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Author Topic: Qué se ficieron ?  (Read 15744 times)

oren

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Re: Qué se ficieron ?
« Reply #100 on: August 18, 2018, 02:33:41 PM »
Despite this deplorable attack and its tragic outcome, I think the blame should be laid on those who decided to use such bombs for their purposes - the Saudis, and partially on those who decided to give them these bombs - US officials. Laser guided MK-82 bombs have been around for 40 years, Lockheed Martin makes the guidance kit, while General Dynamics makes the bomb itself AFAIK. Blaming Lockheed Martin "misses the mark" IMHO.

TerryM

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Re: Qué se ficieron ?
« Reply #101 on: August 19, 2018, 06:35:34 AM »
Many may pull back from purchasing Saudi-Tesla products, even Tesla-Saudi ones.
Terry

Lurk

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Re: Qué se ficieron ?
« Reply #102 on: August 19, 2018, 10:23:44 AM »
Blaming Lockheed Martin "misses the mark" IMHO.

Quite so. So long as the bomb doesn't miss it's mark.

Then Lockheed Martin would be out of the bomb business...

Think of all those moms and pops who would lose some of their SS savings and then couldn't retire to Florida. :( 
“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” ― Soren Kierkegaard

sidd

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Re: Qué se ficieron ?
« Reply #103 on: August 19, 2018, 09:16:15 PM »
Rehabilitation of war criminals proceeds apace: The new heroes of the left:

" ... the nation’s spies are enjoying a renaissance in their public standing, particularly among Democrats ..."

" ... Brennan, Clapper, and Hayden have, in the space of a couple of years’ worth of Trump criticism, seemingly erased the massive scandals that once clung to their names ... "

"Brennan, Clapper, and Hayden are not dispassionate guardians of democratic ideals and decency. They’re the former executives of what Matt Taibbi has accurately called “an authoritarian state-within-a-state,” who created and promoted illiberal programs of torture, assassination, and spying, and have brazenly, and often illegally, lied to the public and the lawmakers who are supposed to hold them to account."

" ... criticism of Trump from figures like Brennan, Clapper, and Hayden is motivated at least as much by their abiding loyalty to the intelligence apparatus he disdains, their longstanding hawkishness when it comes to Russia, and the need to distract from their own checkered histories, as it is by high-minded principles of democracy and patriotism. Every time one of these men does an interview, writes an op-ed, or goes on a talk show, we shouldn’t forget that until very recently, their names were associated with scandal and censure."

Unfortunately the author actually believes there is such a thing called "American Democracy" ...

"Ensuring the survival of American democracy will eventually require taking on this shadow government, too — a task made all the more difficult when liberals turn its architects into idols."

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2018/08/john-brennan-trump-hayden-clapper

You lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas.

sidd

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Neven

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Re: Qué se ficieron ?
« Reply #105 on: August 29, 2018, 10:23:40 AM »
What kind of world is this ?

https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/suspected-cia-black-site-in-thailand-to-become-tourist-destination-20180827-p5001o.html

sidd

I have a good name: Waterboardworld!

Rehabilitation of war criminals proceeds apace: The new heroes of the left:

" ... the nation’s spies are enjoying a renaissance in their public standing, particularly among Democrats ..."

" ... Brennan, Clapper, and Hayden have, in the space of a couple of years’ worth of Trump criticism, seemingly erased the massive scandals that once clung to their names ... "

"Brennan, Clapper, and Hayden are not dispassionate guardians of democratic ideals and decency. They’re the former executives of what Matt Taibbi has accurately called “an authoritarian state-within-a-state,” who created and promoted illiberal programs of torture, assassination, and spying, and have brazenly, and often illegally, lied to the public and the lawmakers who are supposed to hold them to account."

" ... criticism of Trump from figures like Brennan, Clapper, and Hayden is motivated at least as much by their abiding loyalty to the intelligence apparatus he disdains, their longstanding hawkishness when it comes to Russia, and the need to distract from their own checkered histories, as it is by high-minded principles of democracy and patriotism. Every time one of these men does an interview, writes an op-ed, or goes on a talk show, we shouldn’t forget that until very recently, their names were associated with scandal and censure."

Unfortunately the author actually believes there is such a thing called "American Democracy" ...

"Ensuring the survival of American democracy will eventually require taking on this shadow government, too — a task made all the more difficult when liberals turn its architects into idols."

