to be Australia’s biggest manganese metals project are looking to source up to 90 per cent renewables for the electricity supply of its energy-intensive operations, and believe it could achieve price parity with Chinese suppliers if it does.


This is how slowly but steadily we turn even battery production to CO2 neutral.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1106 on: June 23, 2019, 09:17:25 PM »
Tesla Powerwall owners can now earn up to $1,000 per year with National Grid's virtual power plant
Quote
“National Grid customers in Massachusetts or Rhode Island can now enroll their Powerwall in ConnectedSolutions, a program that links batteries across the state together to create a large supply of sustainable energy to be used during peak demand.”
https://electrek.co/2019/06/21/tesla-powerwall-earn-national-grid-virtual-power-plant/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1107 on: June 24, 2019, 01:16:22 AM »
Africa:  Tesla Powerwall 2 batteries located at mobile phone towers help keep vital banking services on-line, especially now that the grid is experiencing local blackouts due to aging diesel generators, and hydropower is weakened by drought.  Powerwall communications can control solar/grid charging, and even deactivate batteries in case of theft from remote locations.

520 Tesla Powerwalls To Be Used In Largest Rollout Of AC-Coupled Li-ion Batteries In Telecoms Sector
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/06/22/520-tesla-powerwalls-largest-rollout-of-ac-coupled-li-ion-batteries-in-telecoms-sector-africa/
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Ken Feldman

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1108 on: July 15, 2019, 09:54:37 PM »
The decrease in prices of batteries is leading to a huge increase in utility-scale battery storage.

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/The-Energy-Storage-Industry-Is-Exploding.html#

Quote
China is set to become the single biggest energy storage market in the Asia Pacific region by 2024, according to new reporting by British data analysis and consultancy group Wood Mackenzie. The company’s July 9th report states in no uncertain terms that the country is poised to take over the energy storage market, as its “cumulative energy storage capacity is projected to skyrocket from 489 megawatts (MW) or 843 megawatt-hours (MWh) in 2017 to 12.5 gigawatts (GW) or 32.1GWh in 2024,” an impressive increase ”in the installed base of 25 times.”


Ken Feldman

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1109 on: July 15, 2019, 10:01:29 PM »
The leading EV manufacturers are expanding their battery manufacturing capacity.

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/EV-Giants-Vie-For-Battery-Dominance.html

Quote
Tesla is the most sold battery electric vehicle globally as of end-2018. Nissan with its
Leaf EV is third. China’s BYD is also in the top ten. The common denominator that
makes them leaders in their field is batteries.

Industry commentator Nick Cox wrote recently for Seeking Alpha that BYD had
allocated some US$1.5 billion in investment for a new battery factory. By next year, the
factory should be operational with an output of an impressive 100 GWh. That would be
a tenth of what China’s EV market would need in terms of battery supply by 2030,
according to BYD’s founder and chairman.

Given that China is the world’s largest singe EV market and likely to remain so in the
observable future, having a tenth of its total battery production capacity makes for a
pretty solid position not just locally, but internationally as well: BYD is already
supplying batteries to Toyota. There is no reason for it not to expand its partnerships
as other carmakers continue struggling with the battery issue on several levels
including cost, range, and reliability.

Tesla, meanwhile, is reportedly working on its own battery cells. CNBC carried a report
in late June, citing company employees, that the carmaker was developing its own
battery cells despite its long-running battery partnership with Panasonic. Striving for
independence in the battery segment makes sense: Elon Musk has complained in the
past of battery constraints that have affected Tesla production and deliveries. There
have also been reports of a cooling off between the partners and the development of
proprietary battery cells fits in with this narrative. Even if the speculation about the
cool-off is untrue, Tesla would certainly do its best to avoid battery constraints in the
future.

Nissan, for its part, is taking another approach. The third-best selling EV in the world
has, it turns out, very durable batteries. They last longer than the productive life of the
Leaf so the company is building demand for battery storage. One of its projects, in the
UK, offers people Nissan Energy Solar: a package of solar panels, battery storage, and a
control system. In other parts of the continent the Leaf can be connected to the grid. A
third branch of Nissan’s battery demand creation is working on turning the Leaf
batteries into a power source for street lights so these can be taken off the grid.

SteveMDFP

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1110 on: July 28, 2019, 06:09:25 AM »
Came across an interesting presentation on a novel option for grid-scale battery storage:

Innovation in Stationary Electricity Storage: The Liquid Metal Battery



Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1111 on: July 30, 2019, 01:55:46 AM »
Tesla makes it simple and economical to add lots of battery storage.

Introducing Megapack: Utility-Scale Energy Storage
Quote
Megapack significantly reduces the complexity of large-scale battery storage and provides an easy installation and connection process. Each Megapack comes from the factory fully-assembled with up to 3 megawatt hours (MWhs) of storage and 1.5 MW of inverter capacity, building on Powerpack’s engineering with an AC interface and 60% increase in energy density to achieve significant cost and time savings compared to other battery systems and traditional fossil fuel power plants.

