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SteveMDFP

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #650 on: December 18, 2016, 05:35:02 PM »
Does anyone know of a paper or discussion on the heat energy of falling water in the cryosphere?

The power of falling water is given as P = ηpQgh where

η = efficiency factor, percentage efficiency expressed as a decimal
P = power in Watts
p = density of the water
Q = flow rate in cubic meters/second
g = gravitational acceleration
h = head in meters (difference between inlet and outlet levels)

For ice, as for turbines, an efficiency factor is needed. When water flows over ice or falls through it, heat is generated at each disturbance in the flow.  This heat is less than would be generated by water falling unimpeded.

My point is that water flowing over ice or through it into the sea must be heated to at least some degree on its downward journey.  This will likely promote melting of glacier ice and / or promote local sea temperature rise.

So, has this been discussed anywhere?

Of course, that efficiency factor is only relevant if you're talking about power output of a hydroelectric dam.  When water in nature falls, all the energy ends up as heat, whether it falls straight down, on a slope, in steps, whatever.  Though it seems like there should be a lot of warming of water as it drops, the actual warming from falling from rather great heights is fairly miniscule for the tens to a couple of hundred meters we're dealing with.  It's been a long time since I studied physics to run the calculation, but I think even if you took ice at -20C from the top of Greenland, kept all the potential energy in it as heat as it dropped to sea level, you'd maybe get enough warmth to bring it maybe to the melting point after 3km, but not actually melt it.

Peter Ellis

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #651 on: December 18, 2016, 05:47:10 PM »
Gravitational potential energy = mgh ~= 10  kilojoules per kilogram per kilometer of height.
Specific heat capacity of ice = 2.1 kilojoules per kilogram per degree Kelvin.

Ergo dropping a chunk of ice one km and converting all that energy to heating the ice would raise its temperature by ~5 degrees.

Similarly, water falling downwards by one km and converting all that energy to heating the water would raise its temperature by about 2.5 degrees.  James Joule himself actually considered trying this, but found it impractical due to the amount of spray at the bottom of the waterfall - i.e. not all the energy actually goes into heating the water!

Specific heat of fusion for water is 333 kilojoules per kilogram.  So if you took ice at exactly freezing point and dropped it 1km, converting all that energy into melting the ice, about 3% of it would melt.

Shared Humanity

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #652 on: December 18, 2016, 06:34:44 PM »
Does anyone know of a paper or discussion on the heat energy of falling water in the cryosphere?

The power of falling water is given as P = ηpQgh where

η = efficiency factor, percentage efficiency expressed as a decimal
P = power in Watts
p = density of the water
Q = flow rate in cubic meters/second
g = gravitational acceleration
h = head in meters (difference between inlet and outlet levels)

For ice, as for turbines, an efficiency factor is needed. When water flows over ice or falls through it, heat is generated at each disturbance in the flow.  This heat is less than would be generated by water falling unimpeded.

My point is that water flowing over ice or through it into the sea must be heated to at least some degree on its downward journey.  This will likely promote melting of glacier ice and / or promote local sea temperature rise.

So, has this been discussed anywhere?

If it isn't, I'd sure visit the thread if it was. Could you start the conversation in the Science section?

Shared Humanity

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #653 on: December 18, 2016, 06:37:57 PM »
I can't lay my hands or eyes on the sources, but I am pretty sure that the splitting of methane in the atmosphere is rate limited by the hydroxyl radical. 

Found some    http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev.pc.39.100188.002055?journalCode=physchem
Quote
Ann. Rev. Phys. Chern. 1988. 39: 367-94
KINETICS OF RADICAL REACTIONS IN THE ATMOSPHERIC OXIDATION OF CH4   1

Quote
A R. Ravishankara Aeronomy Laboratory, National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration,Boulder,Colorado 80303

Shame it is not opensource   DOI: 10.1146/annurev.pc.39.100188.002055  Especially shameful as footnote one states
1 The US Government has the right to retain a nonexclusive, royalty-free license ...

