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Author Topic: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution  (Read 420741 times)

Bruce Steele

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1200 on: October 09, 2019, 10:01:17 PM »
Sig, One of the requirements for a powerwall install is a WiFi connection because the powerwall actively communicates with ( tesla? PG&E ? ) It tracks your use of the powerwall because that is a condition of the rebate . It can take over your powerwall and use it’s energy if you sign an agreement for Tesla to use your power. I must be nuts because I agreed and the installer said “ nobody else ever agreed “ that he installed.
 Bottom line is powerwall kinda runs with assistance from Tesla?  Do you know if it can be programmed to charge 45-85% like Archimid suggested ? Do you think it would help save battery life?

Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1201 on: October 10, 2019, 02:12:38 AM »
Sig, One of the requirements for a powerwall install is a WiFi connection because the powerwall actively communicates with ( tesla? PG&E ? ) It tracks your use of the powerwall because that is a condition of the rebate . It can take over your powerwall and use it’s energy if you sign an agreement for Tesla to use your power. I must be nuts because I agreed and the installer said “ nobody else ever agreed “ that he installed.
 Bottom line is powerwall kinda runs with assistance from Tesla?  Do you know if it can be programmed to charge 45-85% like Archimid suggested ? Do you think it would help save battery life?

I would think Tesla’s programming would be designed to give the best results.  Remember, Powerwall battery chemistry is different than that for the cars — because the daily cycling and use is different — so don’t base your decision on what you’ve read about car battery packs.  But if you find a feature you really think would be helpful, give Elon a tweet.  If he thinks it’s a good idea, he’ll do it.  :)
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Archimid

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1202 on: October 10, 2019, 03:50:57 AM »
Each battery chemistry has its own sweet spot for battery degradation, typically around the middle of the SOC at a cell level. As I understand it, close to 100% SOC is usually harmful to the battery. But then again Bruce is charging to 99%, not 100%. That may be the difference of hundreds of cycles,

Also as Sigmetnow points out, the battery chemistry in Powerwalls might be completely different from automotive batteries. It makes all the sense in the world. The specific chemistry of these batteries was chosen with Powerwall use in mind, not driving. It may be that the sweet spot of Bruce's batteries is right at 99%.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1203 on: October 10, 2019, 04:06:49 AM »
...
Also as Sigmetnow points out, the battery chemistry in Powerwalls might be completely different from automotive batteries. It makes all the sense in the world. The specific chemistry of these batteries was chosen with Powerwall use in mind, not driving. It may be that the sweet spot of Bruce's batteries is right at 99%.

Powerwall 2 uses different chemistry from even Powerwall 1 (remember those original curved cabinets?).  It now also incorporates inverters inside the cabinet.
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Hefaistos

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1204 on: October 10, 2019, 10:16:09 AM »
Each battery chemistry has its own sweet spot for battery degradation, typically around the middle of the SOC at a cell level. As I understand it, close to 100% SOC is usually harmful to the battery. But then again Bruce is charging to 99%, not 100%. That may be the difference of hundreds of cycles,

Also as Sigmetnow points out, the battery chemistry in Powerwalls might be completely different from automotive batteries. It makes all the sense in the world. The specific chemistry of these batteries was chosen with Powerwall use in mind, not driving. It may be that the sweet spot of Bruce's batteries is right at 99%.

Or it may be that what is displayed as 100% is actually only 90% or so of the physical capacity. Why should consumers even know about things that the producer anyway has decided is out of bounds?

NeilT

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1205 on: October 10, 2019, 01:37:01 PM »
Regardless of the chemistry, the determination of cycle number, for Li batteries is the depth of discharge.  As Archimid says and I have posted limks to more than once, that cycle barrier is around 50% SOC.  The gateway to deep cycle is around 40%.

The lower you go, the closer you come to a full cycle.

The other determination is heat.  The largest amount of heat generated is in the last 10% of charge, or over 90%.  This is because, over 50%, the battery resists charge and starts to generate heat. You need a very good cooling system to take that last 10% without impact plus a charger which is highly sensitive to charge amps and heat effect.

Current chemistry Li batteries vary from one type to another, but they all suffer from deep discharge cycling.  The number of cycles varies depending on the chemistry, but the range is known.  It is 500 to 2000.

Until the new Tesla formula, with many more cycles, arrives, that is the barrier.

