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Author Topic: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution  (Read 249610 times)

nanning

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1250 on: March 02, 2020, 06:48:40 AM »
They also need more power density.  But this will come in time.

Also it needs to be practical and cheap to manufacture in volume.

AND long term sustainable in mining and production.
AND take care of the poor humans in the mining of resources.

I sincerely wish 'they' will not ravage the ocean floor or living nature on the surface.

In my observation:
Most batteries will be used for high-energy private luxury vehicles for rich people in rich countries.
That is impeding a global uniform switch to renewables. No long term plan or empathy: Green BAU and continuing massive inequality.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

KiwiGriff

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1251 on: March 02, 2020, 09:47:26 AM »
Gee nanning sometimes i wonder what world you live in.
E scooters, e bikes, e buses, e rickshaw and electric city cars .
The world is a big place electric transport will change it for the better for all of us not just the rich in the developed world .
https://dir.indiamart.com/impcat/electric-rickshaw.html
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nanning

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1252 on: March 02, 2020, 11:33:01 AM »
I disagree KiwiGriff. Green BAU is not the right path.

The right path means using much less energy and other inconvenient choices for rich people. How many solar arrays and windturbines just for rich people's surplus private luxury energy requirements? I use 35 KWh/wk and I have a very old fridge.

According to the U.N. civilisation needs to fundamentally change the way it consumes and produces. The poor have no choice. The right path is for rich people to make sacrifices and radical changes. They have to start but are extremely unwilling to forgo of convenience, comfort and ease. They are unwilling to take personal responsibiliy.
Remind me, what's the world population's carbon- and ecological footprint per capita per country/wealth?
I want to see you people do what I have done. Take personal responsibility. Not half-way easy measures. Be poor. Have very low energy and water use. Use public transport or other shared transport. Stop showering every day. Stop going out for dinner. Stop with getting served. Do as much yourself as you can. Please stop with the terrible psyche-wrecking and empathy-blocking addiction to ease.

Green BAU is no solution, it is kicking the can down the road and continuing with the same unequal systems.
Some drool over a new luxury private car whilst others drool over a stale piece of bread.

How many poor people do you know personally? Group bubbles are dangerous and unseen. Don't be easy on yourself.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

NeilT

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1253 on: March 02, 2020, 12:33:01 PM »
Define rich people!

The average wage in Sri Lanka is $6 per day.

Trying to compare that with any 1st world country is patently ridiculous.  Trying to scale 1st world economies to that wage is ridiculous.

The average wage in the UK is roughly $160 per day.  The entire economy, price structure and equity is based on this.

Going on about "rich" people has to have a reference point and I don't know what yours is.  The only thing you can do in the UK on $6 a day is live rough and starve.

So let us have a reference point so we can have a sensible discussion.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1254 on: March 02, 2020, 04:54:37 PM »
Quote
The right path means using much less energy and other inconvenient choices for rich people. How many solar arrays and windturbines just for rich people's surplus private luxury energy requirements? I use 35 KWh/wk and I have a very old fridge.

The device you are using to read this message has a battery.   It has computer chips made from mined ores, and required energy to make.  Your refrigerator was made from mined materials.  You live in a large multi-room building that many of the world’s poor can only dream about — let alone having a refrigerator or internet access.  If everyone lived like you, and they didn’t go to work and use energy to make things and transport them, you would have nothing to keep in that refrigerator, nor any of the drugs and alcohol you are so fond of.  If no one had been “rich” enough to afford a “luxury” iPhone when they came out, you would not have the affordable device you are using today. 

You’re welcome.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

nanning

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1255 on: March 02, 2020, 04:55:03 PM »
@NeilT

You are poor if you have no affluence in your society i.e. you have no budget for anything apart from the very basics such as cheap home cooked food, little meat, heating your house/appartment, shared transport. No holidays and no car. Frugal out of necessity.
The monetary value of affluence is different in Sri Lanka than it is in e.g. The Netherlands. Do you know how much renting an appartment costs in the Netherlands compared to Sri Lanka? Their prices are lower for many foods and other stuff as well.

Def. You are rich when you are not poor.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

nanning

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1256 on: March 02, 2020, 05:02:20 PM »
@Sigmetnow

Somehow that kind of reasoning seems strangely familiar.

I know I'm not perfect but if everybody would live like me there would be no problems with carbon budgets anymore and habitat loss would stop. Deforestation would stop. Horrible treatment of animals would stop. Mowing the grass would stop. Having a pet would stop. Etcetera.

Having read the above, do you wanna compare our lifestyles in energy use, water use, carbon footprint, ecological footprint?
Do you see my point?
I have done my utmost to not be guilty for this existential mess we're in, and set a good example for others and then you taunt me.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1257 on: March 02, 2020, 05:06:08 PM »
...
I have done my outmost to not be guilty for this existential mess we're in, and set a good example for others and then you mock me.

I mock you for mocking others who are working hard (whether they realize it or not) to improve “this existential mess we're in.”  You chose your solution, others chose theirs.  Luckily, the world is made up of different kinds of people.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

nanning

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1258 on: March 02, 2020, 06:24:19 PM »
I haven't mocked others Sig.
Tell me, how are you improving this existential mess?

In this context, pointing out the bad behaviours and life styles of others is not the same as mocking others. I may be sarcastic sometimes but I don't like mocking and taunting when it's serious.

Sorry for my off-topic post.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

Ken Feldman

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1259 on: March 02, 2020, 07:08:18 PM »
If this carbon-silicon anode thing works out, say goodbye to ICEs within a few years.

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/EV-Battery-Breakthrough-Twice-The-Range-Five-Minutes-To-Charge.html

Quote
EV Battery Breakthrough: Twice The Range, Five Minutes To Charge
By Irina Slav - Feb 29, 2020

The amount of research being done into better batteries for electric cars is perhaps the clearest indication of how high the stakes are in the car world. Breakthrough after breakthrough comes from labs around the world, and the latest is among the most impressive: a new anode material that can increase a battery’s range twofold while greatly accelerating charging times.

