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Author Topic: Becoming Vegan.  (Read 21621 times)

mostly_lurking

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #150 on: August 16, 2018, 11:50:28 AM »
One must take into account also the methane component
https://owlcation.com/stem/Meat-Methane-and-Global-Warming



SteveMDFP

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #151 on: August 16, 2018, 04:41:54 PM »
One must take into account also the methane component
https://owlcation.com/stem/Meat-Methane-and-Global-Warming

Yes, but it's worse than this.   Somewhere on the board, AbruptSLR cited a paper that shows a big difference from what's stated in the reference here:
" Scientists have calculated that over the next century the global-warming potential of methane is 28 times higher than for carbon dioxide."

Yes, a given molecule of methane has about 28 times the GWP of a given molecule of CO2 over the course of a century.  It would be much higher except for the shorter lifetime of that methane molecule.

However the relative lifetime of a molecule of methane is an irrelevant factoid as long as levels of methane as a whole are stable or rising.   The immediate impact of that molecule is well over 100 times the impact of the CO2 molecule (I have yet to see a precise number).

As long as consumed methane in the atmosphere keep getting replaced by more methane molecules, the shorter lifetime is irrelevant.

So, we're even more screwed than this article conveys.

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #152 on: August 16, 2018, 05:18:00 PM »
One must take into account also the methane component
https://owlcation.com/stem/Meat-Methane-and-Global-Warming

Yes, but it's worse than this.   Somewhere on the board, AbruptSLR cited a paper that shows a big difference from what's stated in the reference here:
" Scientists have calculated that over the next century the global-warming potential of methane is 28 times higher than for carbon dioxide."

Yes, a given molecule of methane has about 28 times the GWP of a given molecule of CO2 over the course of a century.  It would be much higher except for the shorter lifetime of that methane molecule.

However the relative lifetime of a molecule of methane is an irrelevant factoid as long as levels of methane as a whole are stable or rising.   The immediate impact of that molecule is well over 100 times the impact of the CO2 molecule (I have yet to see a precise number).

As long as consumed methane in the atmosphere keep getting replaced by more methane molecules, the shorter lifetime is irrelevant.

So, we're even more screwed than this article conveys.

I'm nominating this for comment of the month.


I think it is fascinating that neither you nor I (nor anyone else I've ever asked) has a decent number for annual/immediate methane CO2 equivalent.  The 100 year timeline is almost always used, which drastically downplays (4x-6x?) the pertinent effect.

Considering the enormous overall attention paid to climate change and the lack of available data for current true CO2e, it is tempting to think it's some sort of conspiracy.  However, like many supposed conspiracy, I imagine it is an emergent property of human nature. Each and every facet  gets downplayed due to human's desire to be taken seriously. The genuine situation is catastrophic, but if an individual (no matter how clearly and concisely) explains the predicament, s/he will be judged negatively by those around her/him.

The effect of this is constant underestimation of the scale and rapidity of our impending downfall.  Temperatures are rising faster than people accept. Ice is melting faster than people accept. CO2e is higher than people accept. There is greater lag in the system than people accept. Lifestyles would need to change more than people accept. Less techno-magic-fixes are being discovered than people accept. Loss of wilderness habitat is greater than people accept. Toxic and plastic pollution is worse than people accept. It's totally systemic, and all together creates a situation where the only people who are close to correct about our situation are so far out of the mainstream that they are considered quacks.

Veganism (to stay topic germane) I don't really understand. Raising chickens for eggs and meat or goats for milk and meat makes sense to me. Hunting wild game makes sense. Biologically humans look like omnivores. A little meat and some regular animal products seem natural.  A vegetable that someone else grew in a huge mono-culture and then shipped to me, has to be worse than eating an egg from my foraging chickens. Veganism is obviously better than factory farm meat guzzling behavior, but I think it gets over hyped as an ideal.

big time oops

Sigmetnow

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #153 on: August 16, 2018, 05:44:42 PM »
Twitter user Clint Smith is looking to eat less meat.  He requested meal suggestions, which generated a lengthy thread with lots of ideas:

https://twitter.com/clintsmithiii/status/1029856051657670658
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jacksmith4tx

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #154 on: August 16, 2018, 06:10:11 PM »
Roundup Chemical in Your Cereal
Aug. 15, 2018 -- Lab tests of cereals and snack bars made with oats found that many are tainted with the weedkiller glyphosate. Glyphosate is the active ingredient in the widely used pesticide Roundup, which has been linked to cancer.

