Forum Decorum

[bbr2315]

It was very easy to get banned by disagreeing politically with you.

Maybe it's like that in your mind, but I don't think it's a fair description of what's been going on during the past 7 years. Very rarely do I ban people directly. Most of the time I put them on moderation (which is more work), and after a while give them a second or even third chance. In fact, I think I've banned more people with whom I agreed politically, as I tend to agree with people who have the courage to express radical ideas, and these aren't ideal forum members most of the time (very combative, etc).

The fact that I wasn't stricter with those supporting neoliberal fantasies, or those who think in simplistic and divisive left-right terms, has also caused valued members to go look for greener pastures. JimD is a perfect example, but there are more.

Now you are bringing offtopic style moderation to the AGW forum, more specifically the C19 thread.  To  prove your point you would ban people, demote mods

I haven't banned absolutely anyone based on the C19 thread, and the 'demotion' was based on something else. In fact, I have stated many times that people need to separate my words on Arctic sea ice from my words on SARS-CoV-2, that they should not put me on a some pedestal, and that I don't care about being respected. What does annoy me, however, is when my words get twisted into things they are not, and I repeatedly get put in the same basket as fascist idiots like Bolsonaro.

Many times have my hands itched to ban those who support neoliberalism, those who cheer on wars and repeat warmongering propaganda, or those who believe their superior intelligence puts them above the subhuman rabble, but very rarely have I done so. I can remember banning bbr2234 because he completely disappointed me when he started spouting unoriginal Trumpian BS in the political threads.

To prove your point you would trash the whole board.

Even if that were true, I would trash the whole forum, except the Cryosphere part, which is the only thing making the ASIF valuable.

You are making up things about me just to keep cognitive dissonance from interfering with a coherent story in your head. You are portraying me as some kind of authoritarian bully who abuses his 'power', but a lot of that is projection. You are yourself what you say I am.

I take issue with this post because I don't think I spouted Trumpian nonsense. YES, Trump also does not like Ilhan Omar, but there is a valid reason to reject radical Islam, especially when it comes to representatives of this radical religion becoming elected within the US political system (and I believe all Western political systems). I would note that I also believe radical members of ANY religion have no place in government, but it is egregious that the left rallies around the radical Muslims due to the perceived "persecuted" status when the home countries of these people are literally jihadist hellholes where women are veiled and their genitals are mutilated and removed.

So embracing these ideals via protecting these politicians leads to the unraveling of western ideals / liberalism, and as we have seen, it also opens the door to radical far-right movements who prey on the dissatisfaction with aforementioned embrace (which is widespread).

Should Ilhan Omar have the right to wear a head scarf? Sure. But it represents an ideology that is completely antithetical to my own and that which is at the heart of both my culture and your own. And I reject radical Islam most fully and completely and I will not apologize for that.

I think I said something about her marrying her brother when the actual ban happened. Whether that is true or not I don't know, but I think it is important to explain my position here as it is not a "Trumpism" but a "defense of western ideals and liberal thought-ism". And I would argue the nefarious forces behind the media's embrace of Ilhan Omar's "victimhood" are the same that are promoting the COVID-is-the-end-of-the-world bullsh*t that is now destabilizing the mental health of billions while it will only directly kill a few million, maybe 10 (?) in the end. Sad, but not worth destroying the world over -- same as allowing Muslims to practice their faith, but not embracing the election of those who would wear their support for the political oppression of women as everyday garb, which was indeed a slippery slope to the situation we have now found ourselves in.

[igs]

Our leader supports Trump 👎🏻

When you hate those who hate, you are no better than the haters you hate...

Not true at all, even god was angry at times which does not mean that I believe in the old man with a beard, just saying that anger on morons, manipulators and stupid with a big mouth and a resilience to learn or consider other opinions is a just thing.

Without that kind of anger perhaps nazis would rule the world or soviet nomenklatura would.

We need a point to get angry to fight evil.

Further I would say that you show a good portion of anger yourself and hate is just a word to describe things we heavily dislike and this again could be discussed of course.