Quote
silicon is not a new material for the battery-making industry. It has a much greater energy storage capacity than graphite—ten times as much, according to the news release of the KIST—but it is a lot less stable than graphite. This means that silicon, unlike graphite, expands and shrinks quickly during charge-discharge cycles, which affects that impressive storage capacity and shortens the life of the battery.

The KIST researchers solved this problem by drying the material. Literally. They mixed silicon and corn starch with water and then heated the mixture up using “a simple thermal process used for frying food” to seal the result, which was a carbon-silicon compound. The compound has displayed four times the energy storage capacity of graphite anodes. It has also made it possible to charge an EV battery to 80 percent in just five minutes. And it’s eco-friendly.

"We were able to develop carbon-silicon composite materials using common, everyday materials and simple mixing and thermal processes with no reactors," the lead researcher, Hun-Gi Jung said. "The simple processes we adopted and the composites with excellent properties that we developed are highly likely to be commercialized and mass-produced. The composites could be applied to lithium-ion batteries for electric vehicles and energy storage systems (ESSs)."

KiwiGriff

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1260 on: March 03, 2020, 11:21:07 AM »
do you wanna compare our lifestyles in energy use, water use, carbon footprint, ecological footprint?

Yeah sure. :) 8)

 I live like this because I prefer too the low impact is a byproduct.
Generate my own electricity from a solar system cobbled together from second hand parts.
Catch and use rainwater.
Have my own septic system that treats all waste to a high standard using biological agents. The water run off irrigates my orchard.
I run a car because it would be difficult to use public transport when there is none.
However I also off set any emissions with the hectares of native bush I own and care for including exclusion of the many introduced species that our ecology is not adapted for. I also have created and care for another 1/2 acre of garden based mostly on natives else were.
My home is a recycled house made almost entirely from untreated timber with a concrete roof . I prefer not to wear man made fibers.. wool, cotton and leather boots thanks.
Grow most my own food. Buy as many consumer items like this laptop, my clothiers, books  etc second hand as I can. Net zero and a positive impact on the local threatened ecology.

My impact is lower than yours nanning your water , waste streams and food supply probably use more energy than my car.
I also know I need people like Neil and Sig  running around on the  hamster wheel of modern industrial society for my lifestyle to be viable.
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nanning

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1261 on: March 03, 2020, 05:26:06 PM »
Very good!
You are in a very privileged situation. Many of the things you do are not possible for me. I rent an appartment. Stacked 4 high so my share of land use is ca. 20.5 m2. Not ownership. Not my land, just the little I use. With enough land property, your own house and enough money a lot is possible as you sketch. Your own little paradise/territory. I think you've 'won'.

Do you think 7.7 billion people could live like you do on Earth? Please think a bit about this.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

KiwiGriff

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1262 on: March 03, 2020, 09:31:04 PM »
I dont have a lot of money.
The cost of land, house and upgrades was a fraction of the cost of a small apartment in Auckland  city.

Battery's will change the lives in the developing world . One small solar panel and a battery gives you light. A little more gives you the ability to run a fridge and / or pump water .
As the demand for electric cars ramps up it will drive down the costs of storage battery's as well supply second hand ex car units easily adaptable for the developing worlds needs .
Just as we see container loads of worn out cars going to Somalia and other places to be rebuilt and recycled we will see container loads of used Leaf, Tesla and other car battery's being recycled by those in need.

Light refrigeration and pumped water are  major issues for  third world populations.
Cheap long lasting batteries along with solar will allow them to upgrade their lives  with out being extorted by large corporations and corrupt governments .
Sex should be friendly. Otherwise stick to mechanical toys;
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nanning

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1263 on: March 04, 2020, 06:50:15 AM »
Thank you for your response KiwiGriff.
I find your view interesting but very rosy e.g. "with out being extorted by large corporations and corrupt governments" and "ability to run a fridge". A fridge is expensive. If I'd had the money I would buy a new fridge because mine is gulping energy. But first I want more carpet for my concrete floor. Last month I got a second hand piece of vinyl to put in my very small kitchen so I can wipe up spillage from the floor.
I expected strong confirmation bias i.e. starting with the premisse that what you and people like you are doing is 'perfect' and not selfish. Most developed world rich people are blind to their privileged positition. Priviliged even in their own developed country.
Poor people are the majority and can only dream of a place like you own. Can you imagine that? We share the world so shouldn't we all have an equal piece 'of he pie'?
I could have what you have and much more if I hadn't bent my life path to less wealth and more equality. Sympathy with and empathy for all other people on Earth. To not go beyond your fair share. To see the folly of material accumulation. To behave like a global team. To not have more than others around me without sharing. To have an intact conscience and no guilt and doing the right thing. To care about others and not put yourself above them. Yes, our insanely fabricated labour society with its career ladder is not mandatory. You choose to belong to the (destructive inequality driving) normal or do your own thing. I did my own thing and it is a far better way and of far higher morality. Discipline and restraint. Imagine a sort of perfect and equal world and then live as if you were part of that. Set a good example against all prevailing opinions and measures of succes because it's the right thing to do. Multiply your life style and material needs and ownership of land and living nature with 7.7 billion.
Please understand that this is not personal KiwiGriff.

Well, I give you an easy way out for responding so you can conveniently ignore all of the above:
How far can you drive your private luxury electric car for my weekly energy use of 35 KWh/wk?

Re: solar electricity, fridge, water pump.
The developing world consists a.o. of extensive poor neighbourhoods in Lagos. High rises in Johannesburg. Refugees and refugees camps. Favela's. War zones. Many places with increasing severe weather crises. Increasing food and water shortages.

Somehow you think the global poor south are getting better off with new technology? Buy a second hand car? Buy a fridge? Pumping up water?
If only it were so easy.