Using Megapack, Tesla can deploy an emissions-free 250 MW, 1 GWh power plant in less than three months on a three-acre footprint – four times faster than a traditional fossil fuel power plant of that size. Megapack can also be DC-connected directly to solar, creating seamless renewable energy plants.
...
Tesla developed its own software in-house to monitor, control and monetize Megapack installations. All Megapacks connect to Powerhub, an advanced monitoring and control platform for large-scale utility projects and microgrids, and can also integrate with Autobidder, Tesla’s machine-learning platform for automated energy trading. Tesla customers have already used Autobidder to dispatch more than 100 GWh of energy in global electricity markets. And, just as Tesla vehicles benefit from continued software updates over time, Megapack continues to improve through a combination of over-the-air and server-based software updates.

As the world’s transition to sustainable energy continues to accelerate, the market for advanced battery storage solutions is growing rapidly. In the past year alone, we have installed more than 1 GWh of global storage capacity with our current storage products, Powerwall and Powerpack, bringing our total global footprint to more than 2 GWh of cumulative storage. With Megapack, this number will continue to accelerate exponentially in the coming years.
https://www.tesla.com/blog/introducing-megapack-utility-scale-energy-storage


Edit:
More on the simplicity:
Quote
Along with an AC interface, the Megapack also includes DC-connectivity for solar grids, essentially giving it plug ‘n play capability for any type of power grid interface. Tesla’s Megapack product page further describes its “All-in-One-System” design:
“Every Megapack arrives pre-assembled and pre-tested in one enclosure from our Gigafactory—including battery modules, bi-directional inverters, a thermal management system, an AC main breaker and controls. No assembly is required, all you need to do is connect Megapack’s AC output to your site wiring,” Tesla detailed.

Tesla’s latest product is also very competitive compared to other utility power storage options available on the market. Thanks to its high-density energy storage capacity and modularity, the Megapack needs 40% less space and 10x fewer parts than comparable systems, according to data published on Tesla’s product page. This will bode well for areas with space constraints or simply desiring a smaller footprint for energy storage.
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-megapack-targets-utilities-with-massive-3mwh-plug-n-play-battery/
« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 01:54:52 PM by Sigmetnow »
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jai mitchell

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1112 on: July 30, 2019, 09:06:11 PM »
Those megapacks indicate a big production cost decline in the near term. 
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1113 on: August 01, 2019, 04:37:49 PM »
Those megapacks indicate a big production cost decline in the near term.

I think businesses will snap them up, once they realize the benefits and how easy it is to install.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1114 on: August 01, 2019, 04:40:10 PM »
Tesla big battery paves way for artificial intelligence to dominate energy trades
Quote
…Traditional generators only need to maximise their generation during periods of sufficiently high energy prices.

However, the introduction of fast-responding and versatile battery storage systems have the added complexity of optimising the opportunities to purchase electricity from the grid when prices are low, to then sell back to the market when prices are high.

In a presentation in Sydney last week, AMS said sees automated, algorithmic dispatch of battery storage systems as critical to maximising the value of the battery system.

“The Hornsdale battery was the shock heard around the world in terms of storage”. vice president of Strategy and Commercialisation at AMS, Matt Penfold told the Australian Energy Storage conference.  “It’s safe to say this project has been extremely lucrative for Tesla and Neoen.”

The Hornsdale battery has operated via an auto-bidder developed by Tesla, which has allowed the project to capture the best revenue streams for the project, to a degree that could not be achieved by human bidders alone.

“You’re thinking about ‘what is the most lucrative time I can use the energy that’s in my battery?’. given that these problems can’t be solved by human traders, we’re going to see an influx of algorithms to solve this problem for batteries.” Penfold said. “Relative to a human trader, algorithmic bidding software can increase the revenues of a battery by about five-times.”

“The curious thing is that once you have those algorithms for the batteries, you can also do pumped-hydro and renewables and gas, and essentially augment the historical way trading has been done with these really powerful tools.”
https://www.eqmagpro.com/tesla-big-battery-paves-way-for-artificial-intelligence-to-dominate-energy-trades/

———
Elon Musk Talks Tesla Terawatt-Hours. We Run Some Numbers.
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/07/31/elon-musk-hints-at-terawatt-size-tesla-master-plan-part-3-sort-of-and-it-changes-everything/
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SteveMDFP

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1115 on: August 03, 2019, 09:18:02 PM »
Batteries seem to be ideal for managing the short-term mismatches between supply and demand on the grid.  I used to be pretty skeptical of the relevance of battery tech to the grid, but there's clearly an important niche there.  Bloomberg seems to agree:

A Deluge of Batteries Is About to Rewire the Power Grid
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-08-03/a-deluge-of-batteries-is-about-to-rewire-the-power-grid


Ken Feldman

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1116 on: August 09, 2019, 01:44:12 AM »
Technological advances are quickly improving the energy density and charging times for batteries.

