Forum Decorum

[Pmt111500]

"AGW and Other Risks to Humanity"

No. I was surprised to see the COVID thread was allowed to the consequences of AGW-section. There is no link between the two.
If the moderators allow all sorts of imaginary catastrophes to be discussed among the real threat of AGW this turns into a forum I don't want to inhabit. The scientific content will suffer by association to such crap. There are prepper forums for discussing these. Please no. At least keep it out of AGW-parts. COVID-thread  is quite a concrete one and thus could stay, though I wish some posters used some critique of their sources there too.

[KiwiGriff]

If you look  Phoenix there are plenty of threads about collapse and the ways it could happen.
Some filed under the rest are.
 Re: AI - Another way to end
Human Stupidity (Human Mental Illness)
Are you hoping for / and or expecting, a global civilisational collapse?
Preparations for Potential Societal Collapse
Europe - Collapse dynamics
How what we do today can follow us for many generations.
 Learning How to Die in the Anthropocene

[blumenkraft]

Hello Neven,

Wouldn't it be an Idea to create a new section Forum>>Off-topic>>Coronavirus and to put there all the related topics (masks, Covid-19, Global recession...)

Regards,

Etienne

I thought about this a few days ago. Even though COVID-19 isn't a consequence of AGW, I still decided to keep it in that section, because, like AGW, it's a consequence of our current global system. For the same reason I put the 'Lessons from COVID-19' thread in the 'policy and solutions' section, because the policies and solutions to this pandemic overlap with those for AGW (I would even argue they have the same prerequisites, ie conditions in which those policies and solutions would have a chance of working).

The mask stuff is pretty much off-topic everywhere, and hence fits best in 'the rest'. I've always considered 'the rest' to be the off-topic section.

[nanning]

edit: oops, I missed page 13. Posting anyway because it might help.

Phoenix, there are several threads that touch on the topic of collapse (civilisation & ecosystems/biosphere).
Here is a list of threads I've found via the search function in the "consequences" subthread of "AGW in general". I wish this will inform you and help you decide.
Forum members can start new threads and that has happened a lot in the past without a good general plan. e.g. The consequences thread is fractured and with little organisation imo. So it is not always easy to find the right thread but I would advise against opening new threads if not necessary. Note: The science threads are only for academic science.
Good luck.

Prepping for collapse:
  https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2799.msg232130.html#msg232130
Collapse - rigour, science and logic
  https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,231.msg4709.html#msg4709
Ecosystem service collapse:
  https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2428.msg183794.html#msg183794
Limits to Growth predicts collapse in 2015:
  https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1217.msg233320.html#msg233320

[Neven]

Meanwhile, Neven's bars of ultimate authority was never an issue, and he's a regular poster. How people handle change is amusing.

Removed me own bars as well. They never showed up for me.

[Freegrass]

I wish people would stop with personal attacks like this. They are unbecoming. And perhaps should be moderated.

I agree! I've been posting on the message board from Investors Hub for over 10 years now, and "No Personal Attacks" is a hardcore rule over there. Messages that violate that rule get deleted almost immediately. and this keeps the arguments on topic.

I've noticed that post don't get deleted here, but get edited. Why is that? Doesn't that create an unnecessary risk of discussion and disruption? Why not just delete messages that violate the TOS? And when members don't agree with the deletion, they can argue for a review in a private message to the moderator. I think this will end a lot of unnecessary off topic debates, no?

This is the TOS from iHub. Maybe the new moderators can find some inspiration in it?
https://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/terms.aspx

[Tom_Mazanec]

"AGW and Other Risks to Humanity"

No. I was surprised to see the COVID thread was allowed to the consequences of AGW-section. There is no link between the two.
If the moderators allow all sorts of imaginary catastrophes to be discussed among the real threat of AGW this turns into a forum I don't want to inhabit. The scientific content will suffer by association to such crap. There are prepper forums for discussing these. Please no. At least keep it out of AGW-parts. COVID-thread  is quite a concrete one and thus could stay, though I wish some posters used some critique of their sources there too.

This was a spinoff of the pathogen thread on the AGW consequence forum, so I put it there. Same with its spinoff, on the recession. Maybe I should have posted it in "The Rest"?