I am not trying to put blame on people like you, but to make you see the errors of your privileged ways. The invisibility of privilege. The strong group behaviour and lack of empathy, unseen. The self-fulfilling wishful thinking. The blindness to the reality of everyday life for the vast majority who struggle day in day out. Don't forget the women and children. And the resources extraction for our developed world that ravage the Earth. Ravaging the Earth for more technology. More More More.
The correct sane answer is Less Less Less.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1264 on: March 04, 2020, 03:52:12 PM »
In 1 second, earth absorbs 1.22E17 Joules from sun. A fraction is enough to power civilization.

The amount of energy one uses is not the problem.  What matters is how one obtains that energy, and for what purpose it is used.  Enabing more sources of clean energy helps the world transition to a sustainable future for everyone — the less rich and the more poor. 

nanning, you are “rich” compared to the poorest you describe.  Do you feel guilty?  Why not give up your apartment, your refrigerator, and your internet device.  Would that help anyone?
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

nanning

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1265 on: March 04, 2020, 05:06:32 PM »
Sig, have you not understood the definitions of poor and rich I gave a couple of posts upthread?
And why don't you bring your 'good life' down to a standard everyone can enjoy. You know the word: Fair. You may not like it for some strange reason but I do set such a standard. You don't. You are privileged and you don't want to know about it, it seems.
I don't feel guilty because I've radically changed my life accordingly.

People like you are the drivers of economic growth. Drivers of this system that needs to change, people like you all over the world keep the extreme destruction and inequality of this system going.

What do you think will happen if rich people in the developed world started living like me? Then the system would have to change. And change to this system is paramount in this AGW/Biosphere collapse emergency. This existential mess. Please try to understand these inferences.

The normal systematic way of consumption/accumulation, the 'normal' in society is what rich people like you follow. Working you way up on the career and property/accumulation ladder: This is a choice! Perhaps now you can see that I set a good example because I've made much more independent and far better choices: Do not participate in/contribute to bad systems. Free yourself from wants and ladders.

You are very intelligent I think so you'll have the capacity to be truly independent and make different and better choices than the others, the followers. Others, the people that are acquiescing to whatever 'normal' prevails in current society, even when it's very destructive and not social. Ones eyes need to be opened and my alien perspective gives eyeopeners. Use me.

So Sigmetnow, why do you ask about me feeling guilty? Have you not understood anything from what I've written previously? Take home question: Are you truly honest with yourself? And with me?
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1266 on: March 04, 2020, 05:36:24 PM »
Quote
What do you think will happen if rich people in the developed world started living like me?

For starters, soon we would have no food, no refrigerators, and no internet devices.  And no power in our wall outlets.  Because no one is working. Can’t you see that?
« Last Edit: March 04, 2020, 06:03:13 PM by Sigmetnow »
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TerryM

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1267 on: March 04, 2020, 05:46:49 PM »

Sig
When a manufacturer of all things solar can't see his way clear to make any of his projects primarily solar powered, it becomes evident that capturing and utilizing a large percentage of the 1.22E17 Joules available simply isn't going to happen.

If capturing and utilizing solar energy on a large scale is too big a problem for the Mind of Musk, you may be premature in claiming that "The amount of energy one uses is not the problem."


Once the world's electrical needs are met by zero emission producers, the amount squandered won't add to the problem, but in our world this isn't likely to occur. Each Joule wasted is a Joule that will be replaced by whatever power producer we interface with.

If your bath is heated by 90% solar and 10% coal, you can't drain half the needed heated water and claim that this isn't a problem.

If you hadn't squandered your solar energy it would have gone back to the grid & cut the time that a peaker plant needed to run. If your grid were 100% emissions free, then the energy you wasted could have been utilized increasing the "greenness" of the other grids that yours was tied to.

Clouds of GHG might not be billowing from your solar panels, but somewhere upstream someone is choking on the smoke.
Terry

Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1268 on: March 04, 2020, 06:02:14 PM »
Quote
If your bath is heated by 90% solar and 10% coal, you can't drain half the needed heated water and claim that this isn't a problem.

90% solar is 90% better than 100% coal.  You are making perfect the enemy of the good. 

Tesla is moving us off Fossil Fuels.  The factories may not be perfectly sustainable yet, but so what?  If they invested in a completely green factory today, that’s hundreds of thousands fewer clean cars displacing ICE ones, and more drag on their finances at a time when they are emerging from survival mode.  Only TSLAQ wants Tesla to fail. The factories are designed to be sustainable.  And they will be, as the company prospers. 

Getting that that diesel truck off the road ASAP is more important than whether the e-truck that replaces it was made with totally clean energy.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2020, 06:09:41 PM by Sigmetnow »
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KiwiGriff

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1269 on: March 04, 2020, 07:40:09 PM »
Nonsense arguments from Terry .
How totally surprising /s/
We  either transition away from fossil fuels or we fuck this planet for our civilization.
We do not have the political will to do so immediately.
So we have to except a slow change over time.
Only a gibbering loon would attack Tesla because it has not been perfect when Tesla has measurably  had  more effect to speed this transition than almost any other company on this smegging planet .

Tesla's impact.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/960121/sales-of-all-electric-vehicles-worldwide-by-model/
https://mip.pmi.org/hornsdale-power-reserve

By gibbering loon I mean a climate change denier .
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TerryM

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1270 on: March 04, 2020, 08:05:44 PM »
Sig

"Only TSLAQ wants Tesla to fail."
Would be a fair comment if it was I that speculated in Musk's schemes.

How can you claim that Tesla's factories are "designed to be sustainable" when, in spite of many (sincere) promises none has approached sustainability? None of his Giggle Factories has ever even been completed! Even the mansion he recently sold never had a single solar panel to mar it's view of the Pacific.

My local Toyota Non-Gigafactory pops out 5-600,000 cars/year with little fuss and without having had to clear cut any of the beautiful secondary growth forests that we take so much pride in.
Snag  photo of Algonquin Park, or perhaps the forests around Lake Tahoe - they're all secondary forests from plantings after having been clear cut.

BTW
I'm not "Making an enemy of the good", I'm pointing out that claiming that wasting energy is good is in fact not good - it's bad.

As Musk ventures further into the realm of the American MIC he'll leave more of his erstwhile followers struggling to explain how this can possibly be part of his "Secret Mission".


