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Author Topic: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Reduction in Warmer Atlantic Water  (Read 41093 times)

timallard

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Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Erosion Control Proof-of-Methods
« Reply #150 on: September 03, 2016, 04:02:37 PM »
Erosion control projects are going to be used to learn and refine the levee building methods at first for shoaling, using the shoals to direct sediment transport to intentionally fill in areas that are then cladded for longevity, the island protected by added land that can include raising it for sea-level rise at the same time the conveyors are placing at the shore.

-tom

RoxTheGeologist

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Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Erosion Control Proof-of-Methods
« Reply #151 on: September 03, 2016, 06:33:24 PM »

Read the paper I posted on the refreeze thread. It has interesting comments on the effect of damming the strait.

timallard

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Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Erosion Control Proof-of-Methods
« Reply #152 on: September 03, 2016, 11:00:30 PM »

Read the paper I posted on the refreeze thread. It has interesting comments on the effect of damming the strait.
Thanks, I found a couple of comments so consider that this post is for proof-of-methods & strategies to reduce the risk of creating a monster, yet the straits have only been open briefly by proportion it stays land most of a glacial-interglacial cycle, opening 12k-ybp this reduces most doubts for negative on effects on wildlife and all, latest evidence is that the megafauna and Clovis Culture were wiped out by a broken up asteroid not climate or people, this ~12,900-ybp.

Seeing the immediate need to prevent villages going away it's a best way to test it all to learn how to do the big deal, if we can defend against erosion first by directing sediments to do the job with cladded artificial shoals that would show a lot of savvy, then it's being based on valid thinking and a refined method to get results.

To me the greater risk is losing what's left of the sea-ice, the analogy I found is what's been lost over the 1980-2010 extent is worth about 25-years of energy for the USA, ~3,800-Twh x 25 = 95,000-Twh/year.

Globally the steam thermal plants emit about 36,000-Twh/year in heat-pollution, waste-heat to soils, the air & water used for cooling and that's only 38% of the heat gain then add in the portion that's re-radiated back so far as context.

If the straits were still frozen right now except near shore where the shipping & sea-mammal pathways are, then what's your opinion of the idea? Would that be worth the risks?
-tom

timallard

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Recent summary wording: A solution to slow down accelerating Arctic warming and to forestall the inevitable is damming Bering Straits to 1/100 its volume flow to create a year-round sea-ice refuge.

To do this using modified Dutch levee & dam methods for deeper water learning and refining the machines & technique by raising and restoring villages being lost.

When ready to then build a weir dam & shipping locks at St. Lawrence Island, then with reduced flow to build ice-polders protecting sections to allow the bottom to refreeze, that allowing the chance to remain all year in some areas.

Then to build atolls around the methane flares to refreeze them, this may be fairly fast as the bubbles create an up-flow pulling in colder water at the sides all winter.

Using the ice-polders and larger areas calmed by levee sections and shoals to then corral and sustain ice much longer if not year-round in half the Bering Sea, all of the Chukchi Sea and extend into the Beaufort on the Alaska side, to levee & shoal the entire Arctic Basin the goal.

It's time to get serious and try to stop the early melt-out by the ice each spring to-sea from the shoreline.

It's all heat-transfer physics doing this water is 13-times better at holding heat than air, we must stall and pond the runoff from permafrost melting inland until 2070 then it slows down, all the glaciers in Alaska and globally are gone by then for being late-season water supplies.

The reduction in volume into the Arctic Basin reduces the volume of warmer Atlantic water drawn in to just under 1-sverdrup of 3-sverdrup coming a 30% reduction, the North Atlantic Overturning Current is about 15-sverdrups [1-sverdrup = 1-million cubic-meters/second].

This counters the Gulf Stream disruption of the AOC by 30%, not trivial, and prevents 30-Terawatt-hours a year of heat coming in as fresher water staying on top melting ice from below to 300-Gigawatt-hours/year of heat, these facts why it can have a large effect globally.

All it takes is recognition of this needing to be done, and, emission reductions are too slow to matter now to the accelerating feedbacks including ocean acidification.

Finally, to close a loop I want to ship the brine from California's new desalination plants to Alaskan waters to dispense there to counter acidification, a fairly new shellfish farm can't grow 4-5 months of the year ...
-tom

timallard

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Beluga migration was a primary concern and the choice of a weir dam allows all sea mammals to swim through, it's not a solid wall dam. The shipping lanes are where you control freshwater flow still coming north. Walrus use sea ice to drift them north, hard with no ice the shipping lanes intend to provide them with the sea ice transport.

Keep in mind today islanders don't have a winter airport at times, the ice breaking up and moving even in winter.