The tests were commissioned by the nonprofit Environmental Working Group after internal FDA emails surfaced last year showing chemists at the agency were testing wheat, corn, and oat foods for glyphosate and had found “a fair amount in all of them,” but had not yet released those results to the public. The emails were obtained by investigative journalists working for the nonprofit U.S. Right to Know.

Out of 61 food samples tested, 48 had some glyphosate in them. The most heavily contaminated were made with conventionally grown -- as opposed to organically grown -- oats.

The highest level detected, 1,300 parts per billion, was in a sample of Quaker Old Fashioned Oats. The lowest level, 10 parts per billion, came from a sample of Whole Foods conventional rolled oats scooped from a bulk bin.
https://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/news/20180815/roundup-chemical-in-your-cereal-what-to-know

Also in the news:
https://www.consumerreports.org/food-safety/heavy-metals-in-baby-food/
Heavy Metals in Baby Food: What You Need to Know
Consumer Reports’ testing shows concerning levels of arsenic, cadmium, and lead in many popular baby and toddler foods.
Our tests had some troubling findings:

• Every product had measurable levels of at least one of these heavy metals: cadmium, inorganic arsenic, or lead.

• About two-thirds (68 percent) had worrisome levels of at least one heavy metal.

• Fifteen of the foods would pose potential health risks to a child regularly eating just one serving or less per day.

• Snacks and products containing rice and/or sweet potatoes were particularly likely to have high levels of heavy metals.

• Organic foods were as likely to contain heavy metals as conventional foods.
Science is a thought process, technology will change reality.

SteveMDFP

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #155 on: August 16, 2018, 06:23:52 PM »
Roundup Chemical in Your Cereal

Thanks for this, Jack.  Without a clinical toxicologist at hand, it's hard to know how disturbing these reports really are.  At a sufficiently low dose (e.g., one molecule), any substance is harmless.  At a sufficiently high dose, any substance is lethal--even water and oxygen.

So "1,300 parts per billion" sounds alarming.  Maybe it is.  Certainly makes me think twice about Quaker Oats.  But maybe a far higher level is needed to affect human cells or gut bacteria. Dunno.  I'll try to look into it a bit.

jacksmith4tx

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #156 on: August 16, 2018, 06:54:49 PM »
I think Monsanto lost a court case on Roundup last week. The jury awarded the plaintiff over 280 million and there are hundreds of other law suits pending. Monsanto has appealed the verdict and I expect the case will be reversed with the help of EPA and USDA.

"Monsanto’s EPA-Manipulating Tactics Revealed in $289 Million Case"
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/monsanto-cancer-710902/
Quote
Internal documents produced in court indicated Monsanto had reason to believe glyphosate was dangerous as early as 1983, when a study conducted by the company discovered a statistically-significant increased risk of cancer in mice who were treated with glyphosate. The EPA was alarmed by the finding, but Monsanto dismissed the results, saying it wasn’t definitive because a single mouse who was not exposed to the pesticide also developed a tumor. The agency wanted the study replicated, but Monsanto refused. “They fought over that one mouse’s kidney for years, spent millions of dollars on experts, instead of just doing the test again,” Litzenburg says. “The EPA even offered a compromise — let’s just do a kidney and liver test. Monsanto said ‘no.’ It’s amazing how often they’re able to say no to the EPA.”

The reason the company was able to say ‘no’ to the agency ostensibly charged with regulating its products, says Nathan Donley, a senior scientist at the Center for Biological Diversity, is because the pesticide companies quite literally bankroll the EPA’s pesticide office. Under the Pesticide Registration Improvement Act, pesticide manufacturers are required to pay registration fees, and those fees amount to about a third of the office’s operating budget.

The system was originally conceived as a way to make sure the companies who profit from the products pay for the costs associated with regulating those products, rather than the taxpayers. But, in Donley’s view, the plan has backfired spectacularly. “If industry is paying for 30-to-40 percent of the operating cost — the salaries — of the pesticide office, who are they working for?”
Science is a thought process, technology will change reality.

jacksmith4tx

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #157 on: August 16, 2018, 07:15:29 PM »
On a related EPA issue:

"The Environmental Protection Agency is set to take a big step forward Thursday toward implementing a contentious “secret science” rule, a move that critics fear will undermine the scientific process in favor of cherry-picking research that supports specific outcomes.