Terry
I've no investment in any of the businesses mentioned above.

Ken Feldman

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1271 on: March 04, 2020, 10:51:22 PM »
General Motors had and EV day and announced their line of batteries to power the vehicles.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a31226611/gm-ultium-electric-vehicle-battery-revealed/

Quote
GM Unveils Battery with Capacity Twice as Big as Tesla’s

General Motors has finally revealed details of its ambitious plan to conquer the electric-vehicle market, including a massive 200.0-kWh battery for its GMC Hummer.

By Colin Beresford   Mar 4, 2020

Quote
GM’s Ultium batteries will offer battery capacities that range from 50.0 kWh to a massive 200.0 kWh. Although 50.0 kWh is a capacity seen on many electric vehicles today, 200 would be the first of its kind. Rivian, maker of the forthcoming R1T EV pickup and R1S EV SUV, has said that it'll offer a battery with a capacity of up to 135 kWh. Tesla’s biggest battery is 100.0 kWh, available in the Model S and Model X, which is one of the biggest batteries currently available.

That 200.0-kWh battery will only go into GM’s electric trucks, the Hummer SUT, Hummer SUV, and an electrified Chevrolet pickup. The huge battery, we approximate, is roughly 18 inches thick. GM estimates its biggest battery will give vehicles a range of up to 400 miles or more on a full charge.

Quote
It will be later this year that we first see the Ultium batteries in GM's vehicles, which will make their way throughout GM’s brands starting with the various forms of the Hummer EV, the Cadillac Lyriq and Escalade, a Buick EV, and eventually into 20 models by 2023—or so GM says.

nanning

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1272 on: March 05, 2020, 06:07:17 AM »
Nonsense arguments from Terry .
How totally surprising /s/
<snip>
Only a gibbering loon would attack Tesla
<snip>
By gibbering loon I mean a climate change denier .

KiwiGriff, it seems that you got a bit angry. it is wiser to not become emotional and uncivilized about this.
Sometimes you need to postpone and reread what you're about to post after a nice cuppa tea when you feel a bit angry. I know Terry to be very thoughtful and very smart and not use that kind of language.

Tesla has very good P.R. and marketing and gives customers dreams to cling to. A carfully built up commercial dream of course (for Tesla). Tesla is a corporation with a billionaire CEO. It removes living nature and have unsavory parts in their supply line. Be wary and critical.

Do you think 1 corporation from the U.S.A. can make the energy transition for the global economy/population? They don't make cheap cars and they don't make busses.

They expect our governments (everyone) to pay and implement the grid changes for their rich customers. They need enormous power transfers (charging extremely high electrical energy private luxury cars) for the convenience of their customers so that these rich people don't have to wait, whilst our grids first need a whole systematic rethink. The grids need to be refitted/rebuild to be able to process all the distributed extra electrical energy from renewables such as solar parks and windturbine parks.

Tesla inc. just wants you to buy their products and make loads of money, nothing else.
Mr. Musk is not much more than a marketing employee of Tesla.
Please don't align your personal views with those of the multinational billionaire corporation of Tesla.

There is no reason for optimism in our predicament. Optimism in an existential mess is a signature of deniers.

Please be kind to others, especially long term constructive fellow forum members.
Please refrain from nasty language. Don't copy our fake 'leaders' behaviour.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

KiwiGriff

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1273 on: March 05, 2020, 07:40:26 AM »
I gave links .

Tesla model 3 is the top selling electric car world wide by a huge margin .
It is acknowledge by the leading car company's COE's that they are struggling to catch Tesla's lead.
They know if they do not compete with Tesla their firms will be history. Before Tesla manufactures  made odd looking electric cars that did not appeal to the mainstream. Legacy auto  now have to make better electric cars than their gas models or die. 
Tesla is leading the charge to electric transport and pulling all others up  behind them. 
Wait a few months and the Y will eclipse the 3's impact.
Tesla has signaled the death knell of oil based personal land transport.

Hornsdale Power Reserve
For showing how one big battery could revolutionize renewable energy
The Hornsdale power reserve has basically made all fossil fuel peaker plants obsolete.
When it was first proposed many said it was impossible . It paid for itself in first year and a half of operation. Proof of concept you can use battery backup to solar and wind on a commercial scale. It also works better than fossil fuel generation at grid modulation and is cheaper to run.

I don't think you understand the significance of Tesla and  Elon Musk.   Musk will be remembered as one of the greatest minds  of human history long after we are all long forgotten dust.

As for Terry
He adds little to the forum of value .
If we went though he comments on the Telsa thread you would find he has been consistently wrong repeating what is nothing but FUD produced by those who would benefit by delaying or destroying Tesla..  I view him with the same contempt I hold for the useful idiots who repeat Climate Denial FUD. His form of human stupidity  is holding us back from resolving one of the biggest threats humanity has faced since we first fell out of trees in Africa.

As for you.
What you suggest on here  has been tried before  it was called Year Zero.
It might seem OK to you on an intellectual level .
To bring it about will result in the same as happened  last time.
Untold unmitigated  Horror.
Sex should be friendly. Otherwise stick to mechanical toys;
it's more sanitary.
― Robert A. Heinlein, Time Enough for Love

nanning

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1274 on: March 05, 2020, 10:10:58 AM »
KiwiGriff, I don't understand "Year Zero". wikipedia gives no clue (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_zero).

Untold unmitigated error will happen when (not if) civilisation collapses and the AGW accelarates even more, ecosystem collapses and insectageddon and the sea level starts rising faster.
You bet all on civilisation not collapsing with your view of the future with all its splendid electrical technology and disregard for the rest of all that has to happen. For starters, a new economic paradigm is needed fast. One not centered on growth.

Most people don't know who Elon Musk is. In my view he is a puppet, a big talker, a marketing man, an actor.