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/This-Is-A-Game-Changer-For-Lithium-Ion-Batteries.html

Quote
This Is A Game-Changer For Lithium-Ion Batteries

By Irina Slav - Aug 07, 2019, 3:00 PM CDT

The latest news in the battery space has been about alternatives to lithium-ion technology, which still dominates the space in electronics and cars but is being increasingly challenged from several directions, notably solid-state batteries. Now, a team of researchers has reported they have improved lithium-ion batteries in a way that could discourage some challengers.

In a paper published in Nature magazine, the team, led by Jeff Dahn from Dalhousie University, reports they had designed more battery cells with higher energy density without using the solid-state electrolyte that many believe is a necessary condition for enhanced density. What’s more, the battery cell the team designed demonstrated a longer life than some comparable alternatives.

The team from Dalhousie University was working with Tesla’s Canadian research and development team, Electrek notes in its report of the news, as well as the University of Waterloo. The EV maker is probably the staunchest proponent of lithium-ion technology for electric car batteries, so it would make sense for it to continue investing in research that would keep the technology’s dominance in the face of multiple challengers.

Recently, for example, Japanese researchers announced they had successfully found a substitute for the lithium ions used in batteries and this substitute was much cheaper and more abundant: sodium.

Quote
Sodium batteries are among the more advanced challengers to lithium ion dominance, but like other alternatives to Li-ion batteries, they have been plagued by persistent problems with their performance. Even so, work continues to make them competitive with lithium-ion technology.

This fact has probably made li-ion proponents such as Tesla, who have invested substantial amounts in the technology, double their efforts to improve their batteries’ performance or reduce their cost. As the most expensive component of an electric car, the battery is a top priority for R&D departments in the car-making industry.

Quote
Earlier this year, German scientists said they had found a way to make lithium ion batteries charge much faster. Charing times are the second most important consideration after cost for potential EV buyers, and another priority for EV makers. What the scientists did was replace the cobalt oxide used in the cathode of a lithium ion battery with another compound, vanadium disulfide.

SteveMDFP

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1117 on: August 22, 2019, 05:48:40 PM »
Not a lot of technical detail in this article, but this may well constitute a significant advance in Li-ion technology:

TeraWatt Technology solid-state battery prototype tests showing 432 kWh/kg
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/08/20190822-tera.html

For comparison, Wikipedia states typical Li-ion energy density as " 100–265 W·h/kg (0.36–0.875 MJ/kg) ."  So, roughly doubling the energy per kilogram, if it works in production, would be a major advance.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1118 on: September 08, 2019, 12:46:38 AM »
Tesla battery researcher reveals new pouch cells they believe set a new standard for battery longevity.

Quote
Jeff Dahn and his lab, who are doing battery research for Tesla, have released test results for an impressive new battery cell that is going to be Tesla’s new million-mile battery, according to a source familiar with the matter.

The new battery tested is a Li-Ion battery cell with a next-generation “single crystal” NMC cathode and a new advanced electrolyte.

Dahn’s team have been extensively testing these cells and based on the results, they think that the battery could power an electric car “for over 1.6 million kilometers (1 million miles).”

Here’s how Dahn’s team describes the results:

“We present a wide range of testing results on an excellent moderate-energy-density lithium-ion pouch cell chemistry to serve as benchmarks for academics and companies developing advanced lithium-ion and other “beyond lithium-ion” cell chemistries to (hopefully) exceed. These results are far superior to those that have been used by researchers modelling cell failure mechanisms and as such, these results are more representative of modern Li-ion cells and should be adopted by modellers.  ...
...
Clearly EVs destined for vehicle-to-grid applications, robo taxis or long haul trucking, would favor a lithium-ion chemistry that could deliver many more charge-discharge cycles in a decade than an EV that was destined for typical commuter driving where high energy density to give the longest driving range for weekend trips might be emphasized. ...
https://electrek.co/2019/09/07/tesla-battery-cell-last-1-million-miles-robot-taxis/
« Last Edit: September 08, 2019, 12:53:22 AM by Sigmetnow »
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TerryM

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1119 on: September 08, 2019, 06:34:08 AM »
^^
So - Elon's cylindrical batteries are now proven (by Tesla's own research) to be yesterday's technology. Those that had always promoted pouch cells must feel vindicated. ::)
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1120 on: September 08, 2019, 12:45:46 PM »
Terry found the anti-Tesla spin on Tesla bringing a new battery technology to market.  And no, it's not about the packaging ('pouch cell'). 

"The new battery tested is a Li-Ion battery cell with a next-generation “single crystal” NMC cathode and a new advanced electrolyte."


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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1121 on: September 08, 2019, 02:18:19 PM »
^^
That's fine - as long as you're aware that any ground breaking new battery technology leaves everything produced or marketed up until that time as stranded assets.
I was glad to take $50 for a TI994A system that I had more than $5k in. :(


There was nothing wrong with the TI computer - technology had simply moved on.