[Pmt111500]

"AGW and Other Risks to Humanity"

No. I was surprised to see the COVID thread was allowed to the consequences of AGW-section. There is no link between the two.
If the moderators allow all sorts of imaginary catastrophes to be discussed among the real threat of AGW this turns into a forum I don't want to inhabit. The scientific content will suffer by association to such crap. There are prepper forums for discussing these. Please no. At least keep it out of AGW-parts. COVID-thread  is quite a concrete one and thus could stay, though I wish some posters used some critique of their sources there too.

This was a spinoff of the pathogen thread on the AGW consequence forum, so I put it there. Same with its spinoff, on the recession. Maybe I should have posted it in "The Rest"?

Though call, that one. The discussion has been mostly scientific and based on speedily made papers and the consequences-section has been more relaxed and not too scientific. Good of you to inform the rest of us so early.

[Phoenix]

"AGW and Other Risks to Humanity"

No. I was surprised to see the COVID thread was allowed to the consequences of AGW-section. There is no link between the two.
If the moderators allow all sorts of imaginary catastrophes to be discussed among the real threat of AGW this turns into a forum I don't want to inhabit. The scientific content will suffer by association to such crap. There are prepper forums for discussing these. Please no. At least keep it out of AGW-parts. COVID-thread  is quite a concrete one and thus could stay, though I wish some posters used some critique of their sources there too.

Personally, I'm just looking for a logical hierarchy to follow.

It seems unnatural for a community with an emphasis on a threat to humanity in the form of AGW to not discuss other threats to humanity. This community has clearly evolved to allow discussion of those other threats.

In order to grow and adapt and maintain a coherent structure, the community might benefit from occasionally tweaking the structure. I think adding a subsection for non-AGW threats in the larger AGW section might be the most elegant solution. Putting discussion of non-AGW threats in "The Rest" might also be a good idea.

fyi - I came here because people were introducing Covid-19 into the discussion on the "When will arctic go ice free" thread and I wondered where was the most appropriate place on the forum for that discussion to continue. I didn't know the answer so I came here for guidance.

[be cause]

hi Pmt111500 , to some dealing with COVID-19 , AGW may seem to be the 'imaginary catastrophe' . The moderators have inherited the forum as it is , and a huge amount of what appears in 'consequences' are not direct consequences of AGW and even less related to Arctic Sea Ice . I would rather most things remain as they are , where they are , unless and until a major reorganization is planned and executed . b.c

[Pmt111500]

Thanks be cause, I thought of protesting it's placement when I noticed the thread but didn't, so I'm ok with the consequences-section containing topics not directly related to AGW, as long as they're somewhat scientific. Same goes with policies and walking the walk-sections. I think there are a couple of economy threads as well buried somewhere deep in the history of the forum. I haven't read the section much, the threads in the beginning seemed somewhat vague in their topics and I haven't got the energy to delve into 20 message back and forths. But I see some enjoy those. 

[kassy]

I have a question about the hierarchy of the forum and how the Covid-19 discussion falls into the AGW section.

It seems like there is an interest in collapse related topics here and AGW is a very large, but not complete subset of the larger collapse topic.

Just thinking out loud here since things are being modified....should the AGW section be renamed to include a broader definition?"AGW and Other Risks to Humanity"? Is it appropriate to start a thread on the general risk of civilization collapse? If so, where would that best fit?

The forum related to Arctic Sea Ice, all the ice everywhere else or lack of it.

Then there are all other topics related to the same problem because that is basically managing our planet in a crap way. We are maximising someones moneys now over the chances for our posterity which should annoy you if you have kids you like, or grandkids. Or maybe if you like people in general?

There are plenty of threads related to collapse like Places becoming less liveable. But there we want articles about certain areas not someones ideas.

The Insect Extinction. You can put stuff about insects there. And related stuff like the scientists trying to preserve the forest where Monarchs overwinter going missing and then turning up dead. Put not pet theories about collapse.

There are many more examples but the important divide is this:

The whole general risk of civilization collapse is just a hobby project.

