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Author Topic: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution  (Read 217421 times)

Bruce Steele

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1200 on: October 09, 2019, 10:01:17 PM »
Sig, One of the requirements for a powerwall install is a WiFi connection because the powerwall actively communicates with ( tesla? PG&E ? ) It tracks your use of the powerwall because that is a condition of the rebate . It can take over your powerwall and use it’s energy if you sign an agreement for Tesla to use your power. I must be nuts because I agreed and the installer said “ nobody else ever agreed “ that he installed.
 Bottom line is powerwall kinda runs with assistance from Tesla?  Do you know if it can be programmed to charge 45-85% like Archimid suggested ? Do you think it would help save battery life?

Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1201 on: October 10, 2019, 02:12:38 AM »
Sig, One of the requirements for a powerwall install is a WiFi connection because the powerwall actively communicates with ( tesla? PG&E ? ) It tracks your use of the powerwall because that is a condition of the rebate . It can take over your powerwall and use it’s energy if you sign an agreement for Tesla to use your power. I must be nuts because I agreed and the installer said “ nobody else ever agreed “ that he installed.
 Bottom line is powerwall kinda runs with assistance from Tesla?  Do you know if it can be programmed to charge 45-85% like Archimid suggested ? Do you think it would help save battery life?

I would think Tesla’s programming would be designed to give the best results.  Remember, Powerwall battery chemistry is different than that for the cars — because the daily cycling and use is different — so don’t base your decision on what you’ve read about car battery packs.  But if you find a feature you really think would be helpful, give Elon a tweet.  If he thinks it’s a good idea, he’ll do it.  :)
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Archimid

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1202 on: October 10, 2019, 03:50:57 AM »
Each battery chemistry has its own sweet spot for battery degradation, typically around the middle of the SOC at a cell level. As I understand it, close to 100% SOC is usually harmful to the battery. But then again Bruce is charging to 99%, not 100%. That may be the difference of hundreds of cycles,

Also as Sigmetnow points out, the battery chemistry in Powerwalls might be completely different from automotive batteries. It makes all the sense in the world. The specific chemistry of these batteries was chosen with Powerwall use in mind, not driving. It may be that the sweet spot of Bruce's batteries is right at 99%.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1203 on: October 10, 2019, 04:06:49 AM »
...
Also as Sigmetnow points out, the battery chemistry in Powerwalls might be completely different from automotive batteries. It makes all the sense in the world. The specific chemistry of these batteries was chosen with Powerwall use in mind, not driving. It may be that the sweet spot of Bruce's batteries is right at 99%.

Powerwall 2 uses different chemistry from even Powerwall 1 (remember those original curved cabinets?).  It now also incorporates inverters inside the cabinet.
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Hefaistos

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1204 on: October 10, 2019, 10:16:09 AM »
Each battery chemistry has its own sweet spot for battery degradation, typically around the middle of the SOC at a cell level. As I understand it, close to 100% SOC is usually harmful to the battery. But then again Bruce is charging to 99%, not 100%. That may be the difference of hundreds of cycles,

Also as Sigmetnow points out, the battery chemistry in Powerwalls might be completely different from automotive batteries. It makes all the sense in the world. The specific chemistry of these batteries was chosen with Powerwall use in mind, not driving. It may be that the sweet spot of Bruce's batteries is right at 99%.

Or it may be that what is displayed as 100% is actually only 90% or so of the physical capacity. Why should consumers even know about things that the producer anyway has decided is out of bounds?

NeilT

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1205 on: October 10, 2019, 01:37:01 PM »
Regardless of the chemistry, the determination of cycle number, for Li batteries is the depth of discharge.  As Archimid says and I have posted limks to more than once, that cycle barrier is around 50% SOC.  The gateway to deep cycle is around 40%.

The lower you go, the closer you come to a full cycle.

The other determination is heat.  The largest amount of heat generated is in the last 10% of charge, or over 90%.  This is because, over 50%, the battery resists charge and starts to generate heat. You need a very good cooling system to take that last 10% without impact plus a charger which is highly sensitive to charge amps and heat effect.

Current chemistry Li batteries vary from one type to another, but they all suffer from deep discharge cycling.  The number of cycles varies depending on the chemistry, but the range is known.  It is 500 to 2000.

