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Archimid

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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #550 on: May 28, 2019, 02:38:29 PM »
If you don't see what is wrong with Breitbart I question your objectivity and intentions. The accusations that were levied against you (a troll from reddit) gain support.

Quote
OK, could you please give me a list of all the news sources you do not want me to use? And will you include Liberal as well as Conservative sources in the list?

In the climate change universe there are sites whose whole purpose is spread any news that can possibly be used to deny climate change. It does not matter if they are true or not. These sites have an agenda to deceive, sites like WUWT.  Beirtbart is to politics what WUWT is to climate science.

Sites like that from sources like that will get called out instantly, even if you are a long term and revered member of the community.
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b_lumenkraft

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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #551 on: May 28, 2019, 02:40:47 PM »
Archimid, i think you should also consider, that Tom is willing to agree to not share it here anymore. This is why he asked. Would a troll do that?

Sigmetnow

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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #552 on: May 28, 2019, 02:50:43 PM »
Teen activist Thunberg urges leaders to admit climate crisis
https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/teen-activist-thunberg-urges-leaders-admit-climate-crisis-63316667

The photo says it all.
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Archimid

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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #553 on: May 28, 2019, 02:52:57 PM »
I 'm not ready to put him on a troll category yet, in fact  I like most of his posts. However, not being aware of Breitbart's role makes me wary of his true intentions.  I have used Breitbart as a source before but I have always been aware of their role. I won't use it as a source unless I use very heavy warning.
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vox_mundi

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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #554 on: May 28, 2019, 03:18:03 PM »
Tom

If you want to gauge the bias of your news sources I would recommend

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/
Search function: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/search/#gsc.tab=0
Credible Pro-Science sources: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/pro-science/

Example:

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/breitbart/

Breitbart News

QUESTIONABLE SOURCE

A questionable source exhibits one or more of the following: extreme bias, consistent promotion of propaganda/conspiracies, poor or no sourcing to credible information, a complete lack of transparency and/or is fake news. Fake News is the deliberate attempt to publish hoaxes and/or disinformation for the purpose of profit or influence (Learn More). Sources listed in the Questionable Category may be very untrustworthy and should be fact checked on a per article basis. Please note sources on this list are not considered fake news unless specifically written in the reasoning section for that source.

Listing of all questionable sources
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/fake-news/
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #555 on: May 28, 2019, 03:25:24 PM »
Placed in Favorites folder.
EDIT: I mean the Bookmarks folder!
Why can't Windows and MacOS use the same terminology!?
« Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 04:46:31 PM by Tom_Mazanec »
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b_lumenkraft

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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #556 on: May 28, 2019, 03:39:20 PM »
Thanks a lot Tom! :)

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #557 on: May 28, 2019, 11:46:04 PM »
Maybe it is just my age (61). When I was growing up, you could pretty much cite any journal, magazine or newspaper in a term paper and that was usually OK. Not this "is this news source Fake News or not?" BS we have to go through now.
Or am I just remembering through tinted glasses?
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b_lumenkraft

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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #558 on: May 29, 2019, 08:35:26 AM »
No, the world has changed with the internet. Everyone can be a publisher now.

Back then there was a publisher class no one disputed.

What's better? I don't know.

For me personally, the new world is better.

But in a social scale, the intelligent people are too silent, and the dumbasses screaming all day long. This can't be good...

Humanity has to adapt to this new cultural technology. Seems to be a longer way than i anticipated back in 2000.

sidd

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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #559 on: May 29, 2019, 10:00:32 AM »
Rather than discussing the provenance of breitbart link, shall we talk about the pope's actual statement which I referenced from the vatican ?

I have myself posted links from breitbart before.  If you see a link that is "incorrect" in your worldview,you are welcome not to follow it. Censoring links is Neven's privilege on this forum, isn't it ?

sidd


b_lumenkraft

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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #560 on: May 29, 2019, 10:13:02 AM »
Censoring links is Neven's privilege on this forum, isn't it ?

Censoring Deleting bogus links is Neven's privilege on this forum, isn't it ?

FIFY ;)

Sidd, it strikes me you are a person with a solid media competence. You should understand the concept of media hygiene, shouldn't you? This is not a question of correctness. This is about giving propaganda a platform. Unless you are a neo-nazi yourself, what's your interest in legitimizing those fucks?


sidd

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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #561 on: May 29, 2019, 10:36:15 AM »
Re: solid media competence

I do not claim that i have competence in judging media.

