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El Cid

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #200 on: August 15, 2019, 02:06:58 PM »
nanning,

Most of what is labeled "organic" is truly not much better than big ag. The only solution i see is direct marketing to consumers by dedicated (local) farmers, where the customers visit the farm, see the practices and buy the products without an intermediary. Some regenerative ag practitioners do this with success. this is the model we need to follow, not just putting "organic" labels on products without knowing what it means.

El Cid

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #201 on: August 15, 2019, 02:09:13 PM »
Besides, if you decide to become vegan, or give up meat (at least partially) the best thing one can do is trying to grow some food. Even 10 or 20 sq m (raised beds with compost, 2-3 crops per year, or even some coldframes) goes a very long way. You can grow 5-10 kgs of food on 1 sq m in a year!

TerryM

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #202 on: August 15, 2019, 03:32:30 PM »
Locally we've a farmers market beside city hall that's been a going concern for over 150 years. The property and building are owned by the city and stalls are rented to local farmers at cost. It's an asset to the city and a lifeline to the farmers.


My favorite vendor is a pig farmer who allows the pigs to live as family units in their own sheds until the big day comes - but that big day comes for everyone and everything.
He has tours through his facilities, makes wonderful sausages of many varieties (including mennonite "summer sausage" that requires no refrigeration, but my own favorites are his smoked pork chops. Pure delight. - Sorry vegans, but I love pork!


There is another even larger farmers market a dozen miles away that specializes in all things Mennonite, with a few Amish offerings scattered about.
Every community with farms close at hand needs to offer something similar. Parking lots are often left vacant on the weekends, and the vendors fees take care of setup and cleanup.


Perhaps to survive most farmers need a railhead to access big city markets, but these localized venues do make money for those who participate, they save on transportation GHGs and build a sense of community between the city folk and the farmers that feed them.


/commercial message]


Terry

Bruce Steele

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #203 on: August 15, 2019, 04:12:01 PM »
There is a problem with pesticide drift , even organic pesticides, and the new Cannibus crops that are checked for zero pesticide or fungicide content. There have been lawsuits and the professional crop sprayers are refusing to spay because it isn't worth getting sued. I know one grape grower that got sued last year for drift, grape growers spray for mildew issues, and because she couldn't spay this year she lost an entire Chardonnay crop. Another friend can't spray her avocados and expects about 50K in losses. Even if the crop growers follow rules for drift it appears that there is something called waft that can move pesticides around after spraying.
 Cannibus crops are worth from $500,000 to $5,000,000 an acre so they are severely affected when their crop get rejected due to pesticide content. The other growers need to use existing pest and mildew protections or lose their crops. They are spitting mad. If everyone had to comply with the "zero pesticide" rules for Cannibus and required testing for each crop produced most all crops, even the organic ones would never get sold.
 My property is directly downwind from ~ 100 acres of permitted Cannibus, within a mile . The authorities are starting to reject Cannibus cultivation so the other growers can keep spraying. I would prefer to put up with the smell of weed rather than the usual pesticide drift that I got before the land upwind got sold to the Cannibus growers.

https://www.independent.com/2019/05/09/avocado-and-cannabis-growers-struggle-over-insecticides-2/

nanning

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #204 on: August 18, 2019, 08:03:34 AM »
Thank you for that very interesting post Bruce.

nanning,

Most of what is labeled "organic" is truly not much better than big ag.
<snip>

In the Netherlands we have a strictly controlled certification system SKAL under the umbrella of the EU:
https://ec.europa.eu/info/food-farming-fisheries/farming/organic-farming/becoming-organic-farmer#certification

You are describing the situation in North-America I think. The world is larger ;).

And of course Bruce is correct with the inescapable 'collateral damage', meaning that nowhere it is perfect.
Especially for animal farming, organic makes a whole lot of difference. Especially for pigs. I love pigs. i stopped eating pork in the 90s and only when organic pork became available in the supermarket did I start eating pork again. <40g/day on avg.
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blumenkraft

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #205 on: August 18, 2019, 03:38:00 PM »
Bruce, what are you doing "cannibus" for.

Don't want to wake up three-letter agencies?
Everyone who can must self-isolate.