None of the Tesla Automotive products can be converted from a cylinder battery. If this is truly a technological breakthrough, it will leave all Tesla vehicles worth less than the cost of disposal.


There are some EVs that have been designed for pouch batteries, presumably it would be much easier for one of these designs to embrace these new batteries.


Either the new batteries are not capable of what is claimed, or Tesla and Tesla owners will be stuck with obsolete technology that's worth less than a dusty Betamax.


It's a problem for anyone investing in new technology - newer technology can wipe the slate clean at any time. ;)
Terry

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1122 on: September 08, 2019, 04:11:42 PM »
Musk has said repeatedly that Gigafactory 1 is not locked into any specific battery type.  These test results are a surprise to us, but not to Tesla, so changes could already be in the works.  Interestingly, last fall when it was published that battery manufacturers in Europe were tearing down a Model 3 battery to see how it was made, Musk commented that he wouldn’t recommend the Model 3 design to others, because it was quite hard to manufacture....  It also puts Panasonic’s adverse comments about Tesla earlier this year into a new light — perhaps they learned that their cells might not be a part of any new Tesla products....
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SteveMDFP

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1123 on: September 08, 2019, 04:45:47 PM »

None of the Tesla Automotive products can be converted from a cylinder battery. If this is truly a technological breakthrough, it will leave all Tesla vehicles worth less than the cost of disposal.

This doesn't make sense to me at all.  Individual cells can be cylindrical, prismaic, or pouch in design.  There are many, many cells in a battery case.  I can't see how the shape of individual cells precludes any existing battery case dimensions or control specifications.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1124 on: September 08, 2019, 06:49:20 PM »
BEV designs that are not trying to fit inside an existing ICE model use this efficient “sled” design, regardless of the type of battery cells they use.

Top image = Tesla (cylindrical cells)
Bottom = Audi (pouch cells)
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NeilT

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1125 on: September 08, 2019, 08:21:43 PM »
Just a couple of comments here.

First the salient point not highlighted so far.  This new technology is moderate energy density but significantly more charge cycles before degradation sets in.

If it was missed, this means giving up range for more charges overall.

Now I don't know about you, but a lot of people I know in the UK, who City drive, put about 12,000 to 20,000 miles on their cars a year. At the upper range that vehicle will take 80 years to reach battery degradation.  On the other hand the owner will be restricted to shorter journeys as longer runs will necessitate too many charges.

The premise doesn't seem to work for me.  Equally V2G is not working for me where I may need to charge my vehicle every 2 days.  If so I'm going to be very reluctant to give that energy back to the grid.

The other point about using different cells? Tesla batteries use the rigidity of the cells to reduce structural weight in the batery.  To use Pouch cells, they would have to redesign the battery structure. Increasing it's weight.

So we would wind up with a Tesla which was heavier, had less power to drive that weight and had a shorter range.  But on the plus side you could charge your Tesla for 40 to 80 years without fear that your battery would fail..  Oh and you could share that smaller capacity with the grid..

Can you see a possible marketing approach for Tesla.  Because, right now, it is escaping me.
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1126 on: September 08, 2019, 09:16:00 PM »
Can you see a possible marketing approach for Tesla.
Heavy freight and storage it is a winner
For Tesla's cars nope .
it is harder to cool individual pouch cells. With cylinders you run cooling between the cells pouch needs plate cooling between every cell. for high discharge recharge rates like performance cars this add weight and complexity. You also need to contain pouch cells from expansion whereas with cylinders it is built in
Some of the reasons why the taycan is so much heaver than Tesla.

NeilT

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1127 on: September 08, 2019, 11:17:59 PM »
I was thinking more the fact that these lower power density cells would give the 160,000 mile per year driver a decade of battery life without problems.

The upside is that you would be able to share the power you have with the grid

The downside is that you get less miles per charge, your car is heavier, requiring you to use more power for the miles you do drive and, finally, to do those 160,000 miles, you would probably have to top up twice as many times.

Given all the angst over range anxiety, this is not really a winning combination.

I could, however, see some application in the business space. Especially if you are advanced enough to see your fleet as portable solar power reservoirs.
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1128 on: September 08, 2019, 11:57:44 PM »
The paper by Jeff Dahn's lab is open access: http://jes.ecsdl.org/content/166/13/A3031.full

They likely used pouch cells for convenience. They took commercial pouch cells (NMC532), opened them up, dried them, added their own electrolytes, and resealed the pouch. I imagine this is much easier to do with pouch cells rather than cylindrical cells.

With Jeff Dahn as a consultant, Tesla has very likely done similar experiments in their labs using their own chemistries and cylindrical cells. Jeff Dahn probably knows about Teslas's experiments but is not allowed to tell anyone, not even his own group at Dalhousie, and certainly not reveal anything in an academic paper. For all we know, some things learned from those experiments might already be in use in Tesla's batteries.

