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opensheart

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Hadley Cell configuration
« on: January 30, 2016, 05:38:40 PM »
Dear Forum,   Hadley Cells have not had a topic in awhile, so it recommended I start a new topic instead of reactivating an old one.

My understanding of planetary circulation systems like Hadley Cells changed today.  I would appreciate your feedback.  Am I on the right track or further from it?

I used to think the number of cells was changeable.  We currently have 3 cells, Hadley, Ferrel, and Polar.   Lower the temperature enough and the Polar would grow and the Hadley would fade until you had just two.  Lower it still more and you would have just one, a Polar cell over a snowball earth.  And by the same thinking, raise the temperature from our current arrangement enough and the Polar cell goes away.  Raise it still more, and we get to a hot house world with just one cell, the Hadley cell which would stretch from the equator to the pole.

But today my understanding shifted.  I'm now thinking that these cells are not interchangeable.  You can't replace one with another.  Because of a bunch of math and physics and things like planetary rotation and axle tilt, you will always have 3 cells, or at least the potential for 3 cells.

They are more like a series of buckets.   There will always be 3 buckets.  You always start by filling the first bucket.   When the first bucket gets full enough it starts spilling over into the second bucket.   Fill the first and second buckets enough and it will start spilling over into the third.
 
Even a low energy/low heat planet (like a snowball Earth or current conditions on Mars) would still have a Hadley cell.  (It would have the potential for the others, there just would not be enough heat/energy to activate them).    Meaning as soon as a planet gets enough atmosphere and enough solar heat/energy the first cell, the Hadley cell would start up.

As the heat/energy rises, and the original Hadley cell raises its territory above freezing, the heat/energy starts to spill over into the 2nd cell (Ferrel).  Moisture from this 2nd cell would still travel north and rise up near its northern boundary, which would most likely be over the edge of the great ice sheet.  The rising air would dump its precipitation just beyond the edge, which would fall as snow and help build the ice sheet.  But beyond that there would be little heat/energy conveyed.

Raise the heat/energy enough and the 2nd cell fills up enough to start spilling over into the third cell.    Now the polar cell is receiving enough heat/energy that the great ice sheets pull way back and the ground may melt free of snow in the summer.

Raise the heat/energy still more and the 3rd cell fills up enough for its annual average to stay above freezing.   Oh it may still form ice and snow in the winter, but it will all melt out in the summer, there will be no permafrost or permanent ice sheet.

Raise the heat/energy still more, and all the cells will stay above freezing all year long. 

Then no matter how much you raise the heat/energy.   As long as there is still atmosphere,  there will still be 3 cells.  As I read today, even Venus with its extreme heat/energy still has 3 cells.  There is a huge Hadley cell.    There is a narrow “Polar Rim” as they call it.  And then there is a Polar Vortex, a split polar vortex with two permanent (?) centers.

So once there is enough heat/energy to activate 3 cells, there will always be 3 cells in some form or another.  The 1st cell can expand farther from the equator.  The 2nd and 3rd cells can be compressed into a smaller space.  The 2nd and 3rd cells can heat up and become more energetic.  But it is not the case of  one cell being consumed by another.

crandles

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Re: Hadley Cell configuration
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2016, 08:47:30 PM »
Probably a silly comment made by someone with far too little relevant knowledge but...

Does Jupiter atmosphere show you can have more than 3 cells. Of course there is a lot more room for more than 3 cells there.

Earths size and speed of rotation are rather fixed making the effect of Coriolis fixed making a typical size of a cell. The tropopause height difference between pole and equator is variable with global warming and ozone change, and this makes some movement in location of cells possible. However given typical size of cells for Earth's speed of rotation and size of Earth, wouldn't the movement needed to make a different number of cells be on a vastly different scale to the changes in tropopause height that we might cause?

Less tropopause height difference may make jet stream wavier but does this change the average size of cells much? (Some temporary locations where cell unusually large and some temporary locations where cell unusually small needn't change the average much.)