You can start a forum called It´s all coming down today/this month/this year/this decade/next century if we are lucky.com to discuss that. (hereby granting you the right for free to perpetuity).

Meanwhile there are many on topic subjects pointing to collapse.

Do we just read them? Does it move us?

Since we are a climate change related forum we will stick to that.

There are off course many other issues like our bad handling of toxicity in chemical products or large scale geopolitics. Several other things which i intend to post about in the Lessons from Covid thread.

The world is interesting enough without veering of into ´general risk´ (and if that is your thing check out how right the IPCC is).

[gerontocrat]

I have a question about the hierarchy of the forum and how the Covid-19 discussion falls into the AGW section.

It seems like there is an interest in collapse related topics here and AGW is a very large, but not complete subset of the larger collapse topic.

Just thinking out loud here since things are being modified....should the AGW section be renamed to include a broader definition?"AGW and Other Risks to Humanity"? Is it appropriate to start a thread on the general risk of civilization collapse? If so, where would that best fit?

Several threads in "Consequences" where we can argue about when / if / how we are all doomed.

[Niall Dollard]

To all, please respect the wishes of those reporting in this very important thread, and avoid veering OT even for short detours.

Guilty. Duly noted. 

[SteveMDFP]

I've been posting on the message board from Investors Hub for over 10 years now, and "No Personal Attacks" is a hardcore rule over there. Messages that violate that rule get deleted almost immediately. and this keeps the arguments on topic.

+1

Simply deleting inappropriate posts serves two good functions.  People who tend to post ad hominems or other crap will either learn or leave. 

Plus, what remains can be an excellent historical reference.  The Covid posts really summarize this catastrophe from the earliest reports, and discuss all the sequential findings and blunders.  The arctic ice posts can illuminate questions like "what the hell happened to the ice in 2012?"

[nanning]

A friendly request: Where applicable, please name the country somewhere at the top of your post.
(e.g. The U.S.A. is not the whole world and this is an international forum)

[HapHazard]

You are on the wrong internet, nanning. This is the American internet. You should be using the other one. The other 5 of us are there. 

Yeah, that's something that drives me nuts online. My neighbours can be quite oblivious, sometimes. (Canadian here)

[KiwiGriff]

That is the reason I am KiwiGriff on intentional forums.
It is not that I am at all  patriotic it is simply a statement to identify who I am and where I am commenting from.
It comes from the same conundrum that was identified on Robert Scribbler  when I was a regular there and the knowledge that there are surprising number of Griff's on forums that interest me.

[nanning]

I can see where you are from if "Kiwi" means New-Zealand. My request was about the posts one makes. If you would post about New-Zealand and it is not mentioned at the top, I wouldn't know that because your name doesn't mean you only write about New-Zealand.

I think it is nice to know the context of the post and I think my request is about nothing more than showing basic respect for your international fellow members. And it doesn't take any extra effort. e.g. Sigmetnow could easily write "US" at the top when he writes about the second largest country in North-America. I just don't want to be pushed in that USA-centric bubble. And I think it is bad for people from the U.S.A. as well to be so inwards focussed (you see much more if you're on the outside).


Trying to find a "nanning-from-the-Netherlands" version 
Suggestions welcome 

"WindmillNanning"?  "WoodenshoesNanning"? "BelowsealevelNanning"? "TulipsNanning"? "RedlightdistrictNanning"? "DykesNanning"? "HolsteinfriesianNanning"? "53N5Enanning"? "SinterklaasNanning"?

[wili]

How about iN-de-bAN-vaN-de-rING ?

[blumenkraft]

The concept of nation-states is overrated anyway...

[KiwiGriff]

Got to be an important person to be in here, honey
Got to have done some evil deed
Got to have your own harem when you come in the door
Got to play your harp until your lips bleed.
They say that patriotism is the last refuge
To which a scoundrel clings
Steal a little and they throw you in jail
Steal a lot and they make you king
There's only one step down from here, baby
It's called the land of permanent bliss
What's a sweetheart like you doing in a dump like this?

Some old time bard ....Bob something or other .

[be cause]

what @ US and 'them' ?   non pc b.c.