However, the good news is that charging from 40% to 90% only incurs a part cycle.  Which can change the charging from hundreds to tens of thousands.

The information is out there, no point in linking it again.
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Tor Bejnar

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1206 on: October 10, 2019, 05:31:03 PM »
Are there phone chargers that will 'unplug' the phone (or phones that will 'unplug' from the charger) when the charge reaches 90% (when set for this 'option')?  And a 'special' alarm on the phone when it reaches 40%?
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NeilT

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1207 on: October 10, 2019, 06:12:39 PM »
Not in the OS, but I did find two apps. One charge limiter and one notifier.

These were Android.  There is a simple rule of thumb.  If you want battery life and longevity, don't buy apple.  Unless you use your phone for 5 minutes of calls a day and don't browse on it.

No idea how they work.

I buy very large phones which have massive batteries and usually end the day over 50%.  The least used is usually 70% or more.  I charge to full every night.

It is 5pm and I'm looking at my second phone, it has 92% battery left.

My batteries tend to last 4 years or so.  Or, quite often, longer than the phone.
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TerryM

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1208 on: October 10, 2019, 10:56:49 PM »
Neil
Perhaps a more honest metric might be the usable Wh available in a particular rechargeable battery?
ie A 100 KWh battery that's designed to operate between a 40% charge and a 90% charge might be designated as having a usable range of 50 KWh, where another battery designed to operate between a 50% charge and an 80% charge could be marketed as having a usable charge of 30 KWh.


It would certainly make comparative shopping much easier. :)


Another metric that would be useful would be the percentage of energy required to charge a particular battery.
ie. If it requires 55KWh to charge a Usable Range 50KWh, then the battery could be said to have a 90% efficiency rating.
I believe something similar to my "efficiency rating" is available, but it's usually well hidden in the small print.


Terry

Archimid

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1209 on: October 11, 2019, 04:53:56 AM »
The Powerwall 2 has 14 kWh batteries with 13.5 kWh usable*. I'll assume .25 kWh is the top reserve and .25 kWh the bottom reserve. This means that when the Powerwall 2 app says it is charged to 100%, in reality, it is charged to 98%. When the app says 99% charged the actual charge is 97%.

Please see the following chart for a generic li+ battery:



If the batteries are not charged to their maximum capacity they last much longer. From the image it can be inferred that if the max voltage is limited to lower voltages, the line straightens asymptotically to the horizontal but for fewer gains than the initial voltage limits. This analysis excludes all other failure modes.

Tesla already took the big savings away by limiting the usable max voltage, but there may be significant cycles to gain by using a lower maximum charge.

However, the behavior of the batteries at lower charge must also be accounted for before overriding installation settings.  Although I'm sure that, in general, a lower max charge is better, these batteries are highly customized for their task. The additives for these batteries, the BMS and the hardware surrounding the batteries have been highly optimized.

*Powerwall 2 spec sheet: https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/pdfs/powerwall/Powerwall%202_AC_Datasheet_en_northamerica.pdf
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NeilT

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1210 on: October 11, 2019, 04:02:00 PM »
The top 10% is a killer due to heat.  Dropping to the first 10% is a killer due to chemistry of the cells under low SOC and high drain.

The top 10% can be alleviated by very aggressive BMS cooling systems.

The low SOC is far more tricky as the damage doesn't just occur when charging, it is an inherent part of discharging the battery to that level.

Take your mobile and run it out of power, put it in a drawer and leave it for a year or two. You will find that the RTC on the phone has totally discharged the battery.

Open your phone and you will find a swollen battery which can never be charged again.

Chemistry.  No charge required.

Active BMS is a learning process.  Charging warm at low levels, cooling at high levels, aggressive voltage and ampage regulation; all help.

But the physics and the chemistry of the underelying cells does not change, no matter how smart your system is.

This is why the new chemistry postulated by Tesla could be a game changer.  But we have to remember this is a moderate power solution, not a high power solution. Driving experience more akin to trying to crank your reluctant cat in the depths of winter using a leisure battery.
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sidd

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1211 on: October 11, 2019, 10:50:54 PM »
Re:  crank your reluctant cat in the depths of winter

This typo made me laugh out loud enuf that the neighbour's cat woke up and leapt back over the fence from a snoozing start on my lap.

