Support the Arctic Sea Ice Forum and Blog

Author Topic: Forum Decorum  (Read 23474 times)

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6092
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 244
  • Likes Given: 174
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #100 on: November 15, 2018, 04:07:09 PM »
Posted a reply here.
Compare, compare, compare

sidd

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3862
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 70
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #101 on: December 05, 2018, 08:38:52 AM »
Re: split the forum, start a forum on politics - with different aliases

from a message in a different thread by oren

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,617.msg183216.html#msg183216

what are aliases ? do you mean an alias or a new name for a site with political discussions ?
e. g.,  neven starts a site called, say, only-politics-not-arctic-sea-ice.com ?

or that posters on this site reregister as aliases with different ids on this site to discuss politics ?

or ?

sidd

oren

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 2976
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 320
  • Likes Given: 596
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #102 on: December 05, 2018, 10:11:24 AM »
Thanks for the response sidd . You are one of the few posters who does post a lot in the political threads but that I still highly respect, thanks to using proper posting decorum and avoiding trolling behavior and endless bickering over nothing.
I meant that posters register separately for the political site, hopefully using different user names, so that their political opinions (and perceived trolling behavior in politics) will not color other users' reception of their posts on the "real" forum. IOW, so that hatreds/disrespect born in the political arena will not carry over. I am not sure if this is still possible at this point, as these hatreds are already deeply ingrained and many of the key users are already known to all.

HapHazard

  • ASIF Lurker
  • Posts: 30
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2
  • Likes Given: 108
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #103 on: December 05, 2018, 08:11:53 PM »
I'd just moderate each sub-forum section differently, like I personally used to elsewhere. (private website I administrated for 7 years, which at the time I stepped down had just over 150,000 users) Cryosphere = strict, AGW in general = medium, The Rest = lenient. I could post-ban a user per sub section (we had 5). Worked well enough & rarely had complaints. I can think of at least one user I'd use that banhammer on in the cryo section right now.

You'll never be able to completely separate high emotions from politics, as politics = religion & morals, essentially. So, any political counterpoint tends to feel like a personal attack, to varying degrees. (which is why I stay away from such discussions - you'll have better luck convincing the Pope that the concept of God is a falsehood, anyway)

aside: I poked my head into the thread linked above - funny how Lurk's "visual representation" post is exactly how I view his view on that. lol It's all about perspective & it's turtles all the way down...

sedziobs

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 197
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 19
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #104 on: December 05, 2018, 10:55:28 PM »
You'll never be able to completely separate high emotions from politics, as politics = religion & morals, essentially. So, any political counterpoint tends to feel like a personal attack, to varying degrees.
I'm in favor of closing the politics section.  I don't think it will ever happen because our host is using it to promote his own viewpoint, namely anti-Western establishment idealism.  It's been a constant, futile engagement between Team MSNBC (Rob, AbrubtSLR, Buddy, and now bbr) and Team RT (Lurk, Neven, Terry, Red, zizek).  Now that Buddy and AbruptSLR have removed themselves due to Neven's moderation, The Rest subforum is largely inundated with Team RT shouting into the night in the name of "activism".  Sometimes Steve will interject some sensibility on behalf of Team MSNBC, and sidd for Team RT.  In general it has become a cesspool of ego inflation and pompous vitriol.  I don't see how it advances the goal of tackling AGW.

 

sidd

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3862
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 70
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #105 on: December 05, 2018, 11:05:15 PM »
Re: "sidd for Team RT"

do tell ? As far as I am concerned, I invoke poxes on all their houses. As does Neven, from what I see.

sidd

sedziobs

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 197
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 19
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #106 on: December 05, 2018, 11:13:42 PM »
sidd,
Indeed, I meant to imply that you and Steve are separate from the actual Teams.  You provide short civil, thoughtful analysis that I enjoy reading.  I find your contributions to lean anti-West, and Steve leans pro-West.  But you're not monolithic, and neither of you get involved in crusades against those who disagree with you (something that I am guilty of myself). 

SteveMDFP

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1090
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 78
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #107 on: December 05, 2018, 11:16:25 PM »
You'll never be able to completely separate high emotions from politics, as politics = religion & morals, essentially. So, any political counterpoint tends to feel like a personal attack, to varying degrees.
I'm in favor of closing the politics section.  I don't think it will ever happen because our host is using it to promote his own viewpoint, namely anti-Western establishment idealism.  It's been a constant, futile engagement between Team MSNBC (Rob, AbrubtSLR, Buddy, and now bbr) and Team RT (Lurk, Neven, Terry, Red, zizek).  Now that Buddy and AbruptSLR have removed themselves due to Neven's moderation, The Rest subforum is largely inundated with Team RT shouting into the night in the name of "activism".  Sometimes Steve will interject some sensibility on behalf of Team MSNBC, and sidd for Team RT.  In general it has become a cesspool of ego inflation and pompous vitriol.  I don't see how it advances the goal of tackling AGW.

I'd agree.  And thanks for the (I guess) honorable mention.  I wanted to address comments by Neven, which were on the wrong thread:
" I'm an activits. I started the ASIB and then the ASIF with a goal in mind: to solve AGW (even if it's chasing windmills). I didn't and don't do all of this to create a pleasant and polite tea circle."

The world is in a crisis of civilization-ending proportions.  It might seem like it's time to throw etiquette to the wind.  I think the opposite is true.