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1129 on: September 09, 2019, 12:58:14 AM »
Cradle to grave, the CO2 emission of an EV with a million miles life expectancy is ridiculously low, specially in green grid.

Then if those million miles could be driven in 5 years not 20, a million mile battery could potentially remove a lot of CO2 emissions fairly soon.

EVs already have a huge advantage in fuel cost and maintenance. That cost advantage added to driver less cars could be the final blow to the ICE and could happen much sooner than anyone expects.

This may actually work.
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1130 on: September 09, 2019, 02:48:32 AM »
As the article quoted, the new batteries are of more benefit for uses other than the usual “local commute, only need to charge a couple of times a week” scenario.  Per the graph, it holds up well even with continual charging 0 to 100%, even in very cold and very hot temperatures.

Clearly EVs destined for vehicle-to-grid applications, robo taxis or long haul trucking, would favor a lithium-ion chemistry that could deliver many more charge-discharge cycles in a decade than an EV that was destined for typical commuter driving where high energy density to give the longest driving range for weekend trips might be emphasized. ...

Quote
Steve Jobs Ghost (@tesla_truth) 9/8/19, 6:26 AM
The average commuter only needs 25% of their battery per day. “So why do I need a battery that lasts for a million miles?” you might ask

3 reasons:
1) You’re a truck or a bus doing a full cycle every day
2) you’re a robotaxi running constantly
3) vehicle battery as powerwall
https://twitter.com/tesla_truth/status/1170644605005488128
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1131 on: September 09, 2019, 06:39:10 AM »
  Lithium Batteries' Dirty Secret: Manufacturing Them Leaves Massive Carbon Footprint

https://www.industryweek.com/technology-and-iiot/lithium-batteries-dirty-secret-manufacturing-them-leaves-massive-carbon
(oct2018)

Quotes:
"Beneath the hoods of millions of the clean electric cars rolling onto the world's roads in the next few years will be a dirty battery."

"By 2021, capacity will exist to build batteries for more than 10 million cars running on 60 kilowatt-hour packs, according to data of Bloomberg NEF. Most supply will come from places like China, Thailand, Germany and Poland that rely on non-renewable sources like coal for electricity."

"The findings, among the more bearish ones around, show that while electric cars are emission-free on the road, they still discharge a lot of the carbon-dioxide that conventional cars do."

"Just to build each car battery—weighing upwards of 500 kilograms (1,100 pounds) in size for sport-utility vehicles—would emit up to 74% more C02 than producing an efficient conventional car if it's made in a factory powered by fossil fuels in a place like Germany, according to Berylls' findings."

----

From: https://www.mdpi.com/2313-0105/5/1/23/pdf
(feb2019 Paper)
 
   Eco-Efficiency of a Lithium-Ion Battery for Electric
   Vehicles: Influence of Manufacturing Country and
   Commodity Prices on GHG Emissions and Costs

Quote from abstract:

"Optimizing the process by reducing the electricity consumption during the manufacturing is also suggested, and combined with higher pack energy density, the impact on climate change of the pack manufacturing is as low as 39.5 kg CO 2 eq/kWh."

So, for the manufacturing of an average size car with a 60 KWh battery this gives 2370 Kg, 2.37 tonnes of CO2e !

Warning: We need to lose the individual carbon footprints 'yesterday'. There is no 'budget' imo.

This means that cars (motor assisted personal transport) are unsustainable.
Electric bus, shared motor assisted transport is much better and a bicycle is best.
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1132 on: September 09, 2019, 07:33:35 AM »
So, for the manufacturing of an average size car with a 60 KWh battery this gives 2370 Kg, 2.37 tonnes of CO2e !

As a rule of thumb, you can know by the price of a car how much CO2 is emitted during the production of the car. For a 15k Smart, it's ~15 tones of CO2. The luxury SUV for 80k accounts for ~80 tones of CO2 - roughly speaking of course.

So yes, it's a massive waste of resources that we have this whole individual transport thing going on in the first place.

But, given that numbers, that battery wouldn't dramatically increase the CO2 emissions during the production while reducing the footprint during the lifetime of the car, netting fewer emissions.

Since there is a chance to bring lifetime emissions down to zero for EVs, there is no chance society will abandon individual transport. Hence we should welcome the BEV technology. EVs also last longer, so they will also lower the need for production that way.

Also, we should figure out how to transform ICE cars into EVs in an efficient and cheap way. This would save resources big time.
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1133 on: September 09, 2019, 08:32:27 AM »
I replied to the previous comment on the "cars,cars and more cars" thread

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2687.msg227598.html#msg227598

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1134 on: September 09, 2019, 11:14:58 AM »
Nanning, it is not a secret that battery manufacturing emits more CO2 than manufacturing an engine. We all know this.

 But we also know that EV's are so efficient that over the life of the vehicle the manufacturing emissions are offset by the non emissions of the vehicle even in dirty grids. In green grids the offset happens very fast and every mile after offset is net emissions reduction.

