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kassy

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #350 on: August 14, 2019, 06:47:24 PM »
Well that lightens the workload so that is good.
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

johnm33

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #351 on: August 14, 2019, 07:09:02 PM »
Consider this, "When I look around at the state of public discourse in ‘the West’  what strikes me is that everyone says they want to have a reasoned and rational debate but say that the reason it doesn’t happen is because the ‘other side’ is irrational and so they can’t be debated with. The ‘other side’, their opponents say, always avoids the debate, is never willing to just answer a reasonable question and generally just refuse to have the debate they claim to want.  Does this resonate with you?" continued here :- http://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2019/05/how-to-prevent-debate-while-claiming-to-be-in-favour-of-it/

DrTskoul

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #352 on: August 14, 2019, 07:09:55 PM »
It is easy for the other side to be always wrong :)

petm

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #353 on: August 14, 2019, 07:17:34 PM »

sailor

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #354 on: August 14, 2019, 08:19:39 PM »
I think the key to be civil and not bothered in this Forum are two:
- Don’t get into political discussions
- From time to time, throw a very alarmist claim such as “ the IPCC, Paris, 2018 revision are nuts, scientists are too conservative, we are roasting much earlier and the Arctic goes first, year-free ice by 2030, no humans by 2050” or “all the electric cars ain’t gonna save us” instead of what one could really believe, such as
* Scientists are right more often than not
* All-Electric car transition will be a real help.

Deniers here have no place or are easily spotted and identified. They usually behave because they want to be the “voice of reason”.
Beware of the radical-alarmists, those are in numbers and out of control and willing to bite.
Hopefully they will forget/forgive that I wrote this :) :) :)
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blumenkraft

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #355 on: August 14, 2019, 08:24:23 PM »
- Don’t get into political discussions

Guys, totally do that!

Just give me the political hegemony on this forum and all will be fine. Just let me be your benevolent dictator. You will not regret it!

 ;D ;)
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oren

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #356 on: August 14, 2019, 09:05:15 PM »
Rich too has deleted his account... :-\
I'm normally sorry to see people go. Rich had the right politics but a bad attitude and not enough science.
In any case, maybe A-Team can come back now??

DrTskoul

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #357 on: August 14, 2019, 09:43:28 PM »
- Don’t get into political discussions

Guys, totally do that!

Just give me the political hegemony on this forum and all will be fine. Just let me be your benevolent dictator. You will not regret it!

 ;D ;)

Humpf....

blumenkraft

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #358 on: August 14, 2019, 09:44:19 PM »
 :o

 I can't see why this wouldn't be good. :P
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HapHazard

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #359 on: August 14, 2019, 10:08:47 PM »
Rich too has deleted his account... :-\
Good riddance, honestly. Was always rubbing folks the wrong way, and IMO it was at least partly intentional*. Then he got horrible while Neven was away, only to kiss up when he came back, followed by the inevitable backslide. Just look at his posts in this thread, entitled "Forum Decorum"... Very telling.

In any case, maybe A-Team can come back now??
One can dream.  :)

* (baiting, which is subtle trolling; "plausible deniability" of trolling is currently a major tactic for sowing discord online)

gerontocrat

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #360 on: August 14, 2019, 11:35:32 PM »
I am reminded of being in the 6th Form and at Uni when we demanded CHANGE!!

At school a grizzled old teacher said - "You are here 7 years max. I have been here 20 years with 10 more to go. Don't expect the school to change just because....".  I wonder what the average membership time-span is of members who post regularly.

Not that I would have the temerity to call Neven grizzled. But even I was tempted to suggest changes to make the ASIF more the way I would have it if it belonged to me. And I did, on suggesting most political discussions not to clog up the unread posts section. But I occasionally look around at other places, and there is nowt that comes anywhere near the same league as the ASIF.

Keep on trucking, Neven. You have made a unique place - for interesting discussions. My advice (unwanted or not) -- Only make changes if you are sure something needs fixing.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
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uniquorn

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #361 on: August 14, 2019, 11:48:52 PM »
.
edit: woah, like the nilas :)
As we all probably know by now, neven is the target.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 12:12:24 AM by uniquorn »

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #362 on: August 15, 2019, 04:08:12 AM »
"Young ice" makes me think I'm having a mid-life crisis, having been an old fogy "Governor".  Maybe I'll start having some fresh ideas once in a while! :o
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Sebastian Jones

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #363 on: August 15, 2019, 07:19:54 AM »
I'm just posting out of curiosity to discover what stage of ice I have been assigned :-*

budmantis

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #364 on: August 15, 2019, 07:21:54 AM »
Good question! How do I get an Ice designation?


