Support the Arctic Sea Ice Forum and Blog

Author Topic: Aviation  (Read 68733 times)

sidd

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 5948
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 841
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Aviation
« Reply #350 on: September 18, 2020, 06:16:14 AM »
Slutsken at cnn: fuel savings from flying in formation

" avian scientists began to understand that birds were increasing aerodynamic efficiencies by flying in close formation, taking advantage of the changed airflow in each bird's wake."

"the Airbus fello'fly flight demonstration project will fly two large commercial aircraft in formation, looking to mimic the energy savings of our feathered friends."

" test flights in 2016 with an Airbus A380 megajet and A350-900 wide-body jetliner"

"Initial flight testing with two A350s began in March 2020. The program will be expanded next year to include the involvement of Frenchbee and SAS airlines, along with air traffic control and air navigation service providers from France, the UK, and Europe"

"  It's really nothing to do with close formationIt's really nothing to do with close formation"

"They will be 1 1/2 to 2 nautical miles away from the leading aircraft, and slightly offset, which means they are on the side of the vortex. It's no longer the vortex, it's the smooth current of rotating air which is next to the vortex, and we use the updraft of this air."

"on long-haul flights, fuel savings of between 5% and 10% may be achieved"

"Once in the upwash, autoflight systems will be required to maintain the correct position"

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/airbus-formation-flight/index.html

There's a reference to a paper from 2001 about pelicans which is quite nice. doi: 10.1038/35099670

sidd



kassy

  • Moderator
  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3379
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1327
  • Likes Given: 1280
Re: Aviation
« Reply #351 on: September 27, 2020, 11:03:24 AM »
There was a great article on aviation which i forgot to post luckily ASLR posted it on his thread:

The linked reference indicates that the climate forcing from global aviation is higher than previously assumed by consensus climate science:

Lee, D. S. et al. (2020) The contribution of global aviation to anthropogenic climate forcing for 2000 to 2018, Atmospheric Environment, doi:10.1016/j.atmosenv.2020.117834

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1352231020305689

Abstract
Global aviation operations contribute to anthropogenic climate change via a complex set of processes that lead to a net surface warming. Of importance are aviation emissions of carbon dioxide (CO2), nitrogen oxides (NOx), water vapor, soot and sulfate aerosols, and increased cloudiness due to contrail formation. Aviation grew strongly over the past decades (1960–2018) in terms of activity, with revenue passenger kilometers increasing from 109 to 8269 billion km yr−1, and in terms of climate change impacts, with CO2 emissions increasing by a factor of 6.8–1034 Tg CO2 yr−1. Over the period 2013–2018, the growth rates in both terms show a marked increase. Here, we present a new comprehensive and quantitative approach for evaluating aviation climate forcing terms. Both radiative forcing (RF) and effective radiative forcing (ERF) terms and their sums are calculated for the years 2000–2018. Contrail cirrus, consisting of linear contrails and the cirrus cloudiness arising from them, yields the largest positive net (warming) ERF term followed by CO2 and NOx emissions. The formation and emission of sulfate aerosol yields a negative (cooling) term. The mean contrail cirrus ERF/RF ratio of 0.42 indicates that contrail cirrus is less effective in surface warming than other terms. For 2018 the net aviation ERF is +100.9 mW (mW) m−2 (5–95% likelihood range of (55, 145)) with major contributions from contrail cirrus (57.4 mW m−2), CO2 (34.3 mW m−2), and NOx (17.5 mW m−2). Non-CO2 terms sum to yield a net positive (warming) ERF that accounts for more than half (66%) of the aviation net ERF in 2018. Using normalization to aviation fuel use, the contribution of global aviation in 2011 was calculated to be 3.5 (4.0, 3.4) % of the net anthropogenic ERF of 2290 (1130, 3330) mW m−2. Uncertainty distributions (5%, 95%) show that non-CO2 forcing terms contribute about 8 times more than CO2 to the uncertainty in the aviation net ERF in 2018. The best estimates of the ERFs from aviation aerosol-cloud interactions for soot and sulfate remain undetermined. CO2-warming-equivalent emissions based on global warming potentials (GWP* method) indicate that aviation emissions are currently warming the climate at approximately three times the rate of that associated with aviation CO2 emissions alone. CO2 and NOx aviation emissions and cloud effects remain a continued focus of anthropogenic climate change research and policy discussions.
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 19425
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 863
  • Likes Given: 326
Re: Aviation
« Reply #352 on: October 03, 2020, 03:08:50 PM »
Please take these planes off our hands.

OCTOBER 01, 2020
Boeing courting Delta, others to take 737 MAX 'white tails': sources
Quote
SEATTLE/CHICAGO (Reuters) - Delta Air Lines (DAL.N) is among airlines Boeing Co (BA.N) has approached to buy dozens of 737 MAX jets built for clients that have since scrapped their orders or gone bust, two people familiar with the matter said.

As the 737 MAX edges closer to commercial flight after an 18-month grounding, Boeing is scrambling to find buyers for the so-called “white tails” - jets painted white, awaiting an airline livery, or whose color schemes need to be swapped.

The 737 MAX’s ban following two fatal crashes had already caused some carriers to walk and the number of unsold jets has soared as the COVID-19 pandemic decimated demand for air travel and new aircraft. ...
https://www.reuters.com/article/boeing-737max-delta-idUSKBN26M5JK
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

blu_ice

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 146
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 36
  • Likes Given: 112
Re: Aviation
« Reply #353 on: October 05, 2020, 12:15:35 PM »
The last A380 superjumbo has been built.

Quote
Sep 25, 2020,12:36pm EDT
The Last A380 Just Rolled Off Airbus’ Production Line. It May Never Fly A Single Passenger.
Eric Tegler

Aerospace & Defense

The last ever Airbus A380 awaits final assembly after rolling off the Airbus production in Toulouse
 
Airbus completed initial assembly of the last A380, the world’s largest passenger plane, at its production plant in Toulouse, France, on Wednesday. The company has built 242 of the double-decker airliners but the future of the final jet, serial number 272 is uncertain. Will it ever fly passengers?

That’s a question for the airline customer, Airbus says. The last A380 is one of eight that Dubai-based Emirates still has on order. Emirates is the largest operator of A380s with a fleet of 115 in service. Thanks to Covid-19, all but a handful of its current fleet of superjumbos is grounded though the airline did resume A380 service to six destinations - Moscow, Toronto, Cairo, Ghuangzhou, London and Paris - starting in July.

As of August, the number of parked A380s worldwide stood at 204, excluding previously retired jets. There simply isn’t passenger demand for superjumbos or other widebodies though analysts point out that airlines are reluctant to take them off the books now since their retirement would trigger impairment charges.

Since A380s form the backbone of its fleet, that’s a thorny problem for Emirates. However there may be a way to partially get around it. Emirates could cancel its final order for superjumbos.