And remember this is a chicken and egg problem. The more grids are powered by renewables the lower the emissions of manufacturing the batteries.
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1135 on: September 09, 2019, 11:16:15 AM »
I should have added that the CO2e emitted in the manufacturing of batteries does not only affect EV cars, but all battery energy storage.

A battery pack that can hold 1 MWh has emitted at least 2370 tonnes of CO2e in manufacturing. Consider how many 'powerwalls' and other battery storage is being constructed. It must amount to an enormous carbon footprint.

Technofixes don't work I think, we have to change the way we live and overhaul our organisational systems.
We use MUCH TOO MUCH ENERGY. Not sustainable imo.
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1136 on: September 09, 2019, 11:26:29 AM »
Thanks for the info Archimid but I don't understand the following:

<snip>
every mile after offset is net emissions reduction.

It this the by RCP8.5 required negative net emissions technology you are referring to?
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1137 on: September 09, 2019, 11:27:49 AM »
And remember this is a chicken and egg problem. The more grids are powered by renewables the lower the emissions of manufacturing the batteries.

A point rarely touched on.  Tesla has already begun adding solar to its US factories, Shanghai has been built with the capability to deploy solar.


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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1138 on: September 09, 2019, 11:32:22 AM »
Quote
A battery pack that can hold 1 MWh has emitted at least 2370 tonnes of CO2e in manufacturing. Consider how many 'powerwalls' and other battery storage is being constructed. It must amount to an enormous carbon footprint.

A battery pack that can hold 1MWH and is powered by solar panels will offset the emissions of fossil fuel power plants in a matter of months, specially when you take into account the emissions of extracting fuels.

Quote
Technofixes don't work I think, we have to change the way we live and overhaul our organisational systems.

We do have to change the way we live and overhaul all our organizations and we need to leverage technology to help us do that without starving people.

Quote
We use MUCH TOO MUCH ENERGY. Not sustainable imo.

We do use too much energy. What is worst is that we generate much more energy than we need because the system is extremely wasteful. Local renewable energy, including energy storage in any form reduces the waste of transmitting energy, and that is significant.

But even then, we must reduce our energy use in everything from indoor climate control, to government operations to the way we transport our goods and services to the way we manufacture batteries.

Quote
It this the by RCP8.5 required negative net emissions technology you are referring to?

No. Negative emissions in the sense that a mile km driven by an EV powered by a renewable source does not add to CO2 emissions but a mile driven by an ICE does add emissions. Thus an EV removes emissions by not being an ICE.

We are also going to need the to somehow suck CO2 out of the atmosphere, but that is OT here.
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1139 on: September 09, 2019, 11:37:00 AM »
Technofixes don't work I think,

This statement is 100% correct, Nanning.

But, as you know, it's utopic nonetheless.

The question can't therefore be, how do we abandon technology but how do we use technology to mitigate.

Mitigation can't be avoided - with or without making use of technology.
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1140 on: September 09, 2019, 11:47:51 AM »
I should have added that the CO2e emitted in the manufacturing of batteries does not only affect EV cars, but all battery energy storage.

A battery pack that can hold 1 MWh has emitted at least 2370 tonnes of CO2e in manufacturing. Consider how many 'powerwalls' and other battery storage is being constructed. It must amount to an enormous carbon footprint.

Technofixes don't work I think, we have to change the way we live and overhaul our organisational systems.
We use MUCH TOO MUCH ENERGY. Not sustainable imo.

The entire argument is crafted to present the position that we should use less power.

Let us have a different argument.  The energy landscape is split between transport, home and industry.  So you don't want to make batteries which mitigate our CO2 emissions.  Nope we just need to become cottage industries agai.  Sadly around half our population would be unsustainable then

The UK has decided that gas CH boilers are to be banned in New builds from 2025.  Great yo say, so what are we going to use to replace the energy, from that gas, with? Currently the thinking is ground spike, heat pump and electricity.  Supported by renewables.

But where are we going to store that energy, deep in winter in the middle of the night, that you use to keep warm?

Power walls have a lifetime far, far longer than a car, batteries in cars have a second life powering homes when they reach around 60% degradation.

These batteries are not going to be crushed, or recycled, before they have reached the end of their useful life. Once the market is flooded with old EV batteries from cars which are no longer useful to own, entire industries are going to spring up for repurposing them

Granted I have issues with the short term energy generation strategy and am quite vocal about it, but the long term strategy for the battery storage future is fairly positive.

Add to all of that the changes which are happening with renewables for industry and your view of our energy usage is myopic in the extreme.

I advise picking up the binoculars and pointing the large side at the future and looning in the small side.

We are not there yet, not by a long way, but constantly dragging down the technology which is helping, just to fit a political theme, does not help.

We need to use more clean energy and less dirty energy.  Large Li batteries will, in the long run, get us there. Saying that it is better to use FF burning vehicles instead, based on one time costs of manufacture, is not.