Bruce Steele

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #206 on: August 18, 2019, 05:59:00 PM »
blumenkraft,  I follow local politics , ag or fishing issues . Cannibus has been legalized in California and although the Feds don't approve they did legalize hemp . Cannibus is still expensive and making a million dollars an acre compared to something like $1,000 acre for vegetables means the temptation to switch crops has resulted in 1500 acres of good bottomland applying for permits to grow weed just in Santa Barbara county.
 Personal cultivation allows for six plants, no licenses required. Oregon, Colorado and Calif. now have billion + dollar  Cannibus industries and lots of homegrown .
 Although it would have doubled my property value and made me wealthy I did not get a permit. I
am still struggling with my choice but considering the state of climate affairs and the dearth of farmers trying to farm like the future mattered I thought I should stick with my efforts at low carbon farming.
 I will let you quess about whether I have a few ten foot monsters growing in a personal grow. i think the lessons of my youth about who to trust, when to keep your mouth shut, what not to say on the net or over a phone, what to avoid in google searches ,  how to not leave trails when hiking the backcountry, not carry an I-phone , or drive anything with a gps tracker or my general distrust of authority have served me well . Those lessons may be lost on the generations that think pot is legal but I think they may be the most important lessons of a youth lived in the sixties and seventies. Keep a tight group of friends that also know the rules.
 As technology improves infrared tracking, spy drones, night vision, AI learning about each and every one of us and our likely foibles , what we buy and where we shop, who we know and what we say are all tools to be used against us. Some day it might be necessary to run from this thing our government has created . There are people in some parts of the world running and hiding today and we have killer drones tracking them. Those people could show us some evasion techniques that us hippies never considered. We may have to learn those lessons on our own someday.
 




TerryM

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #207 on: August 18, 2019, 07:07:33 PM »
^^
Just because you know you're paranoid doesn't mean they ain't after you. 8)


I see possibilities for a new concept in California Smoked Pork. ;D
Terry

Bruce Steele

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #208 on: August 18, 2019, 08:13:21 PM »
CBD bacon?

SteveMDFP

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #209 on: August 18, 2019, 08:30:14 PM »
CBD bacon?

Cannabis-infused pork jerky strikes me as a potential innovative market.  Shelf-stable, portable, and some consumers probably prefer a savory edible over a sweet one. 

Given the short local distance there between some pigs and some growers, it might be a relatively low-carbon activity.  Wood smoking releases CO2, but it's at least considered unimportant, as it's not using fossil fuels.

TerryM

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #210 on: August 18, 2019, 10:23:48 PM »
CBD bacon?
Porcine Pot, or Cannabis Cutlets


Alliteration is the friend of the literate.
Terry

TerryM

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #211 on: August 18, 2019, 10:27:47 PM »
CBD bacon?

Cannabis-infused pork jerky strikes me as a potential innovative market.  Shelf-stable, portable, and some consumers probably prefer a savory edible over a sweet one. 

Given the short local distance there between some pigs and some growers, it might be a relatively low-carbon activity.  Wood smoking releases CO2, but it's at least considered unimportant, as it's not using fossil fuels.
While Cannabis smoking releases inhibitions.


Terry

vox_mundi

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #212 on: August 27, 2019, 07:15:35 PM »
This may come in handy in the future ...

Clinical Trial Shows Alternate-Day Fasting a Safe Alternative to Caloric Restriction
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2019-08-clinical-trial-alternate-day-fasting-safe.html

In recent years there has been a surge in studies looking at the biologic effects of different kinds of fasting diets in both animal models and humans. These diets include continuous calorie restriction, intermittent fasting, and alternate-day fasting (ADF). Now the largest study of its kind to look at the effects of strict ADF in healthy people has shown a number of health benefits. The participants alternated 36 hours of zero-calorie intake with 12 hours of unlimited eating. The findings are reported August 27 in the journal Cell Metabolism.

... "We found that on average, during the 12 hours when they could eat normally, the participants in the ADF group compensated for some of the calories lost from the fasting, but not all," says Harald Sourij, a professor at the Medical University of Graz. "Overall, they reached a mean calorie restriction of about 35% and lost an average of 3.5 kg [7.7 lb] during four weeks of ADF."

The investigators found several biological effects in the ADF group:

- The participants had fluctuating downregulation of amino acids, in particular the amino acid methionine. Amino acid restriction has been shown to cause lifespan extension in rodents.

- They had continuous upregulation of ketone bodies, even on nonfasting days. This has been shown to promote health in various contexts.

- They had reduced levels of sICAM-1, a marker linked to age-associated disease and inflammation.

- They had lowered levels of triiodothyronine without impaired thyroid gland function. Previously, lowered levels of this hormone have been linked to longevity in humans.

- They had lowered levels of cholesterol.

- They had a reduction of lipotoxic android trunk fat mass—commonly known as belly fat.

"The elegant thing about strict ADF is that it doesn't require participants to count their meals and calories: they just don't eat anything for one day."