In May, Bloomberg reported that the Middle East carrier was seeking to cancel five of its last eight A380 deliveries. With the pandemic expected to drag on into 2021 and a full rebound in passenger demand not expected until several years later, Emirates may try to cancel its entire order including the very last A380 built.

I asked Airbus for an interview on the future of superjumbo 272 but the company declined, sending emailed responses instead. The last A380 will stay in Toulouse for production checks, engine installation, systems calibration and a test flight. Next, it will go to Airbus’ Hamburg, Germany facility for cabin installation and full painting in Emirates’ livery. And then?

Emirates said it couldn’t comment on its A380 plans, citing the lack of available spokespeople with the onset of the weekend in Dubai. That leaves 272’s future in question.

Other operators like Air France and Lufthansa have announced the retirement of their A380 fleets, possibly as soon as 2022-23. For carriers like Asiana Airlines, Qatar Airways, Etihad Airways, Malaysia Airlines and Thai International Airways, shrinking or retiring the A380 portions of their fleet looks likely. That leaves only a few including British Airways, Singapore Airlines and Qantas as longer term potential A380 operators.

Even for these airlines, the numbers will have to make sense. Industry analyst Dhierin Bechai points out that the minimum A380 fleet size “for aircraft to benefit from scale advantages and service a route is considered to be six aircraft.”

A380 production began in 2006 after a two-year delay and $25 billion in investment from Airbus. The company anticipated a market for up to 1,200 of its massive airliners capable of carrying up to 853 passengers.

In the years since, Airbus estimates that the global A380 fleet has carried approximately 320 million passengers. But in late 2020 it appears possible that the last superjumbo ever built may never carry even one paying passenger.

*Emirates offered this late-breaking statement regarding the A380:

The Emirates A380 experience remains highly sought after by travelers for its spacious and comfortable cabins. The airline will gradually expand the deployment of this popular aircraft in line with demand and operational approvals.

Tom_Mazanec

  • Guest
Re: Aviation
« Reply #354 on: October 07, 2020, 07:41:00 PM »
How Safe Is Air Travel In COVID Time? A JAMA Article Says It's Safer Than You Think
https://www.acsh.org/news/2020/10/01/how-safe-air-travel-covid-time-jama-article-says-its-safer-you-think-15064
Quote
An article in the latest edition of the Journal of the American Medical Association reports that when it comes to risk from the coronavirus, air travel is much safer than you might believe. It is safer than shopping in a supermarket, riding on a train, or going to work in an office. Why? It's all about the air quality in the cabin.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 19425
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 863
  • Likes Given: 326
Re: Aviation
« Reply #355 on: October 10, 2020, 03:26:43 AM »
7:44 PM · Oct 9, 2020
Flightradar24: "Qantas' ‘Great Southern Land’ scenic ‘flight to nowhere’ has just departed Sydney. It will return in approximately 7 hours.”
https://mobile.twitter.com/flightradar24/status/1314713440523628549
Image below.  Tweet has a link to track the flight.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 19425
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 863
  • Likes Given: 326
Re: Aviation
« Reply #356 on: October 11, 2020, 06:35:45 PM »
The celebrated pilot said that even if the FAA ungrounds the jet next month as expected, additional modifications are needed as soon as possible.
Celebrated pilot Capt. Sully urges further updates to Boeing's 737 MAX
October 10, 2020
Quote
Capt.  Chesley “Sully” Sullenberger  isn’t satisfied that the fixes for Boeing’s 737 MAX proposed by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) are enough.
In an exclusive interview, the celebrated pilot said that even if the FAA ungrounds the jet next month as expected, additional modifications are needed as soon as possible to improve the plane’s crew alerting system and add a third check on the jet’s angle of attack data.
“I'm not going to say, ‘We're done, good enough, move on,'” said Sullenberger.
“People are going to fly on it and I will probably be one of them,” he added. "The updated MAX will probably be as safe as the (previous model) 737 NG when they are done with it. But it's not as good as it should be."
After  the FAA announced in August the proposed design changes for the MAX’s return to service, there were numerous comments from aviation experts calling for such updates. …
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/celebrated-pilot-sully-urges-further-updates-to-boeings-737-max-and-to-older-737s/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 19425
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 863
  • Likes Given: 326
Re: Aviation
« Reply #357 on: October 28, 2020, 06:05:27 PM »
Southwest announced it will no longer limit capacity on flights starting December 1. The change marks an end to Southwest's pandemic policy and allows it the opportunity to fill planes through the typically busy holiday travel season.

Southwest Airlines says it will sell every seat
Quote
Southwest Airlines is about to sell every seat on board its flights.

The news that the airline will no longer limit the number of seats sold comes on the heels of Southwest announcing a $1.2 billion third quarter loss because of the pandemic. In a Thursday earnings report, Southwest announced it will no longer limit capacity on flights starting December 1. The change marks an end to Southwest's pandemic policy and allows it the opportunity to fill planes through the typically busy holiday travel season.

"This practice of effectively keeping middle seats open bridged us from the early days of the pandemic, when we had little knowledge about the behavior of the virus, to now," Southwest said. "Today, aligned with science-based findings from trusted medical and aviation organizations, we will resume selling all available seats for travel beginning December 1, 2020."

Southwest doesn't have assigned seats so it was limiting capacity on flights to allow passengers to spread out rather than blocking middle seats like many other airlines have done. Southwest said it will notify customers on a flight ahead of time if more than 65% of seats are sold.

The airline said Thursday it believes leaving middle seats empty means the airline will miss out on $20 million in potential revenue in October, and between $40 million and $60 million in November.

That leaves Delta Air Lines as the final remaining big four carrier to limit capacity in aircraft cabins. Delta CEO Ed Bastian said last week on a conference call with analysts that the policy is likely to end early in 2021, depending on consumer confidence in air travel.

"We've got a lot of studies coming out from experts on the safety of air travel," Bastian said regarding the airline's current capacity limits. And sometime in the first half of next year, I have no doubt, we will be [lifting] those caps. But we haven't picked a date yet, and I'd say we will continue to start the new year with the caps in place."

United Airlines and American Airlines have been selling every seat for months. Alaska Airlines announced Thursday it will extend its policy of blocking middle seats until January 6, 2021.

A recently released Defense Department study found that among mask-wearing airplane passengers, the risk of airborne droplet transmission in airplanes is limited due to specialized air flow and filtration systems.
https://www.cnn.com/travel/amp/southwest-airlines-selling-middle-seats/index.html
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

NeilT

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2507
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 184
  • Likes Given: 18
Re: Aviation
« Reply #358 on: October 29, 2020, 01:49:21 PM »
There are people who are far less concerned with catching, or spreading, the virus, than they are with their own personal travel needs.

