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El Cid

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #200 on: August 15, 2019, 02:06:58 PM »
nanning,

Most of what is labeled "organic" is truly not much better than big ag. The only solution i see is direct marketing to consumers by dedicated (local) farmers, where the customers visit the farm, see the practices and buy the products without an intermediary. Some regenerative ag practitioners do this with success. this is the model we need to follow, not just putting "organic" labels on products without knowing what it means.

El Cid

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #201 on: August 15, 2019, 02:09:13 PM »
Besides, if you decide to become vegan, or give up meat (at least partially) the best thing one can do is trying to grow some food. Even 10 or 20 sq m (raised beds with compost, 2-3 crops per year, or even some coldframes) goes a very long way. You can grow 5-10 kgs of food on 1 sq m in a year!

TerryM

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #202 on: August 15, 2019, 03:32:30 PM »
Locally we've a farmers market beside city hall that's been a going concern for over 150 years. The property and building are owned by the city and stalls are rented to local farmers at cost. It's an asset to the city and a lifeline to the farmers.


My favorite vendor is a pig farmer who allows the pigs to live as family units in their own sheds until the big day comes - but that big day comes for everyone and everything.
He has tours through his facilities, makes wonderful sausages of many varieties (including mennonite "summer sausage" that requires no refrigeration, but my own favorites are his smoked pork chops. Pure delight. - Sorry vegans, but I love pork!


There is another even larger farmers market a dozen miles away that specializes in all things Mennonite, with a few Amish offerings scattered about.
Every community with farms close at hand needs to offer something similar. Parking lots are often left vacant on the weekends, and the vendors fees take care of setup and cleanup.


Perhaps to survive most farmers need a railhead to access big city markets, but these localized venues do make money for those who participate, they save on transportation GHGs and build a sense of community between the city folk and the farmers that feed them.


/commercial message]


Terry

Bruce Steele

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #203 on: August 15, 2019, 04:12:01 PM »
There is a problem with pesticide drift , even organic pesticides, and the new Cannibus crops that are checked for zero pesticide or fungicide content. There have been lawsuits and the professional crop sprayers are refusing to spay because it isn't worth getting sued. I know one grape grower that got sued last year for drift, grape growers spray for mildew issues, and because she couldn't spay this year she lost an entire Chardonnay crop. Another friend can't spray her avocados and expects about 50K in losses. Even if the crop growers follow rules for drift it appears that there is something called waft that can move pesticides around after spraying.
 Cannibus crops are worth from $500,000 to $5,000,000 an acre so they are severely affected when their crop get rejected due to pesticide content. The other growers need to use existing pest and mildew protections or lose their crops. They are spitting mad. If everyone had to comply with the "zero pesticide" rules for Cannibus and required testing for each crop produced most all crops, even the organic ones would never get sold.
 My property is directly downwind from ~ 100 acres of permitted Cannibus, within a mile . The authorities are starting to reject Cannibus cultivation so the other growers can keep spraying. I would prefer to put up with the smell of weed rather than the usual pesticide drift that I got before the land upwind got sold to the Cannibus growers.

https://www.independent.com/2019/05/09/avocado-and-cannabis-growers-struggle-over-insecticides-2/

nanning

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #204 on: August 18, 2019, 08:03:34 AM »
Thank you for that very interesting post Bruce.

nanning,

Most of what is labeled "organic" is truly not much better than big ag.
<snip>

In the Netherlands we have a strictly controlled certification system SKAL under the umbrella of the EU:
https://ec.europa.eu/info/food-farming-fisheries/farming/organic-farming/becoming-organic-farmer#certification

You are describing the situation in North-America I think. The world is larger ;).

And of course Bruce is correct with the inescapable 'collateral damage', meaning that nowhere it is perfect.
Especially for animal farming, organic makes a whole lot of difference. Especially for pigs. I love pigs. i stopped eating pork in the 90s and only when organic pork became available in the supermarket did I start eating pork again. <40g/day on avg.
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blumenkraft

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #205 on: August 18, 2019, 03:38:00 PM »
Bruce, what are you doing "cannibus" for.