... "Why exactly calorie restriction and fasting induce so many beneficial effects is not fully clear yet," ... "The reason might be due to evolutionary biology," Madeo explains. "Our physiology is familiar with periods of starvation followed by food excesses. It might also be that continuous low-calorie intake hinders the induction of the age-protective autophagy program, which is switched on during fasting breaks."

Open Access: Cell Metabolism, Stekovic, Hofer, and Tripolt et al.: "Alternate day fasting improves physiological and molecular markers of aging in healthy, non-obese humans."
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El Cid

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #213 on: August 27, 2019, 08:32:48 PM »
Fasting is an ancient way to cleaning the body and the mind. It does have wonderful effects on both (first hand experience) but I think ADF is more harmful than useful because it does not keep the no1 rule of fasting.
 
The first and foremost rule of fasting is that after the fast you need to return to eating very slowly, in small quantities and if possible with raw fruits / vegetables/vegetable juices at first. Otherwise, very serious health problems could arise (if your fast is more than 5-7 days and you do not keep these rules, you can die!!!).

After a 1 day (36 hr) fast it is not such a big problem, but eating as much as you want even after not eating just for a day is not good for you.

I suggest fasting a full day (36hrs) once a week/month/quarter and eating only raw fruits/freshly pressed veg juices during the next morning until noon and then having a light lunch that keeps you satisfied but not totally full. One of the effects of fasting is that you will not need as much food as before if you return to eating gradually but you can screw it all up by eating all sorts of foods in bigger quantities right after the fast. You will need restraint until the dinner of your first day after the fast (as long as the fast was not longer than 3-4 days), after that you are free to go, and your body will have readapted to eating again.

the best book on fasting is (by far):

The miracle of fasting by Paul Bragg

Sigmetnow

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #214 on: August 28, 2019, 01:54:43 AM »
Quote
Leilani Münter (@LeilaniMunter) 8/27/19, 2:53 PM
Wow this was the line for vegan @BeyondMeat chicken at a @kfc outside Atlanta today! They even painted the building green!
https://twitter.com/leilanimunter/status/1166423500183281665
At the link:  15-second video of a crowd of people lined up (?sort of) in the parking lot outside the KFC.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

TerryM

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #215 on: August 28, 2019, 03:31:45 AM »
Quote
Leilani Münter (@LeilaniMunter) 8/27/19, 2:53 PM
Wow this was the line for vegan @BeyondMeat chicken at a @kfc outside Atlanta today! They even painted the building green!
https://twitter.com/leilanimunter/status/1166423500183281665
At the link:  15-second video of a crowd of people lined up (?sort of) in the parking lot outside the KFC.
I might even turn a little green myself. ::)
Terry

nanning

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #216 on: August 28, 2019, 07:52:13 AM »
<snip>
"The reason might be due to evolutionary biology," Madeo explains. "Our physiology is familiar with periods of starvation followed by food excesses.

<snip>
"The first and foremost rule of fasting is that after the fast you need to return to eating very slowly, in small quantities and if possible with raw fruits / vegetables/vegetable juices at first. Otherwise, very serious health problems could aris"


El Cid,
In evolutionary biological context: In effect you are saying that when ancient humans found excess food after having had no food for a while, they would start with eating little bits of the food. Gradually eating a bit more.
I think that is very implausible.

Anecdotal: I have fasted many times and have never experienced anything bad after immediately returning to my normal eating habits.


A secondary big advantage of fasting is the practice of restraint.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
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El Cid

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #217 on: August 28, 2019, 08:07:53 AM »
nanning, i am not talking about any "evolutionary biological context". I am talking about personal experience and the experience of many other people who tried fasting. If you had tried fasting (= eating nothing other than water) any longer than 3-4 days and then you started eating a big meal you would have big problems. After longer fasts (1-2-3 weeks) you could die. That is a fact.

What you are talking about, people/our ancestors in the past not eating for a few days and then eating a lot, does not happen. Look at apes: their food is mostly/almost exclusively vegan (bonobos 95%, orangutan, gorilla 99%, chimpanzee 80-90%) so it never happens that they do not eat for days. There is always something to eat: some leaves, fruits, etc. Same for hunter gatherers: if they had no meat, they ate leaves/roots/grass/berries. There never has been a complete fast, only lowered caloric intake. That is why they could restart eating bigger quantities without problems: their digestive system never "turned off" completely.
I have multidecade experience with fasting myself, and helping others do it. Fasting is an artifical yet great thing for us but you have to keep the rules.

vox_mundi

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #218 on: September 05, 2019, 05:27:56 PM »
Tyson Foods Invests in Plant-Based Shrimp Company
https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2019/09/05/tyson-foods-invests-in-plant-based-shrimp-company.html

- After selling its stake in Beyond Meat in the spring, Tyson Foods' next bet is on plant-based shellfish.
- Its venture capital arm is making the investment in New Wave Foods.
- The start-up makes plant-based shrimp from seaweed, soy protein and natural flavors.