As someone who has driven, alone, around half the width of the US (equivalent), without cruise control, in a 24 hour period, I can sympathise.

My current job has been driven by the pandemic, it is in transport and the project I'm working on is a result of the lack of airline orders due to the pandemic killing airlines.  So, I guess, I see their problems.  I flew one return flight a fortnight up to the end of Feb; I haven't flown since.  Airlines can't withstand this indefinitely and governments are unwilling to support them long term either.

France and Germany pumped upper single digit billions into Air France and Lufthansa to ensure they still have flag carriers when the pandemic is over.  Other governments have not been so forthcoming.

I see this move as a lack of options.  Fly full or die.
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

Robert A. Heinlein

Tom_Mazanec

  • Guest
Re: Aviation
« Reply #359 on: October 29, 2020, 04:55:54 PM »
Who are science’s frequent flyers? Climate researchers
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-03000-1
Quote
Survey finds climate scholars take more flights on average per year — but make greater effort to offset their emissions.

Tom_Mazanec

  • Guest
Re: Aviation
« Reply #360 on: November 02, 2020, 09:22:10 PM »
These Are the Airlines Teetering on the Brink of Covid Ruin
https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/airlines-teetering-brink-covid-ruin-210000548.html
Quote
Carriers in jurisdictions where there is scant support from up high are most likely to go bust, according to an analysis by Bloomberg News. Using the Z-score method developed by Edward Altman in the 1960s to predict bankruptcies, Bloomberg sifted through available data on listed commercial airlines to identify the ones most prone to financial strife.

Versus the same analysis done in March, when the virus was just starting to spread beyond China into parts of Asia and Europe, rapidly cutting off international travel, the results show a clear swing to the West. At least four of the 10 airlines named back then have restructured in some fashion, and all but one were in Asia.

The list now is populated more by carriers in Africa and Latin America, where some have already folded or entered administration. Representatives from Medview Airlines Plc, Precision Air Services Ltd., Grupo Aeromexico SAB and Gol Linhas Aereas Inteligentes SA didn’t immediately respond to requests seeking comment.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 19425
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 863
  • Likes Given: 326
Re: Aviation
« Reply #361 on: November 10, 2020, 03:38:11 AM »
Eviation Set To Deliver First 9-Passenger Electric Airplane In 2022
November 6th, 2020
Quote
The dream of commercially viable electric airplanes is getting closer all the time. Eviation, a startup based in Israel, says it plans to deliver the first of its bespoke airplanes to Cape Air, a regional carrier serving New England, in 2022. Eviation began building Alice, its first electric airplane, in 2017. …

Business Insider provides a transcript of comments made by co-founder and CEO Omer Bar-Yohay regarding that video and they are very revealing. There is a clear philosophical link between Alice and the Model S, the first electric car from Tesla. Both companies elected not to electrify existing products but rather to start from scratch with a clean sheet design. Bar-Yohay acknowledges that the batteries needed to power Alice present design problems. 30% of the takeoff weight of a typical commercial aircraft is jet fuel. At 8,000 lbs, the weight of Alice’s battery is 60% of the plane’s takeoff weight.

To compensate, the airframe itself is make as light at possible. It is also designed to fly through the air more efficiently than conventional airplanes which typically have a lift to drag ratio of 17:1. For Alice, that rate is 25:1, meaning it’s more aerodynamically efficient and uses less energy getting into the air. ‘The battery is not located in one place. “That battery’s literally all over the place,” ‘Bar-Yohay says. “It’s under the floor, it’s in the wings, in the fuselage in different locations.”

Regional travel is a big part of the airline industry. In 2017, half of the 4 billion air tickets sold were for regional flights, according to Business Insider, yet airlines often use planes that are capable of flying across the Atlantic for those flights. “That’s an insanity because we’re using the wrong tools for the job, Bar-Yohay says. By contrast, Alice is built for regional flights up to 650 miles at a cruising speed of 276 mph. That covers journeys like from San Jose to San Diego or London to Prague. While conventional planes fly faster, electric planes like Alice are 2 to 3 orders of magnitude quieter than commercial jet aircraft and could use shorter runways. Those factors mean they can fly into and out of smaller airports that are closer to travelers’ final destinations.

“I think it’s important that the industry looks at its responsibilities to the planet and makes itself more sustainable in terms of emissions, but it needs to work economically,” Bar-Yohay says. Alice costs about $200 per flight hour to operate. A turboprop with similar performance costs between $1,200 and $2,000 per flight hour, meaning ticket prices for Alice could be substantially less than those for conventional aircraft. Lots of people might be delighted to add an hour or two to their flight if they can fly for half the money. …
https://cleantechnica.com/2020/11/06/eviation-set-to-deliver-first-9-passenger-electric-airplane-in-2022/amp/

—-
Electric Air Taxi Service Set To Launch In California By 2021
April 24th, 2020
Quote
Quantum Air announced plans to launch what it’s calling a world’s first — an air taxi service using a fleet of 26 all-electric flying taxis to shuttle passengers between major points in the greater Los Angeles area. Quantum XYZ is claiming that these air taxi trips will replace hours-long car rides in LA’s notoriously bad traffic with “blissfully short” flights that last just a few minutes. And, maybe best of all, Quantum says its air taxi flights will be surprisingly affordable.

Unlike the drone-like, multi-rotor eVTOL concepts that seem to be coming out of the woodwork some days, Quantum’s air taxi service will utilize conventional, fixed-wing aircraft powered by lightweight, high-torque electric motors from Siemens. …

Bye says the eFlyer2 costs just $23 per hour of flight to operate, compared to $110 per hour for a conventionally-powered Cessna 172. …
https://cleantechnica.com/2020/04/24/electric-air-taxi-service-set-to-launch-in-california-by-2021/
⬇️ Photo below.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

wili

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3342
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 600
  • Likes Given: 409
Re: Aviation
« Reply #362 on: November 17, 2020, 06:02:08 PM »
(mods, please merge if there is a relevant thread for this that I missed)

1% of people cause half of global aviation emissions – study

Exclusive: Researchers say Covid-19 hiatus is moment to tackle elite ‘super emitters’


https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/nov/17/people-cause-global-aviation-emissions-study-covid-19

We pretty much all bear some responsibility, but that should not keep us from recognizing who the main villains are in this story
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Bruce Steele

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1949
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 513
  • Likes Given: 27
Re: Aviation
« Reply #363 on: November 18, 2020, 06:55:00 AM »
Not walking the walk !

etienne

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1236
    • View Profile
    • About energy
  • Liked: 207
  • Likes Given: 4
Re: Aviation
« Reply #364 on: November 18, 2020, 07:19:36 AM »
I would even say "Politics". It's a good topic to get angry. Luxembourg has huge traffic and housing issues, once as joke I said that the solution was easy, you just have to increase taxes, but nobody found it funny.