 

Pmt111500

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Re: Hadley Cell configuration
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2016, 05:06:27 AM »
In my opinion two or four cell systems for NH are possible for summertime. They're hardly stable through winter as there's darkness in arctic. In SH, even the continents are helping to kerp the 3 cell system going on, but the bucket paraphrase still applies. The plantlife would be helping the orbitally driven 3 cellbststem in the NH, but the changes in the temperatures made by man might change the division of forced hibernation, optional hibernation and evergreens areas quite a lot. Of course there is forced hibernation in the far north due lack of sunlight be temperatures however high, but the evergreens may well spread pretty far north. The pretty sinple schematic of the three cells is easily memorized, but in RL the boundaries of these are not always easily spotted in NH, though in SH this has been, and likely will be, easy.
Cooling the outside by heat pump.

johnm33

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Re: Hadley Cell configuration
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2016, 12:09:07 PM »
My opinion shifts fairly often on this, so have a pinch of salt handy.
With the water arriving in the Arctic now at about 10c I think it's safe to assume it's only going to get warmer with time. At present we have a tropical max of about 35c and a polar min of about -35c [in winter]. It's the gradient between these that drives the HFP cell system. Whilst the Arctic is ice covered that's likely to persist, but once the ice goes it'll be what 0-15c? at the pole, winter/summer. So the cold pole shifts, and wherever it goes will give us an assymetric atmospheric circulation pattern.
My guess is the cold pole will establish itself southwest of Hudson, Hudson will freeze over and a persistent low become established, where all moisture drops out of the air. Constant winds bring moisture down from the warmer ice free arctic, and the winter temperature drops to -35c or below. Eventually there's enough snowfall there to survive the summer melt.
Once this happens there'll be a cold pole at what 55-60 deg. north? and the atmospheric circulation will adopt a very different mode and it may take some considerable time for anything like a pattern, or  stable climatic zones, to establish. Again a guess but I think it'll look like a single cell system with persistent 'sinks' over Hudson, north-west Europe and the Himalayas

wili

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Re: Hadley Cell configuration
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2016, 01:39:46 PM »
Why wouldn't the 'cold pole' shift to over Greenland?
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

magnamentis

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Re: Hadley Cell configuration
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2016, 04:53:53 PM »
agree, that's where it will shift to  8) let's see, things are hard to pridict but elevation alone will put it there, i'm not even sure whether it can't already be considered now being there, except if one would count sealevel temps, then the ocean would always keep the coastline at higher temps of course.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2016, 08:49:10 PM by magnamentis »

DoomInTheUK

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Re: Hadley Cell configuration
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2016, 06:38:03 PM »
I'll add to the pile of salt required.

My understanding was that an odd number of cells would be stable. So 2 cells will quickly collapse to either 1 or 3. The cold air sinking at the pole and hot rising from the equator will fix two ends of the cell arrangement. With an even number of cells you would have air trying to rise and fall at the junction which soon gets a bit messy.

johnm33

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Re: Hadley Cell configuration
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2016, 09:25:52 PM »
Why wouldn't the 'cold pole' shift to over Greenland?

Hi wili I think you're right in the near term, but Greenland is already melting and we still have an ice covered Arctic ocean, well within historic norms, for most of the year. Once the ice cover goes northern Greenland will be too close to the warm ocean to maintain ice cover all year round, Peterman/Humbolt and Zachariae Istrom are all on the move soon to be joined by 79N.
 The ice in Beaufort near Banks island is already thinning and allowing more and fresher water through the CAA, some of which makes it's way through to Foxe Basin and Hudson Bay a process which I think is accelerating. If it does the ice in Hudson will grow thicker and last later into the season. Once that happens all it takes is a late winter storm or two to cover it with enough snow to last out the 'melt'. Then there's a cold pole far from any ocean with a low pressure system constantly reforming over it, and feeding it. Baffin and Labrador will see the passage of the least saline coldest water through to the south, to join, slow and cool the surface waters of the NAD.
       If this happens Northwest Europe will be much colder and could become a lesser cold pole between Norway and the Urals, further east will be warmed by the ocean. With a warm Arctic ocean it's probable that the whole Eurasian east-west moutain range Pyranees-Himalayas will form seasonal cold sinks and if they accumulate enough snow, from north and south,  the Himalayas/Tibet will form a third cold pole.
 So it may be a 3 cell over the Pacific but assymetric cold sinks are going to disrupt the model even more than now elsewhere.

bbr2314

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Re: Hadley Cell configuration
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2016, 10:13:27 PM »
johnm is 100% right, i believe -- just look at the EURO. we still have a decent portion of the arctic ice, although the heat it has capped is already manifesting in a version of what he describes, i think.