Copy and paste not working on the pdf  Highlights  - 30% of the carbon monoxide is from CH4 oxidation.    The photolysis of methane is unimportant below the mesoshpere. 

Anyone finding a newer and or better distillation of methane atmospheric oxidation and posting it would be a stellar individual..  Possibly post into the Methane thread with the excitable name.  peace out

Could this be a safe way of geoengineering elevated levels of CH4 in the atmosphere? I'm fairly certain we have unzipped a lot of sources for methane that will be difficult to shut down.

Shared Humanity

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #654 on: December 18, 2016, 06:41:02 PM »
Oh, and thanks to everyone who responded to my stupid question. I understand a little more.

logicmanPatrick

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #655 on: December 18, 2016, 07:35:38 PM »
Shared Humanity: re falling water - I wonder if Neven could move my question and responses to a new thread?

Re: CH4 - I wonder if this helps - Global Methane Biogeochemistry, W S Reeburgh 2003

www.ess.uci.edu/~reeburgh/WSR%20TOG%202006.pdf
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Jim Williams

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #656 on: December 20, 2016, 02:30:57 PM »
...
Fortunately we are much further from the sun than Venus... In other words, what happens on Venus is likely to stay on Venus. :)

Thanks FTB et al.  Its reassuring to know that we are not going there, yet. 

But I am reminded, as I see my aircraft's wings flexing up and taking the load on takeoff, the 'laws of nature' do not need a peer reviewed paper to allow then to kick into action do they.

So in this prevailing situation where things are clearly out of balance, with unusual atmospheric heat entering the Arctic close to the surface combined with a drastically high water content in the air column which is doing its absorption thing (including about half of the radiation from the air column being scattered back downwards), then the positive reinforcement processes of more heat in wet air enables higher-still water content in the air which leads back to more more heat close to the surface and around we go - is in play as we speak isn't it.   There is no threshold above//below which these processes kick in - they are working now.

Ditto of course regarding kilometre scale methane plume eruptions due to warming oceans and the high short term GHG impact of methane, and no doubt there are several other similar feedback loops.

So in individual cells at micro and macro scale the Arctic climate is being driven by a number of forcings and as a consequence the climate is - within some pretty distant bounds - potentially in a run-away mode until it hits some limit.  Not a comfortable situation.

I thought I'd bring this up as a stupid question, since it isn't about the freezing season...

Regarding "potentially in a run-away mode until it hits some limit":  Just would would form that limit?  A cloudy Earth?

logicmanPatrick

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #657 on: December 20, 2016, 03:19:48 PM »
Quote
Regarding "potentially in a run-away mode until it hits some limit":  Just would would form that limit?  A cloudy Earth?
I am currently reading up on increased precipitation and carbon cycles.  I have found info on the way that increased CO2 produces increased water uptake, hence increased precipitation.  Increased precipitation as rain appears to be good for plants -
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/CarbonHydrology/

Another factor which I am considering is the uptake of CO2 in rain.  Pure water rapidly absorbs CO2.  Rain would seem to take CO2 from the atmosphere and conduct it into aquifers, rivers and oceans.

Does anyone have any info to quantify this CO2 sink?
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Tigertown

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #658 on: December 20, 2016, 03:54:24 PM »
That is some sink. The moisture is causing runaway fungus growth that is deadly and the CO2 is making bodies of water deadly.
"....and the appointed time came for God to bring to ruin those ruining the earth." Revelation 11:18.

Jim Williams

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #659 on: December 21, 2016, 02:26:18 AM »
Quote
Regarding "potentially in a run-away mode until it hits some limit":  Just would would form that limit?  A cloudy Earth?
I am currently reading up on increased precipitation and carbon cycles.  I have found info on the way that increased CO2 produces increased water uptake, hence increased precipitation.  Increased precipitation as rain appears to be good for plants -
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/CarbonHydrology/

Another factor which I am considering is the uptake of CO2 in rain.  Pure water rapidly absorbs CO2.  Rain would seem to take CO2 from the atmosphere and conduct it into aquifers, rivers and oceans.