El Cid

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1625
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 616
  • Likes Given: 133
Re: Aviation
« Reply #365 on: November 18, 2020, 07:28:05 AM »
Not until people say "I am responsible for  destroying the planet" instead of blaming it on anyone else, will change happen.

Yes, the rich consume more resources than the poor. However, global aviation is responsible for only 2,5% of CO2 emissions, and even a part of that is freight aviation  (ups and amazon sending all the goodies to you).
So we are talking about at most 1% of total emissions. 10 times as much is emitted by passanger traffic, ie. average Joe driving around instead of biking, walking, whatever.
Aviation by the rich is a red herring. Reduction of superfluous consumption, change of habits by all is needed, besides government regulation aiming to reduce emissions. But look what happened when France wanted to put some 10 cents per liter tax on gasoline: the people revolted. People don't want change. people want to live their cozy lives....

kassy

  • Moderator
  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3379
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1327
  • Likes Given: 1280
Re: Aviation
« Reply #366 on: November 18, 2020, 12:05:03 PM »
Since it is about aviation emissions i have merged this thread into the aviation thread.
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

wili

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3342
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 600
  • Likes Given: 409
Re: Aviation
« Reply #367 on: November 18, 2020, 01:35:16 PM »
That's quite a dodge there, EC!

So if I decide too burn tires in my backyard, and my neighbors complain, I can use your wonderful logic and point out that only a small fraction of urban pollution is from tire burning, while farting is significantly more, and my average joe neighbor farts all the time!

So...'tire burning is a red herring'!!

:) :) :)

(Glad to see that brave people are at the ready to run to the defense of the poor, put upon super-rich people of the world--while also ever ready to dump on the 'average joe'--It really warms the heart to see such intrepid compassion for those least needy among us :) :) :) )
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

oren

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 7135
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2659
  • Likes Given: 2481
Re: Aviation
« Reply #368 on: November 19, 2020, 04:02:40 AM »
You might be surprised to know that many million-milers are not super-rich, not even rich. Like this stringed-instrument guy I know, he used to be a player in an orchestra but that living is dead, and now he is privately trading violins and such, flying all over the globe to show, to buy and to sell, barely making ends meet in the process. A very weird life and very harmful for the planet, but certainly not rich.
There are also many people who fly for their job in marketing, sales or engineering, making a transatlantic return flight every two or four weeks. Certainly richer than the average human, but most are not considered rich in their own countries, and definitely not super-rich. I am familiar with more than a few of such people. Most if not all hate flying. Again, a ruinous lifestyle but one driven by making a living.
The main issue here is globalization, and the too-cheap cost of flights that does not take into account the environmental cost. If transatlantic or regional flights cost 4 times as much, you would not be seeing many of these flights, as it would not be economical to continue making a living this way. Then only the super-rich would be flying, and the above complaint would be more accurate.
What could actually make a big dent is Covid, that has taught all to do remote meetings and to find them acceptable, in fact much more productive unless an actual non-software product is to be demonstrated or transferred during the meeting.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 19425
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 863
  • Likes Given: 326
Re: Aviation
« Reply #369 on: January 27, 2021, 06:13:34 PM »
Boeing stock drops after loss widens to more than $8 billion, misses expectations by wide margin
Jan. 27, 2021
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/boeing-stock-drops-after-loss-widens-to-more-than-8-billion-misses-expectations-by-wide-margin-2021-01-27?mod=home-page

Edit:
Boeing to pay more than $2.5 billion to settle criminal conspiracy charge over 737 Max
Quote
Prosecutors said Boeing “knowingly and willfully” conspired to defraud the United States by undermining the Federal Aviation Administration’s ability to evaluate the safety of the plane.

Boeing admitted that two of its 737 Max flight technical pilots “deceived” the FAA about the capabilities of a flight-control system on the planes, software that was later implicated in the two crashes, the Justice Department said.

“The tragic crashes of Lion Air Flight 610 and Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 exposed fraudulent and deceptive conduct by employees of one of the world’s leading commercial airplane manufacturers,” Acting Assistant Attorney General David P. Burns of the Justice Department’s Criminal Division, wrote in a release. “Boeing’s employees chose the path of profit over candor by concealing material information from the FAA concerning the operation of its 737 Max airplane and engaging in an effort to cover up their deception.”

Two damning congressional investigations after the crashes found management, design and regulatory lapses in the 737 Max’s development and certification. This led to new legislation passed last year to reform aircraft certification, giving more control over the process to the FAA.… 
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/07/doj-fines-boeing-over-2point5-billion-charges-it-with-fraud-conspiracy-over-737-max-crashes.html

Quote
Eric Berger (@SciGuySpace) 1/27/21, 11:28 AM
This is a remarkable chart.

< What happened in 1993?
<< Per the AIA's 1993 annual report: "a shrinking global aerospace market induced by continuing recession among many of the world's foremost trading nations."
https://twitter.com/sciguyspace/status/1354466201238446087
« Last Edit: January 27, 2021, 06:58:52 PM by Sigmetnow »
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

oren

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 7135
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2659
  • Likes Given: 2481
Re: Aviation
« Reply #370 on: January 31, 2021, 01:40:39 AM »
He doesn't address it in this video but somebody in the comments asked a pertinent question: how do you land a plane with all this battery weight onboard? We're truly living in mad times.

Turns out electric planes are not physically impossible, and there have been quite a few demonstration flights (yes, including landings) and many startups developing such planes, that enjoy a very low cost per flight hour. Such planes are suitable for short haul and regional flights and I expect commercial service to begin in 2022 or 2023.

oren

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 7135
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2659
  • Likes Given: 2481
Re: Aviation
« Reply #371 on: January 31, 2021, 01:46:22 AM »
A recent article summarizing the status of electric planes.

https://qz.com/1943592/electric-airplanes-are-getting-close-to-a-commercial-breakthrough/

Electric airplanes are getting tantalizingly close to a commercial breakthrough


zenith

  • New ice
  • Posts: 97
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 6
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Aviation
« Reply #372 on: January 31, 2021, 05:58:12 AM »
How is talking about a Tesla plane in the Tesla thread off topic?

I read the article and the last sentence says it all: "The electric aviation race will be as much against bankruptcy as rivals."

We've heard about plenty of things over the years that were going to happen and change the world that are filed in the "where are they now" bin.