In the near future there will be 10bn people on this planet, they need to be consuming clean energy.
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1141 on: September 09, 2019, 12:16:42 PM »
10bn people times 1stWorld high energy use? The Earth says no. ;)

(I leave the binoculars for now because otherwise I can't see what's right in front of me anymore ;).)
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1142 on: September 09, 2019, 01:08:04 PM »
Quote
A battery pack that can hold 1 MWh has emitted at least 2370 tonnes of CO2e in manufacturing. Consider how many 'powerwalls' and other battery storage is being constructed. It must amount to an enormous carbon footprint.

A battery pack that can hold 1MWH and is powered by solar panels will offset the emissions of fossil fuel power plants in a matter of months, specially when you take into account the emissions of extracting fuels.

Well,Archimid, that is unfortunately not true:

Gas/coal on average produce cca. 500kg-1 ton of Co2e to generate 1 MWh

So if a 1MWh battery used 2370 t of Co2e  during manufacturing, it needs to be 100% recharged with energy 2370-4740 times before the offset you mentioned starts to work. Since these are not recharged every day, you would need at the very least 20-30 years before the offset starts to work, but in reality more like 100+ years.

See:
https://www.quora.com/Where-can-I-find-data-for-CO2-emissions-per-MWh-for-electricity-sources-for-example-coal-vs-nat-gas


Batteries  are very dirty actually
« Last Edit: September 09, 2019, 02:02:53 PM by El Cid »

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1143 on: September 09, 2019, 02:03:20 PM »


Gas/coal on average produce cca. 500kg-1 ton of Co2e
So if a 1MWh battery used 2370 t of Co2e  during manufacturing, it needs to be 100% recharged with energy 2370-4740 times before the offset starts to work. Since these are not recharged every day, you would need at the very least 20-30 years before the offset starts to work.

See:
https://www.quora.com/Where-can-I-find-data-for-CO2-emissions-per-MWh-for-electricity-sources-for-example-coal-vs-nat-gas
 

That's a very incomplete analysis.  The electricity provided by grid storage batteries doesn't only displace the carbon that would be emitted for the grid otherwise.  It displaces the need to create new fossil fuel plants.  It enhances the economics and utility of renewable energy sources to further displace fossil fuel generation.

There's an underlying silly reasoning used against building a renewable energy infrastructure, that building such infrastructure will create more CO2 than it's worth. 

Well, all economic activity that uses electricity will create CO2 until the grid is based on renewable sources.  Almost all other current uses of fossil fuels *can* be shifted to electricity.  Civilization can operate with a very low carbon footprint, if an initial investment is made in building a renewable infrastructure, even if that initial investment is itself carbon-intensive.

One could use the same faulty logic in reverse.  Imagine a society that was already running on 100% renewables.  They decide to shift to fossil fuel generation, because building those coal-burning electrical plants would be created using renewable energy, and thus have no carbon footprint!!  Insanity.

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1144 on: September 09, 2019, 06:04:04 PM »
The Union Of Concerned Scientists has done a detailed, Cradle-to-Grave study of the emissions of EVs vs. ICE cars — mining and manufacturing, to driving and disposal.  Looking only at mining/manufacturing ignores the much higher contribution of ICE vehicle emissions over their lifetime.  They are literally created to pollute.

Life Cycle Electric Vehicle Emissions (2015) | Union of Concerned Scientists
https://www.ucsusa.org/clean-vehicles/electric-vehicles/life-cycle-ev-emissions

Quote
When looking at the full life cycle of the vehicle, electric cars are cleaner and greener than their conventional gasoline-burning counterparts. While true that building an electric car produces more emissions than a conventional car, mostly because of battery production, these emissions are dwarfed by those saved over the driving life of the EV. In fact, they are offset in most cases in the first year of driving by emissions reductions from normal operation and use of the vehicle.
https://www.kochvsclean.com/electric-cars-are-cleaner-cradle-grave/
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1145 on: September 09, 2019, 06:33:59 PM »
The Union Of Concerned Scientists has done a detailed, Cradle-to-Grave study of the emissions of EVs vs. ICE cars — mining and manufacturing, to driving and disposal.  Looking only at mining/manufacturing ignores the much higher contribution of ICE vehicle emissions over their lifetime.  They are literally created to pollute.

The USA Today article is by, wait for it, Bjorn Lomborg. 
A distinguished member of the "Climate Denial -  Solutions are Worse Than the Problem" corp.

The difference between Lomborg (and his scientist** ilk) with Judas Iscariot is that this lot think Judas came too cheap.  "£0 pieces of silver? Chump change!".
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1146 on: September 09, 2019, 07:12:23 PM »
To participants in the earlier discussion, I have made a bad mistake.  :-[
In this post: https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1150.msg227623.html#msg227623

The paper I posted earlier gives a minimum of 39.5 kg CO 2 eq/kWh. So 1 MWh = 39.5 tonnes of CO2e, not 2370 tonnes.
I am very sorry for the error and perhaps any confusion.  :-[
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1147 on: September 09, 2019, 07:15:47 PM »
LOL, i read it as 2.370t.