The “Strengthening Transparency in Regulatory Science” rulemaking, as it is formally titled, would require EPA’s scientific studies to be independently verified through a peer-reviewed process outside the agency. It wouldn't address any one issue or regulation, but rather would undergird the science behind much of what the agency does.

The rule would help the industry contain the cost of new regulation by giving them the ability to question the basis of new pollution standards, especially if the “public is likely to bear the cost of compliance” with those regulations, according to the EPA."

That should get rid of a lot of nuance law suits and maybe even reverse the CO2 endangerment law if things go as planed.
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mostly_lurking

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #158 on: September 16, 2018, 10:14:51 AM »

sidd

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #159 on: October 09, 2018, 12:51:54 AM »
Elbein at the intercept on the brutality done to animals by large CAFO operations:

"They walked toward the sound, as one volunteer described it later, of thousands of cattle screaming."

“They pee, poop, eat, sleep in one small space.”

"clinging to the fur of the cattle, the feces caked on the floor, where it was kicked into aerosol by the nervous shuffling of thousands of calves."

" mass cannibalism in cage-free chicken houses that supplied Costco. They found turkeys packed together with open sores, in six inches of feces, in a California farm that Whole Foods had marked as the best of the best."

"1 in 5 calves suffers from diarrhea severe enough to require antibiotics, according to a dairy industry study, and when calves die — as about 7 percent do, on average — diarrhea is the cause of death half the time."

"they brought the calf, who they named Nick, to a veterinarian office, where he was diagnosed with pneumonia — the other major killer of calves — and given little chance of survival ... he had been taken away the day he was born ..."

"if a dairy farm raises a calf in tight confinement, butchers it, and sells the meat as veal — that’s illegal. But raise the same calf in the same conditions, butcher it the same way, and sell it as beef: That’s legal. And if the farm similarly confines that calf’s sister, who will join the dairy herd — that’s legal too."

“It’s very powerful to see these animals run for the first time ... they’ve been in a crate, never had the chance to run ... You see them staring at the sky, stare at something colorful, and you realize they’ve never seen it before. "

Read the whole thing, if you have the stomach.

https://theintercept.com/2018/10/08/california-prop-12-animal-welfare-dairy-calves/

Eat less meat and dairy. And make sure the cattle are humanely raised and killed as mercifully and painlessly as possible. There are very few things worse than hearing the cries of an animal whose slaughter is being botched.

sidd


Sigmetnow

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #160 on: October 20, 2018, 05:19:36 PM »
The long decline in American consumption of fluid milk, the dairy product that brings farmers the highest earnings, shows no sign of slowing.

America Is Drowning in Milk Nobody Wants
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-10-17/america-is-drowning-in-milk-nobody-wants
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #161 on: November 18, 2018, 06:41:32 PM »
Big Vegan Business

Bill Gates-Backed Vegan Burger Maker Beyond Meat Files for IPO
Quote
Beyond Meat Inc., the maker of vegan chicken and beef substitutes including the Beyond Burger, filed for a U.S. initial public offering.

The company filed with an initial offering size of $100 million, which is a placeholder that’s likely to change. The company’s backers include Microsoft Corp. co-founder Bill Gates and Don Thompson, McDonald’s Corp.’s former chief executive officer.

Beyond Meat, based in El Segundo, California, was founded in 2009 and initially focused on a frozen-chicken substitute and has taken advantage of vegan diet preferences to go more mainstream. Now, it’s best known for the Beyond Burger, which is made to “look, cook and taste like traditional ground beef,” according to the company’s filing Friday with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission.

Its products are sold by grocers such as Kroger and Whole Foods, as well as appearing on restaurant menus for TGI Friday’s and A&W Canada, the company said in its filing.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-17/bill-gates-backed-vegan-burger-maker-beyond-meat-files-for-ipo
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Archimid

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #162 on: November 25, 2018, 02:15:46 AM »
I've known for years of indoor farms, but this looks impressive. The video was very well made.



Sadly they didn't talk about energy consumption.  If it is going to work, energy consumption must be relatively low.  Looking at their lighting and plumbing it doesn't seem extremely energy intensive, but that's a lot of lights.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

wili

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #163 on: November 25, 2018, 02:20:48 AM »
And don't forget temperature control. I'm generally skeptical about claims of sustainability of indoor farming.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

TerryM

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #164 on: November 25, 2018, 03:03:55 AM »
Why would one not utilize the solar energy that a greenhouse harnesses so effectively?
Terry

P-maker

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #165 on: November 25, 2018, 06:55:10 AM »
Terry,

Recycling 99 % of your water is - as it says in the video - the main part of the trick. Actually, under some circumstances, it makes economicial sense to convert solar light through a PV-system to IR-heat,  if this is what your tomatoes need, and there is a market for it.