As for your other question about landing weights of aircraft:
Why do airplanes dump fuel?
https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/why-do-airplanes-dump-fuel/

"The reason to dump fuel is simple: to drop weight. Any given aircraft has a Maximum Landing Weight (MLW) at which it can land, and in most cases that weight is lower than its Maximum Takeoff Weight (MTOW). So if an airplane has to return to its departure airport shortly after takeoff – especially when it’s loaded up with fuel for an 11-hour flight like London to Los Angeles – it will likely need to reduce weight in order to land."
Where is reality? Can you show it to me? - Heinz von Foerster

interstitial

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1228
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 320
  • Likes Given: 83
Re: Aviation
« Reply #373 on: January 31, 2021, 06:37:38 AM »
There is a plane that can fly a tank. So landing with heavy weights is not inherently a problem.
Planes that have to dump fuel to land are designed that way. If they had better landing gear and longer runways etc. they could land with more weight. It is a reasonable design assumption that they will not have  a full tank when landing. Every little bit of weight they shave off saves fuel. So the landing gear etc. are designed to only handle the near empty fuel tank weight. 


There is a short hop small commuter plane in production that is powered by batteries.

NeilT

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2507
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 184
  • Likes Given: 18
Re: Aviation
« Reply #374 on: January 31, 2021, 12:15:35 PM »
[edit, fixed the incorrect 80 tonnes to 180 tonnes]

For a typical A340, the weight of max fuel is 95 tonnes. The max landing weight is 192 tonnes and the zero fuel max weight is 180 tonnes, so if it is full of people/cargo and fuel, it must dump 83 tonnes of fuel if it has to do an emergency landing immediately after takeoff. 

MBT's usually weigh around 60 tonnes and the planes that carry them don't carry people, luggage or have seats.

It is worth noting that the ~180 ton A340 only carries around 25 tonnes of passengers and baggage, possibly max, 30 tonnes.  Take out the seats and you are getting close to a MBT.

That being said, the manufacturers could beef up the airframe and landing gear (the wings are tanks and have a max load flex on landing), to take this extra load.  However it would cut both range and carrying capacity due to the extra airframe weight and reduction in fuel capacity.

EV planes will have fixed batteries in both wing and fuselage, so the airframe will have to support it.

Put the whole package together with the power density of fuel against Li batteries and you are not going to see long haul wide bodied electric jets soon.  Potentially a whole new class of materials and batteries will be needed.

Short haul is a very different matter, where many jets fly with minimal fuel for the hop and emergencies.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2021, 06:27:36 PM by NeilT »
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

Robert A. Heinlein

gerontocrat

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 11582
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 3999
  • Likes Given: 32
Re: Aviation
« Reply #375 on: January 31, 2021, 04:21:31 PM »
There is "talk" about Tesla's 4680 battery reaching above 450 Wh / kg in 5 years time. If so, that might expand the potential for E-planes considerably.

Meanwhile NIO claims the density of their new solid state hardware battery is rated at 360Wh/kg and will be in use on its autos in 2022. That would certainly make a difference to the small plane low range market.

ps: My dad, an electronics engineer, was offered a job with EverReady batteries after WW2. He turned it down 'cos he thought batteries had no future.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

zenith

  • New ice
  • Posts: 97
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 6
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Aviation
« Reply #376 on: January 31, 2021, 06:13:29 PM »
Batteries are much discussed in the video.
Where is reality? Can you show it to me? - Heinz von Foerster

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 19425
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 863
  • Likes Given: 326
Re: Aviation
« Reply #377 on: February 23, 2021, 12:53:41 AM »
Jet engines blowing up is not an exceptional event.  But this is a new engine, and a new engine design.
Looks like some may be grounded.  Boeing 777. 
Quote
Dillon Thomas (@DillonMThomas) 2/20/21, 3:53 PM
—PIECES FALLING FROM THE SKY—
BREAKING: large pieces of an aircraft are falling throughout the metro area near #Denver International Airport.
So far no word on what caused the plane to have issues.
….(PC: BPD)  ⬇️ Photo below.
https://twitter.com/dillonmthomas/status/1363230266920030210

Flight 328 @united engine caught fire. my parents are on this flight 
everyone’s okay though!
➡️ https://twitter.com/michaelagiulia/status/1363241125495136267
At the link: ~25 sec vid of something you never want to see out your airplane window

Some Boeing 777 airplanes likely to be removed from service, FAA says
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/02/21/us/boeing-777-airplanes-federal-aviation-administration/index.html
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

NeilT

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2507
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 184
  • Likes Given: 18
Re: Aviation
« Reply #378 on: February 23, 2021, 11:03:53 AM »
hmmm,

Quote
On February 13, 2018, a PW4077-112 performing United Airlines Flight 1175 from San Francisco to Honolulu, about 45 minutes before landing, suffered an uncontained fan blade failure, which caused much of the inlet and cowl to separate from the engine. There was minor damage to the fuselage caused by the ejected debris.[7] The NTSB's final report noted that the primary cause was lapses and failures in P&W's fan blade inspection, resulting in a cracked blade erroneously returning to service.[8]

On December 4, 2020, a Japan Airlines Boeing 777-200, registration JA8978 performing flight JL-904 from Okinawa to Tokyo Haneda with 178 passengers and 11 crew, was climbing out of Okinawa when the left hand engine (PW4084) failed and its access doors ripped off with huge noises prompting the crew to stop the climb and return to Okinawa for a safe landing about 35 minutes after departure. The aircraft stopped on the runway and was subsequently towed to the apron.[9]

On February 20, 2021, a PW4077-112 performing United Airlines Flight 328 from Denver to Honolulu suffered an uncontained fan blade failure shortly after takeoff. There was minor damage to the fuselage caused by the ejected debris. At least one aviation safety website noted the similarity to the UAL1175 incident two years earlier.[10] In response to this second incident, the FAA ordered all Boeing 777s equipped with PW4000-112 engines to be grounded pending thorough inspection.[11] Japanese authorities followed suit, and United, All Nippon, and Japan Airlines all grounded their affected planes.[12] In total, 69 in-service and 59 in-storage Boeing 777 jets are involved.[13] In contrast to the previous incident over ocean[14], this incident's occurrence over populated land resulted in numerous ground observers, as well as significant identification and recovery of the fallen engine debris.[15]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_%26_Whitney_PW4000

So it is not unknown, just uncommon.

Talking about electric air transportation, I wonder about how we have defined the scope of the conversation.  Fixed wing aircraft took over from airships due to speed and handling capabilities which were far better than the old airships.  Modern capabilities now make the ability to use airships more viable.

When using a LTA (lighter than air), vessel, the weight of the batteries are factored into the design of the vehicle.  Therefore it comes down to thrust and how long the requisite batteries could thrust.

Granted hydrogen is an issue and helium is limited.  Then again nobody ever really considered running vehicles on the road on hydrogen, far too dangerous, until today.

I read a dissertation on vacuum LTA flight possibilities over the weekend and wondered if a hybrid solution might be possible, where the LTA used lower than atmospheric pressure lifting vessels filled with lighter than air gas, at the limit of stress below atmospheric pressure.