Any working group, community, or team can cease to function productively if sniping and bickering become prevalent.  The stress of crisis can pull for such flame throwing.  Crisis is exactly the time when it's most important for members to approach each other with an attitude of respect.  Self-discipline in the matter is more important here than in any tea circle.

sidd

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3862
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 70
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #108 on: December 06, 2018, 12:06:07 AM »
I find that labels like "Team XXX" or "pro/anti YYY" obscure as much as enlighten. The world doesn't neatly fall into categories.

I write much of Empire and evils thereof, but that is perhaps because I now live in the beating heart of Empire. Yet I have travelled and lived in more places around the world, and seen more of human fallibility than I ever wished; i am under no illusion that all evils arise from Empire, or that Empire has no benefits.

That said, I entirely agree with SteveMDFP in his call to civility and self-discipline. As usual, I advise those lacking in the latter to use the ignore button.

sidd

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6092
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 244
  • Likes Given: 174
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #109 on: December 06, 2018, 12:11:01 AM »
What is the function of this 'working group, community, or team' that needs to be fulfilled in a productive way? If it is 'solving AGW', then I can only say that "Team MSNBC" isn't serious about it. And that's something that needs to be addressed and clarified, just like climate risk denial needs to be addressed and clarified. Because how does collective consciousness progress if discussion is suppressed in the name of etiquette or politeness? How do you solve a problem if you're only allowed to talk about symptoms and not root causes? How do you tackle systemic problems if the system must remain invisible, because people's feelings may get hurt?

The reason why people aren't serious about AGW, even if they don't dispute the numbers, is because deep inside they want to protect what's theirs. The boat mustn't be rocked too hard, because they're actually quite comfortable in that boat. I guess that's a very reasonable reaction to have. But you can have all the reasonableness, politeness, moderation, etiquette and bon ton in the world, and in the end, it will amount to no more than a bunch of violinists on the Titanic.

I've used this quote several times before, but I'll do it again:



I'm in favor of closing the politics section.

Nobody is forcing you to walk through that door. I've even removed all traces of politics on the front page. If you just ignore this part of the forum, all of the other stuff is still there.

I'd just moderate each sub-forum section differently, like I personally used to elsewhere. (private website I administrated for 7 years, which at the time I stepped down had just over 150,000 users) Cryosphere = strict, AGW in general = medium, The Rest = lenient.

I believe that I have moderated more or less in this manner. In fact, The Rest used to be a lot more lenient. How did you moderate in boards/threads that you were passionate about?
Compare, compare, compare

sedziobs

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 197
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 19
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #110 on: December 06, 2018, 12:50:03 AM »
I find that labels like "Team XXX" or "pro/anti YYY" obscure as much as enlighten. The world doesn't neatly fall into categories.
sidd
The world doesn't, but The Rest forum largely does, which is exactly the problem in my opinion.  How many times has Neven said that people who counter him are conditioned?  How many times has Rob rejected sources outright for being on his propornot list?  How many times has Lurk psychoanalyzed people in lengthy missives?  How many times did Buddy assume his own conclusion that the clock is ticking on Trump?  This is all tribalism.  It doesn't enlighten.

you can have all the reasonableness, politeness, moderation, etiquette and bon ton in the world, and in the end, it will amount to no more than a bunch of violinists on the Titanic.
Which is exactly what The Rest amounts to.  No one is changing their opinions.  The Titanic doesn't care whether the violinists are polite or enraged. 

zizek

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 301
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 16
  • Likes Given: 7
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #111 on: December 06, 2018, 01:36:52 AM »
So your solution is to shut it down? Do you think ASIF is the only community that has gone through these ideological growing pains?

zizek

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 301
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 16
  • Likes Given: 7
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #112 on: December 06, 2018, 02:04:59 AM »
It's frankly bizarre that so many people are suggesting to Neven to turn off politics.

Today, yesterday, and tomorrow are some of the most pivotal days of human history. Every day that our society ignores climate change is another day that makes our decisions more critical and difficult to make. So much is at stake. And people are suggesting we stop talking about it? Because it's making people uncomfortable? That its too heated? Too polarizing? Too vile? Too toxic? What do you expect?

Climate change is a symptom of an exploitative society that goes back for hundreds of years. The ideas, politics, power structures, and people that caused climate change haven't gone anywhere. And many people on this forum, including myself, are some of the greatest beneficiaries to this system.

We have to be convincing people that they need to radically change their politics in order to prevent climate change and the suffering caused by our exploitative society.  This is not going to be a pleasant experience. Because for many people, this process of change confronts everything. Their lives, their jobs, their friends, their spouses, their kids, their hobbies, their travels, their homes, their cars. Everything.
This is not going to be easy. But it has to happen. And the last thing we should be doing is ignoring it. Stop thinking that these problems are going to magically solve themselves. Instead, join the fun  ;)

sedziobs

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 197
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 19
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #113 on: December 06, 2018, 02:32:12 AM »
We have to be convincing people that they need to radically change their politics in order to prevent climate change and the suffering caused by our exploitative society.  This is not going to be a pleasant experience. Because for many people, this process of change confronts everything. Their lives, their jobs, their friends, their spouses, their kids, their hobbies, their travels, their homes, their cars. Everything.
The heated discussions are mostly a battle between Russia and the West, both of which are exploitative societies that have caused climate change.  Those discussions aren't convincing anybody of anything.  They're more likely reinforcing existing beliefs.  The Policy and Solutions forum is useful.  The Rest removes ASI from the ASIF.  I don't think it is useful.

Quote
Stop thinking that these problems are going to magically solve themselves.
Nobody here thinks that.  Stop thinking that your tribalism is going to magically convince people.