The scratches she left are ugly, but not particularly painful. Luckily she missed my crotch.

sidd

Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1212 on: October 12, 2019, 02:58:45 AM »
cyberGRID software connects Tesla large-scale battery to Slovenian energy markets
Quote
cyberGRID’s award-winning cyberNOC software* met an important milestone today with its integration with Ngen’s Tesla 12MW/24MWh battery storage system located in Jesenice, Slovenia. This represents the largest battery system installed in Slovenia and one of the largest operational energy storage systems in Europe.
...
With regards to the integration of renewable energy, cyberGRID’s platform thus plays a pivotal role in EU-wide efforts towards decarbonisation. cyberNOC also reduces the risk of investment in large-scale battery storage systems by enabling the participation in various energy markets, not just the primary reserve. More specifically, cyberNOC can provide battery operators at C&I locations the opportunity to participate in markets such as the primary, secondary (aFRR) and tertiary (mFRR) control markets, offer grid stability, peak shaving services, frequency and voltage control, and community-level storage.
https://www.cyber-grid.com/cybergrid-software-connects-tesla-large-scale-battery-to-slovenian-energy-markets/
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Archimid

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1213 on: October 12, 2019, 11:45:39 AM »
They created a rechargeable world

https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/chemistry/

Quote
The 2019 Nobel Prize in Chemistry are awarded to John Goodenough, M. Stanley Whittingham and Akira Yoshino “for the development of lithium-ion batteries”. Through their work, they have created the right conditions for a wireless and fossil fuel-free society, and so brought the greatest benefit to humankind..



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NeilT

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1214 on: October 12, 2019, 08:14:36 PM »
Re:  crank your reluctant cat in the depths of winter

This typo made me laugh out loud enuf that the neighbour's cat woke up and leapt back over the fence from a snoozing start on my lap.

Glad I could provide some levity... My keyboard on my phone makes arbitrary decisions on what key I pressed....

In this case the UK QWERTY keyboard does actually have r and t side by side.....
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Robert A. Heinlein

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1215 on: October 12, 2019, 10:00:48 PM »
...
In this case the UK QWERTY keyboard does actually have r and t side by side.....
And you expect us to take your word for it that you actually use a keyboard with the UK QWERTY set up‽   :o ::) :P :)
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NeilT

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1216 on: October 13, 2019, 12:31:34 PM »
No, I expect you to be Skeptical and check....

Sadly, on my stock Android browser, the smilies above don't work.....
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Archimid

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1217 on: November 03, 2019, 06:25:27 PM »
Giant water battery helps university cut energy costs by 40 per cent

https://www.smh.com.au/national/queensland/giant-solar-battery-helps-university-cut-energy-costs-by-40-per-cent-20191103-p5370v.html


Quote
A giant chilled water-battery is using the solar energy generated by 6000 solar panels on top of roofs at the University of the Sunshine Coast to chill water and save 40 per cent of airconditioning costs.

The idea has been so successful it will cut the airconditioning costs of the entire university and save $100 million within the next 25 years, while reducing emissions.

The details are sparse but the technology sounds intriguing.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

blumenkraft

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1218 on: November 03, 2019, 07:18:02 PM »
Revolutionary New Lithium Ion Battery Technology - Zero to 200 miles in 5 minutes?


blumenkraft

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1219 on: November 09, 2019, 07:38:57 PM »
Carbon Dioxide Battery Breakthrough


SteveMDFP

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1220 on: November 09, 2019, 07:59:26 PM »
Carbon Dioxide Battery Breakthrough


For those who prefer articles over videos:

First fully rechargeable carbon dioxide battery with carbon neutrality
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/09/190926101331.htm[

reference to peer-reviewed article in the text there.

blumenkraft

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1221 on: November 10, 2019, 08:05:55 PM »
New Carbon Dioxide Battery Solutions


(Sorry for the redundancy, but this is really exciting!!)


TerryM

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1222 on: November 13, 2019, 09:59:52 PM »
The future for Li-Ion batteries looks rosy as just days after announcing an end to Bolivia's lithium "deal", Evo Morales the countries 1st indigenous leader was deposed and fled to Mexico.


Morales had never been popular with the European Elites who traditionally governed the impoverished country. He was hugely successful at raising over 50% of Bolivia's poor above the poverty level, and it was the poor that objected to selling cheap lithium ore rather than manufacturing and selling batteries. This however could take years to develop and industry needs lithium now.