JMP

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Re: Hadley Cell configuration
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2016, 09:18:54 PM »
If in fact the Earth is constrained to three cells I suspect it may be in large part because of the Coriolis effect - something which I only wish I understood better - but I'll give this a shot - somebody correct me if I'm wrong.   

As I understand it - the lowest (NH) Hadley cell boundary is tied to the equator, that cell's size is (in addition to the size of the Earth) constrained by the limits of the velocity of - the inertial mass of the atmosphere - and the "importance" of that velocity is determined by its Rossby Number. 

To probably over simplify - (all this seems to say that) increased velocity get's spun off into cyclones and tornadoes and since the mass of the air molecules remains relatively constant, and the rotation of the earth is relatively constant, the size of the Hadley cells would then too be relatively constant as well. 

mati

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Re: Hadley Cell configuration
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2016, 04:08:27 AM »
If in fact the Earth is constrained to three cells I suspect it may be in large part because of the Coriolis effect - something which I only wish I understood better - but I'll give this a shot - somebody correct me if I'm wrong.   

As I understand it - the lowest (NH) Hadley cell boundary is tied to the equator, that cell's size is (in addition to the size of the Earth) constrained by the limits of the velocity of - the inertial mass of the atmosphere - and the "importance" of that velocity is determined by its Rossby Number. 

To probably over simplify - (all this seems to say that) increased velocity get's spun off into cyclones and tornadoes and since the mass of the air molecules remains relatively constant, and the rotation of the earth is relatively constant, the size of the Hadley cells would then too be relatively constant as well.

nope
http://www.math.ualberta.ca/ami/CAMQ/pdf_files/vol_17/17_1/17_1e.pdf\
and so it goes

JMP

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Re: Hadley Cell configuration
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2016, 06:35:10 AM »
If in fact the Earth is constrained to three cells I suspect it may be in large part because of the Coriolis effect - something which I only wish I understood better - but I'll give this a shot - somebody correct me if I'm wrong.   

As I understand it - the lowest (NH) Hadley cell boundary is tied to the equator, that cell's size is (in addition to the size of the Earth) constrained by the limits of the velocity of - the inertial mass of the atmosphere - and the "importance" of that velocity is determined by its Rossby Number. 

To probably over simplify - (all this seems to say that) increased velocity get's spun off into cyclones and tornadoes and since the mass of the air molecules remains relatively constant, and the rotation of the earth is relatively constant, the size of the Hadley cells would then too be relatively constant as well.

nope
http://www.math.ualberta.ca/ami/CAMQ/pdf_files/vol_17/17_1/17_1e.pdf\

Your link doesn't work.   

JMP

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Re: Hadley Cell configuration
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2016, 06:52:52 AM »
http://www.math.ualberta.ca/ami/CAMQ/pdf_files/vol_17/17_1/17_1e.pdf\

Speaking hypothetically since the link does not work.  ;)
(Not to mention the big IF (if, if, if,) which I started with)
If I were to select a quotation from the paper from such a (hypothetical?) link I'd first quote:

"Further work is required to test the implications of this simple model, which is but a first step toward a model with a more Earth-like atmosphere on a planetary scale."

Clearly, that's not anything like proof of anything.


   
« Last Edit: February 20, 2016, 07:10:06 AM by JMP »

Sleepy

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Re: Hadley Cell configuration
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2016, 07:56:50 AM »
Here's a link to a post I made last year:
http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1107.msg43463.html#msg43463
My personal opinion is still leaning towards this quote: "We would need to slow down the Earths rotation towards the same speed as Venus for that to happen."