We need to establish global cold forcings, this is a unique geographic chance to do this if in time. When the 2007 minimum extent happened the estimate of heat gained over the 1980-2000 average was 95,000-terawatt-hours that year, to shut down the waste-heat of all steam plants removes 36,000-twh/yr, see the problem of allowing sea ice to go?

We need actions that install cold forcings on a global scale not dependent upon emissions reductions or controls, they simply won't act fast enough with albedo loss warming the deeper water, a  critical runaway greenhouse factor in the Arctic via methane clathrate releases.

A geotechnical engineering solution to refreeze methane plumes is part of this solution using the same methods as poldering for sustaining sea ice all year.

This post is 2-years old, we're at 490-ppm CO2eq, warm moist air in winter now blocking west.to.east flow, air is being warmed from the sea surface always churning warm water up thus forming a wedge under the cold air mass severing the shear normally holding a connection by the less dense air caught below it.

Thus cold air can only reach lower latitudes in winter over land, 5-Amazon's of volume flow north through the straits, without turning off that flow the system continues towards runaway.

I feel we did pass a warm ocean tipping point for winter atmospheric circulation, we need to do anything looking reasonable such as painting roofs white in the tropics, it's a simple idea with terawatts of cold forcing the return.
-tom

gerontocrat

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The Bering Strait links the Arctic Ocean with the Bering Sea and separates the continents of Asia and North America at their closest point. The strait averages 98 to 164 ft (30 to 50 m) in depth and at its narrowest is about 53 mi (85 km) wide.

Bloody big dam. Highway on top in the spirit of Russo-American Friendship ?

ps:It isn't just Beluga Whales that visit the Arctic CAB during the summer. Orca, Narwhals, Dolphins and all the food chain on which they live.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2018, 03:37:26 PM by gerontocrat »
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Shared Humanity

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I have no doubt that massive geoengineering projects are in our near term future as we struggle to both mitigate and adapt to climate change and this is certainly an interesting one but I fear this focus takes our eye off the ball and puts us squarely in the camp of Rex Tillerson, the current U.S. Secretary of State and former CEO of Exxon who described global warming as an engineering problem and expressed confidence there would be effective engineering solutions. Keep in mind, he was not talking about transitioning to non carbon based energy generation. He was arguing that we would be able engineer our way through temperature rises that are inevitable.

This is foolish and dangerous. We need to stop all human based carbon emissions within 2 decades and anything less spells disaster. When we find ourselves spending trillions on adaptation and mitigation, we will know we have lost the war. Plus, any large scale geoengineering efforts will have severe unanticipated effects.

The resources spent building a dam across the Bering Strait would be better spent on a massive transition away from fossil fuels.

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Fascinating idea. First I thought modern global circulation models could test the effects...
Like, in the artificial Sahara forests proposed by Ornstein et al: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2009/nov/04/forests-desert-answer-climate-change

But it's not just about ocean and atmosphere water circulation. There's also the carbon cycle to consider:

https://www.adn.com/arctic/article/could-massive-dam-between-alaska-and-russia-save-arctic/2010/11/26/
Quote
The nutrients that flow into the Chukchi Sea from the Pacific Ocean foster an abundant marine environment filled with plants, shrimp, crabs, fish, birds, seals, polar bears and whales, scientists say, with all of it dependant on the interplay of the various water currents that collide at the top of the world and travel in layers.

This nutrient flow could drive a significant amount of biological carbon sequestration. Blocking it seems the plan's gravest danger to me.

So, looks more like gambling to me.
(But then, we are in the big game now...)

ivica

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Shared Humanity wrote: "... former CEO of Exxon who described global warming as an engineering problem and expressed confidence there would be effective engineering solutions."

He is expected to say something like that. But with greed in focus, what kind of engineering solutions will make greedy people less greedy?

< what to blame: external factor or greed of authorities who allowed that to happen? >

Archimid

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The Bering straight is only dammed during winter and only the top few meters. Anything beyond that would create a climate change in the area with unforeseen consequences to the rest of the world.

I think that moving available sea ice into the straight might have a similar effect as natural sea ice growth. It would block the ocean-atmosphere interface, block the sun from hitting the ocean and stop the wave action. This might give the Arctic winter a better chance of stablishing old patterns of ice growth and take over from there.