Given that disclaimer, as a personal view  i see every news source as propaganda. I have posted Ellul's critiques from the 1960's before, I shall not repeat.

I don't like censorship. Post any links you like as citations. Others can debunk with other citations and argument. The best antidote for fake news is illumination, not censorship. Didn't Locke or Mill or somebody point that out a couple centuries ago ?

sidd

b_lumenkraft

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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #562 on: May 29, 2019, 10:50:16 AM »
Others can debunk with other citations and argument.

Right, i'm with you here.

It's not a binary though. Viewing any media source as propaganda or biased is healthy. But you also have to acknowledge the grade of bias.

In general, if you want honest and constructive discussions, you need a mechanism to filter out the stuff that's destructive to the discussion. It takes way more effort to debunk a bogus claim than it takes to make a valid argument. This is why trolling works.

Breitbart has one purpose: Clutter honest debates. Make it hard for people to find the truth.

And when we as a group decide to delegitimize them, we have this filter that has nothing to do with censorship. It's a social contract that helps us to stay sane.

Sleepy

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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #563 on: May 29, 2019, 10:58:15 AM »
<snip>shall we talk about the pope's actual statement which I referenced from the vatican ?<snip>
This is ok, all in all, even for an agnostic (like myself):

The signs today are not good. Investments in fossil fuels continue to rise, even though scientists tell us that fossil fuels should remain underground. The International Energy Agency recently reported that investments in clean energy fell again for the second consecutive year, even though experts have consistently demonstrated the benefits to the human environment provided by clean energy from wind, sun, and water. We continue along old paths because we are trapped by our faulty accounting and by the corruption of vested interests. We still reckon as profit what threatens our very survival.

The effects of global inaction are startling. About two weeks ago, several scientific research centres recorded the concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere – one of the key global causes of global warming linked to human activity – as having reached 415 parts per million, the highest level ever recorded. Around the world, we are seeing heat waves, droughts, forest fires, floods and other extreme meteorological events, rising sea levels, the emergence of diseases and further problems that are only a dire premonition of things much worse to come, unless we act and act urgently.

During your meeting today, you heard from leading climatologists and experts. Their message was clear and insistent. We need to act decisively to put an end to all emissions of greenhouse gases by mid-century at the very latest, and to do even more than that. Carbon dioxide concentrations have to decline significantly to ensure the safety of our common home. You also heard that this can be accomplished at low cost by employing clean energy and improving energy efficiency.

Reason itself makes this clear and should serve as the basis for our common action. Let us
therefore resolve to work together for these ends:
- to value what is important, not what is superfluous;
- to correct our national accounts and our business accounts, so as to stop engaging in activities
that are destroying our planet;
- to put an end to global dependency on fossil fuels;
- to open a new chapter of clean and safe energy, that utilizes, for example, renewable resources
such as wind, sun and water;
- above all, to act prudently and responsibly in our economies to actually meet human needs,
promote human dignity, help the poor and be set free of the idolatry of money that creates so
much suffering.


He's not mentioning NET's so the time frames might be a bit off (unless we actually start using NET's in the scale needed), but he's the pope and not Glen Peters.

Edit; and if he was, he might have added this:

« Last Edit: May 29, 2019, 11:09:29 AM by Sleepy »
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Tom_Mazanec

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Shared Humanity

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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #565 on: May 29, 2019, 07:55:35 PM »
UPS makes big renewable natural gas commitment:
http://www.primemovermag.com.au/news/article/ups-makes-biggest-commitment-to-renewable-natural-gas-in-us-history

And how exactly does making a commitment to renewable natural gas reduce greenhouse emissions?

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #566 on: May 29, 2019, 08:02:08 PM »
UPS makes big renewable natural gas commitment:
http://www.primemovermag.com.au/news/article/ups-makes-biggest-commitment-to-renewable-natural-gas-in-us-history

And how exactly does making a commitment to renewable natural gas reduce greenhouse emissions?

From the article:
The deal, as reported, will extend through 2026 with UPS announcing that it expects to reduce its greenhouse gas emissions by more than a million tonnes.

and

California Air Resources Board Low Carbon Fuel Standard program has shown in recent data that biodiesel and renewable diesel fuel use reduced 4.3 million tonnes of carbon dioxide in California last year, more than any other fuel type of fuel, including ethanol and battery electric power.
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Shared Humanity

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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #567 on: May 29, 2019, 08:40:54 PM »
I understand that burning natural gas results in less greenhouse gas emissions but burning renewable natural gas has the same emissions as burning fossil sources of natural gas, doesn't it? We need to be carbon neutral by 2050, need to reduce our emissions by almost half by 2030. Renewable natural gas is not going to get us there.