The level and fuse to be angry also depends on one's personality and often people who think fast and have lots of energy have to learn to hold things in check while the same applies to people with Dunning-Kruger Syndrom who simply don't get how far off they are.

The next level after anger/hate for me is condescense or feeling sorry that is condescending as well.
In real life that means to pull back and let them be, all hope lost. Should anyone complain that I tell them unwelcome things/truths I reason by saying that as long as I talk to them they can see it as an interest and hope thing = something positive. They should more start to worry once I get quiet.

For me a lot depends on the arguments someone can bring up. If the reasons are badly motivated or heavily flawed without showing a tiny bit of readiness to consider the opposite side that makes me lose patience (which again is a flaw somehow, depending a bit on persistence) and get exitet, angry and would perhaps say that I hate it while I rarely hate people as a whole, more often their attitude or impact on peace of mind or wellbeing in general, like for example the Donald who makes so many things worse that impact all of us that I really despise the guy.

Hope that's sufficiently well explained and hinted at the complexity and range of possible interpretations.

I personally do not find this thread stupid at all because there are kinds of conflicts that are fact and if they exist, to talk with each other is certainly a good thing, if possible, of course, without personal attacks below the belt line.

[Archimid]

that they should not put me on a some pedestal,

The pedestal is created by the fact you are the "administrator". There is nothing you can do about it. If you hold the power of deleting and banning an opposite in a debate, but the other does not, then you have undue influence in the debate. You don't have to execute the power to use it. It always exists. That applies to the person you are debating with and applies even more to third parties that are reading.

You are Neven, Administrator and creator of ASIF. Nicer people than me will defer to that authority by default. Truth will be attributed to your statements out of expectations not evidence. It has very little to do with your authority in other topics. That will get in the way of truth discovery and can be exploited to drive a message.

Forgetting that is the quickest route to an echo chamber and boring discussions.

Even if that were true, I would trash the whole forum, except the Cryosphere part, which is the only thing making the ASIF valuable.

"Even if that were true"? You trashed and keep trashing your own forum yet you claim you don't because you only trashed part of it? Please.

There are some really good threads in the AGW subforum and it complements the Cryosphere tremendously.  As climate change gets worse AGW only becomes more relevant.

[HapHazard]

I agree, Archimid. Perhaps we could use a new term: Administrator Privilege ? heh At any rate, it is a real thing, to which I can personally attest, having been on both sides of that coin.

expectationsnot

I honestly like this new word.

Igs, I don't think this thread is stupid. I felt it was getting stupid for a bit there, but the mods have since snipped (thankfully) some uncalled-for direct personal attacks.

Driving habits and posting online: 2 things which are quite alike, in that we often act in a way which we wouldn't in another theatre. Must be a sociology paper in there somewhere!

[igs]

I agree, Archimid. Perhaps we could use a new term: Administrator Privilege ? heh At any rate, it is a real thing, to which I can personally attest, having been on both sides of that coin.

expectationsnot

I honestly like this new word.

Igs, I don't think this thread is stupid. I felt it was getting stupid for a bit there, but the mods have since snipped (thankfully) some uncalled-for direct personal attacks.

Driving habits and posting online: 2 things which are quite alike, in that we often act in a way which we wouldn't in another theatre. Must be a sociology paper in there somewhere!

To avoid a misunderstanding, i also wrote that I don't find it stupid, did go and check for typos though and none found. 

here comes my quoted text from my own post:

I personally do not find this thread stupid at all because there are kinds of conflicts that are fact and if they exist, to talk with each other is certainly a good thing, if possible, of course, without personal attacks below the belt line.

[sidd]

Re: "Truth will be attributed to your statements out of expectations not evidence"

Do tell ? I see many people disagree with Neven all the time.

sidd

[Steven]

Signal-to-noise ratio is quite high in the melting season thread.