All of a sudden take-off weights and landing weights vanish.  Other issues present themselves, but could be resolved with the requisite effort.
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

Robert A. Heinlein

kassy

  • Moderator
  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3379
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1327
  • Likes Given: 1280
Re: Aviation
« Reply #379 on: March 16, 2021, 07:45:19 PM »
Climate change: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

A new approach to making jet fuel from food waste has the potential to massively reduce carbon emissions from flying, scientists say.

Currently, most of the food scraps that are used for energy around the world are converted into methane gas.

But researchers in the US have found a way of turning this waste into a type of paraffin that works in jet engines.

The authors of the new study say the fuel cuts greenhouse gas emissions by 165% compared to fossil energy.

This figure comes from the reduction in carbon emitted from airplanes plus the emissions that are avoided when food waste is diverted from landfill.

...

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-56408603
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

Tor Bejnar

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3935
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 684
  • Likes Given: 545
Re: Aviation
« Reply #380 on: April 18, 2021, 03:36:59 AM »
Cross post:
NASA to Attempt First Controlled Flight on Mars As Soon As Monday
https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-to-attempt-first-controlled-flight-on-mars-as-soon-as-monday

NASA is targeting no earlier than Monday, April 19, for the first flight of its Ingenuity Mars Helicopter at approximately 3:30 a.m. EDT (12:30 a.m. PDT).

Data from the first flight will return to Earth a few hours following the autonomous flight. A livestream will begin at 6:15 a.m. EDT (3:15 a.m. PDT), as the helicopter team prepares to receive the data downlink in the Space Flight Operations Facility at NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL).

https://www.nasa.gov/live

If the flight takes place April 19, a postflight briefing will be held at 2 p.m. EDT (11 a.m. PDT)

https://mars.nasa.gov/technology/helicopter/#Watch-Online


Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 19425
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 863
  • Likes Given: 326
Re: Aviation
« Reply #381 on: May 18, 2021, 09:43:52 PM »
Air France uses cooking oil to fly to Canada as green fuel debate rages
Quote
PARIS (Reuters) - Air France-KLM flew a biofuel-powered Airbus A350 from Paris to Montreal on Tuesday, demonstrating the airline’s readiness to adopt low-emissions fuel despite deep industry divisions over the pace of its adoption.
Air France flight 342 took off from Charles de Gaulle airport with a 16% mix of sustainable aviation fuel (SAF) in its fuel tanks, produced in France by Total from used cooking oil.

The flight signalled a “shared ambition to decarbonize air transportation and to develop a SAF supply chain in France”, the companies said in a joint statement with airport operator ADP.
Jet fuel produced from biomass or synthetically from renewable power has the potential to slash carbon emissions, albeit at a heavy cost by comparison to the price of kerosene.

Starting next year, flights departing from France will be required to use 1% SAF, ahead of European Union goals to reach 2% by 2025 and 5% by 2030 under the bloc’s Green Deal policy.

But traditional network airlines have sought to exempt long-haul flights, arguing that a Europe-only SAF requirement could expose them to unfair foreign competition.

That has drawn an angry response from low-cost airlines including Ryanair, Wizz Air and easyJet, which wrote to the EU in March to demand that the rules apply to all flights originating in Europe.
Airlines have a “major responsibility” to cut emissions, Air France-KLM Chief Executive Ben Smith said on Tuesday - while reiterating doubts about European SAF quotas for long-haul.

“We have to be on a level playing field,” Smith told Reuters. “We can’t have a situation where airlines that are based outside Europe can undercut us, (and) that is a real concern.”
Transport and Environment, a Brussels-based campaign group that signed the budget carriers’ open letter, again rejected calls to exclude long-haul from biofuel rules.
Any such exemption would have “no logic”, the group’s aviation director Andrew Murphy said.
https://www.reuters.com/business/sustainable-business/air-france-uses-cooking-oil-fly-canada-green-fuel-debate-rages-2021-05-18/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

gerontocrat

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 11582
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 3999
  • Likes Given: 32
Re: Aviation
« Reply #382 on: May 29, 2021, 01:55:37 PM »
While we have a few very small very short range electric planes, and various small scale movements to some sort of biofuels, it is BAU+ at Airbus.

The slow return of (especially international) air travel is my last hope for CO2 emissions in 2021 to be below 2019 emissions, and that may still be true. But after that - '22, '23 who knows?

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/may/27/airbus-tells-suppliers-to-gear-up-for-record-production-on-bestselling-jets
Airbus tells suppliers to gear up for record production on bestselling jets

Aerospace firm predicts strong but belated Covid recovery amid move to raise A320 output to 64 per month by 2023

Quote
Airbus has told suppliers it is planning for record production of its bestselling planes within two years in a sign of the manufacturer’s hopes for a belated but strong recovery for aviation from the coronavirus pandemic.

The European manufacturer said on Thursday it would increase production of A320 single-aisle aircraft to 45 per month by October, up from 40.

However, it said suppliers should be ready for a rate of 64 per month by the spring of 2023 for the A320, which is well suited to short-haul travel that is expected to bounce back the quickest. That would beat its previous highest rate target of 63, and would be followed by 70 per month at the start of 2024 and as high as 75 by 2025.

The aerospace industry has endured months of weak demand for planes during the pandemic as airline customers cut back on orders as their revenues dried up. Airbus and its US rival, Boeing, together cut tens of thousands of jobs worldwide as demand plummeted.
_________________________________
ps: Bloomberg news said one of the drivers of higher crude prices in the US was the market's belief in an upcoming strong increase in demand from the airline industry
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

Tor Bejnar

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3935
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 684
  • Likes Given: 545
Re: Aviation
« Reply #383 on: May 29, 2021, 05:32:51 PM »
Belfast by blimp: Airship service to offer eco-friendly five-hour flights from Liverpool

Airships for European city hops could cut flying’s carbon dioxide emissions by 90%
Wed, May 26, 2021
Quote
...
Hybrid Air Vehicles, or HAV, which has developed a new environmentally friendly airship 84 years after the Hindenburg disaster, has today named a string of routes it hopes to serve from 2025.

The routes for the 100-passenger Airlander 10 airship include Barcelona to Palma de Mallorca in 4½ hours. The company says the journey would take roughly the same time as aeroplane travel once getting to and from the airport was taken into account, but would generate a much smaller carbon footprint. HAV says the CO2 footprint per passenger on its airship would be about 4.5kg, compared with about 53kg via jet plane.

    This isn’t a luxury product. It’s a practical solution to challenges posed by the climate crisis

Belfast to Liverpool would take just over 5¼ hours; other routes planned include Oslo to Stockholm, in 6½ hours; and Seattle to Vancouver, in just over 4 hours.
...
The article ends:
Quote
...
The €30 million Airlander 10 prototype undertook six test flights, some of which ended badly. It crashed in 2016 on its second test flight, after a successful 30-minute maiden trip. HAV tweeted at the time: “Airlander sustained damage on landing during today’s flight. No damage was sustained mid-air or as a result of a telegraph pole as reported.”