Since Bolivia's lithium will be primarily used in the manufacture of EVs, a greater good is assured. The fate of a Socialist Regime in a poor nation, and the future of some millions of impoverished indians is just one of the myriad costs of doing business in today's fast paced marketplace. :'(


https://newspunch.com/bolivian-coup-few-days-after-morales-blocked-lithium-deal/


Terry

oren

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1223 on: November 13, 2019, 10:09:58 PM »
To be clear, are you hinting that the Bolivia coup was a result of some conspiracy to reverse Morales' Lithium decision?

TerryM

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1224 on: November 14, 2019, 07:42:35 AM »
^^
To be totally & terminally terse - YES :)


No "conspiracy" required, simply another rather overt example of a coup d'etat to wrest away the resources of another weak country for the enrichment of powerful oligarchs.


Are examples really required at a time when The Trumpster boasts openly of stealing Assad's oil, and Bank of England refuses to return Madero's gold deposits even as they covet his oil deposits? Evo left his country, unwilling to meet Gaddafi's fate or plunge his country into years of conflict.


General Butler understood that it was all a "racket"generations ago. More recently John Perkins' "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" is an excellent short read that offers many contemporary examples of legitimate democracies overthrown when their policies came in conflict with greed of international corporations.
Terry

oren

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1225 on: November 14, 2019, 07:56:52 AM »
 ::)

NeilT

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1226 on: November 14, 2019, 11:03:25 AM »
that offers many contemporary examples of legitimate democracies overthrown when their policies came in conflict with greed of international corporations.
Terry

As opposed to what happened when unrivalled communism took over a whole swathe of democracies and held them under a reign of totalitarian terror.

This has been going on ever since apes first gathered around the strongest male and will be going on long after I am dead.

The most interesting thing is that the only defence against this is full social openness through social awareness on the Internet.

Yet it is the complaints of those who need the openness, about ists and isms, that is allowing governments to shut down that information flow.

Wherever there is money to be made, there big money will follow and governments will interfere.

Lithium, today, because of the electrification of portable power, is the new Gold and Diamond rush.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1227 on: November 16, 2019, 02:55:47 AM »
Santa Barbara County, California.

Major Battery Storage Facility Planned in Goleta
AltaGas Project Would Add 60 Megawatts of Tesla Megapacks
Quote
Though the installation uses 41 of Tesla’s Megapacks, which are about 23 feet long, 8 feet high, and 5 feet wide, the installer is AltaGas, a Canadian company with U.S. headquarters in Virginia, which provides natural gas to several East Coast cities and has expanded into the “clean energy” field.
https://www.independent.com/2019/11/13/major-battery-storage-facility-planned-in-goleta/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1228 on: November 20, 2019, 08:16:32 PM »
Tesla's Powerpack farm in South Australia is about to get 50% larger
Quote
Tesla’s big battery in South Australia, which was conceived following a bet between billionaires Mike Cannon-Brookes and Elon Musk to help the region with its energy troubles, is about to get a lot bigger. In a recent press release, Neoen confirmed that the Hornsdale Power Reserve will be receiving a 50 MW/64.5 MWh expansion, resulting in the world’s largest lithium-ion battery growing by another 50%.

The expansion of the massive Tesla Powerpack farm will allow the battery installation to expand its services to providing digital or “virtual” inertia to the grid. This is a key service that, prior to the impending Powerpack expansion, was delivered only by synchronous machines, which are usually powered by coal, gas, or hydro. Once completed, the 50 MW/64.5 MWh addition will be capable of providing 3,000 “megawatt seconds,” or 50% of the state’s inertia requirements.

While the initial installation of the Hornsdale Power Reserve was driven primarily by the efforts of Tesla CEO Elon Musk and fellow billionaire Mike Cannon-Brookes, the expansion of the South Australia big battery is poised to receive the full backing of the local government. The South Australian government, for one, is committing AUD 3 million (USD 2 million) to the project annually for five years in grant funding through its Grid-Scale Storage Fund. ...
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-powerpack-farm-south-australia-50-percent-expansion/

Image below from the Hyperchange video in the article.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1229 on: December 17, 2019, 09:48:08 PM »
ENERGY STORAGE DEMAND IN AFRICA
Quote
There are more than 1.2 billion people in Africa, and there is a huge and growing need for better power supply resources
...
On the 9th of this month, for the first time ever, South Africa’s national power utility company Eskom implemented Stage 6 Load shedding in which they had to shed a load of 6,000 MW to stabilise the grid