While there are a number of companies tackling plant-based fish like salmon or tuna alternatives, New Wave is one of the few trying to sell crustacean substitutes.

After shrimp, New Wave is planning to tackle crab and lobster. Shrimp is the most consumed seafood in the world, according to co-founder and Chief Technology Officer Michelle Wolf.

... The company plans to target food service first, in part because 80% of shrimp consumption in the U.S. happens outside the home.

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Sigmetnow

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #219 on: September 26, 2019, 10:01:50 PM »
I think this prediction may be wrong. We’ll see. The times, they are a-changing.

McDonald's Is Testing a Plant-Based Burger. It's Going to Fail.
Quote
McDonald's isn't for the health-conscious

McDonald's would love for its test of what it's calling the "the P.L.T." (for plant, lettuce, and tomato) to succeed. The chain will test the new sandwich for 12 weeks in 28 restaurants in southwestern Ontario, starting Sept. 30, according to a press release. That's a small test in a pretty obscure market. The company is doing that because it has decades of experience where consumers ignore healthier options on its menu. And while it wants this to work, it knows it probably won’t.

People who visit fast-food chains generally want a full-on fast food experience. They're not looking for healthy options, because they already view the meal as an indulgence or an earned cheat. That's why various efforts to offer more healthy products have generally not been successful. ...
https://www.fool.com/investing/2019/09/26/mcdonalds-testing-plant-based-burger-going-fail.aspx
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #220 on: September 27, 2019, 02:38:25 AM »
 ;D
Quote
Ramp Capital (@RampCapitalLLC) 9/26/19, 8:07 AM
I’m offended
https://twitter.com/rampcapitalllc/status/1177193040093601792
Image below.  Fun comments at the link.
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vox_mundi

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #221 on: October 01, 2019, 06:11:43 PM »
Raw vs. Cooked Diets Have Distinct Effects on Both Mouse and Human Gut Microbiomes
https://phys.org/news/2019-09-raw-cooked-diets-distinct-effects.html



Scientists at UC San Francisco and Harvard University have shown for the first time that cooking food fundamentally alters the microbiomes of both mice and humans, a finding with implications both for optimizing our microbial health and for understanding how cooking may have altered the evolution of the our microbiomes during human prehistory.

In recent years, scientists have discovered that many facets of human health—ranging from chronic inflammation to weight gain—are strongly influenced by the ecological health of the vast numbers of microbes that live in and on us, collectively known as our microbiome.

... The researchers examined the impact of cooking on the microbiomes of mice by feeding diets of raw meat, cooked meat, raw sweet potatoes, or cooked sweet potatoes to groups of animals—selected because prior data demonstrated that cooking alters the nutrients and other bioactive compounds in both meat and tubers.

To the researchers' surprise, raw versus cooked meat had no discernible effect on the animals' gut microbes. In contrast, raw and cooked sweet potatoes significantly altered the composition of the animals' microbiomes, as well as microbes' patterns of gene activity and the biologically crucial metabolic products they produced. The researchers confirmed their findings using a more diverse array of vegetables, performing what Turnbaugh called a "mad scientist experiment"—feeding the mice an assortment of raw and cooked sweet potato, white potato, corn, peas, carrots, and beets.

The group attributed the microbial changes they saw to two key factors: cooked food allows the host to soak up more calories in the small intestine, leaving less for hungry microbes further down the gut; on the other hand, many raw foods contain potent antimicrobial compounds that appear to directly damage certain microbes.

"We were surprised to see that the differences were not only due to changing carbohydrate metabolism but also may be driven by the chemicals found in plants," Turnbaugh said. "To me, this really highlights the importance of considering the other components of our diet and how they impact gut bacteria.

R. Carmody, et.al., Cooking shapes the structure and function of the gut microbiome[/b]]Cooking shapes the structure and function of the gut microbiome, Nature Microbiology (2019).
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

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nanning

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #222 on: October 02, 2019, 06:58:31 AM »
^^
Thanks for that vox!
(The link doesn't work) https://www.nature.com/articles/s41564-019-0569-4

personal:
This is very interesting to me. I had understood from evolutionary biology that our digestion evolved for cooked food, but this research has much improved my understanding.
I never liked salads and raw vegetables and thought they were less healthy and now I know why. I use steam to cook plants. It saves water and nutrients.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome

El Cid

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #223 on: October 02, 2019, 07:46:51 AM »
I had understood from evolutionary biology that our digestion evolved for cooked food, but this research has much improved my understanding.