Lurk

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 160
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 9
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #114 on: December 06, 2018, 02:45:12 AM »
You'll never be able to completely separate high emotions from politics, as politics = religion & morals, essentially. So, any political counterpoint tends to feel like a personal attack, to varying degrees.
I don't see how it advances the goal of tackling AGW.

LOL The old simple binary approach. Oh if life was so easy, we'd all be experts!!! But if assumptions were raindrops, I'd be drowning in a Biblical level flood. :)

Of course there is much more going on than simplistic binary analyses like that. But who cares? Never ask a question when you already "know" you "know" what the answer is already. Ain't "dialogue" great? lol simpler to ignore the complexities of reality, specially the subtleties at play.

This has been known in past as Monday's Experts ... ever heard that song? It's about the "experts" who never take to the field themselves, but feel they can tell everyone else in the world what the players and the coach were doing wrong, on Monday. ROFL It's not only Turtles, it is Projections all the way down too. :)

« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 10:13:36 AM by Neven »
American journalist Walter Lippmann observed, “Where all think alike, no one thinks very much!”
To Solve Climate Change ~ Change the System, because it changes nothing when nothing changes!

Lurk

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 160
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 9
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #115 on: December 06, 2018, 02:50:00 AM »
it's most important for members to approach each other with an attitude of respect.

Sure. I can agree with that. I'm still waiting. Send me a note when that happens Steve. I'll take a screen shot.  :-X

Kind regards

Mrs. Chicken N. Egg
American journalist Walter Lippmann observed, “Where all think alike, no one thinks very much!”
To Solve Climate Change ~ Change the System, because it changes nothing when nothing changes!

Lurk

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 160
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 9
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #116 on: December 06, 2018, 02:58:56 AM »
How many times has Neven said that people who counter him are conditioned?

It's irrelevant what number it is. The only decent question worth asking, imho, is: Are those people unconsciously Conditioned or not? That's where the real "juice" is. That's what really matters.

If the answer is yes, then the next followup question is: How can they be helped and supported to to de-condition themselves?

Only those who have been through that difficult personal process themselves know the answer to that and how to help crack the "nut". The rest who do not know about such fundamental individual change will continue to complain about the Nutcrackers. But they really do not count or matter in the slightest to the positively good work that is actually being done right in front of their face but cannot, as yet, see it. :) 

« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 03:10:16 AM by Lurk »
American journalist Walter Lippmann observed, “Where all think alike, no one thinks very much!”
To Solve Climate Change ~ Change the System, because it changes nothing when nothing changes!

oren

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 2976
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 320
  • Likes Given: 596
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #117 on: December 06, 2018, 03:00:37 AM »
Well put sedzbios.
* Most people on these threads appear conditioned by the sources they read/watch, from both sides. One can easily predict responses. People are unwilling or unable to see both sides of the argument - the classic sign of tribalism.
* It's all one big shouting match. No one is being convinced. Standing on Hyde Park Corner preaching on a barrel is not activism, but an exercise in futility.
* It's on its way to becoming a purified echo chamber, which will certainly quiet the politics section - a good short-term result for the silent majority, though at a heavy moral cost.
* What goes in the politics section spills way out of the politics section. Tribe lines are suddenly drawn in other threads.
* I didn't even notice large-fonted Buddy left... but I did notice Bob Wallace, an important long-time contributor representing a certain economic viewpoint was driven out by unmoderated bullying a while ago

Lurk

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 160
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 9
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #118 on: December 06, 2018, 03:14:22 AM »
Well put sedzbios. (? ? ?)
* Most people on these threads appear .............


Appearances can be and are deceiving.

Reference for further research:
https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/appearances+can+be+deceiving

It mainly depends from where one is Looking from.
American journalist Walter Lippmann observed, “Where all think alike, no one thinks very much!”
To Solve Climate Change ~ Change the System, because it changes nothing when nothing changes!

zizek

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 301
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 16
  • Likes Given: 7
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #119 on: December 06, 2018, 03:20:56 AM »
We have to be convincing people that they need to radically change their politics in order to prevent climate change and the suffering caused by our exploitative society.  This is not going to be a pleasant experience. Because for many people, this process of change confronts everything. Their lives, their jobs, their friends, their spouses, their kids, their hobbies, their travels, their homes, their cars. Everything.
The heated discussions are mostly a battle between Russia and the West, both of which are exploitative societies that have caused climate change.  Those discussions aren't convincing anybody of anything.  They're more likely reinforcing existing beliefs.  The Policy and Solutions forum is useful.  The Rest removes ASI from the ASIF.  I don't think it is useful.

Quote
Stop thinking that these problems are going to magically solve themselves.
Nobody here thinks that.  Stop thinking that your tribalism is going to magically convince people.

naw. Many of the heated discussions stem from challenging the status quo. Radical vs. Reactionary. capitalism vs. socialism. West vs. the rest. etc.

And Russia is a hot topic right now eh? I wonder why.... Massive propaganda efforts from both sides. The Democrats are obsessed. Two proxy wars are being fought. Lots to talk about.....
But I guess you have it all figured out eh? Why don't you stop by one of the threads and decipher it all. We just need someone with a clear-head like yourself to save us from this lunacy.

That being said. I do agree that there is a problem with tribalism. And each of the "crowds", including myself, could benefit from criticizing our own. But it's exhausting enough debating people like Rob, who relentlessly spread propaganda, before we start having more nuanced discussions.