Eskom issued a statement saying that due to unplanned breakdowns at some of its power stations totalling 12 465 MW and continuous rains which have impacted coal handling and operations, Eskom needed to carry out a loadshedding programme to prevent a national blackout

6,000 MW means a lot of unhappy consumers

To put this into perspective, taking out 6,000 MW is equivalent to switching off the whole of Nigeria, Zambia, and Zimbabwe’s available power generation capacity combined.
...
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1206873060415963136.html

An opportunity for Tesla: ”As of 2 December 2019 Tesla Powerwalls are finally available to order nationwide in South Africa after a very long wait”...
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1230 on: December 26, 2019, 05:22:08 PM »
Tesla patents new chemistry for better, longer-lasting and cheaper batteries
Quote
Tesla has been filing new battery patents as it has also been making moves toward building its own battery cells.

Earlier this year, Tesla CEO Elon Musk said that they built Model 3 to last as long as a commercial truck, a million miles, and the battery modules should last between 300,000 miles and 500,000 miles.  However, the CEO claimed that Tesla has a new battery coming up next year that will last a million miles.
...
The patent filed by Tesla’s battery research group mentions that the technology would be useful for both electric vehicles and grid-storage.

Interestingly, Tesla has been rumored to be switching to NCM battery cells for Chinese Model 3 vehicles....
https://electrek.co/2019/12/26/tesla-patents-battery-chemistry-cheaper/

What’s next?  Why not different battery modules, each containing cells with a selected chemistry.  Build [choose] your battery and choose your Battery Management Software to perform best for your location, charging, and driving style....
« Last Edit: December 26, 2019, 06:03:06 PM by Sigmetnow »
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Bruce Steele

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1231 on: December 26, 2019, 06:18:09 PM »
Sig, the powerwall app. is a great teaching tool to get your brain around watts and kilowatts. If you watch carefully you can see what every appliance , toaster, hot plate, or furnace fan uses in watts.
You can focus on how to effectively change your power uses.  You can’t however manage the batteries in the powerwall itself. The powerwall app could be adapted for that use along with better information about how to best maintain battery life but Tesla would need to allow the powerwall owner to adjust settings like percent fill capacity ,or rate of charge.
 I don’t have any information on what use pattern would maximize the life of my batteries. If you could pull some levers over at Tesla and get them to produce a tutorial “ how to take care of Tesla batteries” that would be nice.

TerryM

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1232 on: December 27, 2019, 06:41:44 PM »
Bruce
If you can ascertain the battery chemistry, this site (not this page) has tutorials on the best charging/discharging rates for various batteries.
As I understand it Tesla uses different chemistries for different uses, but the cells themselves are not specifically for Tesla products.


https://www.batteryspace.com/LiFePO4/LiFeMnPO4-Batteries.aspx


Watt meters are now <$20.00, my aged meter cost >$400.00 - ain't life wonderful!
As I understand it each chemistry has specific charge rates that optimize longevity.


Best of luck
Terry

Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1233 on: December 28, 2019, 08:01:32 PM »
Sig, the powerwall app. is a great teaching tool to get your brain around watts and kilowatts. If you watch carefully you can see what every appliance , toaster, hot plate, or furnace fan uses in watts.
You can focus on how to effectively change your power uses.  You can’t however manage the batteries in the powerwall itself. The powerwall app could be adapted for that use along with better information about how to best maintain battery life but Tesla would need to allow the powerwall owner to adjust settings like percent fill capacity ,or rate of charge.
 I don’t have any information on what use pattern would maximize the life of my batteries. If you could pull some levers over at Tesla and get them to produce a tutorial “ how to take care of Tesla batteries” that would be nice.

Bruce, yes, AFAIK, the Powerwall’s software optimizes its performance, and the main override is Tesla’s “Storm watch” (“Fire watch,” etc.), which charges the battery to 100% only when a total grid outage looks likely.

I posted here about the update to the Tesla car app that provides guidance as to the best charge levels for everyday vs. trip planning:
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2686.msg238666.html#msg238666

I did find this page describing Powerwall software, which you probably already know about:
https://www.tesla.com/support/energy/powerwall/mobile-app/software-updates

Tesla seems pretty sure they know what’s best for their batteries. ;)
Quote
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1234 on: January 22, 2020, 05:17:26 PM »
Elon Musk: Tesla acquisition of Maxwell is going to have a very big impact on batteries
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On the Tesla Third Row podcast, the CEO said that the advancements in Li-ion battery technology have made ultra-capacitors unnecessary for electric vehicles.