Tor Bejnar

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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #568 on: May 29, 2019, 09:45:19 PM »
I presume "renewable natural gas" is similar to "bio-diesel" or "renewable wood".  For example:  the wood-powered electric generator.
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b_lumenkraft

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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #569 on: May 29, 2019, 09:56:01 PM »
Could be power to gas perhaps? >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power-to-gas

be cause

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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #570 on: May 29, 2019, 10:32:35 PM »
Europe's bio-diesel has successfully reduced .. the population of orangutan's .. b.c.
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 ...

Tom_Mazanec

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« Last Edit: May 30, 2019, 01:50:31 PM by Tom_Mazanec »
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Sigmetnow

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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #572 on: May 31, 2019, 12:59:16 AM »
Not “acceptance,” but less anti-AGW action?

The Cato Institute quietly shut down a program that for years sought to raise uncertainty about climate science, leaving the libertarian think tank co-founded by Charles Koch without an office dedicated to global warming.
https://www.eenews.net/stories/1060419123
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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #573 on: May 31, 2019, 02:07:56 AM »
Not “acceptance,” but less anti-AGW action?

The Cato Institute quietly shut down a program that for years sought to raise uncertainty about climate science, leaving the libertarian think tank co-founded by Charles Koch without an office dedicated to global warming.
https://www.eenews.net/stories/1060419123

These are smart people. They all understand and believe the science. Maybe they are getting nervous.

b_lumenkraft

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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #574 on: May 31, 2019, 08:22:24 AM »
The Cato Institute quietly shut down a program that for years sought to raise uncertainty about climate science,

This might be the best development for climate change action we've seen so far.

I will not downplay the important actions by single people like Greta, but the Kochs are a media-kraken. Their influence on the American 'common sense' is underestimated greatly.

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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #575 on: May 31, 2019, 09:17:00 PM »
I read today an interesting article in lemonde about the problem of our modern world that would be disconnected of the real one. It is in french.
https://www.lemonde.fr/idees/article/2019/05/31/bruno-latour-l-apocalypse-c-est-enthousiasmant_5469678_3232.html
Bruno Latour says that our civilisation is living in a "virtual" world that requires 5 planets to work, and that we have to land back in reality. That the climate deniers will not believe science because they live in that world and don't want to land.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 09:36:03 PM by etienne »

b_lumenkraft

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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #576 on: June 01, 2019, 08:58:46 AM »
Climate Denial: A Measured Response


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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #577 on: June 01, 2019, 12:34:25 PM »
Climate Denial: A Measured Response

Bugger measured response.

Tell deniers they are lying through their teeth.

Tell 'em they are stupid scumbags.
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b_lumenkraft

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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #578 on: June 01, 2019, 12:57:00 PM »
... and laugh at them!

Tom_Mazanec

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« Last Edit: June 01, 2019, 05:33:32 PM by Tom_Mazanec »
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Tor Bejnar

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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #580 on: June 01, 2019, 05:15:22 PM »
What I learned from the entertaining video "A Measured Response"
  • Ice sheet melting releases CO2 into the atmosphere
  • Horses don't exist (in some places, like Mars, I presume)
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b_lumenkraft

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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #581 on: June 01, 2019, 05:49:36 PM »
Ice sheet melting releases CO2 into the atmosphere

Is this correct? And if so, is it relevant?

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #582 on: June 01, 2019, 06:45:35 PM »
I don't know if it is correct, but I assume releasing CO2 would be relevant.
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ivica

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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #583 on: June 02, 2019, 01:25:33 AM »
An effort to raise public awareness about sea level rise, The Royal Institution, published on 2019-05-29, filmed at the Ri on 2019-02-11:

   Sea Level Rise Can No Longer Be Stopped, What Next? - with John Englander

   Q&A part


vox_mundi

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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #584 on: June 02, 2019, 02:14:41 AM »
Germany: Hamburg Aims to Legalize Dumpster Diving
https://dw.com/en/germany-hamburg-aims-to-legalize-dumpster-diving/a-48993508

Dumpster diving for food is considered theft in Germany, even if others have thrown the food away. The city of Hamburg wants Germany to decriminalize the act and prohibit supermarkets from throwing out food.