Cheers P


P-maker

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #166 on: November 25, 2018, 10:52:25 AM »
Had a second look at this company. Apparently - appart from all the local greenwash bullshit around Boston - they have also landed a 40 million USD contract delivering fresh produce to Emirates. A new vertical farm installment in Dubai will now deliver 3 tons a day to transcontinental flight passengers. Nice to know that it is "local produce", when you land in Auckland.

wili

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #167 on: November 25, 2018, 05:43:24 PM »
Nicely put!  ;D ;D ;D
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Sigmetnow

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #168 on: November 25, 2018, 06:40:53 PM »
Why would one not utilize the solar energy that a greenhouse harnesses so effectively?
Terry

Electric lights are needed because the top row of plants would shade everything beneath it.  Plant output is maximized by flooding each row with the spectrum of light those plants like best.  Using LEDs tuned to the specific frequencies that the plants beneath them use most helps make a warehouse highly efficient (generating growth around the clock?), as opposed to whatever sun the plants happen to get in a field or in a greenhouse.  Solar panels on the roof of the warehouse (plus batteries) can provide the power needed, 24 hours a day.
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zizek

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #169 on: November 25, 2018, 08:09:51 PM »
Why would one not utilize the solar energy that a greenhouse harnesses so effectively?
Terry

Electric lights are needed because the top row of plants would shade everything beneath it.  Plant output is maximized by flooding each row with the spectrum of light those plants like best.  Using LEDs tuned to the specific frequencies that the plants beneath them use most helps make a warehouse highly efficient (generating growth around the clock?), as opposed to whatever sun the plants happen to get in a field or in a greenhouse.  Solar panels on the roof of the warehouse (plus batteries) can provide the power needed, 24 hours a day.

What is highly efficient? Indoor garden is the least efficient method of farming.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3881955/
Quote
Extensive research has recently been conducted on plant factory with artificial light, which is one type of closed plant production system (CPPS) consisting of a thermally insulated and airtight structure, a multi-tier system with lighting devices, air conditioners and fans, a CO2 supply unit, a nutrient solution supply unit, and an environment control unit. One of the research outcomes is the concept of resource use efficiency (RUE) of CPPS.

This paper reviews the characteristics of the CPPS compared with those of the greenhouse, mainly from the viewpoint of RUE, which is defined as the ratio of the amount of the resource fixed or held in plants to the amount of the resource supplied to the CPPS.

It is shown that the use efficiencies of water, CO2 and light energy are considerably higher in the CPPS than those in the greenhouse. On the other hand, there is much more room for improving the light and electric energy use efficiencies of CPPS. Challenging issues for CPPS and RUE are also discussed.


TerryM

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #170 on: November 25, 2018, 11:13:21 PM »
I think it may depend on how "efficiency" is defined,


Is it based on:
How many sq. meters are required to produce 1 ton of produce?
How many man hours are required?
How much water is required?
How much nutrient needs to be added?
How many KWh are required?
How much infrastructure is needed?
... and probably hundreds of other criteria could be factored into an "efficiency" calculation.


Various methods will prove more efficient depending solely on our preferred definition.


I've seen stupendously huge greenhouses in Canada, and small vertical gardens in Havana that were each very efficient based on their needs. The Canadians faced high labor costs, but had few concerns related to the size of their footprint, or the availability of fresh water. In Cuba labor was cheap but transporting produce into the city was so expensive that a very small footprint within an urban area was preferred.


I've no doubt that the featured solution will work well in some circumstances, but given a choice I think I'd prefer some of Bruce's more "natural" produce. :)


Terry

zizek

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #171 on: November 25, 2018, 11:41:45 PM »
I live in a harsh area that's fairly remote. winter means we lack fresh produce. A hydroponics company has successfully provided some much needed quality produce throughout the year.
It's great to have leafy greens. But when you talk about sustenance and efficiency, I can only imagine that flash frozen broccoli grown in warmer climates is still far more efficient. But that's not really the point. I don't want to be eating rice and frozen vegetables all the time. So that's where indoor gardens shine. it's good to have quality healthy options available. But on a per calorie and nutritional basis it will never replace conventionally grown staples, but it doesn't really have to.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #172 on: November 26, 2018, 09:28:45 PM »
Our traditional view that “natural is better” may need updating. 