[nanning]

<snip>
Holy mother fucking shit!!!

Frivolousz21, why are you writing such bad language? Because of some surprising weather?
Are you trying to provoke? If so, why?
I don't like those words one bit.

I am surprised that this is not moderated.
I see that oren has posted already in that thread today, and that means that he has read it, I think. Why was it allowed?

If uniquorn is right with "respected" then perhaps in the moderators' views, some are more equal than others? I wish that that is not the case.

Shared Humanity, I regret to see you've left. You were part of an older core of members who could be trusted to not be deniers and without trolling behaviour. I didn't agree always with you but that has nothing to do with my respect for you.
All the best to you. Take care, and, might you decide to return, you won't lose face but be welcomed. You should know that  .

[Phoenix]

<snip>
Holy mother fucking shit!!!

Frivolousz21, why are you writing such bad language? Because of some surprising weather?
Are you trying to provoke? If so, why?
I don't like those words one bit.

I am surprised that this is not moderated.
I see that oren has posted already in that thread today, and that means that he has read it, I think. Why was it allowed?

If uniquorn is right with "respected" then perhaps in the moderators' views, some are more equal than others? I wish that that is not the case.

For what it's worth Nanning, I also had a reaction to the post and the lack of moderation. For me it was not so much about the language, but the fact that there was no information related to sea ice referred to in the post. There is no intention in such a post to better inform the community or promote discussion. It is gratuitous.

[blumenkraft]

Why was it allowed?

I don't think moderators should censor language.

The beeping of words like 'fuck' is a US thing, the forum is international though. Why would we adopt US behavior which is ridiculous in the first place?

I for one don't mind this kind of vivid language at all.

[Phoenix]

Why was it allowed?

I don't think moderators should censor language.

The beeping of words like 'fuck' is a US thing, the forum is international though. Why would we adopt US behavior which is ridiculous in the first place?

I for one don't mind this kind of vivid language at all.

Probably best not to make generalizations about other countries and their citizens.

[blumenkraft]

Sorry, Phoenix, i don't understand. Are you saying it's not a thing in the US? Or that it's done in other countries too?

[nanning]

Thank you Phoenix for your posts.

To blumenkraft (moderator context), I am disappointed in your response.
Why was there a separate thread created just for people to be able to use bad language?

Frivolousz21, what would your mother say if she would read that post?

Slightly related:
I have been posting my research results after 4 years of research in hermitage and gave a load of alien-perspectives. There is my hypothesis that I'm not influencing anyone (of the active members) because of unwillingness, lack of respect and lack of open mind. I am almost ignored in all of 'my life's work' so to say. Only some follow-up by wdmn, binntho and a bit by others last year. Then they've quit the discussions before I could reach further.
Having posted most of my results and understanding (not all) in one way or another, my archiving and world publishing goals are almost fulfilled. A big, really big THANK YOU to Neven and Dungeonmaster for this providing this open platform.

Shared Humanity went after a 'last straw', if I understand correctly. How many more are at a 'last straw' position? I think I am not far off. That's just an observation substantiated by the paragraph above.
Perhaps many would be relieved to see me and my high morality go away.

Another thing:
If a post on an international science-minded forum doesn't state the country it applies to, it should be removed or changed-with-a-warning. Already it seems that this is a U.S.A. forum with some international guests. That is not in the spirit of this forum I think. And absolutely not how a scientific community operates.

[blumenkraft]

f******

p***.

General question about bleeping swears: Is it required to bleep the cursing words?

It depends. If it's directed at someone, not so much. I don't have a problem with curse words in general. I think it can be very creative sometimes, linguistically speaking. 

I agree with Neven here. (admin context)

[blumenkraft]

... lack of open mind...

THANK YOU to Neven and Dungeonmaster for this providing this open platform

You are happy about an open platform, and condemn a lack of open-mindedness, but you want to have language restricted. Don't you think this is a contradiction, Nanning?

[Phoenix]

Sorry, Phoenix, i don't understand. Are you saying it's not a thing in the US? Or that it's done in other countries too?