But this is the natural course of communities like this. They always start with vicious ideological battles, until eventually one or the other prevails. And the hope is that the common censuses is the one rooted in equality and sustainability. Then the tribalism will start to erode. More discussion in the realm of radical creativity, deep criticism of exploitation & violence, and a better appreciation for each other.
But right now there's too many warmongers, unapologetic capitalists, and even outright fascists. It'll be a while before things become cordial
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 03:34:36 AM by zizek »

Lurk

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 160
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 9
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #120 on: December 06, 2018, 03:23:12 AM »
It's frankly bizarre that so many people are suggesting to Neven to turn off politics.

Today, yesterday, and tomorrow are some of the most pivotal days of human history.

+1,000,000 ppm

imo your contributions should be celebrated, not canned. You represent a group of readers of this forum that will still be alive when the impacts seriously kick. The majority of actual posters here will be long gone. They've already had "their day" which led to today. And yet still can't let go of the belief it is they who have all "the right" answers and assume only "they know" how to make a difference in 2019 onward, or run a forum, while trying to silence anyone who dares disagree with them or whose style is totally different and passionate and in fact realistic.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 03:28:59 AM by Lurk »
American journalist Walter Lippmann observed, “Where all think alike, no one thinks very much!”
To Solve Climate Change ~ Change the System, because it changes nothing when nothing changes!

sedziobs

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 197
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 19
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #121 on: December 06, 2018, 03:34:04 AM »
But I guess you have it all figured out eh? Why don't you stop by one of the threads and decipher it all. We just need someone with a clear-head like yourself to save us from this lunacy.
I don't have everything figured out.  Seems like I'm the only one who feels that way.  I did participate in a few threads, but I became tribalistic myself, so I stopped.  The lunacy will continue because everyone thinks they have the clear head. 

zizek

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 301
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 16
  • Likes Given: 7
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #122 on: December 06, 2018, 03:40:11 AM »
Then you should understand that this is the nature of the beast. It sucks. It's exhausting. It's emotional. It's confusing. It's messy. It's not easy. The tribalism is a product of all that. We can only hope that all that crap subsides when the truth becomes more clear for everyone. But that wont happen overnight. Especially not in this day and age with all the garbage we're fed.

zizek

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 301
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 16
  • Likes Given: 7
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #123 on: December 06, 2018, 03:46:30 AM »
And I sure hell don't claim that I have everything figured out. But there are certain lines I can draw. exploitation, war, greed, fascism, racism, sexism, etc. I have no problem seeing tribal action against that shit.

Lurk

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 160
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 9
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #124 on: December 06, 2018, 05:25:12 AM »


The once-venerated American journalist Walter Lippmann observed,

“Where all think alike, no one thinks very much.”
American journalist Walter Lippmann observed, “Where all think alike, no one thinks very much!”
To Solve Climate Change ~ Change the System, because it changes nothing when nothing changes!

sidd

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3862
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 70
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #125 on: December 06, 2018, 08:57:09 AM »
Re: "What goes in the politics section spills way out of the politics section."

Politics will spill over into consequences. So shall we cease discussion of consequences as well ?
 
Suppressing discussion of politics will ensure reappearance of politics in other threads. Perhaps better to have explicitly political threads ?  Which can be entirely ignored by those who wish ?

In the end, this is Neven's house and his rules. What he calls, goes. Anyone who wants a different forum with different rules is welcome to make his own.

sidd

Lurk

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 160
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 9
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #126 on: December 06, 2018, 09:03:46 AM »
I tried hard to promote that habit, and the following triangle of truth :

Well I know for a fact that from the beginning I followed all the top 3 pyramid items without needing to be told what or how to do it. All the criticisms I got back - I'll repeat that for clarity - all the criticisms I got back instantly fell into the bottom 4 levels of that there Pyramid from the get go. (imho, though I personally think that qualifies as a fact.) Which us back to that little cartoon man standing in the bottom right hand corner of the Ivory Tower image.

Sometimes all the evidence in the world makes zero difference - in particular those that point blank refuse to even look at it. Also some struggle to hold a respectful dialogue when they are outside their comfort zone they're usual safety zone and it involves disagreement or a direct challenge to what they said. Especially when their most cherished "life-long beliefs and world views" are being challenged.... or even slightly questioned. 

Quote
"Like, on which exact occasions did Bush Sr. violate any rules of war"

Multiple examples were provided right here. Many more are at anyone's fingertips with an Internet access - everyone on the ASIF. Apparently Rob chooses to assert none were ever provided. Why, I do not know for certain. Make up your own mind on that.

Anyway, it's been like this for over two decades on every forum I have ever looked at. Nothing unique going on here at all. It's the nature of the beast - some beasts are worse than others - but people are to found in every location. "The same bone, different horse!" ;)
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 10:47:18 AM by Lurk »
American journalist Walter Lippmann observed, “Where all think alike, no one thinks very much!”
To Solve Climate Change ~ Change the System, because it changes nothing when nothing changes!

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6092
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 244
  • Likes Given: 174
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #127 on: December 06, 2018, 10:41:09 AM »
I've tried to go beyond mere tribalism by explaining that whichever tribe you belong to (or think you belong to), there is one common enemy. This enemy is not a person or a group of persons, but an abstract entity: concentrated wealth. This has shaped the system we currently have, and as long as concentrated wealth can grow endlessly and exponentially, nothing can be solved and we remain in the vicious cycle we have been in since human civilisation began.