The aircraft, which can take off and land from almost any flat surface, reached heights of 7,000ft (2,100m) and speeds of up to 50 knots, or about 90kmph, during its final tests. The company has had UK government backing and grants from the European Union.
Starting in 2025, apparently...  :(
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things.

oren

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 7135
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2659
  • Likes Given: 2481
Re: Aviation
« Reply #384 on: May 29, 2021, 05:46:38 PM »
In the comment section someone wrote:
"5.5 hours between Belfast and Liverpool? Distance as the crow/airship flies is 145 miles, which implies a top speed of just over 26mph. Seems way to slow. At those speeds I cannot see this as being anything other then a novelty gimmick."
I would tend to agree.

Tor Bejnar

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3935
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 684
  • Likes Given: 545
Re: Aviation
« Reply #385 on: May 29, 2021, 05:57:02 PM »
Sceye, New Mexico consortium tests OpenRAN in the stratosphere for tribal broadband service
Quote
A Swiss high-altitude platforms (HAPS) company Sceye recently conducted a test flight of its sleek, silvery stratospheric blimp with the aim of covering rural and tribal areas of New Mexico with 100 Mbps-level speeds.

Sceye’s HAPS achieved an elevation of 64,000 feet during a two-hour test flight last Wednesday, and the company also recently conducted tests to determine the range of its Open RAN-based LTE coverage. Sceye said that its tech allows OpenRAN-based LTE to reach a range of up to 140 kilometers — which it claims is “a long-range record in LTE OpenRAN architecture” — and 40 km beyond what standard LTE would be expected to achieve. It says that it will be able to cover “areas as wide as 27,000 square miles with high-speed broadband for all users of fixed and mobile, carving a path forward to providing true equitable access.”

“We view the successful flight and the record setting data connection as a significant milestone for our technology; one that could dissolve the rural broadband barrier,” said Sceye CEO Mikkel Vestergaard Frandsen. Frandsen founded Sceye in 2014 to focus on the possibilities of solar-powered HAPS for providing broadband service as well as improving environmental and disaster monitoring.
...
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 19425
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 863
  • Likes Given: 326
Re: Aviation
« Reply #386 on: May 29, 2021, 06:35:26 PM »
A Swiss high-altitude platforms (HAPS) company Sceye recently conducted a test flight of its sleek, silvery stratospheric blimp with the aim of covering rural and tribal areas of New Mexico with 100 Mbps-level speeds.
...

Google/Alphabet tried this using balloons, but shut it down earlier this year.  Satellite internet will soon make these efforts obsolete.

Loon LLC - Wikipedia
Quote
Loon LLC was an Alphabet Inc. subsidiary working on providing Internet access to rural and remote areas. The company used high-altitude balloons in the stratosphere at an altitude of 18 km (11 mi) to 25 km (16 mi) to create an aerial wireless network with up to 1 Mbit/s speeds. A reference to the balloons used, Project Loon began as a research and development project by X (formerly Google X) in 2011, but later spun out into a separate company in July 2018. In January 2021, it was announced that the company would be shut down.
...
On January 21, 2021, it was announced that Loon would be shut down. In his announcement, Teller said "Sadly, despite the team’s groundbreaking technical achievements over the last 9 years […] the road to commercial viability has proven much longer and riskier than hoped." WIRED points out the fact, as one of the reason of the shutdown, that the availability of the internet increased from 75% to 93% in the last 10 years in the area without stable connection. Its pilot service in Kenya would be shut down in March 2021 but the company said it would pledge $10 million to support nonprofits and businesses in Kenya dedicated to "connectivity, Internet, entrepreneurship and education."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loon_LLC
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Tor Bejnar

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3935
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 684
  • Likes Given: 545
Re: Aviation
« Reply #387 on: May 29, 2021, 06:47:05 PM »
I still wonder why airships aren't being used to transport the large (largest) wind turbines into rural places.  A zeppelin can carry 50 tons (says Google) [55,300 kg] and can go 'anywhere' (unless the winds are chaotic). Also,
Quote
A 1.5 (MW) wind turbine of a type frequently seen in the United States has a tower 80 meters (260 ft) high. The rotor assembly (blades and hub) weighs 22,000 kilograms (48,000 lb). The nacelle, which contains the generator, weighs 52,000 kilograms (115,000 lb).
Looks to me like a match made in heaven!

People have said to me, "But wind turbines are erected in windy places!"  1) Few places are 'always' windy, and 2) turbine blades are long!  I've seen them being trucked across West Texas, and once, around a rural dirt road's right-hand turn -the blade was held well over the roadside fences (cutting the corner, as it were) while the lead and trailing 'wheel sets' followed the road.

If you don't want to use the airship as a stable platform to aid construction, just use it to deliver the long pieces.

I'm not alone (although see date on article): 
Turbine makers look for airship solutions

22 January 2018 by Craig Richard

WORLDWIDE: Vestas and Siemens Gamesa are jointly looking to the skies for an alternative to costly and difficult road transportation of turbine components over long distances.

The article includes saying one airship in trials (in 2013) could carry 250 tonnes "[b ]ut current operational designs are currently only capable of lifting cargo of between two and three tonnes" - I wonder what's going on!
Quote
...
He confirmed the cargo payloads of airships currently in operation — but suggested an upgrade enabling a payload of between 15 and 20 tonnes would be possible if a stable supply of customers would emerge and provide certainty to anxious potential investors.

"Demand has been a problem that has plagued the industry," he says. "The people who might buy, or at least invest in, airships are uncertain about demand, so the possibility of having customers is marvellous."
...
Ah!  Maybe some government involvement would help?  (Are you listening, Biden and the infrastructure folks?)
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 19425
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 863
  • Likes Given: 326
Re: Aviation
« Reply #388 on: May 29, 2021, 07:47:26 PM »
Quote
I still wonder why airships aren't being used to transport the large (largest) wind turbines into rural places.  A zeppelin can carry 50 tons (says Google) [55,300 kg] and can go 'anywhere' (unless the winds are chaotic).

Most airships in use today are small, for niche applications like the Goodyear blimp.  A larger airship would also require unique airfield facilities for storage and maintenance.  The distance between the blade factory and the turbine field is another consideration.  Road transportation may be tricky, but faster, and less prone to weather problems.  The aerodynamic shape of a blade would also make for hazardous flying.  Turbine blades are designed to move as air flows past it....
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

NeilT

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2507
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 184
  • Likes Given: 18
Re: Aviation
« Reply #389 on: May 29, 2021, 08:10:54 PM »
Zeppelins were hydrogen, helium would carry significantly less.

I had some thoughts on this and reached out to a few companies about a variation on the theme.  Radio silence as usual.

Zeppelins used magnesium alloy superstructure which added to the pyrotechnics when they went up.  Carbon fibre would allow or a much heavier load to be carried. Also graphene envelopes for the lift gas would reduce gas loss and increase load capacity.