Until the new Tesla formula, with many more cycles, arrives, that is the barrier.

However, the good news is that charging from 40% to 90% only incurs a part cycle.  Which can change the charging from hundreds to tens of thousands.

The information is out there, no point in linking it again.
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Tor Bejnar

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1206 on: October 10, 2019, 05:31:03 PM »
Are there phone chargers that will 'unplug' the phone (or phones that will 'unplug' from the charger) when the charge reaches 90% (when set for this 'option')?  And a 'special' alarm on the phone when it reaches 40%?
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NeilT

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1207 on: October 10, 2019, 06:12:39 PM »
Not in the OS, but I did find two apps. One charge limiter and one notifier.

These were Android.  There is a simple rule of thumb.  If you want battery life and longevity, don't buy apple.  Unless you use your phone for 5 minutes of calls a day and don't browse on it.

No idea how they work.

I buy very large phones which have massive batteries and usually end the day over 50%.  The least used is usually 70% or more.  I charge to full every night.

It is 5pm and I'm looking at my second phone, it has 92% battery left.

My batteries tend to last 4 years or so.  Or, quite often, longer than the phone.
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TerryM

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1208 on: October 10, 2019, 10:56:49 PM »
Neil
Perhaps a more honest metric might be the usable Wh available in a particular rechargeable battery?
ie A 100 KWh battery that's designed to operate between a 40% charge and a 90% charge might be designated as having a usable range of 50 KWh, where another battery designed to operate between a 50% charge and an 80% charge could be marketed as having a usable charge of 30 KWh.


It would certainly make comparative shopping much easier. :)


Another metric that would be useful would be the percentage of energy required to charge a particular battery.
ie. If it requires 55KWh to charge a Usable Range 50KWh, then the battery could be said to have a 90% efficiency rating.
I believe something similar to my "efficiency rating" is available, but it's usually well hidden in the small print.


Terry

Archimid

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1209 on: October 11, 2019, 04:53:56 AM »
The Powerwall 2 has 14 kWh batteries with 13.5 kWh usable*. I'll assume .25 kWh is the top reserve and .25 kWh the bottom reserve. This means that when the Powerwall 2 app says it is charged to 100%, in reality, it is charged to 98%. When the app says 99% charged the actual charge is 97%.

Please see the following chart for a generic li+ battery:



If the batteries are not charged to their maximum capacity they last much longer. From the image it can be inferred that if the max voltage is limited to lower voltages, the line straightens asymptotically to the horizontal but for fewer gains than the initial voltage limits. This analysis excludes all other failure modes.

Tesla already took the big savings away by limiting the usable max voltage, but there may be significant cycles to gain by using a lower maximum charge.

However, the behavior of the batteries at lower charge must also be accounted for before overriding installation settings.  Although I'm sure that, in general, a lower max charge is better, these batteries are highly customized for their task. The additives for these batteries, the BMS and the hardware surrounding the batteries have been highly optimized.

*Powerwall 2 spec sheet: https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/pdfs/powerwall/Powerwall%202_AC_Datasheet_en_northamerica.pdf
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NeilT

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1210 on: October 11, 2019, 04:02:00 PM »
The top 10% is a killer due to heat.  Dropping to the first 10% is a killer due to chemistry of the cells under low SOC and high drain.

The top 10% can be alleviated by very aggressive BMS cooling systems.

The low SOC is far more tricky as the damage doesn't just occur when charging, it is an inherent part of discharging the battery to that level.

Take your mobile and run it out of power, put it in a drawer and leave it for a year or two. You will find that the RTC on the phone has totally discharged the battery.

Open your phone and you will find a swollen battery which can never be charged again.

Chemistry.  No charge required.

Active BMS is a learning process.  Charging warm at low levels, cooling at high levels, aggressive voltage and ampage regulation; all help.

But the physics and the chemistry of the underelying cells does not change, no matter how smart your system is.

This is why the new chemistry postulated by Tesla could be a game changer.  But we have to remember this is a moderate power solution, not a high power solution. Driving experience more akin to trying to crank your reluctant cat in the depths of winter using a leisure battery.
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sidd

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1211 on: October 11, 2019, 10:50:54 PM »
Re:  crank your reluctant cat in the depths of winter

This typo made me laugh out loud enuf that the neighbour's cat woke up and leapt back over the fence from a snoozing start on my lap.