I'm clearly doing a poor job in getting this across.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 11:49:40 AM by Neven »
Compare, compare, compare

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6092
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 244
  • Likes Given: 174
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #128 on: December 06, 2018, 11:45:27 AM »
Take for instance the discussion on George HW Bush being a war criminal (if anyone else here seriously thinks he wasn't one, I'd like to hear about it). The reason Bush was a war criminal, is because it benefited concentrated wealth, and if you do something that benefits concentrated wealth, you get rewarded. I would think this is a good basis for a further conversation, but along comes Rob Dekker who maintains Bush isn't a war criminal. And then you get bogged down in that conversation, and it turns out you belong to a tribe.

The same with the excessive focus on Russia. This is done, just as it has been done previously with 'terrorism', to further all kinds of goals that benefit concentrated wealth. Of course, the same is being done by groups on the Russian side. It's all exactly as concentrated wealth likes things to be, different groups vying for rewards from concentrated wealth, using the rest of the population to attain these goals. All of this is shoved aside, Neven is a Putin-bot, he's on Team RT.

The same with Corporate Democrats. There's a whole history to how the Democratic Party has shifted from representing the interests of the working class, to representing those of the owner class. The reason why is clear as day: Because of the rewards concentrated wealth bestows on those that help it grow and become more concentrated. But no, there is no such thing as Corporate Democrats, we have to content ourselves with lesser evil for a while longer, and then miraculously everything will start going in the right direction (without mentioning concentrated wealth). Trump and the GOP, another group vying for the rewards, take precedence over everything, as the media so dutifully explains to us every day. Neven, you're an anti-West idealist, still a Putin-bot, and your moderation style is destroying this wonderful Forum that wouldn't be there if it wasn't for you in the first place.

So, how do I overcome this?
Compare, compare, compare

oren

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 2976
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 320
  • Likes Given: 596
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #129 on: December 06, 2018, 01:59:10 PM »
Should I point out that not all bad things stem from concentrated wealth? It's a wide issue but still too narrow a prism to look at everything. If all humans on the planet were equal, over-consumption and AGW could still shoot us to hell. Greed is a built-in function in humans. So is one tribe/group/country fighting another. So is being gullible and going after rhetorical leaders. To assume that all of this is only because of brainwashing and conditioning and the MSM and TPTB is wrong. IMHO.

Not all people will agree with your opinions Neven. Even if you strive very hard. I've seen you make that point about wealth and capping maximum money for a single person, countless times, and I'm yet to be convinced this is the panacea that you think it is.

Of course, the trouble with "Rob against the other side" was not agreeing on any fact either. Each basic news story always had two different versions, usually diametrically opposed to each other. Thus you shall know the tribes, by their facts.

sedziobs

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 197
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 19
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #130 on: December 06, 2018, 03:18:44 PM »
Of course, the trouble with "Rob against the other side" was not agreeing on any fact either. Each basic news story always had two different versions, usually diametrically opposed to each other. Thus you shall know the tribes, by their facts.
I think this is a good summary.

Neven, you should not be surprised that some people find you tribal when you say things like:
Quote
I hope Rob and Martin won't disagree too much with the title and then refuse to read the rest
Quote
You have your enemy, your group of people that you don't know and therefore hate, because they are the cause of all the problems in the world. You're authoritarian Russophobes.
Quote
Rob is actively participating in creating the circumstances for the next war.
Quote
It really seems that wherever you come to discuss, you can't be bothered to go beyond conventional, conformist, moderate, middle-of-the-road, third-way, don't-rock-the-boat-now arguments.
Quote
Conditioned propaganda is deeply entrenched, you mean, to the point that you obligingly regurgitate it, like a good pupil who will do everything to get a pat on the head from the teacher.
Quote
You've already lost, you're already dead if you think that way. Do you even take something like AGW seriously? Or are just here to please the mommy and daddy in your head? Don't be so weak and wishy-washy, sounding all moderate and rational.
Quote
That's when people like you, in disbelief and disappointment, will seamlessly switch to some conspiracy theory that explains why your hero didn't deliver.
Quote
Okay, that's enough, Rob Dekker and Martin Gisser are on board. Anybody denying the veracity, nay truth, of this article, is a paid Russian troll.
Yes, Rob and others talk the same way.  A lot of what you say is responding in kind.  But it's still tribalism, however you try to justify it.  "I've tried to go beyond mere tribalism" rings empty.

Sleepy

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1148
  • Retired, again...
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 68
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #131 on: December 06, 2018, 04:04:56 PM »
I think Sasja Beslik is wrong about limiting warming to 1.5°C but close to reality on sustainable finance.

The quick fix for climate change.
https://twitter.com/SasjaBeslik/status/1069717425279643648
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
-
Science is a jealous mistress and takes little account of a man's feelings.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6092
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 244
  • Likes Given: 174
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #132 on: December 06, 2018, 04:18:47 PM »
"I've tried to go beyond mere tribalism" rings empty.

Like I said myself: I'm clearly doing a poor job in getting this across.

I let myself get bogged down in side alley cul-de-sacs, vainly hoping that if I can show people how they are being manipulated and divided, they get a broader understanding of how this eternal process is working. Does this automatically mean I belong to the tribe they oppose (ie a communist or a Kremlin-bot or a fascist)? If not, to which tribe do I belong? Where is this tribe of people that say that concentrated wealth is the enemy (mind you, not the rich, they are also victims)?

