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Author Topic: Importance of waves in the Arctic  (Read 80306 times)

Rich

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Re: Importance of waves in the Arctic
« Reply #150 on: July 01, 2019, 03:38:05 PM »
Hi Rich,

My train has been invaded by hordes of Glasto goers!

How about "waves in ice" and/or "Arctic storm surge"?

My question is very specific Jim.

If the fresh warm water sitting at the edge of the Chuchki ocean ice interface is pushed further east in any meaningful volume, will the incoming water be dense enough to force water underneath the ice that's currently floating in the ice pack??

There's no realistic expectations that I'm going to find the answer to that specific question via a Google search.

Sterks

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Re: Importance of waves in the Arctic
« Reply #151 on: July 01, 2019, 04:10:12 PM »
Hi Rich,

My train has been invaded by hordes of Glasto goers!

How about "waves in ice" and/or "Arctic storm surge"?

My question is very specific Jim.

If the fresh warm water sitting at the edge of the Chuchki ocean ice interface is pushed further east in any meaningful volume, will the incoming water be dense enough to force water underneath the ice that's currently floating in the ice pack??

There's no realistic expectations that I'm going to find the answer to that specific question via a Google search.
I think there is some mixing between the incoming Bering water and the ice edge water, and ice melt is accelerated around the pathways coming from Bering, you can see these fingers forming right now, and I have seen them every year. Ice stays for longer on top of the shoals (elevations of the shelf bathymetry) because currents are forced to surround these shoals by Coriolis.

So it is clear a pulse of Pacific water affects directly the water under the ice edge as long as the ice edge lies over the shelf (low depth)
Once we reach the shelf break and depths go from 50 m to ~ thousands of meters, the Chukchi currents are free to sink and there is less interaction with the ice edge.
That’s how I see it.
But this has nothing with waves, by the way, it is Bering inflow-ice edge interaction.

Neven

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Re: Importance of waves in the Arctic
« Reply #152 on: July 01, 2019, 04:28:54 PM »
My question is very specific Jim.

If the fresh warm water sitting at the edge of the Chuchki ocean ice interface is pushed further east in any meaningful volume, will the incoming water be dense enough to force water underneath the ice that's currently floating in the ice pack??

There's no realistic expectations that I'm going to find the answer to that specific question via a Google search.

How about you wait and see what happens, and if you see evidence for whatever it is you think will happen, you post it here? That is what Jim and I are alluding to. It would make this exercise a whole lot less useless for everyone involved.
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FishOutofWater

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Re: Importance of waves in the Arctic
« Reply #153 on: July 03, 2019, 03:43:08 PM »
Rich, you can see Mercator's animations of the warming waters on the Alaskan side of the Arctic. There is nothing to see this time of year below 30m on these animations relevant to Bering Pacific water inflow.

The Coriolis effect directs Pacific water into the Alaska coastal current which wraps around point Barrow. Eddies, subsea topography and islands cause some mixing of waters.

http://bulletin.mercator-ocean.fr/en/permalink/PSY4/animation/3/20190501/20190702/1/1

http://bulletin.mercator-ocean.fr/en/permalink/PSY4/animation/3/20190501/20190702/1/2

http://bulletin.mercator-ocean.fr/en/permalink/PSY4/animation/3/20190501/20190702/2/1

http://bulletin.mercator-ocean.fr/en/permalink/PSY4/animation/3/20190501/20190702/2/2

Bruce Steele

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Re: Importance of waves in the Arctic
« Reply #154 on: July 03, 2019, 08:14:31 PM »
Fish, I don't understand what you mean" nothing to see below 30 meters."  Mercator does show warm water with increased salinity moving north through the Berring Strait around either side of the Hanna Shoals and up to the edge of the basin where it sinks and disappears from the 30 meter contour.  The Mercator model isn't showing the same temperature increase that the ITP 110 buoy is showing with surface temps at 6 meters between -.6 and -.8 .  The ITP 110 also showed some heat increases in the Pacific warm water layer. 
 I have to believe the bouy data over the model runs but maybe I am missing something ?