Till Steffen, Hamburg's senator for justice, believes people who take discarded food from garbage bins should no longer be punished, according to reports from German newspapers Neue Osnabrücker Zeitung and Pinneberger Tageblatt.

... In addition to changing the law, Steffen said he wants to either clarify the civil code in which tossed food no longer becomes the property of grocery stores or prohibit merchants from throwing food away in the first place. Similar food waste legislation passed in France in 2016. French food markets with more than 400 square meters of retail space are legally obligated to give unsold food to non-profit organizations.

-------------------------------

FAO: Roughly one third of the food produced in the world for human consumption every year — approximately 1.3 billion tonnes — gets lost or wasted. Food losses and waste amounts to roughly US$ 680 billion in industrialized countries and US$ 310 billion in developing countries.
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Tor Bejnar

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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #585 on: June 02, 2019, 02:24:58 AM »
Ice sheet melting releases CO2 into the atmosphere

Is this correct? And if so, is it relevant?
A Google search of what i bulleted yielded:
Quote
Melting ice sheets release tons of methane into the atmosphere. ... Methane gas (CH4) is the third most important greenhouse gas in the atmosphere after water vapour and carbon dioxide (CO2). Although, present in lower concentrations that CO2, methane is approximately 20-28 times more potent.Jan 3, 2019
Melting ice sheets release tons of methane into the atmosphere ...
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/01/190103110300.htm
I'm going to 'guess' Science Daily is an adequate source.  I would think any source of atmospheric methane would be relevant to issues of climate change.

The actual article starts:
Quote
The Greenland Ice Sheet emits tons of methane according to a new study, showing that subglacial biological activity impacts the atmosphere far more than previously thought.

An international team of researchers led by the University of Bristol camped for three months next to the Greenland Ice Sheet, sampling the meltwater that runs off a large catchment (> 600 km2) of the Ice Sheet during the summer months.

As reported in Nature, using novel sensors to measure methane in meltwater runoff in real time, they observed that methane was continuously exported from beneath the ice.
...
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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #586 on: June 02, 2019, 05:38:04 AM »
Re: dumpster diving for food

I know some street people living under overpasses whose main food source is from dumpsters.

Some groceries security types ignore or actually help them. They let them know when they do the dumps of expired food. But since a case where a doughnut store was sued for leaving doughnuts outside the dumpster (expired food cannot be distributed in most jurisdictions in the USA) all "waste" food has to go in the dumpster.

But some groceries try to be nice about it, schedule trash pickups right before they put the expired food in the empty dumpsters, so the scavengers dont have do go thru rotten waste too much.

And some groceries security and rentacops and regular cops are total assholes, club 'em like baby seals. Sometimes tasers. Couple cases i know, firearms, claiming threat of imminent bodily harm. Doesn't help that a substantial fraction of homeless have mental problems and react poorly to law enforcement.

Scavenging is not confined to dumpsters. I have seen families go thru vegetable fields after the harvester goes thru picking up cabbage parts and beet parts and such. The farmers are usually cool with that, but as usual there are some dickheads who set their dogs on them.

Shouldnt this be in the "food" threads ?

sidd
« Last Edit: June 02, 2019, 05:46:42 AM by sidd »

b_lumenkraft

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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #587 on: June 02, 2019, 07:12:01 AM »
Melting ice sheets release tons of methane into the atmosphere. ...

Thanks, Tor and Tom for your answers. I knew about the methane. Hbomberguy should have said greenhouse gases, not CO2 there.

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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #588 on: June 02, 2019, 08:27:43 AM »
An effort to raise public awareness about sea level rise, The Royal Institution, published on 2019-05-29, filmed at the Ri on 2019-02-11:

   Sea Level Rise Can No Longer Be Stopped, What Next? - with John Englander

   Q&A part
Thanks ivica.

Edit; What's not discussed in the future part at the end is sustainability and resource use. Nothing really new around SLR and glaciers (for those who follow this) but other than that, it's all sound and a worthwhile watch. Adding the key messages below.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2019, 09:57:00 AM by Sleepy »
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #589 on: June 02, 2019, 04:02:33 PM »
Quote
Rising Sea Level - Key Points
Unprecedented. No human experience.
Probably pedantic, but when the Black Sea flooded about 7,200 years ago (so the theory I believe goes), the people along its shore had to skedaddle, with sea level rising noticeably, but slow enough to take portable belongings.
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things.