So, if discussions get bogged down at every turn, to the point that we have to discuss whether George HW Bush is a war criminal (which is insane), wouldn't it be better to invite the proponents of mainstream thought to either restrict themselves to the Arctic Sea Ice part of the forum that is entirely free of politics, or leave the ASIF? I'm sure there are plenty of forums out there, where they can go and be smart and respectable, and discuss the finer points of 'progressive' politics.
Compare, compare, compare

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6092
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 244
  • Likes Given: 174
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #133 on: December 06, 2018, 04:25:33 PM »
Not all people will agree with your opinions Neven. Even if you strive very hard. I've seen you make that point about wealth and capping maximum money for a single person, countless times, and I'm yet to be convinced this is the panacea that you think it is.

I've never said it's a panacea. I've said that it's an absolute prerequisite for solutions to stand a chance of being successful. You can't solve AGW and have a first-to-a-trillion race between Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates at the same time.

If you so forcefully disagree with me on this point, and think it's so horrible to have a person with such ideas run a fine forum like this, why don't you restrict yourself to the science side of the forum, and go find some other place that appeals more to your political views? I've spent time on many different kinds of forums, and I just ignored the parts I didn't like or find interesting.
Compare, compare, compare

sedziobs

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 197
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 19
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #134 on: December 06, 2018, 05:02:05 PM »
wouldn't it be better to invite the proponents of mainstream thought to either restrict themselves to the Arctic Sea Ice part of the forum that is entirely free of politics, or leave the ASIF?
I don't think so, but this is exactly what has happened.  Rob, Buddy, AbruptSLR, JimD, Bob Wallace and Susan Anderson have left the forum.  So now the echo chamber will consist of you, Lurk, Terry, and Red patting each other on the back.  You want to be an activist, but you're just shrinking your audience.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6092
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 244
  • Likes Given: 174
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #135 on: December 06, 2018, 05:18:56 PM »
JimD left for other reasons. Don't include him in that group.

You want to be an activist, but you're just shrinking your audience.

So be it. Either AGW gets solved, or it doesn't.
Compare, compare, compare

prairiebotanist

  • ASIF Lurker
  • Posts: 26
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 4
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #136 on: December 06, 2018, 06:05:04 PM »
wouldn't it be better to invite the proponents of mainstream thought to either restrict themselves to the Arctic Sea Ice part of the forum that is entirely free of politics, or leave the ASIF?
I don't think so, but this is exactly what has happened.  Rob, Buddy, AbruptSLR, JimD, Bob Wallace and Susan Anderson have left the forum.  So now the echo chamber will consist of you, Lurk, Terry, and Red patting each other on the back.  You want to be an activist, but you're just shrinking your audience.

Yeah, I was never any more than a lurker and only commented very sparingly, but you're right, and what I see here are just more grown-ups adopting the least effective social approaches possible. It's sad, and it diminishes the real contributions people have made. 

Lurk

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 160
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 9
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #137 on: December 06, 2018, 06:11:59 PM »
You want to be an activist, but you're just shrinking your audience.

Where is your evidence for that claim. That's a serious question that deserves a serious answer.

"Don't have any" - is an ok honest answer to give, btw.

I think you have evidence that about as many "posters/members" as I have fingers on one hand have stopped "posting". But Abrupt ASLR is already back, does he still count? 

But you have no credible evidence about any shifts in "audience" ... nor what might driving those shifts be they + or -
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 08:53:35 PM by Neven »
American journalist Walter Lippmann observed, “Where all think alike, no one thinks very much!”
To Solve Climate Change ~ Change the System, because it changes nothing when nothing changes!

Lurk

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 160
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 9
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #138 on: December 06, 2018, 06:23:14 PM »
and it diminishes the real contributions people have made.

Nothing can diminish the real contributions people have made... they made them. Oren's opinions can't diminish my own contribution either.
Quote
what I see here are just more grown-ups adopting the least effective social approaches possible.

Now we can all learn from you as you show us how to do it by your own example. A much more positive step than being a "lurker", right? Taking and not giving anything back, yes?

Rob's opinion and choices can never diminish Neven's contribution.... people in glass houses and all.
American journalist Walter Lippmann observed, “Where all think alike, no one thinks very much!”
To Solve Climate Change ~ Change the System, because it changes nothing when nothing changes!

oren

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 2976
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 320
  • Likes Given: 596
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #139 on: December 06, 2018, 07:43:52 PM »
You can't solve AGW and have a first-to-a-trillion race between Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates at the same time.
I honestly think you can. Both are valued as such mostly by the paper value of a single company. I see as much more problematic other financial issues - the immense power of corporations, especially felt in the energy and military-industrial sector. The issue of unending debt, increasing consumption in the present at the expense of the dying future. The sad state of the poor, the sick, the disabled, and the elderly, and what if at all can be done about it. Confiscating half of Amazon and half of Microsoft wouldn't change that. But the point is not to argue the point, instead to say it is okay to disagree with you on this point, IMHO.

Quote
If you so forcefully disagree with me on this point, and think it's so horrible to have a person with such ideas run a fine forum like this, why don't you restrict yourself to the science side of the forum, and go find some other place that appeals more to your political views? I've spent time on many different kinds of forums, and I just ignored the parts I didn't like or find interesting.
I don't think it's horrible to have a person with such ideas run a fine forum, and I think you are doing a very good job managing the deniers and the crazies and the offensive-languagers. I do think mixing pure everyday politics is a huge distraction to the long-term discussions (and the "fun" short-term following of long-term trends) going on in the fine parts of the forum. And this distraction is growing, and is already driving off some of the posters in the fine parts. I am not looking for place to fit or not fit my political views.. I am looking for a place that appeals to my sense of rational adult discussion about long-term problems, challenges, ideas and solutions based on facts, science and common sense.
I have tried very hard to ignore the political threads, but: they insist on appearing in the recent unread threads list, my tool for browsing the forum, and usually at the top of that list. In addition, they spill over to other threads, when suddenly politics posters start flame wars in the science part. And they can't be put on ignore - my fervent wish.
As I am probably considered a troll in some of these threads, maybe in this one too due to off-topic diversions, I will resolve again (as usual) to avoid posting about these subjects even when I chance on something that aggravates my senses, or confirms the long-term trend I am perceiving.