Humanity ate raw food for hundreds of thousands of years, cooked food is a relative novelty in evolutionary terms. It is obvious to me that human digestion works best when given much raw food (fruits and vegetables), it is also my experience.

As for "evolutionary biology":
Our closest relatives are the gorilla, orangutan, chimpanzee/bonobo. Other than the chimpanzee they consume almost 100% raw fruits and vegetables (leaves mostly) and some nuts, and even the chimpanzee is 80-90% "raw vegan" (they sometimes hunt for other smaller monkeys and eat them raw). Bonobos are raw fruit eaters and are probably the closest to us.
The only "prey" you can catch with your hands and eat without any preparation is fruits. Go figure

El Cid

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #224 on: October 02, 2019, 07:48:03 AM »
...with all that said, I also think that humanity's digestion changed during the past cca 100-200k yrs, using cooked food, so some cooked food is needed, but much less than people presume...

TerryM

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #225 on: October 02, 2019, 08:07:00 AM »
...with all that said, I also think that humanity's digestion changed during the past cca 100-200k yrs, using cooked food, so some cooked food is needed, but much less than people presume...
Explain that to an Inuit. :)
Terry

El Cid

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #226 on: October 02, 2019, 10:11:58 AM »
very clever Terry
now compare the number of inuits to people living in the tropical and subtropical zones

TerryM

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #227 on: October 02, 2019, 10:32:06 AM »
very clever Terry
now compare the number of inuits to people living in the tropical and subtropical zones
Is that what happens when people eat only raw food? ;D
Terry

nanning

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #228 on: October 02, 2019, 10:40:11 AM »
<snip>
As for "evolutionary biology":

Maybe you've missed this from vox's post:
"cooked food allows the host to soak up more calories in the small intestine, leaving less for hungry microbes further down the gut"


I advise you to read a good book on the subject.
I've learned a lot from this one:

The Story of the Human Body: Evolution, Health, and Disease   by   Daniel E. Lieberman
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #229 on: November 27, 2019, 03:42:29 PM »
America’s Cattle Ranchers are Fighting Back Against Fake Meat
Quote
“The whole point of our product is not to be successful as a new product, but to be successful at the expense of the incumbent industry,” said Pat Brown, Impossible’s chief executive and founder. “Obviously the incumbent industry is going to do whatever it can to throw obstacles in our way.”

The arguments over the ingredients in plant-based products are “silly,” said Jessica Almy, director of policy at the Good Food Institute, a Washington group promoting meat alternatives. Meat is also a processed product, as it contains all the food and medicine an animal took in before it was slaughtered, Ms. Almy said.

“Using scare tactics is a desperate attempt to stem the surging interest in these products,” she said.

In the middle are meat buyers like John Beretta, group vice president of meat and seafood for grocery chain Albertsons Cos. Mr. Beretta took a chance on adding one Beyond product in a single California store roughly three years ago after he was pitched by the company.

“I’m a meat guy. I thought it had some flavor, texture. We gave it a shot,” said Mr. Beretta, in the meat business for 38 years.

Now, meat alternatives command an entire section in Albertsons’ meat aisle, with Beyond sharing space with Lightlife and the store’s own plant-based products. About 90% of the 2,268 stores owned by Albertsons now have alternatives in the meat section, with the products sold from Maryland to Alaska.
“Our beef customers are enjoying it,” he said. “They are buying multiple packages of it at one time.”

Restaurants and retailers said they are trying to keep both sides happy. But mostly they want to sell more products, and increasingly plant-based meat alternatives are the products that generate buzz and customers.

“The Impossible Slider has built our sales,” said Jamie Richardson, vice president for corporate relations at White Castle System Inc., one of the first chains to roll out meatless patties nationally last year. “We aren’t walking away from that.”

Mr. Brown, Beyond Meat’s CEO, said he believes companies like his can peacefully coexist with meat producers, and potentially work together. The night before a major restaurant chain announced it would introduce Beyond’s yellow-pea protein-based burgers, Mr. Brown got on the phone, at the chain’s request, to talk with two cattle ranchers who raise beef for the chain. He declined to identify the chain.

Mr. Brown said he listened as the cattlemen rebutted criticisms of the meat industry. He suggested to them that grain and livestock producers could make more money by using some of their land to grow yellow peas and other crops used to make meat alternatives. He told them that the two camps didn’t need to be at odds.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/americas-cattle-ranchers-are-fighting-back-against-fake-meat-11574850603
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #230 on: December 09, 2019, 02:38:03 PM »
“We start with the conversation about Meatless Mondays. People wake up on Tuesday and realize they didn’t die from not heaving meat.  The goal is to get people to acknowledge that meat is destructive to our environment and to our bodies. And then we can start drilling in on the menu, and showing the alternatives.”

