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Author Topic: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution  (Read 204462 times)

nanning

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1150 on: September 09, 2019, 07:39:58 PM »
Quote
We all err.... :)
Thanks NeilT :)

I in my opinion, batteries and all that EV technology and 'renewable' energy etc. are no more than an extension of BAU and therefore a wrong direction. We know BAU (business-as-usual) is wrong. We have to change our capitalist luxury lazy profitloving temptation easy consumerist system before 2030 according to science.
We really need to drastically lower our energy use! We can't afford any more emissions. 415ppm is far far too high already. The whole biosphere is breaking down. I wish I could make you snap out of the dream (I'm not addressing just you NeilT).
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell

NeilT

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1151 on: September 09, 2019, 08:03:23 PM »
China is still fairly communist, read the figures.

Both China and the USSR, in their communist days, committed the worst environmental atrocities and just ignored all complaints.

The Capitalists, on the other hand, created environmental laws, tried to reign in excesses and give their children a fit place to spend all that money they have amassed.

If you read the stats I posted, it is no longer the Capitalists who are rapaciously consuming all the FF in the world.  The Children of Capitalism, are growing up and outgrowing their parents.

Your view, whilst one which may appeal to many, is out of date and needs revision.
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

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Bruce Steele

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1152 on: September 09, 2019, 08:29:31 PM »
My power walls are being installed today. I am looking forward to playing with the energy management app. Will soon have two power walls connected to my solar panels. My wife and I could easily get by with a plug in Prius for the little local driving we do so I have no plans for a model 3. A used plug in Prius is next .
 Hauling pigs to market once a month requires more horsepower and fuel than all other household monthly driving combined. My 30 year old truck will still be our families largest emitter . Eight freezers, air conditioner, water wells, refrigerator, batteries and lighting are all now supplied with solar. Don't need much household heating around here.
 I can feed us and power our farm with very little fossil fuels but earning a living farming still requires
fossil fuels( delivery to markets and grain purchases ) It takes money for all the infrastructure so we will have to keep working. Even with everything paid for we will both still keep working. I don't think any of what I do is either difficult or unaffordable for people who can afford to buy a house. Everything including the house will be paid for before I die. Strange though that none of this seems to affect property values but if the economy crashes at least we can afford our utilities because they are already paid in advance.
 
Nanning, BAU is still a valid description for my lifestyle choices. Maybe I am heading in the right direction but I believe a rigorous accounting of all the embodied energy it takes to get off the grid needs to be done on working examples around the world. First we need working examples ! We need desperately to compare low carbon options . Zero is impossible without sinking carbon somehow so I pursue farming although even farming will not sink carbon in some climate conditions. If it rained around here and stayed green year round sinking carbon would work but under desert conditions sinking carbon and zero emissions are a pipe dream.
 

sidd

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1153 on: September 09, 2019, 08:46:56 PM »
Re:  My 30 year old truck will still be our families largest emitter

dont you make biodiesel ? or does the truck run on gasoline ?

sidd

Bruce Steele

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1154 on: September 09, 2019, 10:06:25 PM »
Sidd, I do make bio for my old tractor but it doesn't use much. It comes down to money sometimes and to replace my gas refrigerated truck with a diesel refer truck and make the 400+ gallons of bio it would annually take to get me to Fresno would eat about every cent of profit I make , and then some.
 I keep trying to make the point that running a business without fossil fuels is something quite different than subsistence farming. I can subsist here only because I have spent money I made working ,for wells, solar, batteries,etc. I can quit working but then everything is in a glide path because I can no longer afford infrastructure improvements. I need an income but I also need to make a profit.
 Sometimes I think I should just plant native oaks on my bottomland, grow them big enough to make it hard for the next generation to cut and stump them , and forget about renewable ag.
 I have a lot of respect for you Sidd. You are educated, manage about the best renewable farming business I know about and I hope you are well rewarded. Most of us small time farmers are both dependent on outside incomes from both husband and wife and still struggle. We lose money farming more often than we have profitable years. I am just about old enough to know I can't keep up the workload because a knee or a hip or just about anything physical will likely jump up and bite me soon enough. The farm is worth the effort, plenty of people thank me for the effort, the happy pigs are almost reward enough . I don't want to sound like I'm complaining , I'd do it all again if given the chance. Making a profit and zero carbon is a long row to hoe...  not there.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1155 on: September 10, 2019, 02:57:36 AM »
You go, Bruce!  Here’s hoping that before your 30-year-old truck bites the dust, a vehicle-share program is established in your area that will allow you to call up a truck when you require one, rather than needing to buy another one yourself.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Archimid