Instead, Musk said that Tesla is looking into using several of Maxwell’s battery technologies.

The CEO said that it’s going to be a “big deal” and that it could have a “very big impact” on their business....
https://electrek.co/2020/01/21/tesla-acquisition-maxwell-big-impact-battery-elon-musk/
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Tor Bejnar

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1235 on: January 22, 2020, 06:46:51 PM »
^^
That sure was a teaser!  Your report, Sig, is about as long as the original!
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1236 on: January 22, 2020, 07:20:49 PM »
^^
That sure was a teaser!  Your report, Sig, is about as long as the original!

It seems one quote or a tweet is sufficient to generate an article these days. ;D
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Tor Bejnar

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1237 on: January 22, 2020, 08:19:51 PM »
Not knowing much about capacitors (yeah, less than even that), I had this idea the moment after I heard that Tesla bought Maxwell - that one could load up a (future 1,000 km range) EV's capacitors really fast (like in 5 minutes - "megacharge"!), then get the car back on the road, and have the capacitors then, at near-optimum rates, charge up the battery.

Probably anybody who actually knows something about capacitors would know my idea is bunk.  Musk said in that long interview that he's hyper-rational - he compares his ideas with known physics before proceeding.  I just don't know the physics.
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1238 on: January 22, 2020, 08:31:06 PM »
Not knowing much about capacitors (yeah, less than even that), I had this idea the moment after I heard that Tesla bought Maxwell - that one could load up a (future 1,000 km range) EV's capacitors really fast (like in 5 minutes - "megacharge"!), then get the car back on the road, and have the capacitors then, at near-optimum rates, charge up the battery.

Same!

Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1239 on: January 22, 2020, 08:42:09 PM »
Not knowing much about capacitors (yeah, less than even that), I had this idea the moment after I heard that Tesla bought Maxwell - that one could load up a (future 1,000 km range) EV's capacitors really fast (like in 5 minutes - "megacharge"!), then get the car back on the road, and have the capacitors then, at near-optimum rates, charge up the battery.

Same!

It just seems so... logical!  But maybe increasingly fast battery charging brings it close to the time required to safely charge such a capacitor. I look forward to learning why it doesn’t work.  Maybe in Tesla’s upcoming battery and drive train investor day?  ;)
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1240 on: January 22, 2020, 09:03:46 PM »
Not knowing much about capacitors (yeah, less than even that), I had this idea the moment after I heard that Tesla bought Maxwell - that one could load up a (future 1,000 km range) EV's capacitors really fast (like in 5 minutes - "megacharge"!), then get the car back on the road, and have the capacitors then, at near-optimum rates, charge up the battery.

Same!

It just seems so... logical!  But maybe increasingly fast battery charging brings it close to the time required to safely charge such a capacitor. I look forward to learning why it doesn’t work.  Maybe in Tesla’s upcoming battery and drive train investor day?  ;)

It may be as simple as not being cost effective. Totally apart from the capacitors themselves, the connectors, conductors, contactors, IGBTs and fuses for, say, a couple thousand amps or more at 400V have got to be bulky, heavy and expensive.

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1241 on: January 22, 2020, 09:49:34 PM »
For a car, yes.  For a Semi?  Different order of magnitude?
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1242 on: January 23, 2020, 03:14:25 AM »
Not knowing much about capacitors (yeah, less than even that), I had this idea the moment after I heard that Tesla bought Maxwell - that one could load up a (future 1,000 km range) EV's capacitors really fast (like in 5 minutes - "megacharge"!), then get the car back on the road, and have the capacitors then, at near-optimum rates, charge up the battery.