Don't want to wake up three-letter agencies?
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Bruce Steele

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #206 on: August 18, 2019, 05:59:00 PM »
blumenkraft,  I follow local politics , ag or fishing issues . Cannibus has been legalized in California and although the Feds don't approve they did legalize hemp . Cannibus is still expensive and making a million dollars an acre compared to something like $1,000 acre for vegetables means the temptation to switch crops has resulted in 1500 acres of good bottomland applying for permits to grow weed just in Santa Barbara county.
 Personal cultivation allows for six plants, no licenses required. Oregon, Colorado and Calif. now have billion + dollar  Cannibus industries and lots of homegrown .
 Although it would have doubled my property value and made me wealthy I did not get a permit. I
am still struggling with my choice but considering the state of climate affairs and the dearth of farmers trying to farm like the future mattered I thought I should stick with my efforts at low carbon farming.
 I will let you quess about whether I have a few ten foot monsters growing in a personal grow. i think the lessons of my youth about who to trust, when to keep your mouth shut, what not to say on the net or over a phone, what to avoid in google searches ,  how to not leave trails when hiking the backcountry, not carry an I-phone , or drive anything with a gps tracker or my general distrust of authority have served me well . Those lessons may be lost on the generations that think pot is legal but I think they may be the most important lessons of a youth lived in the sixties and seventies. Keep a tight group of friends that also know the rules.
 As technology improves infrared tracking, spy drones, night vision, AI learning about each and every one of us and our likely foibles , what we buy and where we shop, who we know and what we say are all tools to be used against us. Some day it might be necessary to run from this thing our government has created . There are people in some parts of the world running and hiding today and we have killer drones tracking them. Those people could show us some evasion techniques that us hippies never considered. We may have to learn those lessons on our own someday.
 




TerryM

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #207 on: August 18, 2019, 07:07:33 PM »
^^
Just because you know you're paranoid doesn't mean they ain't after you. 8)


I see possibilities for a new concept in California Smoked Pork. ;D
Terry

Bruce Steele

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #208 on: August 18, 2019, 08:13:21 PM »
CBD bacon?

SteveMDFP

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #209 on: August 18, 2019, 08:30:14 PM »
CBD bacon?

Cannabis-infused pork jerky strikes me as a potential innovative market.  Shelf-stable, portable, and some consumers probably prefer a savory edible over a sweet one. 

Given the short local distance there between some pigs and some growers, it might be a relatively low-carbon activity.  Wood smoking releases CO2, but it's at least considered unimportant, as it's not using fossil fuels.

TerryM

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #210 on: August 18, 2019, 10:23:48 PM »
CBD bacon?
Porcine Pot, or Cannabis Cutlets


Alliteration is the friend of the literate.
Terry

TerryM

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #211 on: August 18, 2019, 10:27:47 PM »
CBD bacon?

Cannabis-infused pork jerky strikes me as a potential innovative market.  Shelf-stable, portable, and some consumers probably prefer a savory edible over a sweet one. 

Given the short local distance there between some pigs and some growers, it might be a relatively low-carbon activity.  Wood smoking releases CO2, but it's at least considered unimportant, as it's not using fossil fuels.
While Cannabis smoking releases inhibitions.


Terry

vox_mundi

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #212 on: August 27, 2019, 07:15:35 PM »
This may come in handy in the future ...

Clinical Trial Shows Alternate-Day Fasting a Safe Alternative to Caloric Restriction
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2019-08-clinical-trial-alternate-day-fasting-safe.html

In recent years there has been a surge in studies looking at the biologic effects of different kinds of fasting diets in both animal models and humans. These diets include continuous calorie restriction, intermittent fasting, and alternate-day fasting (ADF). Now the largest study of its kind to look at the effects of strict ADF in healthy people has shown a number of health benefits. The participants alternated 36 hours of zero-calorie intake with 12 hours of unlimited eating. The findings are reported August 27 in the journal Cell Metabolism.

... "We found that on average, during the 12 hours when they could eat normally, the participants in the ADF group compensated for some of the calories lost from the fasting, but not all," says Harald Sourij, a professor at the Medical University of Graz. "Overall, they reached a mean calorie restriction of about 35% and lost an average of 3.5 kg [7.7 lb] during four weeks of ADF."