Oops! I see I have one. lol

Sebastian Jones

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #365 on: August 15, 2019, 07:25:11 AM »
I think I know where the designations came from:
New ice, nilas and young ice[edit]

Nilas in Baffin Bay
New ice is a general term used for recently frozen sea water that does not yet make up solid ice. It may consist of frazil ice (plates or spicules of ice suspended in water), slush (water saturated snow), or shuga (spongy white ice lumps a few centimeters across). Other terms, such as grease ice and pancake ice, are used for ice crystal accumulations under the action of wind and waves.

Nilas designates a sea ice crust up to 10 centimetres (3.9 in) in thickness. It bends without breaking around waves and swells. Nilas can be further subdivided into dark nilas – up to 5 cm (2.0 in) in thickness and very dark, and light nilas – over 5 cm (2.0 in) in thickness and lighter in color.

Young ice is a transition stage between nilas and first-year ice, and ranges in thickness from 10 cm (3.9 in) to 30 cm (12 in), Young ice can be further subdivided into grey ice – 10 cm (3.9 in) to 15 cm (5.9 in) in thickness, and grey-white ice – 15 cm (5.9 in) to 30 cm (12 in) in thickness. Young ice is not as flexible as nilas, but tends to break under wave action. In a compression regime, it will either raft (at the grey ice stage) or ridge (at the grey-white ice stage).

First-year sea ice[edit]

Distinction between 1st year sea ice (FY), 2nd year (SY), multiyear (MY) and old ice.
First-year sea ice is ice that is thicker than young ice but has no more than one year growth. In other words, it is ice that grows in the fall and winter (after it has gone through the new ice – nilas – young ice stages and grows further) but does not survive the spring and summer months (it melts away). The thickness of this ice typically ranges from 0.3 m (0.98 ft) to 2 m (6.6 ft).[5][6][7] First-year ice may be further divided into thin (30 cm (0.98 ft) to 70 cm (2.3 ft)), medium (70 cm (2.3 ft) to 120 cm (3.9 ft)) and thick (>120 cm (3.9 ft)).[6][7]

Old sea ice[edit]
Old sea ice is sea ice that has survived at least one melting season (i.e. one summer). For this reason, this ice is generally thicker than first-year sea ice. Old ice is commonly divided into two types: second-year ice, which has survived one melting season, and multiyear ice, which has survived more than one. (In some sources,[5] old ice is more than 2-years old.) Multi-year ice is much more common in the Arctic than it is in the Antarctic.[5][8] The reason for this is that sea ice in the south drifts into warmer waters where it melts. In the Arctic, much of the sea ice is land-locked.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_ice

Which makes perfect sense!

oren

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #366 on: August 15, 2019, 08:31:23 AM »
For those wondering, our top two posters (sigmetnow and AbruptSLR) are designated as Multi-year ice.

cognitivebias2

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #367 on: August 15, 2019, 02:02:08 PM »
Multi-Year Ice, that's pretty rare stuff.  Well played Neven.

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #368 on: August 15, 2019, 04:33:05 PM »
Cross post:  I thought this idea might ought to go here:
... I agree with Gero that in general people on ASIF create GIFs that are too fast. You end up having to watch them lots of times, and still don't get as clear an understanding of what's going on as you would if they were slower. Also support having the last frame slow/long, so that if the GIF is looping, it's clear what the final state is, and when the GIF starts/ends.

I create short 1 to 5 frame GIFs, and have been making frames last 1 second (used to be 0.9 sec.) with a longer last, and sometimes first, frame (1.5 sec.).

Some movies, though, need to go much faster to show motion.
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nanning

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #369 on: August 29, 2019, 06:41:24 PM »
Neven, would it be possible to have not just 1 like option, but, say, from a like 1 thru a like 3?
To be able to give a like some emphasis. More meaning?

Number of like's are stored as a 64bit cardinal I assume  ;)?
And of course you have to make the like-field a nibble;D

signed: sir like-a-lot ;)
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blumenkraft

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #370 on: August 29, 2019, 08:15:09 PM »
OHH NOO, you took my crown, you thief!  :P ;)
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blumenkraft

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #371 on: August 29, 2019, 08:18:26 PM »
Some movies, though, need to go much faster to show motion.

Agreed.

Playing rather fast is also very useful to obscure clouds.
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blumenkraft

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #372 on: August 30, 2019, 11:12:35 PM »
There aren't many people like you that give more likes then they get... I don't get it... Likes are free to give, so why is everyone so stingy with them?

Since Freegrass mentioned it, i want to make a general note:

Currency is speech. This forum gives everyone free currency in the form of Likes. Why not use your freedom of speech?
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sailor

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #373 on: August 31, 2019, 12:26:18 AM »
There aren't many people like you that give more likes then they get... I don't get it... Likes are free to give, so why is everyone so stingy with them?

Since Freegrass mentioned it, i want to make a general note:

Currency is speech. This forum gives everyone free currency in the form of Likes. Why not use your freedom of speech?
Yes, but I personally am a bit slow in pushing the like button. There are many messages that I like and I forget to “Like”. I guess if comes with my “baby-boomer” condition, which has great things and not-so-great, some users find an abhorrent age like TeaPotty. Poor baby.
 Anyway not used to appreciate like buttons and similar. Even with emoticons. Hope you don’t harshly judge me for that :)
Ps. By the way, I did this message as likable as possible, but probably won’t grant me too many “likes”.
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oren

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #374 on: August 31, 2019, 09:59:40 AM »
I know many users dislike the Like system as it reminds of social media and frivolities rather than science. If you look at some of the traditional top posters that "ruled" the forum, posters whom I highly admire, you will see zero or near-zero likes given. I can identify with this approach, as I dislike social media and its frivolities.
However, I personally do use it to show appreciation without constantly derailing threads, and to give active and contributing posters a positive feedback. I use an adaptive threshold algorithm: I especially give Likes to new users, but require progressively higher contributions from top posters.
I mostly Like posts that are very much spot on when dealing with difficult to explain subjects, that bring a personal perspective or real life case pertinent to the discussion, or that take an effort to generate (number crunching, complex graphs, animations, repetitive daily or weekly updates of an important topic).

be cause

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #375 on: August 31, 2019, 10:15:14 AM »
I'm sure if the 'like' option was at the bottom of a post rather than the top it would be used more . Scrolling  back to the top of a post is not always going to happen esp. one with lots of graphs or weather forecasts .. even those that deserve to be licked .. b.c.
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 ...

blumenkraft

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #376 on: August 31, 2019, 10:33:54 AM »
I'm not sure i get the 'dislike social media' point. This forum is de facto social media. If someone dislikes social media, what are they doing here?

Likeworthyness is highly subjective. I like your approach, Oren. I do the same when it comes to new users as an incentive to keep them motivated to contribute. I have to say this has backfired once or twice, but i don't regret it. ;)

I think posts that took effort should be liked more. For example, when Uniquorn grabs years and years of screenshots to make GIFs showing unknown phenomenons. Or when Sam writes long and well thought out summaries. Or when Gerontocrat and Juan post newest data every day. Or when ASLR always looks out for new papers.

IMHO an outside user coming from Google or something should be able to directly see the credibility of a person. I find the like system is perfect for this purpose.
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blumenkraft

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #377 on: August 31, 2019, 10:34:49 AM »
I'm sure if the 'like' option was at the bottom of a post rather than the top it would be used more . Scrolling  back to the top of a post is not always going to happen esp. one with lots of graphs or weather forecasts .. even those that deserve to be licked .. b.c.

Good point!
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kassy

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #378 on: August 31, 2019, 07:07:31 PM »
It might also be a function of how much you used them before.

If this is the first forum you join then you might not even think about them. So much to read.

If you have been on forums before you might use them a bit more. I read this for ages before signing up so in the first weeks i basically put likes on posters i really liked over the years.

I still only like stuff i really like but some days the great GIFS and detailed analyses just keep popping up.  ;D
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HapHazard

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #379 on: August 31, 2019, 10:13:13 PM »
I toss them out quite liberally for posts that add to the topic at hand. Kind of like how Reddit's up/down vote system is supposed to be used. Although I feel like I do shortchange our best posters - my finger only has so many clicks in it per day! Anyway, it's nothing more than a bit of thanks + encouragement, in case the poster likes likes.

Aporia_filia

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #380 on: September 02, 2019, 11:39:52 AM »
I know many users dislike the Like system as it reminds of social media and frivolities rather than science. If you look at some of the traditional top posters that "ruled" the forum, posters whom I highly admire, you will see zero or near-zero likes given. I can identify with this approach, as I dislike social media and its frivolities.
However, I personally do use it to show appreciation without constantly derailing threads, and to give active and contributing posters a positive feedback. I use an adaptive threshold algorithm: I especially give Likes to new users, but require progressively higher contributions from top posters.
I mostly Like posts that are very much spot on when dealing with difficult to explain subjects, that bring a personal perspective or real life case pertinent to the discussion, or that take an effort to generate (number crunching, complex graphs, animations, repetitive daily or weekly updates of an important topic).
I agree with the beginning of the quote, but also feel sorry for not using the like. I love Terry's Ramen!!! You can see what is liked and who likes. I don't have enough time to log in, read and write back all I find very interesting. Reading something that was written some days ago and bringing it back just for that feels a bit unpolite.
The information you can take from the likes is very, very, biased. Older people use it less than youngers, you have admitted that you use it as a tool to encourage new members. All years before likes are ignored... Anyway, for me, just not knowing what is liked makes this option a superficial social game which is only interesting for Facebook's obscure knowledge. I don't think it is very healthy for social purposes. Here it shouldn't be a matter of being more socially attractive, but of offering more interesting things. The importance is in the message not in the messenger.

MyACIsDying

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #381 on: September 02, 2019, 12:19:30 PM »
I'll use likes like oren does, when I want to appreciate efforts, because not using at all seems so dickish. I'd rather have it called thanks or something. Using it to to show agreement means an opinion can be valued higher without providing arguments like a forum should, which in turn creates an echo chamber atmosphere around any ideologically colored discussions. There's plenty of social media platforms for that.

blumenkraft

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #382 on: September 02, 2019, 05:25:40 PM »
All hail the avatar gods! \o/

Glad to see Gerontocrat having a fitting avatar now.
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blumenkraft

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #383 on: September 15, 2019, 07:36:27 PM »
The freezing season is about to start again and we need to give space to the professionals that don't like us amateurs messing up their thread. That's why I created this "thread for dummies" (aka people without a scientific background) that are concerned about the climate and want to discuss it without being bitched by the "professionals".
bitched by the "professionals" ?

ooooo! miaow

I can bitch! Does that make me a professional too?


Let me bitch a little too, please. :)

To the professionals, please give new users time to acclimate to the dynamics of the forum. This is a very different place than some other social media outlets, so stay patient.

When someone misbehaves in your view, please stay kind. Most of the newbs mean well but are not aware of the etiquette. Take Tom, who got massive hate for opening new threads. I mean, what the fuck? Heard of proportionality gentlemen?

Freegrass is here to learn and he found his animations to be a positive contribution. Others encouraged him including me and when i asked him to make the file size (way) smaller he immediately complied. Yes, one can ask nicely.

Here is to the new users, perhaps observe the space a little before jumping in too fast. Ask more if there is something unclear! Don't get frustrated if there is no answer right away, ask again.
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oren

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #384 on: September 15, 2019, 07:50:21 PM »
To newbies - remember there are hundreds of readers. Don't be offended by a couple of posters who criticize you. Fix what you can, but feel free to ignore what you can't fix.

kassy

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #385 on: September 15, 2019, 11:20:47 PM »
please give new users time to acclimate to the dynamics of the forum.

That is BS. You can read all you want to get the tone but then you can start posting in different ways.

A single post here and there doesn´t hurt but some come in and do a ton of posts.

If these manage to derail either the most important threads of the forum or threads all around the forum with links that are often not really relevant to the topics then of course there is a backlash. Plus it was already a noisy season...or lets say it started of with someone really not interested in acclimatizing. 
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nanning

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #386 on: September 16, 2019, 05:26:24 AM »
Dear kassy, while I appreciate your argument and your posts in general, this made me respond:

<snip>
That is BS. You can read all you want to get the tone

Posted in the Forum Decorum thread.
I don't like to read those expressions. I think that you are better than this :) .
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vox_mundi

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #387 on: September 20, 2019, 05:10:34 PM »
https://phys.org/news/2019-09-convictions-good-isnt.html

... the key to understanding why people are prone to turn straightforward disagreements into matters of conviction lies in understanding what convictions are in the first place.

A conviction isn't just a strongly held belief. I strongly believe that two and two make four, but that doesn't rise to the level of a conviction.

Convictions are about what matters to us. Most importantly, they signify to others what kind of person—parent, friend, citizen—we take ourselves to be. They reflect our self-identity. It is this fact that makes a conviction feel so certain, so right.

... people do change their minds about such things, but the connection between conviction and identity helps to explain why it is so difficult for them to do so—even when the evidence points in the other direction.

People's convictions reflect the kind of person they aspire to be, and as a result they are ready to make all sorts of sacrifices for them—including sacrificing the facts and logic if need be.

And because it is connected to a person's identity, giving up a conviction—even admitting it might need some improvement—feels like an act of self-betrayal and a betrayal of their tribe.

People's identities, particularly political identities, are not formed in isolation. We construct them by adopting opinions that are woven into larger cultural stories of the tribes we want to remain a part of.

The stories become about who "we" are, who "they" are, why we are right and they are wrong. ... As a result, opinions about questions that should be settled by empirical data —like the safety of vaccines or the effectiveness of a wall for stemming illegal immigration or the reality of climate change – end up being absorbed into a larger identity-shaping story. They become convictions and immune to evidence.

... When people are unaware that convictions can seem principled while actually being blind, they are helpless in the face of the conviction machine. And that helplessness makes their stories—their very identities—vulnerable to being hijacked by those who feed off tribalism and focus conviction-inspired rage into an ideology of contempt and hate.
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

HapHazard

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #388 on: September 20, 2019, 05:47:58 PM »
It would all be so much easier if we were Vulcan.

grixm

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #389 on: September 20, 2019, 06:38:49 PM »

be cause

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #390 on: September 20, 2019, 07:31:18 PM »
   .. ^^^ clear evidence that off topic posts should be avoided .. :)  .. b.c.
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 ...

philopek

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #391 on: September 20, 2019, 07:59:59 PM »
   .. ^^^ clear evidence that off topic posts should be avoided ..  .. b.c.

Or tolerated. The complainers are a minority that is bickering back and forth with culprits and their "lobby".

Compaints account for so many posts that if OT would be tolerated, especially considering the general energy consuming and derailing aggressive tone of complaint posts, things would be way more civil.

In addition to that, many OT posts are not as OT as they appear on first glance as i tried to elaborate earlier. If this forum should make a difference we have to discuss the root causes of the obvious (visible misbehaviours) and those causes are mostly laying human behaviours that are rooted in totally OT fields of expertise.

So if people start to discuss whether it's better to drive BEVs or ICEs, i have to go OT to explain that they should drive LESS, smaller and lighter cars, more efficient and less for bragging and for fun cars and once that's done we would have cut emissions down to 10-20% of current emission level and THEN we should switch to BEVs and Hydrogen Fuel Cell Cars on THAT level and then we would be down to 5-10% emission.

This is just an example but it applies to almost any topic in one or another way. In the traffic section it applies quite directly and in the science threads it emerges from the presented reasoning.

This does not mean that we should discuss criss cross but if we are goint to restrict OT, then it would be appropriate that complaining about OT should be even more restricted, restricted exclusively to admins and moderators.

All this should start with clear forum rules that will enforced with warnings, moderation and banns based on clear rules and reduced to really important fails like rudeness of any kind.

As a participant in dozens of fora I see almost any kind of management and there definitely are some that are managed in an almost perfect manner like i.e. XDA-Developers forum for android developer community.

THIS is NOT a complaint, just brainstorming and it's also not a vote for LIMITLESS OT, of course not, but complaints and other policing attempts should be banned way before a meaningful OT post IMO

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #392 on: September 20, 2019, 08:04:51 PM »
   .. ^^^ clear evidence that off topic posts should be avoided .. :)  .. b.c.
I thought the graph was clear evidence that on topic posts don't have a chance!  :o

Is the Arctic half melted or half still frozen?
Woops:  Is the Arctic three-quarters melted or one-quarter still frozen?   :'(
per Latest PIOMAS update
« Last Edit: September 20, 2019, 09:35:27 PM by Tor Bejnar »
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things.

HapHazard

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #393 on: September 21, 2019, 12:57:12 AM »
If the red disappears, so does the orange.

If the orange disappears, the red remains and more than likely grows. Heck, the blue could shrink.

Should really throw some green in there, too. Just to spruce it up a bit. Label it "complaining about posts that complain about off-topic posts".

Niall Dollard

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #394 on: September 21, 2019, 02:28:07 AM »
Tis a quiet night/day, Tom.

Sometimes this can happen. Maybe it is just the end of a long season.

sark

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #395 on: September 21, 2019, 04:50:13 AM »
Confused bot.
I am not a scientist

Pmt111500

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #396 on: September 21, 2019, 05:34:24 AM »
Confused bot.
I've thought that maybe Tom just searches a whole bunch of climate tangential articles and posts them in series here. Gotta wonder what his desktop looks like before posting. 1:34 - c.9:30 between posts.
Cooling the outside by heat pump.

sark

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #397 on: September 21, 2019, 05:57:02 AM »
That is good.  I worry about some people though.
I am not a scientist

GrauerMausling

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #398 on: September 21, 2019, 07:56:47 AM »
Confused bot.

I'm using the 'Show unread post since last visit' feature and even though Tom is on my ignore list his posts still show up there. So yes, I like the days where this 'bot' is not posting way better.

blumenkraft

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #399 on: September 21, 2019, 08:06:12 AM »
HEY! It's enough already guys!

How would you feel when people call you a bot, eh?
 
GrauerMausling, use the settings 'hide uses on ignore list'.
Refugees welcome