Steven

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 469
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 55
  • Likes Given: 12
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #140 on: December 06, 2018, 08:02:44 PM »
I'm in favor of closing the politics section.  I don't think it will ever happen because our host is using it to promote his own viewpoint, namely anti-Western establishment idealism.  It's been a constant, futile engagement between Team MSNBC (Rob, AbrubtSLR, Buddy, and now bbr) and Team RT (Lurk, Neven, Terry, Red, zizek).  Now that Buddy and AbruptSLR have removed themselves due to Neven's moderation, The Rest subforum is largely inundated with Team RT shouting into the night in the name of "activism".  Sometimes Steve will interject some sensibility on behalf of Team MSNBC, and sidd for Team RT.  In general it has become a cesspool of ego inflation and pompous vitriol.  I don't see how it advances the goal of tackling AGW.

I agree.  In my opinion, the politics section is full of bullshit from RT, Dore, etc., and it reflects very poorly on this forum. 

Unfortunately, I noticed that NedW has deleted his account:

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,28.msg182944.html#msg182944

wdmn

  • ASIF Lurker
  • Posts: 91
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 9
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #141 on: December 06, 2018, 08:12:32 PM »
Neven, if (and I agree with you) activism is at this point more important than monitoring, perhaps team up with some of the burgeoning movements like XR or Earth Strike by helping them get the word out, or helping them think about their demands... I just don't think that the quality of the arguments in the political threads as of late make them persuasive to anyone, and it's clear that they've alienated quite a few.

HapHazard

  • ASIF Lurker
  • Posts: 30
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2
  • Likes Given: 108
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #142 on: December 06, 2018, 09:02:25 PM »
How did you moderate in boards/threads that you were passionate about?
Extremely well, by all accounts.  8)

I'm not really complaining, FWIW. I'm only here to glean the most accurate information possible regarding the cryosphere; I couldn't care less about the political "discussions". Good job on keeping the sub-sections sequestered, as it helps in that regard. Honestly, my only quibble is that the ignore feature doesn't block quotes. I'm just going to tweak my old user/browser-side blocking script for this site, I guess.

[edit; this bit was left out]

You'll never be able to completely separate high emotions from politics, as politics = religion & morals, essentially. So, any political counterpoint tends to feel like a personal attack, to varying degrees.

LOL The old simple binary approach.

A generalized musing = binary. OK.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 09:30:58 PM by HapHazard »

sedziobs

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 197
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 19
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #143 on: December 06, 2018, 09:19:58 PM »
I think you have evidence that about as many "posters/members" as I have fingers on one hand have stopped "posting". But Abrupt ASLR is already back, does he still count? 
Considering that the vast majority of posts are by members that number about as many fingers as I have on two hands, I consider removing one hand to be significant.  AbruptSLR has not returned to The Rest subforum.  I don't care for a semantic argument over the word audience.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6092
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 244
  • Likes Given: 174
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #144 on: December 06, 2018, 09:21:37 PM »
Neven, if (and I agree with you) activism is at this point more important than monitoring, perhaps team up with some of the burgeoning movements like XR or Earth Strike by helping them get the word out, or helping them think about their demands...

That's something I hope to do in the near future.

Quote
I just don't think that the quality of the arguments in the political threads as of late make them persuasive to anyone, and it's clear that they've alienated quite a few.

I agree, and as usual, I've let things play out for too long. But eventually I was faced with a choice. I thought about closing the political threads, but things don't get solved by not talking about them, and I don't want to get the Cryosphere infested by political talk (like happened on the ASIB). I went out of my way to put Lurk and others on moderation, because I didn't agree with their style, even though I agreed with their content (I now snip their comments before approving them, and oftentimes just delete them). I also got involved more, but failed in getting my main point across. It didn't work, I was still a Putin-bot.

So, the choice was: Do I let mainstream thought dominate the political threads, or do I let radical thought have the upper hand?  I've now opted for the latter, because I'm a radical and it's not like mainstream thought is being curbed on the Internet or in the media. So, if someone is copypasting Mueller Investigation hysteria on a daily basis, it gets moved to the special Political Theatre thread. The same for someone writing TICK-TOCK every second comment, going nuts about whatever it is Trump has done this time. People who deny George HW Bush was a war criminal, are urged to find some neoliberal/neoconservative forum that will be more to their liking. People who arrogantly champion the greenwashing of consumer culture as a solution to AGW (Do you have a better idea? Huh, do you, do you?), receive push-back. The same with nuclear advocates. And so on.

I prefer if people stay on board, but I can't force anyone, and I'm also not going to endlessly try to please everyone. If you think the Cryosphere section is no longer worth visiting because someone says that Corporate Democrats are the reason Trump is president on the other side of the ASIF, then so be it. I'm very, very serious about AGW, and so I'm going to do this the way I see fit.