A huge recall of romaine lettuce is underway in the U.S. after many have been sickened across the country.
Outbreak of E. coli Infections Linked to Romaine Lettuce
Quote
CDC is advising that U.S. consumers not eat any romaine lettuce, and retailers and restaurants not serve or sell any, until we learn more about the outbreak. This investigation is ongoing and the advice will be updated as more information is available.

Consumers who have any type of romaine lettuce in their home should not eat it and should throw it away, even if some of it was eaten and no one has gotten sick.
- This advice includes all types or uses of romaine lettuce, such as whole heads of romaine, hearts of romaine, and bags and boxes of precut lettuce and salad mixes that contain romaine, including baby romaine, spring mix, and Caesar salad.
- If you do not know if the lettuce is romaine or whether a salad mix contains romaine, do not eat it and throw it away.
- Wash and sanitize drawers or shelves in refrigerators where romaine was stored. Follow these five steps to clean your refrigerator.
- Restaurants and retailers should not serve or sell any romaine lettuce, including salads and salad mixes containing romaine. ...
https://www.cdc.gov/ecoli/2018/o157h7-11-18/index.html

The Science Is Clear: Dirty Farm Water Is Making Us Sick
https://www.wired.com/story/the-science-is-clear-dirty-farm-water-is-making-us-sick/
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wili

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #173 on: November 27, 2018, 03:56:23 AM »
?? That's not a matter of natural versus unnatural. Either can kill us. Really bad farm and food handling practices can certainly kill us, just as really poorly made synthetic food could kill us.

"Natural" is, in any case, a word that has little meaning beyond a marketing gimmick. It has no legal definition, as far as I'm aware, unlike 'organic' or 'non-GMO'...

But maybe I'm missing your point here somehow?
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

wili

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #174 on: November 27, 2018, 04:06:13 AM »
Here's some historic and geographic perspective on veganism, that underlines a point I try to make frequently: for most of (post ag-revolution) history, most people have been mostly vegan most of the time. Also, note: We don't need pure veganism to greatly reduce the carbon footprint of foods, and to greatly reduce many other harms of meat and dairy consumption.

This is an article that includes a chart of the history of percapita meat consumption in all the countries of the world over the last ~60 years. What it shows is that, in the most highly populated countries, meat consumption was only about a pound a month/kg every six weeks...basically what most of us would consider a vegan diet for someone who 'falls off the wagon occasionally.'

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/datablog/2009/sep/02/meat-consumption-per-capita-climate-change

Look at many of the most populated countries--China, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, North and South Korea, Japan...all had vanishingly low meat consumption as recently as the 1960's, which pretty much reflects their long-term traditional diet. And the East Asians in particular eat basically no dairy (and even South Asians eat very little, except for the quite rich).

These countries, added together with the many other countries around the world who so nearly as low rates of meat eating, represent the vast majority of the human population over the vast majority of the history of the last 10,000 years or so. And they are essentially vegans.

A (nearly) vegan diet is not some bizarre aberration. It is the overwhelming norm in most cultures most of the time.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/datablog/2009/sep/02/meat-consumption-per-capita-climate-change
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Sigmetnow

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #175 on: November 27, 2018, 02:43:24 PM »
?? That's not a matter of natural versus unnatural. Either can kill us. Really bad farm and food handling practices can certainly kill us, just as really poorly made synthetic food could kill us.

"Natural" is, in any case, a word that has little meaning beyond a marketing gimmick. It has no legal definition, as far as I'm aware, unlike 'organic' or 'non-GMO'...

But maybe I'm missing your point here somehow?

No, you are exactly right.  My point was we should not dismiss “warehouse farms” simply because they are not the farming method we are accustomed to.  There are benefits to growing food indoors, near cities, in controlled environments.  And risks to the time-honored farming methods.  Neither method is perfect, neither method is the ultimate answer.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #176 on: November 27, 2018, 03:17:52 PM »
Had a second look at this company. Apparently - appart from all the local greenwash bullshit around Boston - they have also landed a 40 million USD contract delivering fresh produce to Emirates. A new vertical farm installment in Dubai will now deliver 3 tons a day to transcontinental flight passengers. Nice to know that it is "local produce", when you land in Auckland.

Local food production greatly reduces transport costs and emissions, and food spoilage enroute, making it superior to sourcing the same produce from fields or greenhouses miles away from Dubai.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.