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1156 on: September 10, 2019, 03:48:21 AM »

Well,Archimid, that is unfortunately not true:

Gas/coal on average produce cca. 500kg-1 ton of Co2e to generate 1 MWh

So if a 1MWh battery used 2370 t of Co2e  during manufacturing, it needs to be 100% recharged with energy 2370-4740 times before the offset you mentioned starts to work. Since these are not recharged every day, you would need at the very least 20-30 years before the offset starts to work, but in reality more like 100+ years.

See:
https://www.quora.com/Where-can-I-find-data-for-CO2-emissions-per-MWh-for-electricity-sources-for-example-coal-vs-nat-gas


Batteries  are very dirty actually

And you didn't even add the emissions of extracting, processing, transporting and distributing fossil fuels. You only calculated the emissions while producing power.

Fossil fuels will be our end, but we can stop using them AND have a better world. There is still time.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

Bruce Steele

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1157 on: September 10, 2019, 04:11:57 AM »
Thanks Sig !  Well they are all wired up and waiting for start up and county inspection. They still have the plastic protection over the Tesla name.
 Like I said the power walls aren't working yet but as some sort of affirmation there was wind ,a big fire, and PG&E shut down our power for several hours. No threat of fire near the ranch but PG&E has been warning about blackouts under certain weather conditions. The new normal I think. The fire was caused by someone dragging a trailer chain I think because it started in multiple places on the freeway shoulder.

sidd

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1158 on: September 10, 2019, 06:20:22 AM »
Re: diesel reefer

We run a few of those, the big traction engines are OK (except for the 5-10% drop in power) but, boy, we had a helluva time getting the reefer engine to like biodiesel. It starts and stops intermittently when the thermostat fires, and absolutely didn't like that on biodiesel, specially when cold, and it only fires for a little bit now and then.

Wound up doing complicated things, including changing out reefer motors, but thats a topic for another thread. Do we have an HVAC thread ?

sidd

nanning

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1159 on: September 10, 2019, 06:58:59 AM »
For readers who are not from the America's:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/reefer

  Etymology 2
Clipping of refrigerator.
reefer (plural reefers)
    (colloquial, chiefly US) A refrigerated, insulated trailer, ship or shipping container.
    (rail transport, US) a refrigerator car (type of boxcar).

  Etymology 3
Origin uncertain. Perhaps from regional Spanish grifa (“cannabis”) (Mexico), grifo (“someone who smokes cannabis”) (Central America).
reefer (plural reefers)
    (slang) A marijuana cigarette.
    (slang, uncountable) Marijuana.
 ;D
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell

blumenkraft

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1160 on: September 10, 2019, 08:09:29 AM »
China is still fairly communist, read the figures.

Let's start with the definition. ;)

Quote
communism
/ˈkɒmjʊnɪz(ə)m/
noun
a theory or system of social organization in which all property is owned by the community and each person contributes and receives according to their ability and needs.

With this in mind, how is China fitting this definition? In China, you have poor farmers and billionaires. Businesses are privately owned.

China is a neoliberal economy with an authoritarian government. Very much like the US these days...

You need to know, when the west in the 80s started their neoliberal war against humanity, it was a Chinese idea. It was Deng Xiaoping who floated the idea of privatizing to open China to the west. Thatcher, Reagan, and Kohl loved it and immediately adopted this policy, slashing welfare and privatized public goods and services.
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NeilT

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1161 on: September 10, 2019, 10:25:41 AM »
Communism is, in my estimation, the very worst face of Capitalism.  Where the very smallest elite own everything and everyone else gets to be a serf.

It is the biggest con ever.

So every time someone justifies their CO2 mitigation efforts by some collective, neo communist, swipe at capitalism, I am inclined to present a different view.

Communism was never the collective ideal.  The remains of communism are rooted in the single party state.

I visited the USSR satellites in the 70's with open eyes. Nothing I have seen since has changed my view.

We see, on this thread, the Capitalist energy water trying incredibly hard to reduce FF emissions and the, what, Socialist?  Calling the "capitalist" an energy waster.  Being a Vegan, using public transport and calling others Capitalists does little to change the energy balance of the country you live in.