Probably anybody who actually knows something about capacitors would know my idea is bunk.  Musk said in that long interview that he's hyper-rational - he compares his ideas with known physics before proceeding.  I just don't know the physics.
Ir's an impractical idea for several reasons.
The capacitors add weight and cost but as described do not add total charging capacity. They are just used as a buffer to pass the energy to the batteries. As the main limiting factor for EVs is the high weight and cost of batteries, this is not workable.
An alternative idea is to use capacitors instead of or in addition to the battery. so the charge in the capacitor is used in parallel to the charge in the battery, at times when it is useful to do so (e.g. during sharp acceleration, super-hard regen braking or during short charging).
The problem with using capacitors as a complement to a battery is the physics. A quick look in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercapacitor#Specific_energy_and_specific_power shows that
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As of 2013 commercial specific energies range from around 0.5 to 15 Wh/kg. For comparison, an aluminum electrolytic capacitor stores typically 0.01 to 0.3 Wh/kg, while a conventional lead-acid battery stores typically 30 to 40 Wh/kg and modern lithium-ion batteries 100 to 265 Wh/kg. Supercapacitors can therefore store 10 to 100 times more energy than electrolytic capacitors, but only one tenth as much as batteries.
So for energy storage where weight is a consideration supercapacitors are not very useful. However in applications where a high power is desired and weight is less of an issue supercapacitors have the physical ability to be useful (not sure about cost).
For example, in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercapacitor#Transport it says:
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Maxwell Technologies, an American supercapacitor-maker, claimed that more than 20,000 hybrid buses use the devices to increase acceleration, particularly in China. Guangzhou, In 2014 China began using trams powered with supercapacitors that are recharged in 30 seconds by a device positioned between the rails, storing power to run the tram for up to 4 km — more than enough to reach the next stop, where the cycle can be repeated.
For an E-Semi I don't think supercapacitors can be very useful, as the weight of the battery is a very important consideration (the limiting factor for increasing range). However for buses and trams that have short routes and require rapid charging, supercapacitors could be quite useful.

While writing the above it occurred to me that the original idea could have some use in an imaginary scenario where a car can be charged for a few seconds every few minutes (let's say every intersection in a city) by some wireless method or a flexible contact. The car would take the charge into its capacitors, charge the batteries to empty the capacitors, and be ready for the next rapid burst. However I cannot see this as workable in a real-life scenario.

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1243 on: January 23, 2020, 05:07:29 AM »
Thanks, Oren.
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1244 on: January 23, 2020, 10:39:56 AM »
Oren, I was considering the supercapacitors for the semi as a regen buffer because regen on a Semi under hard breaking will need somewhere to go.  Current batteries simply cannot take it.
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1245 on: January 23, 2020, 10:40:33 AM »
Tear apart a solar lawn lamp and see how the capacitor is used to charge the battery. :)


Watch out, capacitors can bite!
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1246 on: January 23, 2020, 11:21:15 AM »
Thanks, Oren.

Yeah, plus one. Most enlightening post, Oren!

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1247 on: March 01, 2020, 02:52:50 PM »
This… looks important.

From the Youtube link:
Jeff Dahn (Tesla Battery Research) Talking Lithium Battery Additives
Published on Feb 28, 2020
Telling the tale on how important basic research into a seemingly benign topic can become crucial even after decades.
[The YouTube video notes has a link to Bill Reed's paper mentioned in the talk.]

Talk from February 28, 2020 at UBC in Vancouver, Canada



Quote
ValueAnalyst (@ValueAnalyst1) 2/29/20, 3:02 PM
MUST-WATCH
youtu.be/_85TDhS295M
https://twitter.com/valueanalyst1/status/1233844937877315584

- "On Sep. 6, 2019, we published this paper in JES: 'We conclude that cells of this type should be able to power an electric vehicle for over 1.6 million kilometers (1 million miles) and last at least two decades in grid energy storage"
- ... 24:40 is where it gets interesting ...
- "Generally two electrolyte additives are better than one, and three is better than two, and you have this huge space to work in. Optimizing electrolyte additives is a monumental, huge task."
"The cell had 97% capacity retention after 5300 cycles"
:o :o :o :o :o :o
"And if you have a 350-km electric vehicle, you would be driving 2.5 million kilometers (1.5 million miles) over that 20-year period. This is incredible. It's incredible."
"This is the worst-case scenario"

< TX 4 sharing. An excellent overview of Li-ion cell & #Battery #technology by Jeff Dahn. I have degrees in #chemistry & it was easy listening.  It shows how far ahead .@Tesla is
<< "What's most important here is that these cells will be suitable for grid-tied EVs" 8)
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1248 on: March 01, 2020, 06:45:14 PM »
So basically, battery longevity has been solved. Now it is just a matter of making them for as cheap as possible as fast as possible.
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1249 on: March 02, 2020, 01:08:39 AM »
They also need more power density.  But this will come in time.

Also it needs to be practical and cheap to manufacture in volume.
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