Does anyone have any info to quantify this CO2 sink?

So you think that Co2 -> H2O -> less Co2 -> end of excess heat?

I might buy into this, but it seems to me the (H2O -> less C02) is likely to be a very slow part of the cycle.

Jim Williams

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #660 on: December 21, 2016, 02:28:32 AM »
That is some sink. The moisture is causing runaway fungus growth that is deadly and the CO2 is making bodies of water deadly.

A mere detail.  I always have trouble with that "end of the Earth" nonsense.  The Earth couldn't care less if we live or die, and it is nowhere near ending.

Tigertown

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #661 on: December 21, 2016, 03:07:49 AM »
I don't know about all that. Something being deadly does not mean necessarily that it will kill every living thing on Earth, but what it does kill is dead, nevertheless. Plus, the fungus stinks. It is killing snakes, which some people are probably happy about, though I am sure that even snakes serve a purpose, unless the fungus kills rats too. More than likely the rats and roaches will eat the fungus and thrive. So maybe at the very least, in the near future, we are looking  at a bunch of unpleasant  imbalances.
"....and the appointed time came for God to bring to ruin those ruining the earth." Revelation 11:18.

budmantis

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #662 on: December 21, 2016, 06:40:05 AM »
That is some sink. The moisture is causing runaway fungus growth that is deadly and the CO2 is making bodies of water deadly.

A mere detail.  I always have trouble with that "end of the Earth" nonsense.  The Earth couldn't care less if we live or die, and it is nowhere near ending.

I agree with the last sentence of your post, but why do you think TT's post is suggesting an "end of the earth" scenario?

Phil.

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #663 on: December 21, 2016, 02:30:17 PM »
Quote
Regarding "potentially in a run-away mode until it hits some limit":  Just would would form that limit?  A cloudy Earth?
I am currently reading up on increased precipitation and carbon cycles.  I have found info on the way that increased CO2 produces increased water uptake, hence increased precipitation.  Increased precipitation as rain appears to be good for plants -
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/CarbonHydrology/

Another factor which I am considering is the uptake of CO2 in rain.  Pure water rapidly absorbs CO2.  Rain would seem to take CO2 from the atmosphere and conduct it into aquifers, rivers and oceans.

Does anyone have any info to quantify this CO2 sink?

About 5x10^14 m^3 p.a. of rain globally.  The solubility of CO2 in fresh water is ~2 gms/l or 2kg/m^3 at 15ºC and 1atm partial pressure so that would be ~10^15x0.0004 kg/yr or 4x10^8 tonnes/yr. If my calculations are right that's about 5% of fossil fuel CO2 production.  Of course it's unlikely that it's all permanently sequestered. HTH

logicmanPatrick

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #664 on: December 21, 2016, 07:00:35 PM »
Thanks for the replies.

Phil - those numbers are very useful, thanks.
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Rattle

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #665 on: January 03, 2017, 08:47:36 AM »
Are there any good charts or resources looking at sea ice changes in terms of energy budgets, as in how many joules were transferred in freezing or melting ice, how much solar energy is reflected given the state of sea ice and season at a point in time, and how much ghgs have affected loss of energy from the atmosphere to space?

Tigertown

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #666 on: January 03, 2017, 08:52:30 AM »
Are there any good charts or resources looking at sea ice changes in terms of energy budgets, as in how many joules were transferred in freezing or melting ice, how much solar energy is reflected given the state of sea ice and season at a point in time, and how much ghgs have affected loss of energy from the atmosphere to space?
This might get you started, but not sure it will answer all your questions. Main article is a little dated, but you will find other info on the site.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/229038139_Global_energy_accumulation_and_net_heat_emission
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sidd

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #667 on: January 03, 2017, 09:33:57 PM »
Re: heat flux from solar absorption poleward of 50 degrees

http://www.the-cryosphere-discuss.net/tc-2016-279/

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #668 on: January 09, 2017, 06:37:06 AM »
Can anyone link me to a good summary of the trends in the amount of multi-year Arctic sea ice?