The scratches she left are ugly, but not particularly painful. Luckily she missed my crotch.

sidd

Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1212 on: October 12, 2019, 02:58:45 AM »
cyberGRID software connects Tesla large-scale battery to Slovenian energy markets
Quote
cyberGRID’s award-winning cyberNOC software* met an important milestone today with its integration with Ngen’s Tesla 12MW/24MWh battery storage system located in Jesenice, Slovenia. This represents the largest battery system installed in Slovenia and one of the largest operational energy storage systems in Europe.
...
With regards to the integration of renewable energy, cyberGRID’s platform thus plays a pivotal role in EU-wide efforts towards decarbonisation. cyberNOC also reduces the risk of investment in large-scale battery storage systems by enabling the participation in various energy markets, not just the primary reserve. More specifically, cyberNOC can provide battery operators at C&I locations the opportunity to participate in markets such as the primary, secondary (aFRR) and tertiary (mFRR) control markets, offer grid stability, peak shaving services, frequency and voltage control, and community-level storage.
https://www.cyber-grid.com/cybergrid-software-connects-tesla-large-scale-battery-to-slovenian-energy-markets/
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Archimid

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1213 on: October 12, 2019, 11:45:39 AM »
They created a rechargeable world

https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/chemistry/

Quote
The 2019 Nobel Prize in Chemistry are awarded to John Goodenough, M. Stanley Whittingham and Akira Yoshino “for the development of lithium-ion batteries”. Through their work, they have created the right conditions for a wireless and fossil fuel-free society, and so brought the greatest benefit to humankind..



I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

NeilT

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1214 on: October 12, 2019, 08:14:36 PM »
Re:  crank your reluctant cat in the depths of winter

This typo made me laugh out loud enuf that the neighbour's cat woke up and leapt back over the fence from a snoozing start on my lap.

Glad I could provide some levity... My keyboard on my phone makes arbitrary decisions on what key I pressed....

In this case the UK QWERTY keyboard does actually have r and t side by side.....
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

Robert A. Heinlein

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1215 on: October 12, 2019, 10:00:48 PM »
...
In this case the UK QWERTY keyboard does actually have r and t side by side.....
And you expect us to take your word for it that you actually use a keyboard with the UK QWERTY set up‽   :o ::) :P :)
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NeilT

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1216 on: October 13, 2019, 12:31:34 PM »
No, I expect you to be Skeptical and check....

Sadly, on my stock Android browser, the smilies above don't work.....
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Archimid

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1217 on: November 03, 2019, 06:25:27 PM »
Giant water battery helps university cut energy costs by 40 per cent

https://www.smh.com.au/national/queensland/giant-solar-battery-helps-university-cut-energy-costs-by-40-per-cent-20191103-p5370v.html


Quote
A giant chilled water-battery is using the solar energy generated by 6000 solar panels on top of roofs at the University of the Sunshine Coast to chill water and save 40 per cent of airconditioning costs.

The idea has been so successful it will cut the airconditioning costs of the entire university and save $100 million within the next 25 years, while reducing emissions.

The details are sparse but the technology sounds intriguing.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

blumenkraft

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1218 on: November 03, 2019, 07:18:02 PM »
Revolutionary New Lithium Ion Battery Technology - Zero to 200 miles in 5 minutes?

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blumenkraft

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1219 on: November 09, 2019, 07:38:57 PM »
Carbon Dioxide Battery Breakthrough

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SteveMDFP

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1220 on: November 09, 2019, 07:59:26 PM »
Carbon Dioxide Battery Breakthrough


For those who prefer articles over videos:

First fully rechargeable carbon dioxide battery with carbon neutrality
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/09/190926101331.htm[

reference to peer-reviewed article in the text there.

blumenkraft

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1221 on: November 10, 2019, 08:05:55 PM »
New Carbon Dioxide Battery Solutions


(Sorry for the redundancy, but this is really exciting!!)

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TerryM

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1222 on: November 13, 2019, 09:59:52 PM »
The future for Li-Ion batteries looks rosy as just days after announcing an end to Bolivia's lithium "deal", Evo Morales the countries 1st indigenous leader was deposed and fled to Mexico.