I'm saying that it's neither universal in the US nor unique to the US. It's a personal preference that shouldn't be reduced to a national identity. You are blaming the US for Nanning's sensibilities when aversion to certain language is not proprietary to American's.

Once upon a time, someone insulted you here with a German slur. It wasn't appropriate. You are a human being, not a representative of the German people.

If ASIF adopts a standard that mother fucking is appropriate terminology in the melting season thread, so be it. That's your standard and your choice. But please don't make it a referendum on American culture.

[oren]

I apologize to all who are offended by Friv's language. I agree that on a scientific forum such language should be frowned upon, though I have no problem with it in my personal life. However, Friv has been entertaining melting seasons since 2011, always posting only when things get interesting, with a smattering of these very same F/S words over the years, along with liberal use of ALL CAPS, !!!, blowtorch and brutal and killing, cryptic short messages and general hyperbole. This has always been tolerated by past moderator(s) because of Friv's unique contribution and perspective regarding weather forecast analysis and melting season evaluation, the entertainment part for sure, and the silent understanding that "Friv will be Friv". I will say upfront that I do NOT intend to strictly censor Friv, and I recommend to all who are offended by his posting style to consider adding him to the ignored user list.
What I WILL do:
* I will make a small edit to the offending message.
* I will write Friv a friendly PM on the subject.
* I ask other users who respond better to such requests, to avoid using swear words in general and in Cryosphere threads in particular.

I also ask other users to "hang in there". The times are trying and nerves are fraying. But the planet, the environment, the climate and the future of humanity are important, and each of you has unique contributions and viewpoints and without you the community will be much diminished.

[El Cid]

Come on, let Friv be Friv! He is extremely entertaining. Let's not become dull old men. I always laugh my ass off reading his posts

[blumenkraft]

...You are blaming the US...

No, Phoenix. It's an observation, not an attempt to blame anyone.

[Freegrass]

I apologize to all who are offended by Friv's language. I agree that on a scientific forum such language should be frowned upon, though I have no problem with it in my personal life. However, Friv has been entertaining melting seasons since 2011, always posting only when things get interesting, with a smattering of these very same F/S words over the years, along with liberal use of ALL CAPS, !!!, blowtorch and brutal and killing, cryptic short messages and general hyperbole. This has always been tolerated by past moderator(s) because of Friv's unique contribution and perspective regarding weather forecast analysis and melting season evaluation, the entertainment part for sure, and the silent understanding that "Friv will be Friv". I will say upfront that I do NOT intend to strictly censor Friv, and I recommend to all who are offended by his posting style to consider adding him to the ignored user list.
What I WILL do:
* I will make a small edit to the offending message.
* I will write Friv a friendly PM on the subject.
* I ask other users who respond better to such requests, to avoid using swear words in general and in Cryosphere threads in particular.

I also ask other users to "hang in there". The times are trying and nerves are fraying. But the planet, the environment, the climate and the future of humanity are important, and each of you has unique contributions and viewpoints and without you the community will be much diminished.

Amen Oren! Your best post yet IMHO, and the reason why I believe you should be the only moderator here.

This forum lacks leadership and clear and enforced rules. The constant bickering and personal attacks on this forum are not beneficial to the membership count.


Before I was a member here, I already heard stories about this forum, and I understand those stories now. When people put in an effort to contribute to this forum, but then are constantly attacked when they do - because someone has a problem with you personally, or they hate the language, or the amount of posts, or whatever ails them - it's easy to just give up and go somewhere else...

Perhaps many would be relieved to see me and my high morality go away.

[Phoenix]

...You are blaming the US...

No, Phoenix. It's an observation, not an attempt to blame anyone.

It's more than an observation, it's a criticism and a judgement and a completely unnecessary / gratuitous association to US culture.

The irony here is that you have a European person reacting adversely to an American's use of raw language and you use it as an opportunity to point out that American's are prudish about language.

Personally, I value Friv's positive contributions to the forum and the colorful remarks when they are accompanied by at least some useful information. In my experience, he understands what's going on significantly better than the average melting season contributor.

[SteveMDFP]

Thank you Phoenix for your posts.

To blumenkraft (moderator context), I am disappointed in your response.
Why was there a separate thread created just for people to be able to use bad language?