But, anyway, we should get back to batteries.  Because the capitalist are well aware that if we don't transition to EV, CO2 Neutral energy and portable energy storage, they'll lose a few billion customers and that's a bad business model.  Because none of us Capitalists care about the human costs do we?

Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

Robert A. Heinlein

blumenkraft

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1162 on: September 10, 2019, 11:21:51 AM »
Quote
in my estimation,

Shall we use words in the context of their meaning or is it helpful to project very subjective things on them in the assumption the talking partner would know about them? Let's just stick to the former, because it's making the conversation way easier.

The CO2 emissions of a country is not a function of the political system per se. Sure, the Chinese government may decide to ban fossils just like that. That's not possible in the US.

We have a two-party fake-democracy country and a one-party fake-communist country. Both are emitting too much CO2. As does any 'western' country. This is because we all use the wrong primary energy sources. We use them because of the price. The price is a function of markets. The US and China are operating on one world market at almost the same market rules. Ergo the free market is the problem, not the economic/political label you put on countries.

There is one way out though: Put a price on externalities and make it a market rule by using market tools (i.e. taxation).
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El Cid

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1163 on: September 10, 2019, 12:08:42 PM »


There is one way out though: Put a price on externalities and make it a market rule by using market tools (i.e. taxation).

There you have it. The problem is incentives not the system itself. Put a reasonable price on carbon AND all other pollutants, especially plastics and the market system will sort it out. You will have plenty of green energy, sustainable agriculture, etc. simply by changing the incentives (pricing externalities)

NevB

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1164 on: September 10, 2019, 03:28:17 PM »


There is one way out though: Put a price on externalities and make it a market rule by using market tools (i.e. taxation).

There you have it. The problem is incentives not the system itself. Put a reasonable price on carbon AND all other pollutants, especially plastics and the market system will sort it out. You will have plenty of green energy, sustainable agriculture, etc. simply by changing the incentives (pricing externalities)

This is as clear an example as you will ever get of the effect of a carbon price.
While this was in effect the economy was also growing.



Not enough to avoid 2C but a step in the right direction.

The image is from here (I couldn't find a bigger pic)
http://econews.com.au/62140/australias-greenhouse-gas-emissions-continue-to-rise/

NeilT

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1165 on: September 11, 2019, 07:36:05 PM »
A larger image.



There were a lot more things going on than just Carbon pricing during that time, including adjustment to the restrictions the financial crisis put on the world economy.

Talking about just pricing carbon, you might say that the direct approach, directly led to trump being elected.

At the end of 2011 Germany decided to shut down all nuclear reactors.  By 2016 they had managed 10, significantly increasing direct CO2 emissions from coal power generation and also secondary emissions by sucking in Coal fired electricity from neighbours plus (hypocritical), not a small amount of Nuclear power too.

Simultaneously China kicked into high gear with the resurgence of 1st World finances and India also started increasing emissions at a much higher rate.

Then we have the figures on China Coal consumption and CO2 emissions.

Quote
In 2015, official statistics revealed that previous statistics had been systematically underestimated by 17%, corresponding to the entire CO2 emissions of Germany.[16]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_in_China

It is easy to point to a chart and show one factor and say "see it was that".  But the chart is global and so is the market which produces CO2.
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

Robert A. Heinlein

jai mitchell

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1166 on: September 12, 2019, 05:39:42 AM »
Tesla's Partnership Virtual Power Plant with the South Australian Government is now oversubscribed and looking toward 'Phase 3"

https://reneweconomy.com.au/south-australia-says-tesla-virtual-power-plant-charging-ahead-84199/
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cmcgugan

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1167 on: September 13, 2019, 08:09:16 PM »
Interest Is Rising in Energy Storage for Building Resiliencehttps://www.navigantresearch.com/news-and-views/interest-is-rising-in-energy-storage-for-building-resilience.
Quote
Recent extreme weather events and natural disasters, such as hurricanes Harvey and Irma, draw attention to a new use case in commercial building retrofits for building resilience and independence. Natural disasters are only expected to grow in frequency and severity because of climate change. One of the key effects of these events are power outages, as seen in Puerto Rico. Building owners are taking note of this new threat and looking at energy storage and solar plus storage solutions for their building portfolios.
Batteries or other forms of energy storage can be used to make buildings more resilient to grid outages especially when combined with renewable energy generation such as PV. In the building design and operation fields there is a growing awareness that while "Green" buildings can help reduce energy use and CO2 production, we also need to prepare buildings for a more extreme climate.