Or, for that matter, of the trends in northern hemisphere snow cover?

Pmt111500

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #669 on: January 09, 2017, 06:50:29 AM »
Can anyone link me to a good summary of the trends in the amount of multi-year Arctic sea ice?

Or, for that matter, of the trends in northern hemisphere snow cover?
Short answers.
Approaching zero. :-\ ??? :'(
Rutgers' snow lab had monthly figures of trends at one point in time, not sure anymore. It may be they've buried them somewhere in the anticipation of denialist governement. >:(

crandles

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #670 on: January 09, 2017, 01:34:03 PM »
Can anyone link me to a good summary of the trends in the amount of multi-year Arctic sea ice?

Or, for that matter, of the trends in northern hemisphere snow cover?

Perhaps Figure 4 of
http://www.mdpi.com/2072-4292/8/6/457

For snow extent, yes Rutgers still has graphs and tables of data at the moment:

http://climate.rutgers.edu/snowcover/

Neven

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #671 on: January 09, 2017, 08:20:57 PM »
Can anyone link me to a good summary of the trends in the amount of multi-year Arctic sea ice?

See below.

Quote
Or, for that matter, of the trends in northern hemisphere snow cover?

From Rutgers Global Snow Lab:





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anotheramethyst

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #672 on: January 09, 2017, 10:53:34 PM »
Can anyone link me to a good summary of the trends in the amount of multi-year Arctic sea ice?

Or, for that matter, of the trends in northern hemisphere snow cover?
Short answers.
Approaching zero. :-\ ??? :'(
Rutgers' snow lab had monthly figures of trends at one point in time, not sure anymore. It may be they've buried them somewhere in the anticipation of denialist governement. >:(

In the US?  I thought we always had a denialist government.....  Remember when Obama didn't even bother to show up at the Durban climate talks and the only thing the world heard from the US government was a speech (via video uplink) from one of those denialist Republicans?  Good times.  (sarc)

Seriously, though, I was pissed.  He did eventually make it to Paris, but is anyone really impressed with this new climate deal?  Everything the government has ever done to fight climate change, when it has bothered to do anything, has been embarrassingly little and far too late to matter.  The only good thing about having a Republican in charge is it might motivate the left to actually do something for themselves rather than assuming the president will fix it, because he won't. 

shmengie

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #673 on: January 09, 2017, 11:18:55 PM »
I'm full of stupid questions. . .  Hope this is the right place to ask 'em.

As I understand from NOAA & NASA information, the sea level are rising.  Its attributed primarily to melting land locked ice, as the Earth becomes warmer.

Sea level is also affected by water temperature and the expansion of water molecules as liquids become warmer.

I don't know at which point there will be enough water to cover every scrap of Earth, up to zero.zero land mass.

Two questions:

Would Mt. Everest be the last surviving point of Earth if the oceans continue to expand and swallow everything?

How long at the current warming trends/trajectory until this happens?


I asked NASA the same questions, wonder if I'll get a reply...   I want a simple equation so I can chart the date of ground point zero, based on current CO₂ production and projected date.

I expect it's a long way off into the future and may not be a realistic possibility,..  But as I understand its the most drastic outcome of current trends.  I'm guessing a mean ocean temperature increase of ~ 6C might do it, but that's a wild guess.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2017, 11:32:17 PM by shmengie »
Professor Trump, who'd thought it was that complicated?