I think it has improved recently, as usual at this time of year.  It's an annual pattern: in June and July the melt season thread is a mess, due to a very loud minority of folks who think every year that the September extent will be a new record low by a huge margin.  Next, at some point in July or August it becomes obvious that that isn't going to happen, and then those folks disappear or change their tone and the signal-to-noise ratio improves.

[nanning]

These days when I have made a post, I am experiencing anxiety because kassy might cut (parts of) my post without consultation or explanation (or apology). To ameliorate that, I am now saving the texts in a separate file just in case.
I have seen Flori's post this morning which has been partially cut and I am curious about what he wrote since he often writes interesting stuff imo.
I could almost say that my recent quantum and conspiracy posts are in superposition.

Just to share my feelings. This is not an attack on kassy. A critique of his moderation, yes, but no biggie, just a bit more work.

[Freegrass]

Our leader supports Trump 👎🏻

When you hate those who hate, you are no better than the haters you hate...

Not true at all, even god was angry at times which does not mean that I believe in the old man with a beard, just saying that anger on morons, manipulators and stupid with a big mouth and a resilience to learn or consider other opinions is a just thing.

Without that kind of anger perhaps nazis would rule the world or soviet nomenklatura would.

We need a point to get angry to fight evil.

Further I would say that you show a good portion of anger yourself and hate is just a word to describe things we heavily dislike and this again could be discussed of course.

The level and fuse to be angry also depends on one's personality and often people who think fast and have lots of energy have to learn to hold things in check while the same applies to people with Dunning-Kruger Syndrom who simply don't get how far off they are.

The next level after anger/hate for me is condescense or feeling sorry that is condescending as well.
In real life that means to pull back and let them be, all hope lost. Should anyone complain that I tell them unwelcome things/truths I reason by saying that as long as I talk to them they can see it as an interest and hope thing = something positive. They should more start to worry once I get quiet.

For me a lot depends on the arguments someone can bring up. If the reasons are badly motivated or heavily flawed without showing a tiny bit of readiness to consider the opposite side that makes me lose patience (which again is a flaw somehow, depending a bit on persistence) and get exitet, angry and would perhaps say that I hate it while I rarely hate people as a whole, more often their attitude or impact on peace of mind or wellbeing in general, like for example the Donald who makes so many things worse that impact all of us that I really despise the guy.

Hope that's sufficiently well explained and hinted at the complexity and range of possible interpretations.

I personally do not find this thread stupid at all because there are kinds of conflicts that are fact and if they exist, to talk with each other is certainly a good thing, if possible, of course, without personal attacks below the belt line.

After reading this again, I actually gave this a +1, because I completely agree with you. Except for one thing, and that is that you think that anger and hate are the same thing. I don't think anger and hate are the same. Just like love and like aren't the same thing.

You can be angry at things, but that doesn't mean you hate. Hate is a poison that slowly erodes our morals. Hate is the opposite of love, and love means being able to forgive, and accept the fact that bad shit happens.

Hate is a destructive force. Anger is an emotion out of caring. You can't get angry if you don't care, and you need to be able to love to care. So those who hate don't care. Those that get angry are also filled with love...

[ajouis]

(When I recreated my account 2 days ago, I did it with the intention of explaining more thoroughly my reason for leaving this site. The comment did not pass moderation and I am fine with that. Below is a condensed version.)

1. I was attracted to this site in 2013 by its grounding in science.
2. I am dismayed by persons on this thread for whom I had developed a great deal of respect who have abandoned all science in arguing how inconsequential this disease is.
3. This has caused me to question in a very personal way why I come here.

I hope this comment passes muster.


<I think you are wrong on count 2. Neven chose a category in his description. The actual detail was not really important because it was more about the media in general. One problem is that we make a division when someone foregrounds an issue and then people focus on the less important part as intended by the poster.

If we would all be on voice comms you can ask quick questions to clarify. Here we can´t but we can ask slow questions before jumping to conclusions.

This is a general point not for SH per se.
kassy>

Thank you Kassy for allowing this comment to post.

As for point 2, I am dismayed.