The investigators found several biological effects in the ADF group:

- The participants had fluctuating downregulation of amino acids, in particular the amino acid methionine. Amino acid restriction has been shown to cause lifespan extension in rodents.

- They had continuous upregulation of ketone bodies, even on nonfasting days. This has been shown to promote health in various contexts.

- They had reduced levels of sICAM-1, a marker linked to age-associated disease and inflammation.

- They had lowered levels of triiodothyronine without impaired thyroid gland function. Previously, lowered levels of this hormone have been linked to longevity in humans.

- They had lowered levels of cholesterol.

- They had a reduction of lipotoxic android trunk fat mass—commonly known as belly fat.

"The elegant thing about strict ADF is that it doesn't require participants to count their meals and calories: they just don't eat anything for one day."



... "Why exactly calorie restriction and fasting induce so many beneficial effects is not fully clear yet," ... "The reason might be due to evolutionary biology," Madeo explains. "Our physiology is familiar with periods of starvation followed by food excesses. It might also be that continuous low-calorie intake hinders the induction of the age-protective autophagy program, which is switched on during fasting breaks."

Open Access: Cell Metabolism, Stekovic, Hofer, and Tripolt et al.: "Alternate day fasting improves physiological and molecular markers of aging in healthy, non-obese humans."
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El Cid

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #213 on: August 27, 2019, 08:32:48 PM »
Fasting is an ancient way to cleaning the body and the mind. It does have wonderful effects on both (first hand experience) but I think ADF is more harmful than useful because it does not keep the no1 rule of fasting.
 
The first and foremost rule of fasting is that after the fast you need to return to eating very slowly, in small quantities and if possible with raw fruits / vegetables/vegetable juices at first. Otherwise, very serious health problems could arise (if your fast is more than 5-7 days and you do not keep these rules, you can die!!!).

After a 1 day (36 hr) fast it is not such a big problem, but eating as much as you want even after not eating just for a day is not good for you.

I suggest fasting a full day (36hrs) once a week/month/quarter and eating only raw fruits/freshly pressed veg juices during the next morning until noon and then having a light lunch that keeps you satisfied but not totally full. One of the effects of fasting is that you will not need as much food as before if you return to eating gradually but you can screw it all up by eating all sorts of foods in bigger quantities right after the fast. You will need restraint until the dinner of your first day after the fast (as long as the fast was not longer than 3-4 days), after that you are free to go, and your body will have readapted to eating again.

the best book on fasting is (by far):

The miracle of fasting by Paul Bragg

Sigmetnow

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #214 on: August 28, 2019, 01:54:43 AM »
Quote
Leilani Münter (@LeilaniMunter) 8/27/19, 2:53 PM
Wow this was the line for vegan @BeyondMeat chicken at a @kfc outside Atlanta today! They even painted the building green!
https://twitter.com/leilanimunter/status/1166423500183281665
At the link:  15-second video of a crowd of people lined up (?sort of) in the parking lot outside the KFC.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

TerryM

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #215 on: August 28, 2019, 03:31:45 AM »
Quote
Leilani Münter (@LeilaniMunter) 8/27/19, 2:53 PM
Wow this was the line for vegan @BeyondMeat chicken at a @kfc outside Atlanta today! They even painted the building green!
https://twitter.com/leilanimunter/status/1166423500183281665
At the link:  15-second video of a crowd of people lined up (?sort of) in the parking lot outside the KFC.
I might even turn a little green myself. ::)
Terry

nanning

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #216 on: August 28, 2019, 07:52:13 AM »
<snip>
"The reason might be due to evolutionary biology," Madeo explains. "Our physiology is familiar with periods of starvation followed by food excesses.

<snip>
"The first and foremost rule of fasting is that after the fast you need to return to eating very slowly, in small quantities and if possible with raw fruits / vegetables/vegetable juices at first. Otherwise, very serious health problems could aris"


El Cid,
In evolutionary biological context: In effect you are saying that when ancient humans found excess food after having had no food for a while, they would start with eating little bits of the food. Gradually eating a bit more.
I think that is very implausible.