New York just introduced Meatless Monday in jails
Quote
“Going meatless once a week can reduce a person’s risk of chronic, preventable conditions like cancer, cardiovascular disease, diabetes and obesity,” Glenn O’Connor, DOC’s director of nutritional service, said in the release. “It can also help reduce our [institution’s] carbon footprint,” and save water.
...
The campaign has taken off among New York’s general population, too: In March, Mayor Bill De Blasio, a Democrat, announced that the city’s more than 1,800 public schools would serve vegetarian lunches to 1 million students, one day a week. The city runs the largest school food program in the country, representing $200 million in annual spending, according to a report issued by the city’s Office of the Director of Food Policy.

De Blasio’s Green New Deal, a wide-ranging environmental initiative modeled after a similar congressional resolution announced in February of this year, calls for reducing purchases of beef by 50 percent at all city facilities, and increasing alternative protein options. The plan, which also proposed phasing out processed meat purchased by city agencies, was blasted by the cattle industry. The president of the Nebraska Farm Bureau said De Blasio was perpetuating a “myth” that “U.S. beef production is destroying the planet.” ...
https://newfoodeconomy.org/new-york-city-jails-meatless-monday/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #231 on: January 08, 2020, 06:59:00 PM »
Kroger is the U.S.’s largest grocery store chain.

Kroger launches private-label vegan beef as demand for meat substitutes soars
Quote
Kroger is launching new private-label vegan ground beef and burger patties as it seeks to capitalize on growing consumer demand for plant-based meatless substitutes, the company said Wednesday.

Meatless products could be a sizeable opportunity for Kroger. UBS estimates that U.S. grocery stores will sell $7.2 billion of meat substitutes by 2025, up from $750 million in 2018, as consumers eat less meat due to health or environmental concerns. ...
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/07/kroger-launches-private-label-meatless-beef.html
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Bruce Steele

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #232 on: January 08, 2020, 07:36:10 PM »
Sig, The research and development department for one of the majors in the vegan burger business just ordered 15 pounds of mangalitsa fat from my farm. I guess if you want to imitate something you should start with high quality product ! 

Sigmetnow

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #233 on: January 08, 2020, 08:21:30 PM »
Sig, The research and development department for one of the majors in the vegan burger business just ordered 15 pounds of mangalitsa fat from my farm. I guess if you want to imitate something you should start with high quality product !

Cool. 8)  Enticing people away from industrially-farmed meat by making a more attractive, niche-like plant substitute is all to the good.
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gerontocrat

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #234 on: January 08, 2020, 08:30:34 PM »
Kroger is the U.S.’s largest grocery store chain.

Kroger launches private-label vegan beef as demand for meat substitutes soars
Quote
Kroger is launching new private-label vegan ground beef and burger patties as it seeks to capitalize on growing consumer demand for plant-based meatless substitutes, the company said Wednesday.

Meatless products could be a sizeable opportunity for Kroger. UBS estimates that U.S. grocery stores will sell $7.2 billion of meat substitutes by 2025, up from $750 million in 2018, as consumers eat less meat due to health or environmental concerns. ...
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/07/kroger-launches-private-label-meatless-beef.html
If your business in the US is to grow and sell live cattle, you've had a fairly rotten time in the last 5 years.

Will meatless meat crash the live cattle market in the next few years? Many of us will not mourn the closure of those disgusting feed lots.

Or will it still be marginal?
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TerryM

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #235 on: January 08, 2020, 08:52:40 PM »
Sig, The research and development department for one of the majors in the vegan burger business just ordered 15 pounds of mangalitsa fat from my farm. I guess if you want to imitate something you should start with high quality product !
Imitation. Syncerity. Flattery.


Congratulations!
Terry

kassy

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #236 on: January 08, 2020, 08:55:45 PM »
They are looking at the mangalitsa fat to reverse engineer it with beans? 
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

Bruce Steele

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #237 on: January 09, 2020, 12:14:04 AM »
They didn’t tell me their  plans but I did look up “Beyond Meat” and if McDonalds becomes their clientele it may beat Tesla as a growth stock. I don’t invest so it is just a curiosity.
 It might make some logical sense to think they are looking into pork substitutes but I am just guessing. How they turn coconut oil into pig fat is alchemy. I will stick with eating pork . I can’t handle what passes for sausage at the breakfast places. Seems like imitation already ! Bad for the piggies, tastes like imitation, texture wrong, and not so great on the environment.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #238 on: January 10, 2020, 09:32:13 PM »
Quote
They are looking at the mangalitsa fat to reverse engineer it with beans?