I did not single out Neven and, if I had the time or inclination, (I don't) I could go back into this thread and find numerous persons who have dismissed the data and argued for a ridiculously low IFR and dismissed the science that points to serious health problems for many who recover from the virus, the kinds of health problems you never find from persons who have recovered from the flu.

At any rate, the three numbered points above stand. They accurately and succinctly summarize exactly where I am. While I suspect this is my last comment on this site, I will not hastily delete the account this time. This will allow me to reconsider this decision in the future.

Everyone - Take care and stay safe.


<Another general comment: The main interest for this site is the Arctic ice. You can ignore huge parts of this site and still do things. Or even read AGWiG/C and just ignore covid. kassy>

To me this is clear overreach, being a mod doesn’t allow to hijack good faith level headed comments because they disagree with another mod edit, Oren, which I would consider the gold standard in snipping and editing, only use this to correct behaviour that is moddable and to explain the etiquette for modding not to happen again, whereas this doesn’t qualify to a reasonable criteria and advance the mod interest rather than the community, albeit most likely not on purpose.

I think it is a shame Blumenkraft quit modding, and given the circumstances it happened in, may I suggest for EVERYONE to exercise self restraint, even admins, and also keep in mind more generally that your info might be false or supplied by people who can be intoxicated, mentally unwell or otherwise partial sources, which should be welcomed with open arms on the forum but engaged in a constructive way that doesn’t lend too much credence to hearsay and try to stave off any episode and not play into it.


I am now for guidelines because the complexification of social relationships, especially on non cryoshpere threads, necessitates them for the mods to do a clean job, though I might be biased coming from a civil law nation. This should include safeguarding guidelines on mental health and inclusivity. the mods are not at fault, it is just the natural course of a mini human society.

[blumenkraft]

I think it is a shame Blumenkraft quit modding

Hope you understand. Sorry for letting you down.

I am now for guidelines

That was my very first comment when Neven looked for mods. I asked for a set of rules. It was widely dismissed back then.

Rules are good. You have rules everywhere - in any social setting. IMHO it's pretty out of touch to think you can have a forum on the internet for basically anyone in the world to reach, but can do it without rules.

Just saying...

[HapHazard]

No matter how many rules you have, there's always fuzzy subjective things you will run into, as often as ever, which always lead to disagreements & upset people. No matter what. Been there, done that.

Just sayin'.

[Freegrass]

There should be one rule vigorously enforced, and that is that other members are ALWAYS off topic. Without this rule, things will keep getting out of control. Members should never become the topic.

[blumenkraft]

LOL

[be cause]

LOL too ...

[Freegrass]

Please guys, can you take that to email or personal message ?

I prefer to do it out in the open. I've received news that blumenkraft is very active on the PM front, trying to build a movement against the ASIF's Trump/Bolsonaro/Stalin, which would be me. This is apparently caused by my criticizing the wider implications of SARS-CoV-2, and so I figured I might as well raise it in the thread in question.

Just a reminder what started the conversation...

[blumenkraft]

I've received news that blumenkraft is very active on the PM front, trying to build a movement against the ASIF's

And from whom did he 'receive' this esily disprovable smear?

[Freegrass]

I've received news that blumenkraft is very active on the PM front, trying to build a movement against the ASIF's

And from whom did he 'receive' this esily disprovable smear?

That's a fine example of how you manipulate, distort, lie, and turn people against each other.
You cut off the answer to your own question.

Trump/Bolsonaro/Stalin, which would be me. This is apparently caused by my criticizing the wider implications of SARS-CoV-2, and so I figured I might as well raise it in the thread in question.

But yes, I told him about you, and then Neven did his own research. So blame it on me if you want. Blame the one who's trying to do right by the forum, and never question your own actions.

You actually sound a lot like Trump, blaming others to distract from your own failures...

[blumenkraft]

I notice you didn't answer my (legit) question.

[Freegrass]

I notice you didn't answer my (legit) question.

Is it a smear when it was is true?

I noticed what you were doing to this forum, and I contacted the boss about it. The boss then checked my claims, and found them to be true.