Two obvious disadvantages are that the sea ice moved to the Bering straight before is frozen will melt faster and the ice will have to come from somewhere inside the basin.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2018, 04:35:24 PM by Archimid »
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oren

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timallard, haven't seen you in a while... the idea is still bad. Unforeseen consequences, engineering difficulties, risk of catastrophic failure, but beyond all that, if governments won't pay to deploy solar and wind energy projects and to put in place other decarbonisation solutions, who whould pay for this grandiose scheme intended to get around the GHG problem?? When it's not even clear if it will actually solve anything at all.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2018, 08:15:21 PM by oren »

Shared Humanity

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Had a very successful 30 year career in manufacturing. If there is a single lessen I learned, it is that a focus on symptoms instead of root cause is a recipe for disaster as you do not solve the underlying problem and tinkering with symptoms cause new and ever perplexing problems. If you continue to tinker you end up with wildly out of control processes. This is true for all systems IMHO and, given the complexity of the climate system, tinkering with it is very dangerous. We need to solve the root cause of the problem and we all know what it is...human CO2 emissions.

ivica

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Agreed with all except the last sentence where Shared Humanity wrote in #161: "We need to solve the root cause of the problem and we all know what it is...human CO2 emissions."

I disagree, I see that only as part of the problem. Whats the cause of human CO2 emissions?
Who allowed that, dangers of doing that was known for decades, century maybe.

Whats the full problem description: down to the top, all factors, dependencies...., written clearly.

Full description of the problem needed (only with that in mind search for solutions make sense).
------------------------------------------------
So, where is that? The Description. That have to be somewhere, ppl talk about solutions - for years already, solutions for what?

ivica

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Addition to #162:

Who failed to make humans (timely) aware of the problem (known for a century)?


Archimid

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If there is a single lessen I learned, it is that a focus on symptoms instead of root cause is a recipe for disaster as you do not solve the underlying problem and tinkering with symptoms cause new and ever perplexing problems.


That’s good thinking for manufacturing but in many ways the problem of climate change is more like medicine than engineering. Sometimes healers must treat the symptoms at the same time they attempt to cure the disease. In some cases, the cure for the disease is not known and the only way to manage the problem is to treat the symptoms. In other cases the cure takes a long time and symptoms must be managed.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

ivica

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If there is a single lessen I learned, it is that a focus on symptoms instead of root cause is a recipe for disaster as you do not solve the underlying problem and tinkering with symptoms cause new and ever perplexing problems.


That’s good thinking for manufacturing but in many ways the problem of climate change is more like medicine than engineering. Sometimes healers must treat the symptoms at the same time they attempt to cure the disease. In some cases, the cure for the disease is not known and the only way to manage the problem is to treat the symptoms. In other cases the cure takes a long time and symptoms must be managed.

And what precedes that? The Diagnose? Where is that?

Archimid

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The diagnosis is well known hypercarbondioxidation. The cause CO2 emissions. The symptoms; hyperthermia and ocean acidification with commorbidities of ice loss, sea level rise, jet stream perturbations and others.

I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

ivica

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The cycle repeats at #158.  ;)

Shared Humanity

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If there is a single lessen I learned, it is that a focus on symptoms instead of root cause is a recipe for disaster as you do not solve the underlying problem and tinkering with symptoms cause new and ever perplexing problems.


That’s good thinking for manufacturing but in many ways the problem of climate change is more like medicine than engineering. Sometimes healers must treat the symptoms at the same time they attempt to cure the disease. In some cases, the cure for the disease is not known and the only way to manage the problem is to treat the symptoms. In other cases the cure takes a long time and symptoms must be managed.

But if you know the root cause and you have the cure, this is the correct approach. It is often difficult to determine root cause in manufacturing processes as well. In the case of climate change, we know the root cause and we know the cure.

Shared Humanity

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I've been getting check ups for the past several years. They show a gradual increase in blood pressure, serum cholesterol, organ function and blockages in my arteries. My doctor says the serious weight gain, poor diet and sedentary life style is going to kill me. I can either alter the way I live my life or start taking pills to manage my elevated blood pressure and cholesterol.

What to do?

Our lifestyles are killing us. We need to change the way we live.

gerontocrat

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My doctor says the serious weight gain, poor diet and sedentary life style is going to kill me. I can either alter the way I live my life or start taking pills to manage my elevated blood pressure and cholesterol.

What to do?

Our lifestyles are killing us. We need to change the way we live.
I walk everywhere (if it is too far - I don't go). I hate the cold - but apparently it wakes up the autonomic nervous system and makes all the organs of the body get back into action. (I threw the statins in the bin). I would much rather be in the pub.  But I want to see "what happens next" for a few years more. Bummer.
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Archimid

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Interesting example. Even when heart disease and diabetes are among the leading causes of death, most people do not change the bad habits that lead to both. Instead Doctors prescribe medications that control the symptoms, because they can not control people's habits.

Doctors know what is causing the problem, they even know the cure, but because people fail to change the symotoms must betrayed to prolong the patient's life and quality of life.