Neven

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #674 on: January 09, 2017, 11:27:01 PM »
Don't move to Mt Everest just yet, shmengie.  ;)

I believe that even if all the ice melted on the planet, sea level can't rise more than 80 metres, thermal expansion included.
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magnamentis

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #675 on: January 09, 2017, 11:30:12 PM »
with the current topography there is not sufficient water on this planet to cover the entire land mass. this could only happen should all high elevations dissolve and fill the deeper seabeds to build a more or less homogeneous surface with few or no throughs and no significant mountains.

considering the current state of the planet with tectonic and volcanic activities this cannot be expected and even once that activities would all stop (like on mars) it would take hundreds of millions of years to drag the mountain's material off (corrosion) and spread it over the rest of the planet to fill the valleys and canyons, mostly those below current sea-level of course :-)

hence it's what one could call a non-topic, it's well possible that the coming "red giant" will be faster to make an appearance than all that will happen and at that point there will be no liquid water left due to the heat.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2017, 11:39:43 PM by magnamentis »

Tigertown

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #676 on: January 09, 2017, 11:30:25 PM »
Agree.That will not happen. There is so much land that is so far above sea level that it won't be covered if all the ice melts. Plus, places like Greenland will rebound and reach higher elevations without so much ice  pushing downward.
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crandles

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #677 on: January 10, 2017, 12:06:38 AM »
Don't move to Mt Everest just yet, shmengie.  ;)

I believe that even if all the ice melted on the planet, sea level can't rise more than 80 metres, thermal expansion included.

I thought thermal expansion was not included in the 80m for melting all ice. Think there is a suggestion of +120m sea levels for early eocene:
http://static.springer.com/sgw/documents/650498/application/pdf/978-1-4020-4551-6_Sea+Level+Change,+Last+250+Million+Years_Miller_web.pdf

p885 blue line and blue scale if I am understanding that.

Valdemar

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #678 on: January 10, 2017, 12:23:22 AM »
If you want a taste of a true flooded Earth, I'd read Flood by Stephen Baxter instead.

I always saw sea level rise as being somewhat less of an issue over, say, general climate erraticness causing problems for agriculture.

AbruptSLR

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #679 on: January 10, 2017, 12:32:39 AM »
Don't move to Mt Everest just yet, shmengie.  ;)

I believe that even if all the ice melted on the planet, sea level can't rise more than 80 metres, thermal expansion included.

I thought thermal expansion was not included in the 80m for melting all ice. Think there is a suggestion of +120m sea levels for early eocene:
http://static.springer.com/sgw/documents/650498/application/pdf/978-1-4020-4551-6_Sea+Level+Change,+Last+250+Million+Years_Miller_web.pdf

p885 blue line and blue scale if I am understanding that.

It is my recollection that some of the water (about 40-meters worth) has moved underground subsequent to the Eocene and that it would take significant volcanic activity to get it to resurface.
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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #680 on: January 10, 2017, 01:27:08 AM »
Thank you Neven, those graphs are awesome

Tigertown

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #681 on: January 10, 2017, 02:33:34 AM »
Glad that I live on a Piedmont Plateau known here as The Piedmont Plateau, as it about 330 m above sea level. And the foods ok, too. ;)
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budmantis

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #682 on: January 10, 2017, 07:53:50 AM »
I live in Zephyrhills, Florida. About twenty five miles northeast of Tampa. The closest height of land for us is Leheup Hill, about five miles north of here, at a whopping 240 feet above sea level. That should be sufficient if Greenland melts entirely, although it would require a ferry to get to the mainland!

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #683 on: January 10, 2017, 02:38:54 PM »
If you want a taste of a true flooded Earth, I'd read Flood by Stephen Baxter instead.

I always saw sea level rise as being somewhat less of an issue over, say, general climate erraticness causing problems for agriculture.

As a resident of South Florida, living in a home situated atop an ancient sandbar positioned between the rising Gulf and the soon-to-be-flooded Everglades, sea level rise is most definitely near the top of my personal list of concerns. ;-)

kiwichick16

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #684 on: January 10, 2017, 03:26:05 PM »
@  Jim....get out while your house is still worth something.......nobody knows when the run on the bank will start but the smart money gets out first

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #685 on: January 10, 2017, 04:01:47 PM »
If you want a taste of a true flooded Earth, I'd read Flood by Stephen Baxter instead.