So all I did was for the better of this forum, while you're still doing what you do best; lie, and turn people against each other with those lies so this forum gets destroyed.

[Neven]

No matter how many rules you have, there's always fuzzy subjective things you will run into, as often as ever, which always lead to disagreements & upset people. No matter what. Been there, done that.

Just sayin'.

I agree. Rules can easily become restrictive, something for trolls to play with, and before you know it, every member needs a lawyer.

A certain amount of civility in the sea ice threads, some occasional cursing, a moderator to keep things short and on-topic, and this Forum is doing just fine.

[blumenkraft]

The boss then checked my claims, and found them to be true.

I that true, Neven?

[Neven]

Yes, I had seen enough to realize it would be better for the forum and for you to no longer be moderator, and was happy to see you graciously accepting my proposal.

[blumenkraft]

Hold on, are you saying you are reading my PMs?

OK, then. Go ahead. Show the PMs where i contact others to "build a movement".

[Freegrass]

Hold on, are you saying you are reading my PMs?

OK, then. Go ahead. Show the PMs where i contact others to "build a movement".

You know very well he can't read private messages. But he is able to see the log files, and that tells him who you are contacting. And I assume some of Neven's friends on this forum then told him what you were doing.

[kassy]

Re: Reply #1209

Too bad you read it that way. All the in post comments are about the meta discussion.

[blumenkraft]

1) I want to know if i'm spied on by Neven.

2) FG is full of shit. Those are unfounded accusations. There are no such PMs!

[Tom_Mazanec]

If all you can see is the number of PMs and not what they say, and b says he is not using them for an anti-Neven campaign then I suspect b just likes to PM.

[blumenkraft]

I've received news that blumenkraft is very active on the PM front, trying to build a movement

I want to see proof of these accusations. If you can't deliver proof, i want you to distance yourself from this bullshit, Neven. FG keeps accusing me of things i never did. I want it to stop!

[blumenkraft]

Another member lost.

Good bye, Pmt111500.

[Neven]

I can't read PMs, I don't know how to read logs (not interested in either). As far as I am concerned, the situation is solved. But if you both (FG and BK) feel a need to keep bickering, by all means, continue. Maybe take it to PM?

[Neven]

I've received news that blumenkraft is very active on the PM front, trying to build a movement

I want to see proof of these accusations. If you can't deliver proof, i want you to distance yourself from this bullshit, Neven. FG keeps accusing me of things i never did. I want it to stop!

I can't deliver proof, because it's confidential. FG, let it go.

[blumenkraft]

I can't deliver proof, because it's confidential. FG, let it go.

Are you fucking kidding me? Just claiming shit and that's it? I have to live with the unfounded alligations? Because why??

[blumenkraft]

As far as I am concerned, the situation is solved.

You shit-talk me, allow FG to shit-talk me and when i say i want proof of these unfounded accusations you say that.

Classy, Neven. Superb.

[Tom_Mazanec]

There is a lot of bullying on this forum. I came this close to leaving here in my first few weeks here, but a forum member or two stood up for me, and a PM from Neven convinced me to stay. So I am sympathetic to members who get accusations hurled at them. If you can’t document your accusations then please cease and desist.

[Neven]

Another member lost.

Good bye, Pmt111500.

I don't understand why people delete their account when they leave. But it's still better than people deleting all their comments, which has happened as well.

[Tom_Mazanec]

What annoys me about that is that as a result I can’t edit my posts after a couple days now. There are a few accidental duplicates in my posts to the Good Music thread I would like to edit out.

[blumenkraft]

Neven, you changed the setting. The forum would delete posts when someone deleted their account and you changed it.

Don't you remember?

Why do people delete their accounts? Well, maybe they just don't want to deal with the harassing and smearing that happens when they openly disagree with you? Deleting makes a similar statement but they can't get repercussions anymore.