It is the same with climate change. We know what is causing it but our collective habits can not be changed with the necesary  speed to save our perfect climate, thus the symptoms must be controlled instead.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

gerontocrat

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To apply your reasoning to the subject "Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Reduction in Warmer Atlantic Water" - the proposal treats the symptoms (maybe) but not the disease.

And like so much medication, the side-effects can be worse than the disease, yet more medication, and so on, and so on ad infinitum until......(the last few seek refuge in what was a hyperloop)

"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

Archimid

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So what you are saying is because this is a self inflicted disease we shouldn't  treat the comorbidities and let the patient die unless the patient  alters the behaviour that is causing the disease. That doesn't  sound like good medicine to me.

I think that in principle moving huge sheets of ice in the direction of the Bering can work. If there are enough FDD's  the missing ice should refreeze and the ice that's  moved should help freeze the Bering faster.  Maybe that buy us time.
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Iceismylife

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I've been getting check ups for the past several years. They show a gradual increase in blood pressure, serum cholesterol, organ function and blockages in my arteries. My doctor says the serious weight gain, poor diet and sedentary life style is going to kill me. I can either alter the way I live my life or start taking pills to manage my elevated blood pressure and cholesterol.

What to do?

Our lifestyles are killing us. We need to change the way we live.
There is an assumption that we aren't past the point of no return.  That is that we can stop global warming by changing what we do.  Is that view accurate?

Permafrost really starts melting at 1.5C above reference.  We have 0.5C of NH cooling by SO2 emissions. And we are at 1.1C above reference. Methane release will keep climate change going hotter.  Using your analogy we are past the point where life stile change will save our health.

gerontocrat

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fantasy - pure fantasy. I withdraw.

"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

Archimid

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There are no easy solutions for the mess we are in. All of them require equally ridiculous amount of resources.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

timallard

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Consider this proposal is the only one using existing engineering & materials to prevent a continuing loss of sea ice with zero chance of natural cold forcings to occur strong enough to matter in the Eastern Arctic where it matters most.

Damming the Straits of Gibraltar is on the table a $275B project in 1200ft of water, this is 165ft.

During the 2007 minimum extent the gain in ocean heat was 95,000-terawatt-hours above the 1980-2000 average.

If we close all steam plants 250Mwh & above it removes 36,000-twh of waste-heat.

Doing nothing insures a runaway greenhousing in the Arctic the methane plume has grown and reported values climbing.

For electricity please consider permanent magnet motors for base-load megawatt-hours has zero emissions, no fuel, very low waste-heat and no water per Mwh ...

If anyone is truly into trying one single project with the greatest possible positive effects to alter an accelerating runaway condition, this project stands alone and it's not a engineering challenge versus anything else in the public venue.

As an independent designer long into coastal structures with recent work on tsunami attenuation systems instead of seawalls, all I can do is the work, I can't finance this or it'd be half done now with some ice polders hanging on all year that were easy ones.

Just sayin', this isn't a Three Rivers Dam, it's a weir dam, constant flow not closed.
-tom

Pmt111500

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This is a somewhat interesting project, that might do some good. At the very least it would be a source of renewable energy, as the flow across Bering is generally northward. The slight or even larger cooling of the Chukchi and neighboring seas induced by the build might prevent some blowouts of methane. This would move the warmth of Pacific to eventually enter southern ocean. Albedo effect should still be favorable to climate in general, though. Build large locks to it to use the northern Sea routes when they are open. Ice stresses to such a dam would be enormous though and there are probably easier locations for renewable energy generation.

On related issue, I'm glad de Lesseps didn't manage to dig a sea-level canal in Panama. Connecting Pacific to Atlantic there would have made it much harder to lessen the effects of global warming.
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oren

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If anyone is truly into trying one single project with the greatest possible positive effects to alter an accelerating runaway condition, this project stands alone and it's not a engineering challenge versus anything else in the public venue.
Just not to leave that unanswered: deploy solar panels and wind turbinrs for electricity use across the globe. Much easier, no risk, probably cheaper, and deals with the root cause of the problem rather than (maybe and barely) dealing with one of the symptoms.

timallard

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In reply to not damming the Straits, the planet needs a cold-forcing, this project provides one in the Eastern Arctic of enough cold to turn warm, moist surface air north bringing rain to Anchorage, then cools and can only go south over land which cools quickly to freeze oranges in Florida.

This circulation will continue whenever The Blob forms in the Gulf of Alaska, with this in place it'll turn this air-mass east into
-tom

Tor Bejnar

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When I saw this thread re-surface, I thought that if the name "Bering Strait" was changed to "The Southern Border", a certain Mr. Trump would build it for us. (not that I want it built in the first place). What's his quote:  "Walls work 100% of the time." With certainty like that, what could go wrong?
[Sorry about that.]
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things.