With that I'm going into hibernation, and like the Arctic ground squirrel, either wakes up rejuvenated and resilient or sleeps forever.
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150218-arctic-ground-squirrels-supercool-slumber

A-Team

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Re: Hadley Cell configuration
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2016, 12:53:06 PM »
The link to that 2009 paper is easily fixed: just drop the backwards slash.

The paper is clearly written, unpretentious, and makes plain its many simplifying assumptions. It was published in a minor applied math journal by two retired professors and has been cited 2 times in 6 years (it deserved better). You can learn about Ekman, Burger (Rossby waves), Froude and Péclet numbers in it.

Is this the ultimate article on Hadley cells? The authors say point-blank it is not, so it is a stretch suggest otherwise. Of our 882 distinguished forum members, at most 4-5 are acquainted with the partial differential equations of fluid dynamics (eg Navier-Stokes-Boussinesq in rotating spherical shell); the rest would just be blowing smoke to cite such a paper, perhaps an unread hit from a google search for 'hadley cell'.

http://www.math.ualberta.ca/ami/CAMQ/pdf_files/vol_17/17_1/17_1e.pdf

Quote
The atmosphere in this model is a Boussinesq fluid; that is, it satisfies the Navier-Stokes equations and has density that is independent of pressure but depends linearly on temperature. This is the simplest mathematical fluid that exhibits physically realistic convection. Boussinesq fluids are widely used in studies of convection, even though the Earth’s atmosphere is not exactly Boussinesq
They wrote an earlier article in 2008 and presented similar material in 2011 seminar that provided the graphic below (which looks borrowed from IPCC). They had a contribution to make here but needed to collaborate with climate science types for it to have any impact.

Hysteresis in a rotating differentially heated spherical shell of Boussinesq fluid
http://faculty.uoit.ca/lewis/pubs/Lewis_SphericalShell.pdf free full 2008

Hadley cell expansion in today’s climate and paleoclimates
https://www.fields.utoronto.ca/programs/scientific/10-11/biomathstat/Langford_W.pdf free full 2011

DrTskoul

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Re: Hadley Cell configuration
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2016, 03:22:24 PM »
Cool paper! Explores the minimum set of physics needed to generate the various cells. Not too fancy but with just the right level and type of assumptions.

jai mitchell

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Re: Hadley Cell configuration
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2016, 07:50:04 PM »
 :o
collapse of the Inter-Tropical Convergence Zone South-East of the Hawaiian Islands

I don't know what it is, if it is an anomaly that happens now and then or what, but this is something that I have not observed before.



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Pmt111500

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Re: Hadley Cell configuration
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2016, 02:50:48 AM »
:o
collapse of the Inter-Tropical Convergence Zone South-East of the Hawaiian Islands

I don't know what it is, if it is...

A backlash of the dissipating El Nino?
Cooling the outside by heat pump.

JMP

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Re: Hadley Cell configuration
« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2016, 10:06:30 AM »
:o
collapse of the Inter-Tropical Convergence Zone South-East of the Hawaiian Islands

I don't know what it is, if it is...

A backlash of the dissipating El Nino?

Wondering... What are the past records like for similar events? 

Robert Scribbler's blog post from yesterday also supports the idea that the boundaries between cells are at least becoming more chaotic.     http://robertscribbler.com/2016/03/08/mangled-jet-stream-river-of-moisture-set-to-deliver-extreme-flooding-to-mississippi-river-valley/   Maybe I'm mistaken but one thing I'm not seeing is a poleward movement of the polar jet stream.  Gotta confess I haven't been paying much if any similar attention to the subtropical jet stream but I gather it is moving poleward?     

jai mitchell

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Re: Hadley Cell configuration
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2016, 07:55:27 PM »
  http://robertscribbler.com/2016/03/08/mangled-jet-stream-river-of-moisture-set-to-deliver-extreme-flooding-to-mississippi-river-valley/   Maybe I'm mistaken but one thing I'm not seeing is a poleward movement of the polar jet stream.  Gotta confess I haven't been paying much if any similar attention to the subtropical jet stream but I gather it is moving poleward?   

yes, given my observations from a couple of years ago.

http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,784.0.html
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