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2018/08/john-brennan-trump-hayden-clapper

You lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas.

sidd

I watched Brennan in an interview with Bill Maher yesterday. It remains pretty mindboggling.
Compare, compare, compare

Lurk

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Re: Qué se ficieron ?
« Reply #106 on: August 29, 2018, 01:51:53 PM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormwood_(miniseries)

https://www.netflix.com/ca/title/80059446

"an investigation into a heavily reported subject that ultimately yields no new information." says the Atlantic. But that's not quite accurate. New information does arise but no one (eg Sy Hersh) can openly say what that is. It's left for the viewer to decide what that might be. Not that hard to work out either. For nothing much of anything has really changed since the 1950s, the 1970s, the 1990s to today.

The doco is tedious, the facts themselves, and how the history unfolded is fascinatingly riveting.
https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2017/12/wormwood-errol-morris-review-netflix-cia-mkultra/548486/

Sleep well America for the "good guys" are standing at the battlements defending your liberty and democracy so you don't need to worry about it. Everything is in good order. 
“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” ― Soren Kierkegaard

Lurk

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Re: Qué se ficieron ?
« Reply #107 on: August 29, 2018, 02:17:02 PM »
“Manufacturing consent” is Noam Chomsky's phrase, and he wrote an important book (long ago) about how the media uses five propaganda-based filters to support ruling elites. These are

    1. ownership for profit,
    2. advertising,
    3. elite complicity,
    4. attacking alternative narratives,
    5. creating diversionary boogie men

http://www.integralworld.net/dillard19.html

It's good to keep reminding myself that those in power are there by virtue of being able (via media) to control the narrative. Once that can't control the narrative, they lose.

Great thought provoking section on How we manufacture our own consent :)
“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” ― Soren Kierkegaard

sidd

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Re: Qué se ficieron ?
« Reply #108 on: September 11, 2018, 12:43:55 AM »
On third of psychologists in the American Psychological Association are now cool with torture:

"What makes the new vote less than completely satisfying, however, is this: the 2015 vote establishing that policy was 157-to-1. This year, a third of the council was ready to send psychologists back to Guantánamo. Like much of the rest of Donald Trump’s United States, the APA seems to be in the process of backsliding on torture."

"Obama also argued that nothing would be "gained by spending our time and energy laying blame for the past." He couldn’t have been more mistaken. "

https://original.antiwar.com/Rebecca_Gordon/2018/09/09/psychologists-say-no-to-torture/

sidd

johnm33

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Re: Qué se ficieron ?
« Reply #109 on: September 11, 2018, 01:27:43 AM »
"One third of psychologists in the American Psychological Association are now cool with torture:"
You don't have to read much history to realise morality is a moveable feast, these guys seem to be standing on marbles.

sidd

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Re: Qué se ficieron ?
« Reply #110 on: October 15, 2018, 11:51:27 PM »
Sjursen on the myths of the West:

“I have come to kill Indians and believe it is right and honorable to use any means under God’s heaven to kill Indians.”

"By 1860, only 30,000 California Indians (out of 150,000) remained alive"

 “The only good Indians I ever saw were dead.”

“possession is a disease with them [white men].”

"In 1870, the Supreme Court ruled that Congress had the power to “supersede or even annul treaties” with Indian tribes. "

"The original (Hispanic) residents of California and the Southwest were promised their private landholdings would be protected under the provisions of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo ... It was not to be. "

 “Mexicans have no business in this country. The men were made to be shot at, and the women were made for our purposes. I’m a white man—I am! A Mexican is pretty near black. I hate all Mexicans.”

"Are “undocumented” Mexican immigrants “illegal intruders,” or rightful residents of “Occupied America”? "

"Indians had adhered to treaties more faithfully than whites and were rewarded with banishment, theft, war and at times extermination."

" [Out of] five of the poorest U.S. counties ...  four—Buffalo, Todd and Shannon in South Dakota and Wade Hampton in Alaska ...  are all Indian reservations ... or places with major Native American majorities"

"These counties, each filled with thousands of tragic individual stories, are living relics of our past; of each phase of the U.S. government’s calamitous Indian policy—first, removal, then concentration, followed by confinement to the reservation, and, finally, hopeless forced assimilation. "

https://www.truthdig.com/articles/american-history-for-truthdiggers-lies-we-tell-ourselves-about-the-old-west/

sidd

Human Habitat Index

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Re: Qué se ficieron ?
« Reply #111 on: October 16, 2018, 01:50:23 AM »
Sjursen on the myths of the West:

“I have come to kill Indians and believe it is right and honorable to use any means under God’s heaven to kill Indians.”