Does this mean that the political threads will now be an 'echo chamber that consists of me, Lurk, Terry, and Red patting each other on the back'? I don't think so, but we'll see. I don't see a reason why things can't continue as they have so far, with the occasional heated argument, based on actual events. Things aren't static, they evolve, just like this forum.
Compare, compare, compare

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6092
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 244
  • Likes Given: 174
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #145 on: December 06, 2018, 09:24:16 PM »

I'm not really complaining, FWIW. I'm only here to glean the most accurate information possible regarding the cryosphere; I couldn't care less about the political "discussions". Good job on keeping the sub-sections sequestered, as it helps in that regard.

Thanks, you clearly understand how forums work.

Quote
Honestly, my only quibble is that the ignore feature doesn't block quotes. I'm just going to tweak my old user/browser-side blocking script for this site, I guess.

I'll see if I can do anything about that, but my gut says it may be complicated.
Compare, compare, compare

zizek

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 301
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 16
  • Likes Given: 7
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #146 on: December 06, 2018, 09:25:21 PM »
I'm glad to see so many experts on activism here. I'm sure you're all very experienced in that field, and know what's best for Neven and this community.  With all these climate change protests erupting lately, you must really get a chance to practice your work.  Telling me and other young people:
"hey,easy there kids. make sure you don't get angry. Don't resort to tribalism. Take some time and listen to the democrats and republicans too. I know it sucks that my generation robbed you of your future, but just make sure you maintain decorum"

I'm also happy in the insistence that we need to give people like Bob and Rob a platform. Their neoliberal agenda is already supported by mainstream media, governments, corporations, and the majority of westerners. they have a monopoly on narrative and discourse, and they are well equipped to silence dissent. What are we accomplishing by giving neoliberals another avenue for propaganda? Unless... our goal is to maintain the status quo

prairiebotanist

  • ASIF Lurker
  • Posts: 26
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 4
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #147 on: December 06, 2018, 09:29:29 PM »
and it diminishes the real contributions people have made.

Nothing can diminish the real contributions people have made... they made them. Oren's opinions can't diminish my own contribution either.
Quote
what I see here are just more grown-ups adopting the least effective social approaches possible.

Now we can all learn from you as you show us how to do it by your own example. A much more positive step than being a "lurker", right? Taking and not giving anything back, yes?

Rob's opinion and choices can never diminish Neven's contribution.... people in glass houses and all.

The best example is probably given by those that aren't wasting their time here in this particular mud pen, so I'll give you that. The best example isn't by me, because I'm here talking to you, which I managed to completely avoid for months, during which time my example was completely invisible. I did, however, play a key role in the protection of several hectares of remant prairie, oak savanna, and fens during that time, so maybe that was good example. I voiced activism outside of the void, so maybe that was a good example. I tangibly compelled a few human beings through face to face interactions to see what I see during those months I've been away, so maybe that is a good example. It's not about being moderate vs. being radical, so much as it's about being a self obsessed *edit* jerk or not.

prairiebotanist

  • ASIF Lurker
  • Posts: 26
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 4
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #148 on: December 06, 2018, 09:38:44 PM »
You can't solve AGW and have a first-to-a-trillion race between Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates at the same time.
I honestly think you can. Both are valued as such mostly by the paper value of a single company. I see as much more problematic other financial issues - the immense power of corporations, especially felt in the energy and military-industrial sector. The issue of unending debt, increasing consumption in the present at the expense of the dying future. The sad state of the poor, the sick, the disabled, and the elderly, and what if at all can be done about it. Confiscating half of Amazon and half of Microsoft wouldn't change that. But the point is not to argue the point, instead to say it is okay to disagree with you on this point, IMHO.

Quote
If you so forcefully disagree with me on this point, and think it's so horrible to have a person with such ideas run a fine forum like this, why don't you restrict yourself to the science side of the forum, and go find some other place that appeals more to your political views? I've spent time on many different kinds of forums, and I just ignored the parts I didn't like or find interesting.
I don't think it's horrible to have a person with such ideas run a fine forum, and I think you are doing a very good job managing the deniers and the crazies and the offensive-languagers. I do think mixing pure everyday politics is a huge distraction to the long-term discussions (and the "fun" short-term following of long-term trends) going on in the fine parts of the forum. And this distraction is growing, and is already driving off some of the posters in the fine parts. I am not looking for place to fit or not fit my political views.. I am looking for a place that appeals to my sense of rational adult discussion about long-term problems, challenges, ideas and solutions based on facts, science and common sense.
I have tried very hard to ignore the political threads, but: they insist on appearing in the recent unread threads list, my tool for browsing the forum, and usually at the top of that list. In addition, they spill over to other threads, when suddenly politics posters start flame wars in the science part. And they can't be put on ignore - my fervent wish.
As I am probably considered a troll in some of these threads, maybe in this one too due to off-topic diversions, I will resolve again (as usual) to avoid posting about these subjects even when I chance on something that aggravates my senses, or confirms the long-term trend I am perceiving.
I'll put in a plug for Politicalwire, especially under those posts only accessible to members.

zizek

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 301
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 16
  • Likes Given: 7
Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #149 on: December 06, 2018, 09:41:44 PM »
People my age that are serious about climate change are also ferociously political. For the people that pay attention, they fully understand that climate change and politics are closely intertwined. And that to solve climate change, we have to confront and transform the way our society is structured. Confrontation means being loud. Otherwise we'll be silenced like any other movement that was close to changing the status quo. We are going up against an undefeatable foe. The 20th century is littered with examples of the state violently silencing radicals. So I have no inclination giving people like Rob the time of day when he's fully aware of the monsters he supports.

People older than me, on the other hand.  Well, they're busy trying to referee discourse.