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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #590 on: June 02, 2019, 04:43:26 PM »
Quote
Rising Sea Level - Key Points
Unprecedented. No human experience.
Probably pedantic, but when the Black Sea flooded about 7,200 years ago (so the theory I believe goes), the people along its shore had to skedaddle, with sea level rising noticeably, but slow enough to take portable belongings.

Due to the anoxic nature of the Black Sea at depth, entire settlements can be found preserved beneath the sea.

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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #591 on: June 03, 2019, 06:47:19 AM »
The Black Sea is ~436 km² and the global ocean area is ~361 million km². Trying to find evidence for the Genesis flood narrative is the wrong way to do it, Indonesia is currently the only country doing it right with their capital, trying to adapt to the risks presented by science.
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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #592 on: June 04, 2019, 10:12:29 PM »
America's Finest News Source: Latest "Last Ditch" climate change report

"a last-ditch climate change report issued Tuesday by the U.N."

"a 500-page directory that simply lists the names and addresses of key players in the fossil fuel industry, along with the precise coordinates of several bunkers containing extensive stockpiles of firearms"

"if everyone comes together and does their part, we can make a tremendous difference"

https://www.theonion.com/last-ditch-climate-change-report-provides-locations-of-1835244382

sidd

Tom_Mazanec

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SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

etienne

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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #594 on: June 06, 2019, 06:55:15 AM »
For German speaking people, i received an interesting link:
http://www.klimabuendnis.at/klimartikulieren-booklet

Sleepy

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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #595 on: June 06, 2019, 07:12:14 AM »
Knowing how and knowing when: unpacking public understanding of atmospheric CO2 accumulation
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10584-019-02423-8

One image split in two (snipped out the top and bottom parts) says it all (although current numbers are higher).


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Science is a jealous mistress and takes little account of a man's feelings.

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #596 on: June 06, 2019, 01:27:35 PM »
Well, companies are starting to gauge climate risk. Still a ways to go, though:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-05/companies-make-progress-but-not-enough-gauging-climate-risk
And students in Canada are walking out too:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/iqaluit-students-climate-change-1.5163398

EDIT: Expect more climate vigilantism:
https://www.gq.com/story/climate-vigilantes
« Last Edit: June 06, 2019, 08:11:13 PM by Tom_Mazanec »
SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

Sleepy

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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #597 on: June 07, 2019, 07:22:05 AM »
The Finnish government takes a tram to the press conference.
https://www.hs.fi/politiikka/art-2000006129100.html
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bluice

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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #598 on: June 07, 2019, 07:26:22 AM »
The same new Finnish government is aiming for Finland to become carbon neutral by 2035.

Talk is cheap, of course. Actions are lot harder but I do feel there is a change in public opinion about climate change.
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Re: What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
« Reply #599 on: June 07, 2019, 07:40:04 AM »
We're all equal in the United States of Scandinavia. But there are signs of people using more public transports, it's at least something.

Edit; also adding a quote from here:
https://medium.com/swlh/fake-leadership-is-dangerous-when-it-comes-to-corporate-sustainability-plastic-pollution-and-b9b3b2716cd5#---383-709
Quote
Unfortunately most people are overextended and only glance quickly at the corporate friendly headlines — and that’s exactly what politicians and corporations count on. Show “fake leadership” with a few symbolic gestures and the public will feel good knowing that someone is on the job addressing their concerns. But in many ways these promises are more insidious than doing nothing. When big corporations and governments say that they are going to respond to a crisis, it lulls us into a state of complacency. It’s dangerous, because rather than standing up and voicing our concerns with what appears to be a serious lack of engagement, we are quiet, believing that someone else is taking care of the problem.

For the better part of the last 15 years, a hopeful public has been pacified with promises, while the corporate sustainability movement continues to track in a direction that suppresses meaningful regulations, in favour of hope that somehow a market based solution will emerge. For those who see the world through a more cynical lens, it almost seems as if those in control of the narrative, the super elites, are not just steering change in a particular direction but rather, they are disrupting change in a way that can best be described as stonewalling to maintain the status quo.
My bold...

Also adding an image from CCC, I think this is a common distribution among western countries, where mainly behavioural changes are needed.
https://www.theccc.org.uk/publication/net-zero-the-uks-contribution-to-stopping-global-warming/
« Last Edit: June 07, 2019, 09:22:33 AM by Sleepy »
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
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Science is a jealous mistress and takes little account of a man's feelings.