"By 1860, only 30,000 California Indians (out of 150,000) remained alive"

 “The only good Indians I ever saw were dead.”

“possession is a disease with them [white men].”

"In 1870, the Supreme Court ruled that Congress had the power to “supersede or even annul treaties” with Indian tribes. "

"The original (Hispanic) residents of California and the Southwest were promised their private landholdings would be protected under the provisions of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo ... It was not to be. "

 “Mexicans have no business in this country. The men were made to be shot at, and the women were made for our purposes. I’m a white man—I am! A Mexican is pretty near black. I hate all Mexicans.”

"Are “undocumented” Mexican immigrants “illegal intruders,” or rightful residents of “Occupied America”? "

"Indians had adhered to treaties more faithfully than whites and were rewarded with banishment, theft, war and at times extermination."

" [Out of] five of the poorest U.S. counties ...  four—Buffalo, Todd and Shannon in South Dakota and Wade Hampton in Alaska ...  are all Indian reservations ... or places with major Native American majorities"

"These counties, each filled with thousands of tragic individual stories, are living relics of our past; of each phase of the U.S. government’s calamitous Indian policy—first, removal, then concentration, followed by confinement to the reservation, and, finally, hopeless forced assimilation. "

https://www.truthdig.com/articles/american-history-for-truthdiggers-lies-we-tell-ourselves-about-the-old-west/

sidd

This mirrors the history of the dispossession and genocide of Australian Aborigines.

 >:( :( :'(
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That principle is contempt prior to investigation. - Herbert Spencer

sidd

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Re: Qué se ficieron ?
« Reply #112 on: October 17, 2018, 10:38:10 PM »
Another soul in limbo: Defense counsel on Zubadayah:

"The infamous torture memo was, in fact, written specifically to legitimize Abu Zubaydah’s torture."

"This document described Abu Zubaydah as “the third or fourth man in al-Qaida” and “a senior Usama Bin Laden lieutenant” who had been “involved in every major al-Qaida terrorist operation” and was “a planner of the 11 September hijackings.” He “managed a network of [al-Qaeda] training camps,” “directed the start-up of a Bin Laden cell in Jordan,” and “served as al-Qaeda’s coordinator of external contacts, or foreign communications.” He was also alleged to be “engaged in ongoing terrorism planning against US interests.” For good measure, he had supposedly written the organization’s “manual on resistance techniques” and had a particular expertise in thwarting conventional interrogations. "

"The “facts” recounted above to justify this torture were all false. Abu Zubaydah was no lieutenant to Osama bin Laden. He held no position in al-Qaeda, senior or otherwise. He had no part in September 11 or any other al-Qaeda operations. He did not operate a network of al-Qaeda camps, open an al-Qaeda cell in Jordan, or manage al-Qaeda’s external communications. He did not draft any resistance manual, for al-Qaeda or anyone else, and had no special expertise in resisting interrogations.

The government no longer maintains that these assertions are true, and now concedes that Abu Zubaydah was never a member of al-Qaeda."

"The CIA has likewise admitted error, and now affirms that Abu Zubaydah was not part of al-Qaeda. This is also the conclusion of the United Nations Security Council, which has removed Abu Zubaydah from its Islamic State and al-Qaeda sanctions list, based on the earlier recommendation of the UN ombudsman, who similarly concluded that Abu Zubaydah was not a member of al-Qaeda. And years ago, the Department of Justice withdrew all allegations that Abu Zubaydah had a connection to the September 11 attacks or played any part in al-Qaeda’s terrorism."

"Because the demonization of radical Islam has been uncritically embraced by a significant portion of the population and a great many of our elected officials, there is widespread (though not universal) agreement that the federal government may do things to followers of radical Islam that it would never do to a conventional offender"

"because regardless of what he may have done, regardless of whether he is “innocent,” we should not authorize the government to treat him in a way that we would never tolerate if it were done to a dog, or to imprison him incommunicado, in a small, windowless cell, without charges or meaningful process, until he dies, forgotten by a world that has long since moved on."

"the government relies on people continuing to imagine him a monster. Because if he is a monster, the government was right to torture him. If he is a monster, it is not just lawful but good that he remains imprisoned indefinitely. If he is a monster, we may do with him what we will.

But there are no monsters. There is only us."

Read the whole thing:

https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/09/28/the-innocence-of-abu-zubaydah/

sidd