They didn’t tell me their  plans but I did look up “Beyond Meat” and if McDonalds becomes their clientele it may beat Tesla as a growth stock. I don’t invest so it is just a curiosity.
 It might make some logical sense to think they are looking into pork substitutes but I am just guessing. How they turn coconut oil into pig fat is alchemy. I will stick with eating pork . I can’t handle what passes for sausage at the breakfast places. Seems like imitation already ! Bad for the piggies, tastes like imitation, texture wrong, and not so great on the environment.


I think the goal is precisely that:  to engineer environmentally-better plant materials for a taste and texture like prime meat products — but not to “become” meat (that’s what the meat-cell-culture side is attempting).
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #239 on: January 17, 2020, 08:31:29 PM »
Nestlé adds sausages to its range of plant-based meats
It's also gearing up to launch a range of plant-based deli meats.
Quote
Nestlé has revealed that it's adding another plant-based meat product to its selection after the "huge success" of its alternative burgers and grounds. It's launching plant-based sausages in the US and in Europe, and they're supposed to "taste and cook like a sausage should." The version coming out in the US is a pea protein-based sausage under Nestlé's Sweet Earth brand, which was also behind the veggie mix Awesome Burger. It will come in three variants -- Habanero Cheddar, Asian Ginger Scallion and Chik'n Apple -- and will be available for purchase in April.

Meanwhile, Europeans are getting a soy-based sausage in Bratwurst and Chorizo variants. While soy is its main ingredient, it also uses beetroot, carrots, peppers and rapeseed and coconut oils. It will be released as part of the "Incredible" meat alternative lineup under the company's Garden Gourmet brand and will be available for purchase in 11 European markets, including Austria, Belgium, Germany, the Netherlands, Norway, Sweden and Switzerland, starting in April. ...
https://www.engadget.com/2020/01/17/nestle-plant-based-sausages/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #240 on: January 30, 2020, 02:51:18 PM »
'What we are really seeing in this kind of movement that is sweeping the country is a desire for people to eat less animal protein and they do it for various reasons'

KFC To Trial Vegan Fried Chicken In 66 US Outlets: Will Roll Out Nationally If Successful
Quote
KFC is set to trial vegan fried chicken in almost 100 of its US outlets - and if the trial is successful, KFC will roll out the vegan option to its 4,000 US restaurants.

The chicken giant has partnered plant-based tech company Beyond Meat to create the nuggets, which will be sold in 66 restaurants in the Charlotte, N.C., and Nashville areas from February 3 for three weeks. The nuggets, which are made from soy and wheat will cost from $4.29 to $15.99 and be offered in servings of four, eight, or 12, and as part of combo meals.

Trial
This latest launch follows a one-day trial in a single Atlanta store last year - which saw the nuggets sell out in hours.

"It blew us away. The proof will be in this expanded test to really tell us if this something that has legs," said Andrea Zahumensky, chief U.S. marketing officer for KFC.

"What we are really seeing in this kind of movement that is sweeping the country is a desire for people to eat less animal protein and they do it for various reasons - sustainability, health reasons. Many people do it because they want to be part of the movement and it's cool to do it."
https://www.plantbasednews.org/lifestyle/-kfc-trial-vegan-fried-chicken-us-outlets-roll-out-successful
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Neven

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Re: Becoming Vegan.
« Reply #241 on: February 03, 2020, 12:47:26 PM »
Quote
The proof will be in this expanded test to really tell us if this is something that has legs

Of course, it doesn't have legs.  ;D
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TerryM

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Re: Becoming Vegan
« Reply #242 on: February 03, 2020, 04:07:46 PM »
Mere hunger would never drive me to dine on the Colonel's Nuggets. I can't imagine that fake chicken nuggets could be worse than the real thing. Given a choice between the "Original Recipe" and the fake nuggets, I'd certainly opt for anything that they offered as a replacement.
Terry

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Re: Becoming Vegan
« Reply #243 on: February 03, 2020, 04:25:31 PM »
Arthur C. Clarke once wrote a short story set a few centuries in the future. Fake meat that is chemically identical to real meat is universal. And then a expert is testifying to Congress about a scandal he had just uncovered. A new mystery meat has become a universal sensation, and he investigated what it was. First, he had to tell the Congressmen what meat once was in reality, something no one talks about. The congressmen are horrified and sickened to find out what their ancestors ate. Then he reveals what the new meat is:
"There is now no scientific test that can distinguish any of us from cannibals."
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Bruce Steele

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Re: Becoming Vegan
« Reply #244 on: February 03, 2020, 04:40:10 PM »
Sig, “What we are really seeing in this kind of movement that is sweeping the country is a desire for people to eat less animal protein and they do it for various reasons”

It would be interesting to have people make lists for what the driving “ various reasons “ are .