There are other variations on the theme which would increase load capacity and reduce the danger of leaks. Sadly nobody is doing the lateral thinking right now.

Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

Robert A. Heinlein

Tor Bejnar

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3935
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 684
  • Likes Given: 545
Re: Aviation
« Reply #390 on: May 29, 2021, 08:48:31 PM »
A Zeppelin is a type of rigid airship, not a lift material requirement.
Quote
Modern zeppelins are held aloft by the inert gas helium, eliminating the danger of combustion illustrated by the Hindenburg.
Three (new) Zeppelin NTs entered service between 2014 and 2018.
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things.

NeilT

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2507
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 184
  • Likes Given: 18
Re: Aviation
« Reply #391 on: May 29, 2021, 11:27:57 PM »
Hmm, missed that. I'll have to go look it up.
[update]

Zeppelin NT, semi rigid, 12 passengers or 1.9t cargo.

Helium airships are very close to neutral buoyancy with very little lift capability.

If we truly wanted to go airship hydrogen would need to be a choice. Or something else but that is what I was trying to talk to some companies about.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2021, 11:34:09 PM by NeilT »
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

Robert A. Heinlein

blu_ice

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 146
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 36
  • Likes Given: 112
Re: Aviation
« Reply #392 on: May 30, 2021, 12:01:53 AM »
There has been attempts to build a cargo airship such as Cargolifter in the early 2000’s.   https://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/cargolifter/

It’s probably a chicken and egg problem. Heavy lifting airship requires significant investment and special infrastructure to design, build and operate. It’s a high risk and questionable return business. If one existed there probably was a market for it.

Like the Cold War Antonov cargo planes. They have a niche market but new ones will never be built, let alone designed from scratch.

NeilT

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2507
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 184
  • Likes Given: 18
Re: Aviation
« Reply #393 on: May 30, 2021, 12:08:32 AM »
That depends where you want to go with it.

Certainly it is not going to replace either general aviation or sea shipping.
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

Robert A. Heinlein

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 19425
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 863
  • Likes Given: 326
Re: Aviation
« Reply #394 on: May 30, 2021, 12:12:06 AM »
New NOVA program on different electric aircraft in various stages of development, and the air traffic control requirements that having numerous new craft in the sky will bring. Includes some hybrids and hydrogen aircraft. The need to reduce emissions due to health effects and climate change is addressed.

Great Electric Airplane Race | NOVA | PBS
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/video/great-electric-airplane-race/

(Keep an eye out for the brief shot of a GLOVIS car transport ship at the port in San Francisco, with a shipyard full of... Teslas? ;) )
« Last Edit: May 30, 2021, 12:17:53 AM by Sigmetnow »
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

SteveMDFP

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1912
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 412
  • Likes Given: 26
Re: Aviation
« Reply #395 on: May 30, 2021, 09:57:37 PM »
Zeppelins were hydrogen, helium would carry significantly less.

Not very much difference.  Since hydrogen exists as diatomic molecules, the molecular weight of hydrogen and helium are quite close.  Source on the internet say "Two grams (one mole) of hydrogen will displace 29.0 g of air and have a lifting power of 27.0 g. Thus, helium should have 25.0/27.0 = 0.926 or 92.6% the lifting power of hydrogen."
https://aapt.scitation.org/doi/abs/10.1119/1.2342311

oren

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 7135
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2659
  • Likes Given: 2481
Re: Aviation
« Reply #396 on: May 30, 2021, 11:55:02 PM »
It appears the issue of large scale balloons is quite difficult to solve. Reading the link below, it appears it's either hydrogen or unsolvable. I believe electric planes or synthetic fuels made with spare renewable energy are much more promising solutions.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifting_gas

Quote
Hydrogen has several disadvantages:

Hydrogen is extremely flammable. Some countries have banned the use of hydrogen as a lift gas for commercial vehicles but it is allowed for recreational free ballooning in the US, UK and Germany. The Hindenburg disaster is frequently cited as an example of the safety risks posed by hydrogen. The high cost of helium (compared to hydrogen) has led researchers to re-investigate the safety issues of using hydrogen as a lift gas; with good engineering and good handling practices, the risks can be significantly reduced.
Because the hydrogen molecule is very small, it can easily diffuse through many materials such as latex, so that the balloon will deflate quickly. This is one reason that many hydrogen or helium filled balloons are constructed out of Mylar/BoPET.

Quote
A major advantage is that this gas is noncombustible. But the use of helium has some disadvantages, too:

The diffusion issue shared with Hydrogen (though, as Helium's molecular radius is smaller, it diffuses through more materials than Hydrogen).
Helium is expensive.
Although abundant in the universe, helium is very scarce on Earth. The only commercially viable reserves are a few natural gas wells, mostly in the US, that trapped it from the slow alpha decay of radioactive materials within Earth. By human standards helium is a non-renewable resource that cannot be practically manufactured from other materials. When released into the atmosphere, e.g., when a helium-filled balloon leaks or bursts, helium eventually escapes into space and is lost.

Tor Bejnar

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3935
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 684
  • Likes Given: 545
Re: Aviation
« Reply #397 on: May 31, 2021, 02:36:24 AM »
Quote
Great Electric Airplane Race | NOVA | PBS
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/video/great-electric-airplane-race/
Lots of different electric and hybrid airplanes.  Fascinating! (Mostly filmed with people wearing masks - rather dates it!)
Thanks, Sigmetnow.
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 19425
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 863
  • Likes Given: 326
Re: Aviation
« Reply #398 on: May 31, 2021, 02:49:33 AM »
Quote
Great Electric Airplane Race | NOVA | PBS
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/video/great-electric-airplane-race/
Lots of different electric and hybrid airplanes.  Fascinating! (Mostly filmed with people wearing masks - rather dates it!)
Thanks, Sigmetnow.

I note that more than once they say “filmed before the pandemic” when a segment shows people not wearing masks or social distancing.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

GrauerMausling

  • New ice
  • Posts: 49
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 26
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: Aviation
« Reply #399 on: May 31, 2021, 07:53:27 AM »


Not very much difference.  Since hydrogen exists as diatomic molecules, the molecular weight of hydrogen and helium are quite close.  Source on the internet say "Two grams (one mole) of hydrogen will displace 29.0 g of air and have a lifting power of 27.0 g. Thus, helium should have 25.0/27.0 = 0.926 or 92.6% the lifting power of hydrogen."
https://aapt.scitation.org/doi/abs/10.1119/1.2342311

Your mistake is, that the 'two grams (one mole) of hydrogen will displace 29.0 g of air' is already based on the molecule NOT the atom. So hydrogen for the aircraft has a lifting capacity which is double that of helium. H -> 1 H2 -> 2, He -> 4.