Anecdotal: I have fasted many times and have never experienced anything bad after immediately returning to my normal eating habits.


A secondary big advantage of fasting is the practice of restraint.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
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El Cid

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #217 on: August 28, 2019, 08:07:53 AM »
nanning, i am not talking about any "evolutionary biological context". I am talking about personal experience and the experience of many other people who tried fasting. If you had tried fasting (= eating nothing other than water) any longer than 3-4 days and then you started eating a big meal you would have big problems. After longer fasts (1-2-3 weeks) you could die. That is a fact.

What you are talking about, people/our ancestors in the past not eating for a few days and then eating a lot, does not happen. Look at apes: their food is mostly/almost exclusively vegan (bonobos 95%, orangutan, gorilla 99%, chimpanzee 80-90%) so it never happens that they do not eat for days. There is always something to eat: some leaves, fruits, etc. Same for hunter gatherers: if they had no meat, they ate leaves/roots/grass/berries. There never has been a complete fast, only lowered caloric intake. That is why they could restart eating bigger quantities without problems: their digestive system never "turned off" completely.
I have multidecade experience with fasting myself, and helping others do it. Fasting is an artifical yet great thing for us but you have to keep the rules.

vox_mundi

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #218 on: September 05, 2019, 05:27:56 PM »
Tyson Foods Invests in Plant-Based Shrimp Company
https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2019/09/05/tyson-foods-invests-in-plant-based-shrimp-company.html

- After selling its stake in Beyond Meat in the spring, Tyson Foods' next bet is on plant-based shellfish.
- Its venture capital arm is making the investment in New Wave Foods.
- The start-up makes plant-based shrimp from seaweed, soy protein and natural flavors.

While there are a number of companies tackling plant-based fish like salmon or tuna alternatives, New Wave is one of the few trying to sell crustacean substitutes.

After shrimp, New Wave is planning to tackle crab and lobster. Shrimp is the most consumed seafood in the world, according to co-founder and Chief Technology Officer Michelle Wolf.

... The company plans to target food service first, in part because 80% of shrimp consumption in the U.S. happens outside the home.

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Sigmetnow

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #219 on: September 26, 2019, 10:01:50 PM »
I think this prediction may be wrong. We’ll see. The times, they are a-changing.

McDonald's Is Testing a Plant-Based Burger. It's Going to Fail.
Quote
McDonald's isn't for the health-conscious

McDonald's would love for its test of what it's calling the "the P.L.T." (for plant, lettuce, and tomato) to succeed. The chain will test the new sandwich for 12 weeks in 28 restaurants in southwestern Ontario, starting Sept. 30, according to a press release. That's a small test in a pretty obscure market. The company is doing that because it has decades of experience where consumers ignore healthier options on its menu. And while it wants this to work, it knows it probably won’t.

People who visit fast-food chains generally want a full-on fast food experience. They're not looking for healthy options, because they already view the meal as an indulgence or an earned cheat. That's why various efforts to offer more healthy products have generally not been successful. ...
https://www.fool.com/investing/2019/09/26/mcdonalds-testing-plant-based-burger-going-fail.aspx
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #220 on: September 27, 2019, 02:38:25 AM »
 ;D
Quote
Ramp Capital (@RampCapitalLLC) 9/26/19, 8:07 AM
I’m offended
https://twitter.com/rampcapitalllc/status/1177193040093601792
Image below.  Fun comments at the link.
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vox_mundi

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #221 on: October 01, 2019, 06:11:43 PM »
Raw vs. Cooked Diets Have Distinct Effects on Both Mouse and Human Gut Microbiomes
https://phys.org/news/2019-09-raw-cooked-diets-distinct-effects.html



Scientists at UC San Francisco and Harvard University have shown for the first time that cooking food fundamentally alters the microbiomes of both mice and humans, a finding with implications both for optimizing our microbial health and for understanding how cooking may have altered the evolution of the our microbiomes during human prehistory.

In recent years, scientists have discovered that many facets of human health—ranging from chronic inflammation to weight gain—are strongly influenced by the ecological health of the vast numbers of microbes that live in and on us, collectively known as our microbiome.