I'm sorry to say, but I find it arrogant and self important to write this on the forum:
"As for Terry
He adds little to the forum of value"
To the defense of Terry (I very much dislike kind and social people being attacked and called names!) He has made many more posts than just those in the Tesla thread. He is certainly no denier and I think many of his posts are interesting and bring something new. I think the Tesla thread should be deleted. It is about one specific U.S.A. corporation. A fanboyz and Musk/Tesla marketing thread about very expensive luxury cars, something that doesn't belong in this forum in my opinion.

Don't make Tesla or Musk your 'group' and don't exercise 'us vs them' behaviour please. Think big, think world wide, think all people on the planet.
I find it a bit disgusting that all those photo shoots of nice shiny expensive cars are posted. I think the "economic inequality" thread is far more important and far wider in its context. Why don't you post there KiwiGriff?
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

NeilT

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1275 on: March 05, 2020, 10:48:37 AM »
Nanning, you are able to live and eat due to the technology you say we should take out of our lives.  Your solution to the problem is to move backwards to a time when we could feed half the people on the earth that we have today.

To be honest, if I were not interested in climate change, faced with the two choices of dying because we were unable to mitigate AGW with our technology, or dying because the world could no longer feed me because of attitudes like yours, I guess I would take the first.

That wouldn't make me a denier, it would make me a person who took a calculated risk based on a certainty of death in one case and a chance of life in the other.

These people have a vote and the vast majority of them are not stupid.

When you want to go somewhere, rowing against the tide is an extremely inefficient way of getting there.

If Tesla succeeds then your food is going to be delivered on Electric trucks in the next two decades.

Or we can just not do it and all that food you eat, not grown in your country, will come by diesel truck.
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Ken Feldman

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1276 on: March 05, 2020, 07:08:29 PM »
While investors are quickly abandoning fossil fuels, they still want to make money.  They're increasingly turning to renewables and battery storage to do so.

https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2020-03-04/solar-batteries-banks

Quote
Giant batteries, key to solar and wind power plans, start to get bank backing


By Natalia Kniazhevich and Brian EckhouseBloomberg
March 4, 2020
2:27 PM

Big batteries have long been touted as the future of the electrical grid and a key to unlocking solar and wind power. But when entrepreneur David Cieminis sought financing for a storage project in California, a state desperate to wean itself off of fossil fuels, he couldn’t reel in a bank.

Quote
Standalone storage deals also have been scarce because of the newness of the product — project contracts aren’t yet standardized, says Yayoi Sekine, an analyst at BloombergNEF. The size of a project can be a concern for banks, too. They prefer to avoid financings of $50 million or less, a threshold some early standalone systems didn’t cross.

Quote
In early February, on a whim, he approached a few lenders that had completed storage financings. He was pleasantly surprised to find interest in two other Able Grid projects — 100-megawatt facilities in Southern California and Texas.

Recognizing the sizable opportunity in batteries, some project finance banks have recently begun supporting battery developments, and others expect to follow soon. The U.S. Energy Storage Assn. trade group is aiming to have 35,000 megawatts online by 2025. There are also climate change implications.

Quote
Some early concerns among lenders have abated. Banks are now largely comfortable with lithium-ion batteries. “They’re the battery in your Tesla, in your iPhone,” says Mike Lorusso, a managing director at CIT.

CIT was a lead bank on a $140-million loan last month for a portfolio of projects developed by esVolta, a California-based developer. The deal came after about six months of talks between Chief Financial Officer Krish Koomar and banks. It’s esVolta’s first debt financing. Mitsubishi UFJ Financial Group Inc., one of the world’s leading project finance banks, expects at least three standalone battery deals in the U.S. this year, says Erik Codrington, a managing director.

NeilT

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1277 on: March 06, 2020, 12:57:56 PM »
Thinking forward, I'm wondering if old EV batteries will be more efficiently used as half life storage or whether the materials can provide more benefit by being recycled back into full capacity batteries?
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gerontocrat

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1278 on: March 06, 2020, 03:51:27 PM »
Thinking forward, I'm wondering if old EV batteries will be more efficiently used as half life storage or whether the materials can provide more benefit by being recycled back into full capacity batteries?
Why not both ?
Suck the last useful years of life out of these batteries in large static installations,
Then recycle the raw materials.
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TerryM

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1279 on: March 06, 2020, 06:31:19 PM »
As of today it's cheaper to mislead the public, then oust those leaders who insist that the countries providing raw lithium should profit from it's exploitation.
https://www.rt.com/news/481853-mit-study-bolivia-election-fraud/

It seems as though Evo's crime wasn't election fraud, but rather his insistence on producing batteries locally, rather than exporting lithium ore. An MIT study found that the OAS's case against Morales was "deeply flawed". This was dutifully published by the Washington Post well after the coup had taken place, Evo was safely exiled and residing in Argentina, and the right wing coup had signed over Bolivia's lithium to a German consortium.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-oas-lied-to-the-public-about-the-bolivian-election-and-coup-2019-11-19

The coming elections held by the military government should prove interesting. Is there any likelihood that fair and open elections will occur? Will treaties signed by the unelected and unpopular Jeanine Anez be seen as binding if Evo's party, MAS returns to power? How far will America and the OAS go to keep their puppet in power?

Terry

KiwiGriff

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1280 on: March 06, 2020, 08:37:08 PM »
I think used battery's will flood into the developing world and allow them to frog leap our electrical grids just as they have gone straight to cell phones not run out wire.
It cost me less to build a solar and battery system than run a wire 350m up my drive.
If you are in a remote location anywhere the costs of grid connect are prohibitive. 
Solar panels are  now cheap used car battery's will make off grid storage cheap as well
It costs far less to use ex Tesla car modules than lead acid in the USA.
$49 kWh 1000 cycles vrs $240 kWh 1000 cycles for Trojan 105's .


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NeilT

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1281 on: March 07, 2020, 10:43:38 AM »
Thinking forward, I'm wondering if old EV batteries will be more efficiently used as half life storage or whether the materials can provide more benefit by being recycled back into full capacity batteries?
Why not both ?
Suck the last useful years of life out of these batteries in large static installations,
Then recycle the raw materials.

Because if you can recycle around 97% of the material and get full power again, the balance tips to recycling, as you are just locking in resources that are giving minimum benefit.
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Tor Bejnar

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1282 on: March 07, 2020, 02:33:26 PM »
It's not a black and white consideration, whether to re-purpose or recycle old batteries.  An old battery has a certain $$ value to the recycler (Hmmm, raw materials or recycled batter, which is cheaper? which is better for our reputation? or long-term viability?) and a certain $$ value to the reuser (Hmmm, New battery? alas, not enough $$. No battery? But I really need the fridge for insulin!  used battery? All I can afford.)  When a used battery has more value to a reuser, it will be reused, and when it has more value to a manufacturer, it will be recycled. 

The danger for so many products is that the value for both recycling and reusing is so low that manufacturers choose to use 'only' raw materials and potential reusers buy new or do without. 
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NeilT

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1283 on: March 07, 2020, 04:07:48 PM »
I must admit I was thinking of the long term cycle of scarce resources and not of the cost at all.

When the brown sticky stuff really hits the whirly thing, cost is not going to be the first consideration.
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Iain

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1284 on: March 08, 2020, 10:11:27 AM »
A UK supplier I got my PV panels from is testing a new battery, my intended use is for domestic scale static storage of solar & wind generation. I've asked some follow up Qs:

Hi Iain

For the new Long Life Lithium we are testing units which are 24V 80Ah and 24V 120ah and can be run with upto 4 in parallel.  So that would give you 320Ah or 480Ah.

Pricing on these is looking like it will be around
24V 80Ah - approx £1450+vat each
24V 120Ah - approx £2150+vat each

Mega Long Life LTO Lithium Battery 25,000+ Cycles
Latest Battery Technology
Low Temperature Performance -50c to +60c
Super High rate discharge 10C Fast Charge 4-5C
Long Cycle life 25,000 100% DOD cycles (thats over 60 years of daily discharge!)
Still 80% of initial capacity after 25,000 cycles!
High round trip efficiency (RTE): >95%.
Extremely Safe - resistant to mechanical abuse without risk of fire or explosion, low-risk energy storage in any application.

Would these be of interest to you?
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1285 on: March 30, 2020, 04:40:37 PM »
The battery would be situated on the island of O'ahu at Kahe Power Plant. It will work with a 390-megawatt-hour project near Kalaeloa to help retire the coal-fired plant, set to close in 2022.  With a planned capacity of 810MWh, the project would become one of the biggest batteries in the world.

Tesla bids to deploy one of the biggest batteries in the world with 244 Megapacks in Hawaii
Quote
To put it into perspective, it would have more than six times the energy capacity of Tesla’s 100MW/129MWh Powerpack project in South Australia, which was the biggest battery in the world when it was completed a few years ago.
Tesla’s proposal consists of deploying 244 Tesla Megapacks....
https://electrek.co/2020/03/29/tesla-biggest-batteries-world-hawaii-megapacks/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1286 on: April 18, 2020, 07:54:39 PM »
Neoen Australia: Hornsdale Tesla 50 MW Battery Extension Completed
Quote
Neoen Australia recently completed the expansion of the battery energy storage system in Hornsdale, Australia (built by Tesla in 2017) - so far, the world's biggest battery energy storage.

The install of Tesla battery packs, power electronics and the network connection was completed by March/April and the site should be able to provide:

150 MW of power (+50 MW / 50%)
193.5 MWh of capacity (+64.5 MWh / 50%)

The main purpose of an energy storage system (ESS) of such size is to support of the grid and allow for better utilization of solar and wind generation (including the 315 MW Hornsdale Wind Farm).


Quote
"Hornsdale Battery Extension: network connection works completed! The world biggest battery to provide soon extra reliability to the grid in those extremely challenging times (very low demand, increased risks of outages, ...).
Congrats to the #CPP, #Tesla and #Neoen teams"
https://insideevs.com/news/410046/neoen-australia-hornsdale-battery-extension-completed/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1287 on: May 05, 2020, 09:33:24 PM »
An all-electric range extender concept

“Hybrid cells” that contain Lithium-Ion and Lithium-Metal. The cells also used an optimized electrolyte, and pressure enabled reversible plating on graphite.

Use lithium-ion mode for everyday needs, and lithium-metal mode when longer range is required.

“We also found that intermittent high energy (100% utilization) cycles utilizing lithium metal can be dispersed among hundreds of conventional lithium-ion cycles where only the graphite is utilized. Operating the cell with this intermittent protocol shows minimal impact to the underlying graphite capacity. Therefore, these hybrid cells can operate well in “lithium-ion mode” with periodic high energy full cycles accessing the lithium metal capacity.”

Tesla battery researchers open path to all-electric range extender concept
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-battery-researchers-all-electric-range-extender/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1288 on: May 08, 2020, 08:28:31 PM »
Elon Musk commented:
“Way more important than it sounds”
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1258510752396144640

Tesla Gained Another Battery Cell Patent: Cell With A Tabless Electrode
Quote
…Removing the tab connected to the negative electrode and reorienting the conductive connection to a conductive portion … allows the negative electrode to run along the length of the negative electrode. This reduces ohmic resistance through the negative electrode to the can, reduces current deviation across the length of the electrode, improves cell lifetime, reduces joule heating, and increases heat dissipation capability.

The electrical resistance of a given material is directly proportional to its length. In conventional electrochemical cell designs, the electrode tab contact is typically fixed at either the end or the middle of the wound electrode. In order to initiate an electrochemical reaction, current must thus travel length-wise down the electrode current collector to reach the active material where the charge-transfer reactions take place. The distance the current will travel will vary from one half the length of the wound electrode if the tab is affixed at the electrode's midpoint, to the entire length of the electrode if the tab is affixed at either end. Embodiments within the present disclosure may provide a more uniform electrical contact between the electrode current collector and the interior can surface. The maximum distance current will travel is therefore the height of the electrode as opposed to its length. Depending on the cell form factor, the height of an electrode is typically 5% to 20% of its length. Therefore, the ohmic resistance in the negative electrode during electrochemical cycling can be reduced by 5 to 20 times via embodiments of the present disclosure.
...
The presently disclosed embodiment also offers superior heat generation and transfer properties compared to conventional electrochemical cell designs. …
https://www.tesmanian.com/blogs/tesmanian-blog/patent-cell-with-a-tabless-electrode
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1289 on: May 09, 2020, 09:39:53 PM »
Quote
Tesla Gained Another Battery Cell Patent: Cell With A Tabless Electrode


Quote
Nafnlaus (@enn_nafnlaus) 5/8/20, 12:51 PM
Considering the impact of Tesla's new "tabless" cells.
Most of the discussion of the new "tabless" cells has focused on the cost benefits of eliminating the tabs themselves. However, there's much more at play.
Here is a typical mass-market 18650 cylindrical cell.
[image below.]
...
While on its own, a significant lowering of internal resistance would be good, one could instead use thinner foils (potentially significantly thinner, except you could run into the tensile limits of the foils during winding). This allows for a greater ratio of active materials.
...
Summary: I can see why @elonmusk is excited about this; it looks like it could potentially offer quite a significant improvement, to even cell heating and some combination between reduced internal resistance (heating, power) and energy density while reducing cost per kWh.
...
Both more range, more power, and cheaper cost per kWh, with the balance between factors being Tesla's choice.
https://twitter.com/enn_nafnlaus/status/1258818951678656513
< Also faster charge rates
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Tor Bejnar

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1290 on: May 09, 2020, 10:31:00 PM »
Quote
[Tabless electrodes allow for] more range, more power, and cheaper cost per kWh, with the balance between factors being Tesla's choice.
What is curious to me is that "lighter and less expensive car" were not explicitly perceived options for Tesla.
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NeilT

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1291 on: May 09, 2020, 11:37:44 PM »
Yes well when the fiat 500e has a WLTP range of 199 miles (177 EPA) and a price tag of $33,000, Tesla don't need to.  The competition are handing it to Tesla on a plate and Tesla continues to race ahead.

After all, would you rather pay around $30,000 for that, with a standard 50,000 mile, 4 year warranty, or a Tesla model. 3 with an EPA range of. 2r0 miles and a standard warranty of 100,000 miles and 8 years for around $40,000?

To get an 8 year warranty on the Fiat you have to pay an additional sum, reducing the difference in price even more.

Tesla will introduce a smaller, cheaper, vehicle, with a reasonable range, as soon as they have saturated the M3 and My markets.  When they will be leading all over again.

Never mind ota updates, collision avoidance features and a host of other things that are all $$$ options on the Fiat.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1292 on: May 21, 2020, 09:37:34 PM »
Northvolt unveils its own Tesla Powerpack/Megapack competitor: Voltpack
Quote
Swedish startup Northvolt, who secured massive backing from VW, has unveiled its own stationary energy storage solution to compete with Tesla Powerpack and Megapack.

Northvolt is a battery startup founded by two former Tesla executives who worked on Tesla’s Gigafactory 1 in Nevada with Panasonic. The Swedish startup received investments from several companies, including Volkswagen, to build a massive battery factory in Sweden.

Volkswagen’s investment also came with the option to create a 50/50 joint-venture with the startup to build another battery factory to supply the automaker. The deal was finalized last year. The company is poised to replicate the success of Tesla Gigafactory Nevada in Europe to supply batteries for Volkswagen’s electric vehicles. But now we’ve learned that like Tesla, they also want to produce their own stationary energy storage products.

Northvolt is launching the ‘Voltpack Mobile System’, a new modular energy storage system in partnership with Vattenfall:

“Northvolt and Vattenfall today announced the launch of a new battery energy storage solution, Voltpack Mobile System – a rugged, highly modular lithium-ion battery system envisioned as a zero-emission alternative to replace diesel generators.”

The company is emphasizing its modular capability enabling quick deployment and mobility, but they are aiming at applications similar to other products on the market like Tesla’s Powerpack and Megapack, including “powering remote electricity grids, reinforcing weak grids, supporting electric vehicle charging and delivering grid services such as balancing power, flexibility, or other ancillary services.”
https://electrek.co/2020/05/20/northvolt-voltpack-tesla-powerpack-megapack-competitor/
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Juan C. García

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1293 on: June 02, 2020, 03:34:19 AM »


https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsenergylett.0c00700

Quote
Researchers develop viable sodium battery
Date: June 1, 2020
Source: Washington State University

Summary: Researchers have created a sodium-ion battery that holds as much energy and works as well as some commercial lithium-ion battery chemistries, making for a potentially viable battery technology out of abundant and cheap materials. The team reports one of the best results to date for a sodium-ion battery.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/06/200601072951.htm
Which is the best answer to Sep-2012 ASI lost (compared to 1979-2000)?
50% [NSIDC Extent] or
73% [PIOMAS Volume]

Volume is harder to measure than extent, but 3-dimensional space is real, 2D's hide ~50% thickness gone.
-> IPCC/NSIDC trends [based on extent] underestimate the real speed of ASI lost.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1294 on: June 30, 2020, 05:47:51 PM »
CATL Announces New Battery R&D Laboratory
It will enter operation at the end of 2021
Quote
CATL, the Chinese largest lithium-ion battery manufacturer, breaks ground on a new lithium-ion battery laboratory - the 21C Lab, at its headquarters in Ningde, east China's Fujian Province.

The 3.3 billion RMB ($466 million) investment is scheduled to be put into operation at the end of 2021 and will be focused to leverage R&D capabilities and work on new technologies, including:

metal lithium batteries
all-solid-state batteries
sodium-ion batteries

Within five years, the 21C Lab is expected to employ "thousands of experts and talents". ...
https://insideevs.com/news/430777/catl-new-battery-rd-laboratory/amp/
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Alexander555

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1295 on: July 08, 2020, 08:57:44 PM »
My first chainsaw with a battery. I did some testing today, after 15 minutes the battery was still full. It still needs some oil for the chain. But no more gasoline.