I don't believe the 39t figure though. I might google dat. ;)

Edit: Found this:

Quote
The study's finding of 8.2 years is "based on a series of assumptions." To get to that figure, two of those assumptions must have been that the internal-combustion vehicle in question gets great mileage and isn't driven very much. Oh, and while battery production incurs a carbon footprint in these statistics, the gasoline in the study magically appears in your tank and the only carbon emitted is from burning it (that is, the calculations ignore the carbon emissions created by producing and moving large quantities of gasoline). Those are nifty assumptions.

Let's say the gas-powered car is actually something similar to a Tesla Model S P100D, which would use the battery in question. Let's say we're talking about the Audi A8 4.0, another quick AWD sedan. According to the EPA, that car emits 6.2 metric tons of CO2 per year, given 15,000 miles of annual driving. And since A8s don't automatically percolate their own 93-octane, the EPA also calculates an additional 1.1 tons of upstream carbon to get those ancient dinosaur innards coursing through your fuel pump. Math aficionados will note that 17.5 (battery production) divided by 7.3 (total annual A8 emissions) equals 2.4. As in, apples to apples, the battery's carbon footprint is zeroed out in less than three years.

Link >> https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-electric/news/a27039/tesla-battery-emissions-study-fake-news/
« Last Edit: September 09, 2019, 07:28:31 PM by blumenkraft »
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1148 on: September 09, 2019, 07:18:29 PM »
To participants in the earlier discussion, I have made a bad mistake.  :-[
In this post: https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1150.msg227623.html#msg227623

The paper I posted earlier gives a minimum of 39.5 kg CO 2 eq/kWh. So 1 MWh = 39.5 tonnes of CO2e, not 2370 tonnes.
I am very sorry for the error and perhaps any confusion.  :-[

We all err.... :)

However, what it has shown is that these batteries are a really large part of the solution and that their construction cost is lower than their benefit by a large margin.  Also that manufactured with clean energy their benefit is significantly greater.

On the point about the world saying no... I'll add that to another post.
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1149 on: September 09, 2019, 07:36:48 PM »
10bn people times 1stWorld high energy use? The Earth says no. ;)

The Earth can say whatever it wants, the emerging economies say "bring it on".  They all want 1st world energy too. I can't blame them, I just want them to lead with clean energy.

The biggest misnomer here is that renewables are the only clean energy.  A large part, yes, but only?  No.

You need to go back and revisit why we stopped using wind and water in the first place. The biggest issues were portability and always on.

Those issues have not changed. Coal, steam, oil and the ICE, stopped wind and water use as a power source.

Batteries are a critical part of the fix.  They provide portability and help fix the always on.

If you cannot, or will not, understand that, then you are doomed to failure in your goals.

1 year ago I would not have believed how fast the 1st world would move on this.  In 2018, UK net CO2 emissions fell by 2.4%.  The US rose by 2.5%, China by 4.5% and India by 6.3%.

Looking at the 2017 figures by % of  1990 emissions is very interesting.

Greenland, 17,266%.  What, you say, madness.  Actually, no, 3,000 tons in 1990 and half a million in 2017.

Vietnam, 1083%, up to 218mt, Myanmar, 646% up to 28mt.  Bangladesh, 609%, up to 84mt, China, 453% to 10,000mt and the largest emitter in the world.  India,  405%, Indonesia 315%,

Then let us look at the first world.

US, 100.4% France, 87.6%, Germany, 78.2%, United Kingdom, 64. 4%,

Going further I took an arbitrary, established/emerging economy split on the emissions.  I included India and China in the emerging.  All EU countries in established, all western 1st world and a few others like Russia.

The split was interesting.  15,970mt for the established economies.  19,885 for the emerging.  Excluding air and shipping as they are not broken down by country.

The bigger message is the % of 1990 emissions in 2017. For the first group (excluding Greenland for obvious reasons), has a mean % of 135 of 1990 emissions.

Doing the same thing to the emerging markets, removing some very small and greatly outlying %'s, the median % of 1990 is 1033%.

We are already there.  The emerging markets have not only caught up with the 1st world, they have overtaken it, are growing as the 1st world shrinks and are now the drivers of the growth in CO2 that we see today.

This makes the delivery of a viable portable clean energy infrastructure, via batteries or hydrogen or even cryo air, vitally important.  Because the current driver for the CO2 growth we are experiencing (we are about to hit the first decade with CO2ppm growth over 2ppm for every year), is not being driven by the 1st world.  It is being driven by the emerging world and far from saying "NO", they are saying GIMME GIMME GIMME and DAMN THE COST.

Figures taken form the wiki page on countries by CO2 emissions
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