Morales had never been popular with the European Elites who traditionally governed the impoverished country. He was hugely successful at raising over 50% of Bolivia's poor above the poverty level, and it was the poor that objected to selling cheap lithium ore rather than manufacturing and selling batteries. This however could take years to develop and industry needs lithium now.


Since Bolivia's lithium will be primarily used in the manufacture of EVs, a greater good is assured. The fate of a Socialist Regime in a poor nation, and the future of some millions of impoverished indians is just one of the myriad costs of doing business in today's fast paced marketplace. :'(


https://newspunch.com/bolivian-coup-few-days-after-morales-blocked-lithium-deal/


Terry

oren

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1223 on: November 13, 2019, 10:09:58 PM »
To be clear, are you hinting that the Bolivia coup was a result of some conspiracy to reverse Morales' Lithium decision?

TerryM

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1224 on: November 14, 2019, 07:42:35 AM »
^^
To be totally & terminally terse - YES :)


No "conspiracy" required, simply another rather overt example of a coup d'etat to wrest away the resources of another weak country for the enrichment of powerful oligarchs.


Are examples really required at a time when The Trumpster boasts openly of stealing Assad's oil, and Bank of England refuses to return Madero's gold deposits even as they covet his oil deposits? Evo left his country, unwilling to meet Gaddafi's fate or plunge his country into years of conflict.


General Butler understood that it was all a "racket"generations ago. More recently John Perkins' "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" is an excellent short read that offers many contemporary examples of legitimate democracies overthrown when their policies came in conflict with greed of international corporations.
Terry

oren

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1225 on: November 14, 2019, 07:56:52 AM »
 ::)

NeilT

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1226 on: November 14, 2019, 11:03:25 AM »
that offers many contemporary examples of legitimate democracies overthrown when their policies came in conflict with greed of international corporations.
Terry

As opposed to what happened when unrivalled communism took over a whole swathe of democracies and held them under a reign of totalitarian terror.

This has been going on ever since apes first gathered around the strongest male and will be going on long after I am dead.

The most interesting thing is that the only defence against this is full social openness through social awareness on the Internet.

Yet it is the complaints of those who need the openness, about ists and isms, that is allowing governments to shut down that information flow.

Wherever there is money to be made, there big money will follow and governments will interfere.

Lithium, today, because of the electrification of portable power, is the new Gold and Diamond rush.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1227 on: November 16, 2019, 02:55:47 AM »
Santa Barbara County, California.

Major Battery Storage Facility Planned in Goleta
AltaGas Project Would Add 60 Megawatts of Tesla Megapacks
Quote
Though the installation uses 41 of Tesla’s Megapacks, which are about 23 feet long, 8 feet high, and 5 feet wide, the installer is AltaGas, a Canadian company with U.S. headquarters in Virginia, which provides natural gas to several East Coast cities and has expanded into the “clean energy” field.
https://www.independent.com/2019/11/13/major-battery-storage-facility-planned-in-goleta/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1228 on: November 20, 2019, 08:16:32 PM »
Tesla's Powerpack farm in South Australia is about to get 50% larger
Quote
Tesla’s big battery in South Australia, which was conceived following a bet between billionaires Mike Cannon-Brookes and Elon Musk to help the region with its energy troubles, is about to get a lot bigger. In a recent press release, Neoen confirmed that the Hornsdale Power Reserve will be receiving a 50 MW/64.5 MWh expansion, resulting in the world’s largest lithium-ion battery growing by another 50%.

The expansion of the massive Tesla Powerpack farm will allow the battery installation to expand its services to providing digital or “virtual” inertia to the grid. This is a key service that, prior to the impending Powerpack expansion, was delivered only by synchronous machines, which are usually powered by coal, gas, or hydro. Once completed, the 50 MW/64.5 MWh addition will be capable of providing 3,000 “megawatt seconds,” or 50% of the state’s inertia requirements.

While the initial installation of the Hornsdale Power Reserve was driven primarily by the efforts of Tesla CEO Elon Musk and fellow billionaire Mike Cannon-Brookes, the expansion of the South Australia big battery is poised to receive the full backing of the local government. The South Australian government, for one, is committing AUD 3 million (USD 2 million) to the project annually for five years in grant funding through its Grid-Scale Storage Fund. ...
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-powerpack-farm-south-australia-50-percent-expansion/

Image below from the Hyperchange video in the article.
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