Juan C. García

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1296 on: July 08, 2020, 09:07:40 PM »
Which is the best answer to Sep-2012 ASI lost (compared to 1979-2000)?
50% [NSIDC Extent] or
73% [PIOMAS Volume]

Volume is harder to measure than extent, but 3-dimensional space is real, 2D's hide ~50% thickness gone.
-> IPCC/NSIDC trends [based on extent] underestimate the real speed of ASI lost.

gerontocrat

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1297 on: July 10, 2020, 06:50:45 PM »
Just maybe a new kid on the block...

https://theprint.in/tech/power-pioneer-invents-new-battery-thats-90-cheaper-than-lithium-ion/457316/
Power pioneer invents new battery that’s 90% cheaper than lithium-ion

Japan's Hideaki Horie, who helped commercialize the batteries, has developed an approach he says can speed up manufacturing, making it as easy as 'buttering toast.'
Quote
“The problem with making lithium batteries now is that it’s device manufacturing like semiconductors,” Horie said in an interview. “Our goal is to make it more like steel production.”

The making of a cell, every battery’s basic unit, is a complicated process requiring cleanroom conditions — with airlocks to control moisture, constant air filtering and exacting precision to prevent contamination of highly reactive materials. The setup can be so expensive that a handful of top players like South Korea’s LG Chem Ltd., China’s CATL and Japan’s Panasonic Corp. spend billions of dollars to build a suitable factory.

Horie’s innovation is to replace the battery’s basic components — metal-lined electrodes and liquid electrolytes — with a resin construction. He says this approach dramatically simplifies and speeds up manufacturing, making it as easy as “buttering toast.” It allows for 10-meter-long battery sheets that can be stacked on top of each other “like seat cushions” to increase capacity, he said. Importantly, the resin-based batteries are also resistant to catching fire when punctured.

In March, APB raised 8 billion yen ($74 million), which is tiny by the wider industry’s standards but will be enough to fully equip one factory for mass production slated to start next year. Horie estimates the funds will get his plant in central Japan to 1 gigawatt-hour capacity by 2023.

Horie acknowledges that APB can’t compete with battery giants who are already benefiting from economies of scale after investing billions. Instead of targeting the “red ocean” of the automotive sector, APB will first focus on stationary batteries used in buildings, offices and power plants.

That market will be worth $100 billion by 2025 worldwide, more than five times its size last year, according to estimates by Wood Mackenzie. The U.S. alone — which together with China will be the main source of increased energy storage demand — is likely to see a 10-fold increase to $7 billion in the period.
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Ken Feldman

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1298 on: July 14, 2020, 07:12:48 PM »
Tesla, GM and CATL are ready to deploy a million-mile batteries that can be repurposed for grid storage after the car wears out.

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Teslas-Million-Mile-Battery-Will-Fuel-A-New-Green-Energy-Boom.html

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Tesla’s Million-Mile Battery Will Fuel A New Green Energy Boom
By Tsvetana Paraskova - Jul 13, 2020

The million-mile battery for electric vehicles (EVs) could hit the market very soon, giving a boost not only to zero-emission vehicle ownership but also to renewable energy generation.    While the million-mile battery will outlast whatever car it is placed in, it could still be put to good use after its initial purpose, providing a boon to the used EVs market or to energy storage, Maddie Stone writes in Grist.

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Tesla is reportedly set to launch a million-mile battery as soon as this year or early in 2021 for its Model 3 in China, as part of a wider plan to introduce longer-lasting, low-cost batteries that would bring EV prices to parity with conventional gas-powered cars.

Last year, a team from the Dalhousie University in Halifax, Canada, who does research for Tesla, said in a paper that they had tested lithium-ion battery cell chemistry expected to be able to power electric vehicles (EVs) for more than 1 million miles and last at least two decades in grid energy storage.

GM is "almost there" in its efforts to make a million-mile battery, GM's Executive Vice President Doug Parks said at an online conference in May.

China's battery manufacturer Contemporary Amperex Technology Co. Ltd (CATL) is ready to produce a battery that could last more than 1 million miles – 1.24 million miles, to be precise – and 16 years, the company's chairman Zeng Yuqun told Bloomberg in an interview last month.

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A million-mile battery could increase vehicle ownership and the resale value of EVs, giving impetus to the secondhand EV market and making EVs more popular.

Quote
Battery packs can also serve as energy storage for renewable energy generation once they have outlasted the original vehicle they were intended to serve.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1299 on: July 16, 2020, 01:35:06 AM »
In a measure of how far battery development has progressed: “million mile battery” doesn’t really say all that much, any more.

“The number of cycles a battery can maintain reasonable performance through is just one characteristic of a battery's design. Many factors determine how viable a battery is for use in an electric vehicle.”

Tesla Already Has a "Million-Mile" Battery
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So Reuters had reported in mid-May that the "new 'million mile' battery at the center of Tesla’s strategy was jointly developed with [CATL]," and now, just weeks later, CATL was announcing market availability of a million-mile battery? Had Tesla's postponement of their Battery Day caused them to be beaten to the punch? Not exactly.

It's All in the Details
The number of cycles a battery can maintain reasonable performance through is just one characteristic of a battery's design. Many factors determine how viable a battery is for use in an electric vehicle.
•   Cost per kWh
   ◦   Scale of production
   ◦   Production efficiency
•   Chemistry
   ◦   Material cost
   ◦   Material availability and sourcing
   ◦   Recyclability
•   Energy density
   ◦   Volumetric
   ◦   Gravimetric
•   Power
•   Charge rate
•   Stability / Safety
•   Lifecycle
   ◦   Number of cycles
   ◦   Degradation

CATL disclosed lifecycle and information on relative cost, but not much else. If lifecycle is the only consideration, Tesla already has batteries capable of powering a million-mile electric vehicle. This detail was disclosed in Tesla's 2019 Impact Report. ...
https://www.thestreet.com/tesla/articles/tesla-has-million-mile-batteries
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