[ajouis]

when I said self restraint by EVERYONE, I wasn’t kidding, that includes you Neven, as the admin, sure you’re fallible, like all of us, however remember this is a public forum and how you are portraying yourself, would you be proud if a family member saw what you just said? or prominent members of your community for that matter? To reflect poorly on yourself and diminish your office is something beyond a thing you can just not care about, this is shallow and deep down you know you care, we all care, like when other things happened in this forum. Please consider using a tone and content appropriate for your position, it is not just because of trust from the asif members but because you will regret your newfound public persona because of private beef, should I remind this is how future generations will remember you? They may even take cyber museum tours of the forum, given the topic, so rise to the moment and self moderate, everything you say is here forever, it’s the internet after all.

To Freegrass, I don’t think anyone is gaslighting you, if they are, sure that would be bad and shouldn’t be allowed on the forum, otherwise please seek help like talking to closed ones about how you feel or professionals, I have family who has similar thoughts, unsubstantiated, and it gets sour for everyone and alienates you.

To Kessy, hope this was an I am sorry you feel this way comment, I am optimistic so I will say it is, not an arrogant/sarcastic one

[be cause]

Thank you ajouis . you are a breath of fresh air . b.c.

[uniquorn]

perhaps it's time to remove forum decorum from the info centre

[BornFromTheVoid]

perhaps it's time to remove forum decorum from the info centre

Agreed. If I'd visited this site and checked out this thread due to it's apparent popularity, I think it unlikely I'd visit again, let alone register.

[Freegrass]

To Freegrass, I don’t think anyone is gaslighting you, if they are, sure that would be bad and shouldn’t be allowed on the forum, otherwise please seek help like talking to closed ones about how you feel or professionals, I have family who has similar thoughts, unsubstantiated, and it gets sour for everyone and alienates you.

What thoughts? Are you saying I'm sick and delusional?

[be cause]

Quote from: Freegrass to Blumenkraft Today at 03:48:48 PM
Stop it now on the public forum. Don't you understand others - who you thought were your "friends" - have told on you to Neven? And Neven has the respect for them not to reveal their names, or what they said. If he did, you would start attacking them immediately.

Just accept you fucked up, and move on without causing more people to delete their accounts.

You were a moderator, not the one who should control the conversation.
So give it up!

[Freegrass]

Quote from: Freegrass to Blumenkraft Today at 03:48:48 PM
Stop it now on the public forum. Don't you understand others - who you thought were your "friends" - have told on you to Neven? And Neven has the respect for them not to reveal their names, or what they said. If he did, you would start attacking them immediately.

Just accept you fucked up, and move on without causing more people to delete their accounts.

You were a moderator, not the one who should control the conversation.
So give it up!

Why did you post that? To prove that I'm right? That Blum does share private conversations with other members? What else has he shared with you and everyone else that I told him in private?

Or did you post it to prove that I'm actually listening to Neven and trying to help the forum?

[ajouis]

Freegrass, I didn't say that

[blumenkraft]

That Blum does share private conversations with other members?

I reported your post to the moderator with the following text:

Nice, guess who PMed me.

I want this to stop! I didn't do what they are accusing me of. This shit is psychological warfare. They try to drive me crazy and with my heavy migraine today i'm sad to say it's working.

I'm free to do that!

I ask you again to stop PMing me.

[be cause]

I did it so that Neven can confirm that this was how he gained the evidence that made him believe you and not Blumenkraft . As Donald trump could say 'the truth must lie somewhere' .
  .. and Blumenkraft deserves an answer .   b.c.

[Neven]

Agreed. If I'd visited this site and checked out this thread due to it's apparent popularity, I think it unlikely I'd visit again, let alone register.

Absolutely right. Sorry for not thinking about it myself.

Freegrass, I suggested taking it to PM with BK, unless he doesn't want that, of course. As far as I am concerned, the case is closed. I'd suggest everyone to watch the ice.

[John_The_Elder]

I would like to recommend a 72 hour cease fire for all parties involved. No posts, no replies and no PMs. If you want to resume hostilities, there will be one member less at this site.
JTE