... The researchers examined the impact of cooking on the microbiomes of mice by feeding diets of raw meat, cooked meat, raw sweet potatoes, or cooked sweet potatoes to groups of animals—selected because prior data demonstrated that cooking alters the nutrients and other bioactive compounds in both meat and tubers.

To the researchers' surprise, raw versus cooked meat had no discernible effect on the animals' gut microbes. In contrast, raw and cooked sweet potatoes significantly altered the composition of the animals' microbiomes, as well as microbes' patterns of gene activity and the biologically crucial metabolic products they produced. The researchers confirmed their findings using a more diverse array of vegetables, performing what Turnbaugh called a "mad scientist experiment"—feeding the mice an assortment of raw and cooked sweet potato, white potato, corn, peas, carrots, and beets.

The group attributed the microbial changes they saw to two key factors: cooked food allows the host to soak up more calories in the small intestine, leaving less for hungry microbes further down the gut; on the other hand, many raw foods contain potent antimicrobial compounds that appear to directly damage certain microbes.

"We were surprised to see that the differences were not only due to changing carbohydrate metabolism but also may be driven by the chemicals found in plants," Turnbaugh said. "To me, this really highlights the importance of considering the other components of our diet and how they impact gut bacteria.

R. Carmody, et.al., Cooking shapes the structure and function of the gut microbiome[/b]]Cooking shapes the structure and function of the gut microbiome, Nature Microbiology (2019).
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

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nanning

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #222 on: October 02, 2019, 06:58:31 AM »
^^
Thanks for that vox!
(The link doesn't work) https://www.nature.com/articles/s41564-019-0569-4

personal:
This is very interesting to me. I had understood from evolutionary biology that our digestion evolved for cooked food, but this research has much improved my understanding.
I never liked salads and raw vegetables and thought they were less healthy and now I know why. I use steam to cook plants. It saves water and nutrients.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
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El Cid

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #223 on: October 02, 2019, 07:46:51 AM »
I had understood from evolutionary biology that our digestion evolved for cooked food, but this research has much improved my understanding.

Humanity ate raw food for hundreds of thousands of years, cooked food is a relative novelty in evolutionary terms. It is obvious to me that human digestion works best when given much raw food (fruits and vegetables), it is also my experience.

As for "evolutionary biology":
Our closest relatives are the gorilla, orangutan, chimpanzee/bonobo. Other than the chimpanzee they consume almost 100% raw fruits and vegetables (leaves mostly) and some nuts, and even the chimpanzee is 80-90% "raw vegan" (they sometimes hunt for other smaller monkeys and eat them raw). Bonobos are raw fruit eaters and are probably the closest to us.
The only "prey" you can catch with your hands and eat without any preparation is fruits. Go figure

El Cid

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #224 on: October 02, 2019, 07:48:03 AM »
...with all that said, I also think that humanity's digestion changed during the past cca 100-200k yrs, using cooked food, so some cooked food is needed, but much less than people presume...

TerryM

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #225 on: October 02, 2019, 08:07:00 AM »
...with all that said, I also think that humanity's digestion changed during the past cca 100-200k yrs, using cooked food, so some cooked food is needed, but much less than people presume...
Explain that to an Inuit. :)
Terry

El Cid

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #226 on: October 02, 2019, 10:11:58 AM »
very clever Terry
now compare the number of inuits to people living in the tropical and subtropical zones

TerryM

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #227 on: October 02, 2019, 10:32:06 AM »
very clever Terry
now compare the number of inuits to people living in the tropical and subtropical zones
Is that what happens when people eat only raw food? ;D
Terry

nanning

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #228 on: October 02, 2019, 10:40:11 AM »
<snip>
As for "evolutionary biology":

Maybe you've missed this from vox's post:
"cooked food allows the host to soak up more calories in the small intestine, leaving less for hungry microbes further down the gut"


I advise you to read a good book on the subject.
I've learned a lot from this one:

The Story of the Human Body: Evolution, Health, and Disease   by   Daniel E. Lieberman
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome