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Author Topic: Forum Decorum  (Read 81137 times)

b_lumenkraft

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #200 on: July 03, 2019, 10:28:36 AM »
Sidd, this is not only an issue with users having an account and with it a killfile. This forum is a reference site. Given the popularity of some threads compared to others, you can clearly see there are a lot of outside people using these threads as an info source.

When someone is visiting the melting season thread, they are likely interested in information about the melting season. What they likely are not interested in is long term weather projections, meaningless chatter, uneducated opinions, meta discussions and forum specific social dynamics in general.

I'm not saying these things shouldn't ever happen in this forum. What i'm saying is these things should happen where they belong, in other threads, like the 'meaningless freezing season season chatter' thread, 'the long-range weather forecasting thread', etc. They should happen where they don't clutter and bury important information.

Keeping thread discipline is not much to ask for, is it?

Neven

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #201 on: July 03, 2019, 10:41:20 AM »
Keeping thread discipline is not much to ask for, is it?

Actually, it is, because it will only promote even more meta-discussion. At some point I'm going to have to decide for every comment whether it should be in the melting season thread, or perhaps the meaningless chatter thread is better, or wait, let's do it in the long-range forecast thread, or maybe I should just create yet another thread to fit that particular comment. Snip, snip, snip, please take it elsewhere, you're banned, and you're banned as well.

And then of course, some people will get upset that I put that comment there, and others will be angry that I didn't put this comment here. And then I set up rules, and people will start waving them at me, so I need to add more clarification, a couple of paragraphs, exclusions, exceptions. I will never be able to do it right, and the concern trolls will whine and wail, like the Philistines in the temple, until Judgment Day. And that's when things really fall apart.

So, what we're going to do, is continue as is, as flawed as things may be. If people are genuinely interested, they will be willing to work for it. Everybody needs to work for it, not just me.

And if someone doesn't like it, they can do something else, which is a very healthy thing to do, considering how noxious all this Internet stuff is.
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Pmt111500

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #202 on: July 03, 2019, 10:45:27 AM »
Ah, A-team has left the building, and uniquorn too? 1/20 signal to noise ratio isn't of course on par in scientific discussions, but I guess Neven wants this to be a place for non-scientists to visit. Wish I had something sensible to say, but I've been also known to wander in some (hopefully humorous) political commentary on threads not intended to that, so probably I'm not meeting the standards expected from a scientific site. Much politics here.
Cooling the outside by heat pump.

Sterks

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #203 on: July 03, 2019, 10:49:06 AM »
A-Team is highly respected on this forum not because of his attitude or his supposed CV, but because of his unparalleled scientific, analytic and image-processing contributions. Forum Decorum would dictate not lashing out at such posters.
That is BS, Oren.
I never disrespected this guy ever (or maybe once or twice responding to his arrogance).
He has disrespected entire collectives.
I give a rat f*** about his contributions, he is just a person behind a device like YOU and ME.

Sterks

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #204 on: July 03, 2019, 10:51:52 AM »
Ah, A-team has left the building, and uniquorn too? 1/20 signal to noise ratio isn't of course on par in scientific discussions, but I guess Neven wants this to be a place for non-scientists to visit. Wish I had something sensible to say, but I've been also known to wander in some (hopefully humorous) political commentary on threads not intended to that, so probably I'm not meeting the standards expected from a scientific site. Much politics here.

Yeah well, take his place ok? But without his entitled tone, please

b_lumenkraft

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #205 on: July 03, 2019, 10:59:46 AM »

Neven, i'm not asking you for more moderation. I think you have enough on your hands.

I'm asking for users to keep thread discipline. It doesn't need moderation for that to happen.


Sterks

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #206 on: July 03, 2019, 11:12:48 AM »

Neven, i'm not asking you for more moderation. I think you have enough on your hands.

I'm asking for users to keep thread discipline. It doesn't need moderation for that to happen.
Yes, I support that. But with moderation. With police.
Just one warning, and if the 2-page philosopher in question, the pseudoscientist league member, or the bad-data guys ( like the damn ACFNS/ GLB right now ) insists, snip, and the third time is out of the forum. I am not against good policy.
Just a suggestion.

johnm33

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #207 on: July 03, 2019, 11:14:19 AM »
Those who are not content with the killfile, but rather want  "offending" posters to be completely invisible not only to themselves but everybody else as well want to entirely silence the "offenders".  No dissent allowed, no opinion other than ones they approve.

Which is a very dangerous thing to allow the commentariat to do. As i have seen in other fora.

That said, one might question: why does Neven have the right to silence, but none of us ? Simple, you be in his house. In my house i lay down the terms and limits of discourse.

In other words you are under a benevolent(?!) single rule dictatorship here, rather than the dictatorship of the majority participants.

You dont like that, start your own blog.

sidd
amen

be cause

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #208 on: July 03, 2019, 11:16:46 AM »
What is the wages of a good troll these days ? I could do with a new income stream .. b.c.
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 ...

b_lumenkraft

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #209 on: July 03, 2019, 11:20:49 AM »
I'm old enough to remember IRC.

The moment you went off topic, you could be sure to get backlash in the room. From everyone. Oddly, no one ever brought up the free speech question. Everyone knew that they would get the most out of it when people would follow the rules.

Also odd, thinking that asking for thread discipline is some kind of police-stateesque oppresion.

Sterks

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #210 on: July 03, 2019, 11:33:11 AM »
I'm old enough to remember IRC.

The moment you went off topic, you could be sure to get backlash in the room. From everyone. Oddly, no one ever brought up the free speech question. Everyone knew that they would get the most out of it when people would follow the rules.

Also odd, thinking that asking for thread discipline is some kind of police-stateesque oppresion.
Well, Neven is the only one entitled, is his house. I don’t feel anybody of us shouldn’t, not even suggest. Like those stupid troll accusations all the time. What if it’s a troll, IGNORE IT! (Usually it isn’t)

b_lumenkraft

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #211 on: July 03, 2019, 11:47:55 AM »
stupid troll accusations all the time

I agree this is stupid. It's another topic though.

HapHazard

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #212 on: July 03, 2019, 11:50:11 AM »
The trolls and subtle baiters win? (if anyone thinks there isn't at least one sock puppet here, they're extremely "internet naive") But yes, at any rate, if you suspect someone is a troll then you shouldn't respond to them. At all.

On a site where I used to admin (I couldn't tell you squat about the code, mind you, other than it was heavily modified TBdev - I'm not a dev) we could post-ban users on a per-sub-forum basis. Complete with setting a timer on it, as well. Could simplify things here. IDK, but what I do know is that moderating an active forum is a fuck-ton of work. We had 5-10 forum mods from around the world, and sometimes even that wasn't enough. lol

In my ideal world, the Cryosphere sub-forum is mostly an encyclopedia / pure science+data section (ESPECIALLY the stickies), with a healthy smattering of conjecture, predictions, banter, and OFC a touch of humour. For me, the ratio there has gotten way out of whack recently.

Funny, that. Lots of heat in the Arctic leads to a lot of heat in the forums... I hope the dispersion doesn't get too bad.

gerontocrat

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #213 on: July 03, 2019, 11:59:49 AM »
What is the wages of a good troll these days ? I could do with a new income stream .. b.c.

Too late pal, at least for climate stuff. Very B.C.
When even the Koch Brothers start taking their marbles off the table, redundancy looms.

Fresh fields?
How about "Plastic Is Good". Nope, PIG doesn't sound too good.
or "Deep Sea Mining IS Good",  won't hurt the atmosphere, reduces air pollution.

End of Off Topic.
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aperson99

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #214 on: July 11, 2019, 05:35:22 AM »
Soooo, what happened, did magnamentis finally break up with us? or something else?

oren

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #215 on: July 11, 2019, 11:10:25 AM »
It seems he deleted his account, probably took to heart after Neven snipped him a bit recently, following somewhat excessive veering OT.

be cause

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #216 on: July 11, 2019, 11:30:02 AM »
I would stop people deleting their account as now thousands of posts by others no longer make sense .. if A-team did the same we would have lost really valuable content and context .  b.c.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 05:05:38 PM by be cause »
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 ...

oren

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #217 on: July 11, 2019, 11:37:22 AM »
The posts are not gone, but appear as guest, which causes troubles when trying to search something. It would indeed be better if accounts remained, with the status of inactive or deleted, but I would guess it's technically difficult.

Darvince

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #218 on: July 11, 2019, 03:51:30 PM »
I'm old enough to remember IRC.

The moment you went off topic, you could be sure to get backlash in the room. From everyone. Oddly, no one ever brought up the free speech question. Everyone knew that they would get the most out of it when people would follow the rules.
I'm still in several IRC channels, today, in 2019! The channels I am in veer off the stated topic constantly, and at least one of them was never on the topic to begin with. However, these channels are supported by places outside of IRC, and function as basically community hubs for any sort of chitchat. They're also very small. The largest has 29 users as of this post.

I think that much of this has to do with the scale of the chat. A chat with hundreds of active users (writing one or more lines a day) must stay on topic to stay useful, and can't really become a community hub. Whereas a small chat with twenty or less active users can afford to talk about things that are not the topic, as they aren't constantly being observed by others or having new users come in asking questions about the topic of the channel.

I think the changes that come with increasing scale also apply to this forum. Especially this year, the rate of posts has increased dramatically compared to years past and so it takes more and more effort to engage with, say, the 2019 melting season thread. And so it may feel like, if you are keeping up with it (I stopped because it accumulates new posts too quickly for how much I read this forum), that the posts in it are getting worse as there's more and more posts of all qualities, but the mediocre posts that were already making up much of what you read when going through the thread are now even more absolutely numerous.

b_lumenkraft

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #219 on: July 11, 2019, 04:39:58 PM »
Soooo, what happened, did magnamentis finally break up with us? or something else?

:(

nanning

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #220 on: July 11, 2019, 06:19:23 PM »
Soooo, what happened, did magnamentis finally break up with us? or something else?

:(
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kassy

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #221 on: July 11, 2019, 10:07:47 PM »
The forum i modded only allowed editing of a post in 24 hours. No deleting after that. Worth it if only to keep the threads intact. And fair. You post to a public forum your post becomes public.

Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

Neven

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #222 on: July 11, 2019, 11:28:08 PM »
It seems he deleted his account, probably took to heart after Neven snipped him a bit recently, following somewhat excessive veering OT.

It's a common reaction that shows that certain people are really self-engrossed. The best example is Lurk, who had plenty of interesting things to say, but became so dominant that when I pushed back, he completely self-destructed.

Magnamentis at least had the courtesy to preserve his posts, but the problem with him was that he posted way too much irrelevant stuff. I don't mind a bit of banter, but if someone keeps posting stuff that is better suited to a PM (thank you, I agree with you, but I just thought I would add, but might be wrong, blah blah, blah, LOL) and keeps quoting whole quotes without taking out the irrelevant stuff, it really becomes a drag.

Now, I just don't read that stuff, but I can't endlessly ignore people's complaints. Never mind the fact that I had been through this before with MM and have hinted plenty of times over the years.

Again, his reaction shows everything.

The forum i modded only allowed editing of a post in 24 hours. No deleting after that. Worth it if only to keep the threads intact. And fair. You post to a public forum your post becomes public.

This seems like a good idea. I don't want to take away people's ability to delete a comment, but I don't want them to have the possibility to damage the forum when their egos get bruised. I'll see if I can tweak some setting.

edit: Found it, and also put it at 24 hours. But does this prevent the deletion of posts when a member self-destructs?
« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 11:34:32 PM by Neven »
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petm

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #223 on: July 12, 2019, 12:39:47 AM »
edit: Found it, and also put it at 24 hours. But does this prevent the deletion of posts when a member self-destructs?

Want me to test it? Jk. :P

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #224 on: July 12, 2019, 02:39:33 AM »
Hey, I was going to volunteer!  But wait, a thread I post on got praised by a real climate scientist.  I withdraw my objection.
 
Woops, this was meant to be a PM ...
 :D
« Last Edit: July 12, 2019, 02:44:38 AM by Tor Bejnar »
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HapHazard

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #225 on: July 12, 2019, 10:49:18 AM »
Good stuff, Neven.

kassy

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #226 on: July 12, 2019, 11:50:37 AM »
edit: Found it, and also put it at 24 hours. But does this prevent the deletion of posts when a member self-destructs?

Not entirely sure. I think it did for us at the time.
I would check member permissions to see if there is anything to toggle. Is deleting all posts an option you get while quitting?

I think that that option was a choice back then and autodelete was disabled so the edit rule removed the option to do it manually.



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oren

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #227 on: July 12, 2019, 12:20:27 PM »
Neven, good change. Just could you change to 48h? I often notice typos (thick finger syndrome) when my posts are quoted, and I am often bothered enough to edit the original post.

uniquorn

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #228 on: July 12, 2019, 01:13:17 PM »
Yesterday I added a clarification to a post for an image that was downloaded 2500 times at the time. Editing recent posts is valuable in order not to mislead. 48 or 72hours might be better.

gerontocrat

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #229 on: July 12, 2019, 01:27:00 PM »
Neven, good change. Just could you change to 48h? I often notice typos (thick finger syndrome) when my posts are quoted, and I am often bothered enough to edit the original post.
Typos'R'Me, as are other less trivial errors.

They will have to stay uncorrected. Saves me some work.
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Neven

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #230 on: July 12, 2019, 01:54:34 PM »
Neven, good change. Just could you change to 48h? I often notice typos (thick finger syndrome) when my posts are quoted, and I am often bothered enough to edit the original post.

48 hours is too long, so I changed it to 47 hours and 59 minutes.  ;)
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FishOutofWater

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #231 on: July 12, 2019, 05:39:34 PM »
Sorry about MM. I think he has good intentions. The moderation was appropriate and he shouldn't have taken it personally.

Juan C. García

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #232 on: July 14, 2019, 02:56:20 PM »
Soooo, what happened, did magnamentis finally break up with us? or something else?

:(
b_lumenkraft also deleted his account (he appears as a guest).
The liked posts are changed abruptly.
Which is the best answer to Sep-2012 ASI lost (compared to 1979-2000)?
50% [NSIDC Extent] or
73% [PIOMAS Volume]

Volume is harder to measure than extent, but 3-dimensional space is real, 2D's hide ~50% thickness gone.
-> IPCC/NSIDC trends [based on extent] underestimate the real speed of ASI lost.

Neven

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #233 on: July 14, 2019, 03:01:21 PM »
I can see how drama queens enjoy pressing Like buttons.  ::)
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oren

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #234 on: July 14, 2019, 03:01:40 PM »
Yeah, very sad. Another case of the political side of the forum destroying the scientific community here. So many political discussions on the 'net, do we really need that here as well?
Water under the bridge I guess. But it's a scab I tend to scratch every now and then.

nanning

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #235 on: July 14, 2019, 05:53:11 PM »
b_lumenkraft also deleted his account (he appears as a guest).

:( :(
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
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HapHazard

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #236 on: July 14, 2019, 06:32:38 PM »
Quote
b_lumenkraft also deleted his account (he appears as a guest).

goddammit
 
 :(  :'(

DrTskoul

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #237 on: July 14, 2019, 06:44:41 PM »
One has to be able to ignore the political discussion. I agree it has become too much but who am I to judge. One I know though, whoever is certain they are right is a hair from becoming dogmatic and one of the same too...

philopek

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #238 on: July 14, 2019, 07:45:59 PM »
One has to be able to ignore the political discussion. I agree it has become too much but who am I to judge. One I know though, whoever is certain they are right is a hair from becoming dogmatic and one of the same too...

YES and:

Which is why opting-out of disputes without clear or without any solution is a wise move, not cowardice.

One should not waste his energy into useless and doomed enterprises but walk out and focus on targets that are feasible and meaningful at the same time.

IMHO when it comes to topics like concentration camps, torture (i.e. waterboarding) and so on, there is no room for dispute and discussion, either someone or a group or it's leader fully supports the one who is against such things or is guilty through passive collaboration. There are things against which we have to stand like a rock, no buts and no alternatives exist that have ever proved to work.

Working in this context means stopping the culprits and potential evil doers.

Violence and blackmail will never go through as acceptable human means of achieving a goal, while defense is not a goal but averting an evil doers goals and legit only as a reaction and not as a precaution.

What is happening if the victims insist on precaution we can see in famous conflicts that are lasting for thousands of years and won't stop as long as not both sides are willing to accept a risk to allow for peace.

Similarly it's with romantic love. One has to be ready to lose to be able to love, else a relationship is interest based and a partnership at best, but should not be confused with genuine and unconditional love that is based on respect.

So this what applies for a couple in fact is the only way that works for groups. The first thing that respect does is to respect the differences and avoid general judgement. (by nation, color etc. )
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 08:00:29 PM by philopek »

be cause

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #239 on: July 15, 2019, 01:09:48 PM »
not too important .. I just noticed MM was able to take his 'likes' with him .. I had no idea until now how much he liked me .. lol .. b.c.
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 ...

kassy

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #240 on: July 15, 2019, 02:27:36 PM »
Our german hippy friend was over 1600 likes too. But maybe MM is more important for you since you are both oldtimers.  ;)
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nanning

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #241 on: July 15, 2019, 06:16:22 PM »
I  lost more than 20% of the "liked" because of b_lumenkaft leaving.  I wish he will return. And MM too. And Lurk.
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be cause

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #242 on: July 15, 2019, 06:24:47 PM »
why has b-l left ? .. he may have been my multi-liker .. we were good friends in the background .. I didn't see that one coming . It is easy to lose the best posters . I hadn't many friends here , but that's most of them gone . Only bbr left to go ... aagh !  b.c.
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 ...

Sterks

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #243 on: July 15, 2019, 08:47:34 PM »
magnamentis represented 90% of my fast-scrolling activity reading the Forum, but that guy Lumencraft did wonderful gifs with Rammb. And was real nice, I think.
Hope he comes back with another username.

HapHazard

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #244 on: July 15, 2019, 08:49:00 PM »
magnamentis represented 90% of my fast-scrolling activity reading the Forum, but that guy Lumencraft did wonderful gifs with Rammb. And was real nice, I think.
Hope he comes back with another username.
haha same story here

Pmt111500

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #245 on: July 16, 2019, 10:09:58 AM »
why has b-l left ? .. he may have been my multi-liker .. we were good friends in the background .. I didn't see that one coming . It is easy to lose the best posters . I hadn't many friends here , but that's most of them gone . Only bbr left to go ... aagh !  b.c.

It looks like he had opinions on alt-right, that weren't given enough credit by alt-right.  Didn't see the discussion happening so can't say what happened.

Maybe it's time for a hiatus for me as well.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2019, 10:30:23 AM by Pmt111500 »
Cooling the outside by heat pump.

gerontocrat

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #246 on: July 16, 2019, 01:04:55 PM »
If there are alt-right scum on the ASIF I am taking a walk.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
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DrTskoul

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #247 on: July 16, 2019, 01:10:25 PM »
If there are alt-right scum on the ASIF I am taking a walk.

In a free forum you cannot prevent anyone from dropping by. However the tone and content of discussion can only be based on empirical evidence, and the scientific principle ( in most threads ).  There many political threads that have been actively engaged in a dogmatic banter... I avoid those most of the time and only drive by to see who is who when the curtain has been pulled...

You don't have to walk . There many good folks here to make it worthwhile. Otherwise the loud bigots have won....

oren

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #248 on: July 16, 2019, 01:34:09 PM »
If there are alt-right scum on the ASIF I am taking a walk.
Don't do it. This is what made B_L walk. Bad move, as it takes one alt-righter to drive away the good folks, giving a major win for the trolls.
The only solution is to ignore them and wait for them to incriminate themselves enough so Neven shows them the door.

be cause

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #249 on: July 16, 2019, 04:03:52 PM »
It is sad that the vomit-fest of political threads is attached to ASIF especially when it is costing the forum so dear . I stay away from it but the stink gets everywhere , Neven . b.c.
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 ...