I always saw sea level rise as being somewhat less of an issue over, say, general climate erraticness causing problems for agriculture.

As a resident of South Florida, living in a home situated atop an ancient sandbar positioned between the rising Gulf and the soon-to-be-flooded Everglades, sea level rise is most definitely near the top of my personal list of concerns. ;-)

Florida is on a 50 year lease from the ocean...

mhampton

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #686 on: January 10, 2017, 04:08:10 PM »
I live in Zephyrhills, Florida. About twenty five miles northeast of Tampa. The closest height of land for us is Leheup Hill, about five miles north of here, at a whopping 240 feet above sea level. That should be sufficient if Greenland melts entirely, although it would require a ferry to get to the mainland!

I wonder how long such Florida islands will last after a hurricane or two.  How far below is the bedrock?

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #687 on: January 10, 2017, 04:21:27 PM »

After a quick look at the map,  50% of Florida, the south and the west, are comprised of Quaternary dunes/limestone. My guess is that it is largely porous to water. It will make flood defenses difficult to construct.

Pretty much the whole of Florida is later Cenozoic sedimentary, so young (ish). It's not like building homes on Granite.

jdallen

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #688 on: January 10, 2017, 05:51:50 PM »

After a quick look at the map,  50% of Florida, the south and the west, are comprised of Quaternary dunes/limestone. My guess is that it is largely porous to water. It will make flood defenses difficult to construct.

Pretty much the whole of Florida is later Cenozoic sedimentary, so young (ish). It's not like building homes on Granite.
Flood defenses are *impossible* to construct. Miami is a poster child for that.  Water stacking up anywhere *will* redistribute itself. The only thing to do is go up, and drive something amphibious...
This space for Rent.

magnamentis

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #689 on: January 10, 2017, 06:18:49 PM »
I live in Zephyrhills, Florida. About twenty five miles northeast of Tampa. The closest height of land for us is Leheup Hill, about five miles north of here, at a whopping 240 feet above sea level. That should be sufficient if Greenland melts entirely, although it would require a ferry to get to the mainland!

perhaps sufficient for an elevation but not to take on the entire population from that area once that only a tiny "bump" will stick out of the water :-) i think it's safe to say that not too far in the future one has to forget about most of florida as a livable place, at least the southern half or so.

ktonine

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #690 on: January 10, 2017, 10:44:58 PM »
I live in Zephyrhills, Florida. About twenty five miles northeast of Tampa.

My work takes me down to Dade City usually at least once a year - we have a small lab there.  So I've seen the Zephyrhills signs many times - though I don't know if I've ever actually been there.

budmantis

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #691 on: January 11, 2017, 07:30:00 AM »
If you want a taste of a true flooded Earth, I'd read Flood by Stephen Baxter instead.

I always saw sea level rise as being somewhat less of an issue over, say, general climate erraticness causing problems for agriculture.

As a resident of South Florida, living in a home situated atop an ancient sandbar positioned between the rising Gulf and the soon-to-be-flooded Everglades, sea level rise is most definitely near the top of my personal list of concerns. ;-)

Jim, have you ever visited the Bok Tower in Lake Wales? It sits on the highest point on the Florida peninsula at 298 feet above sea level.

budmantis

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #692 on: January 11, 2017, 07:51:04 AM »

perhaps sufficient for an elevation but not to take on the entire population from that area once that only a tiny "bump" will stick out of the water :-) i think it's safe to say that not too far in the future one has to forget about most of florida as a livable place, at least the southern half or so.

A "bump" sticking out of the water is a good analogy Magnamentis. I think all of So. Florida would be underwater if Greenland were to melt completely. All that would be left would likely be half a dozen islands, and the panhandle.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 07:59:55 AM by budmantis »

budmantis

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #693 on: January 11, 2017, 07:55:12 AM »
I live in Zephyrhills, Florida. About twenty five miles northeast of Tampa.