Frivolousz21, what would your mother say if she would read that post?

This strikes me as moralistic finger-wagging.  It's beyond tiresome.  Any poster who incessantly trumpets his own experiences and personal perspective degrades an otherwise excellent discussion forum.

[oren]

Gentle folks, please put this matter behind you. No need for more responses, as it seems flames are starting, never a useful thing.

[vox_mundi]

Just an observation of life ...

Value what people do - not what they say.

Over the last few years I've gone to a local coffee shop for bagel & coffee and I've gotten to know a couple of the regulars. One is a public works employee. Rides a Harley, and swears like a combination of Joe Pesci and Robert De Niro (in the Goodfellas). He has also volunteered as an emergency medical tech on our local ambulance service for the past 15 years. He's saved more peoples lives then I can count.

Another person at the coffee shop was Mary, a waitress and co-owner. She could swear with the best of them and make a truck driver blush. She was also one of the most honestly loving persons I've every met. Every child that came into her shop got a hug and knew that they were special. No one ever went hungry in her shop - if they couldn't pay, they got a free meal. Also, the meal bill for many seniors who ate there (and lived on a fixed income) never changed, even though her prices went up. She passed away suddenly from a heart attack a little while ago and over a thousand people came to her wake and funeral.

Sometimes it's hard to see who a person is behind the text. But they usually have more facets than are visible to the reader.

If their not swearing at you, no harm; no foul.

Peace

[Aporia_filia]

Thanks a lot Vox, that's the way!

"Even if it were possible to get rid of swearing, it is doubtful we would actually want to. In fact, swearing can actually benefit us and our workplaces. People who can recall the most swearwords also tend to have better general linguistic abilities. A study of 75,000 Facebook users found that those who swore more on their pages were also likely to be more honest. A lab experiment found that people who were asked to swear while pedalling on an exercise bike went faster than those who were asked to repeat a neutral word. Swearing also helps people to tolerate pain and can help a work group pull together and bond. Swearwords are also great for blowing off stress or dispelling tensions without having to resort to physical violence. They also are ideal for grabbing someone’s attention.

Foul language may trigger strong emotional reactions in some snowflakes. But when foul language is used in the right way, it can be good for us and our workplaces. Those who are upset by swearing at work are unlikely to find a “safe space” to shelter from F-bombs. Perhaps it is time that they find something else to be offended about."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/15/toughen-up-senior-snowflakes-swearing-at-work-is-good-for-us

[nanning]

Thank you all for your responses.

To be clear:
Friv, I didn't in any way wanted to attack you, and I am not personally offended by those words. It is just a matter of decorum and 'class' of this international science-minded forum.
It is not professional. You wouldn't put those words in a science paper.
What's the 'level' of this forum?

[vox_mundi]

We still like you nanning, so relax. And scientists do swear - 'Trust me!'

[oren]

It's kinda funny, I was just about to edit the expletives+video out of this post which I found to be offensive to the general spirit of the complaints on this thread, unintentionally I'm sure. And then I discovered I do not moderate this section of course.  And then I recalled the moderator is the author of said post. 
I still like you Blumenkraft... but you need sometimes to be more considerate of others' feelings even when it requires curbing your great sense of humor.

[blumenkraft]

I moderated myself and moved it to the foul language thread, Oren.

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1860.msg263758.html#msg263758

[be cause]

.. and I've been busy moving soil with a wheelbarrow and missed the show . Is everybody happy ? b.c.

[oren]

Thanks BL, much appreciated.

[Archimid]

IMHO Friv is the only one using the correct language for what we are seeing.

Curse words are tools that should convey very deep and powerful emotions. They should be used when the situation merits them. At the same time, people frowning upon curse words is what gives curse words their power.

Nanning is right, but Friv is even more right.

[nanning]

Correct language?

Greta Thunberg hasn't and wouldn't use those words. Most women wouldn't. What's the matter with you guys?

I was a bit surprised at the complete lack of support for my request for decency.
Now I understand the 'level' of this forum better.

[oren]

Curse words are frowned upon and please avoid them, even if you think otherwise, for the sake of others.