I feel bad for the bird
It tastes bad
It isn’t healthy
It smells bad
Chicken farms stink
Vegetables use less energy to produce
Vegetables are renewable?
Vegetables are safer
Salmonella
Epidemiology major
Help my stock portfolio
Curiosity
Religion
It’s trendy

What do you want from life ? The tubes

   https://genius.com/The-tubes-what-do-you-want-from-life-lyrics
« Last Edit: February 03, 2020, 04:51:05 PM by Bruce Steele »

Sigmetnow

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Re: Becoming Vegan
« Reply #245 on: February 03, 2020, 05:42:46 PM »
Sig, “What we are really seeing in this kind of movement that is sweeping the country is a desire for people to eat less animal protein and they do it for various reasons”

It would be interesting to have people make lists for what the driving “ various reasons “ are .
...

Bruce,
I have written previously that I expect niche animal farms to continue to exist, providing luxury food items.  I am not trying to denigrate your pig-raising business with these posts.  (Despite the fascinating fact that, having not eaten anything with four feet for so long, the photos of slabs of pork on your website actually made me gag.)

But caring, little farms cannot feed the entire world.  Switching the majority of the population to plant-based (or insect-based! ;)) diets, with real meat an occasional luxury, is a more efficient, more humane, less polluting and desperately needed alternative.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Bruce Steele

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Re: Becoming Vegan
« Reply #246 on: February 03, 2020, 10:20:46 PM »
Sig, I am very much interested in something much smaller than feeding the masses. Yes feeding people with vegetable based foods will take over the low end of human protein demands ,prices will drive the conversion . There will be fewer farmers and more people will be even further from any tangible connection with nature.
 There will still be fishermen, farmers and ranchers , just less and less. And one day it might be necessary to live alone , feed yourself on food you personally grew and AVOID ALL HUMAN contact.
We are quite different Sig. You can invest in the future however you wish, luckily I can do the same.
I don’t have faith in technology and there is a black swan circling .  I know it’s just a nasty disease and modern medicine will tamp down the threat but it should offer some indication to our collective risk when less and less people can live alone, a long time alone.
 But mostly I farm cause I like it and even when my job comes with stigma attached it also provides me some pride and a place to call home.
 
 
 

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Re: Becoming Vegan
« Reply #247 on: February 04, 2020, 06:50:22 AM »
^^
I think the important thing is how you treat the animals. A happy looking pig in the mud is gold.
You are a shining beacon of high morality in a world of torturous animal agribusiness.

Dear Bruce, I wonder, do you get emotionally attached to some of your pigs? How is your relationship with them?
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Bruce Steele

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Re: Becoming Vegan
« Reply #248 on: February 04, 2020, 08:16:17 AM »
Nanning, I keep 500lb. boars and I get in their pens twice a day , every day. I have raised these animals from babies and I give them back scratches and try to make them friendly because they are potentially lethal. I tend to sows as they farrow( have babies ). For the most part the sows are also friends but a sow with babies needs lots of respect , and some skill at jumping a fence when I have to.
Boars can not be eaten because they taste terrible ( boar taint ) so I keep old boars around even though they are way past their breeding days because I am not able to kill them for a lack of utility.
It is far better that the pigs have each other as friends and I try to keep them together ,a boar and sow or groups of younger pigs. My job is to keep them healthy, happy and well fed. I do get attached .
 I have been asked many times how I can raise them as friends and send them to slaughter, I don’t have any good answer.
 
 I have a crop of spelt planted. Spelt is an ancient grain and every year or two for the last ~eight thousands years some farmer had planted the same seed until one day I too took up keeping  them viable . Maybe someday someone else will plant spelt I kept. The pigs are also both a privilege to care for and a responsibility to maintain as a rare breed. I keep track of breeding lines and select for certain traits like good feet, or good maternal instincts.
 
 I am only a place keeper in a long, now dying tradition. Hopefully the pigs genetics, the spelt, the dent corn and the little pieces of the past I keep a place for will outlive me.

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Becoming Vegan
« Reply #249 on: February 04, 2020, 12:45:53 PM »
Yeah, but I bet you don't treat them as well as Fred Ziffel treats Arnold  ;D
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