My work takes me down to Dade City usually at least once a year - we have a small lab there.  So I've seen the Zephyrhills signs many times - though I don't know if I've ever actually been there.

Dade City is a really nice place. My wife and I enjoy going up there for the Kumquat festival and other activities. Zephyrhills is about ten miles south on Rt. 301.

anotheramethyst

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #694 on: January 11, 2017, 08:43:13 AM »
I live in the Midwest so I'm safe from sea level rise, but my home town, where my parents live is on the Texas coast.  It doesn't get as much press as Florida, but the average sea level for the entire coastal plain of Texas is 1 foot of elevation.  So I'm trying to talk my parents into moving.  I don't think they have to wait for much of Greenland to melt to be underwater.  Like I said, it doesn't get much press, probably because so much of it is nearly unpopulated.  (When hurricane Allen literally flattened half my town in 1980, it flooded everything, every building was immersed in the entire town.  Half the buildings were completely destroyed.  You can read about it on wikipedia today, where it describes all the damage as "luckily it hit an unpopulated area."  Thanks for the sympathy, wikipedia!  )

Phil.

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #695 on: January 11, 2017, 01:31:17 PM »
If you want a taste of a true flooded Earth, I'd read Flood by Stephen Baxter instead.

I always saw sea level rise as being somewhat less of an issue over, say, general climate erraticness causing problems for agriculture.

As a resident of South Florida, living in a home situated atop an ancient sandbar positioned between the rising Gulf and the soon-to-be-flooded Everglades, sea level rise is most definitely near the top of my personal list of concerns. ;-)

Jim, have you ever visited the Bok Tower in Lake Wales? It sits on the highest point on the Florida peninsula at 298 feet above sea level.

It's quite an impressive place, I went there with my daughter and granddaughter last year.

magnamentis

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #696 on: January 11, 2017, 01:41:32 PM »
that would be an example + the link to calculate other values:

http://geology.com/sea-level-rise/




RoxTheGeologist

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #697 on: January 11, 2017, 03:55:35 PM »
I live in the Midwest so I'm safe from sea level rise, but my home town, where my parents live is on the Texas coast.  It doesn't get as much press as Florida, but the average sea level for the entire coastal plain of Texas is 1 foot of elevation.  So I'm trying to talk my parents into moving.  I don't think they have to wait for much of Greenland to melt to be underwater.  Like I said, it doesn't get much press, probably because so much of it is nearly unpopulated.  (When hurricane Allen literally flattened half my town in 1980, it flooded everything, every building was immersed in the entire town.  Half the buildings were completely destroyed.  You can read about it on wikipedia today, where it describes all the damage as "luckily it hit an unpopulated area."  Thanks for the sympathy, wikipedia!  )

River valleys are very prone to flooding during periods of sea level rise. It's not just the coast line.
St Paul, in Minnesota, is only at an elevation of 702', It's on the Mississippi, and 1000 miles from the ocean. We will see huge incursion of sea water up the valley and extensive flooding in areas of the Midwest that are close to rivers.

Laurent

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #698 on: January 11, 2017, 07:10:49 PM »
For the moment we are on our way for 50 meters, can we have more ? I don't know, I have a doubt about the reliability of these graphs... (I am not talking of the graph with CO2-temp-SLR)

Tigertown

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Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #699 on: January 11, 2017, 11:51:36 PM »
As these are sending waves into the Arctic, I guess that makes my question relevant. Re: Huge areas of disturbances which are causing large waves, as seen on links.

https://earth.nullschool.net/#current/ocean/primary/waves/overlay=significant_wave_height/orthographic=-12.15,57.45,1100/loc=-8.518,63.993

https://earth.nullschool.net/#current/ocean/primary/waves/overlay=significant_wave_height/orthographic=-193.33,39.44,1100/loc=177.804,35.207

Have these always been normal for this time of year, and as frequent and plentiful as these are currently?
"....and the appointed time came for God to bring to ruin those ruining the earth." Revelation 11:18.