Forum Decorum

[Aporia_filia]

My support, pietkuip!
I don't want to say anything wrong about A-team. I did once and regret having done so. He is way too much respected in this forum, so any critics would bring bad emotions on to you.
But you are right and his answer is, at least, childish, in my humble opinion.
I worked more than 15 years in charge of a lab in Valencia University and we had to suffer a professor who was so full of himself that, in petit comite he would admit that his books were written not to be understood, that way he was considered more intelligent, so much that most people could not follow him. This extremely pathetic story is totally true.
I'm not saying this is the case with A-team, don't know enough of him. <snip, irrelevant, personal information; N.>
I'm adding these lines because I'm very conscious of all my mistakes, I admit my ignorance, but want to push for a bit of humbleness for everyone in this forum.
Cheers

[pietkuip]

<snip, irrelevant, personal information; N.>

[blumenkraft]

I would appreciate it if we stop talking about A-Team.

This is becoming awfully personal and, frankly, weird now.

[pietkuip]

I would appreciate it if we stop talking about A-Team.

This is becoming awfully personal and, frankly, weird now.

OK, but it was he who insisted on making this personal. Demanding to know who I was, four times. Stating insulting things about me. <snip, irrelevant, personal information; N.>

[blumenkraft]

You shouldn't feel insulted, Pietkuip. You have the truth on your side.

[oren]

Just my advice pietkuip, it is one thing to be right and one thing to be smart about it.
State your opinion clearly once (use less harsh language) and certainly don't continue back-and-forth arguing, especially if it's a one-on-one discussion. Readers here have eyes to see and brains to think and they will come to their own conclusions, have no fear. Even more importantly, don't make it personal and don't take it personal.

[Tom_Mazanec]

I think all A-team means is that a virologist or epidemiologist would be more reliable than Joe Shmo.
He’s just trying to find out if we know what we are talking about.
Now, he should cite actual virologists and epidemiologists if he thinks authorities are so great...don’t remember if he did that.

[pietkuip]

I think all A-team means is that a virologist or epidemiologist would be more reliable than Joe Shmo.

But this was Joe Shmo. Or a quack. And when it is about harmful medical advice, it is important to warn for that. Also with strong language.

It was A-team who was doubling down on this. And the advice he gave was supported by others.

And it was A-team who wanted to know who I was. Demanding this four times. Getting personal.

Yes, I used ridicule to attack the quackery he was peddling. I felt that was more appropriate than politely asking for a source.

[kassy]

The account A-team (of whom I know nothing) has three four times demanded to know who I am (in the Covid-19 thread).

Is there not a rule against that?

Well he did not ask your name or were your house lived. ;-)

It was more of a convoluted appeal to authority (Dr Robb is a Dr prove you are not a smuck) and the list got debunked somewhere below. Strange mix of awkward and amusing.

[HapHazard]

Just my advice pietkuip, it is one thing to be right and one thing to be smart about it.
State your opinion clearly once (use less harsh language) and certainly don't continue back-and-forth arguing, especially if it's a one-on-one discussion. Readers here have eyes to see and brains to think and they will come to their own conclusions, have no fear. Even more importantly, don't make it personal and don't take it personal.

Exactly this. Drop the attitude or nobody cares what you're saying.

The way Stephen replied to it later on is the way to do it.

[Neven]

pietkuip, I believe that if you put someone on your ignore list, they can no longer PM you.

[Tom_Mazanec]

Right, Neven. Ignore means no PMs.

[blumenkraft]

Yes, that's the default setting.

You can change the setting though.

Goto: Profile >> Modify profile >> Personal Messages

[blumenkraft]

Juan - r u OK ?

I wonder the same. Normally he tells us when he is AFK. 

[gandul]

Juan - r u OK ?

I wonder the same. Normally he tells us when he is AFK. 

Hey BK did I send you a PM yesterday? Not sure how this works cause it disappeared from Sent items. Thx

[blumenkraft]

Got ya, Gandul!

I'm fine. ... Sorry that I missed my post yesterday.

No worries, it was just unusual.

[Tor Bejnar]

Once humans are diminished greatly, Earth's CO2 and pollution control mechanisms will kick in 10-fold, and ice-extent will grow.
We must evolve...in the real sense of the word.

Now that is a major misunderstanding. Even if we stopped emittin all Co2 today, warming would continue for at least decades as Co2 stays in the atmosphere for quite long:
https://www.yaleclimateconnections.org/2010/12/common-climate-misconceptions-atmospheric-carbon-dioxide/

Now that is a major misunderstanding (to quote you). If humans are not polluting for some magical reason, the mechanisms of nature that pull CO2 and pollution from the air, land, and sea, kick-in, and are always 10 times more cleansing and restorative than scientists' expect. These are the scientific facts, but that discussion and scientific references are for another thread, which I have little interest in that discusion.

To draw out the challenging phenomena:

... the mechanisms of nature that pull CO2 and pollution from the air, land, and sea, kick-in, and are always 10 times more cleansing and restorative than scientists' expect. These are the scientific facts, ...

I'd love to see the scientific paper that demonstrates scientists are always an order of magnitude off on atmospheric CO2 reduction mechanisms! 

Sometimes, however, the word "science" is used to declare "my opinion" (or "my political stand") instead of "a careful, usually repeatable, test of data."

[nanning]

COVID-19 rabbits.
Why are others not getting bored with following the pandemic every day? Is there any news? Every day? I don't understand this behaviour and it's a pity that good posts are not getting the attention and reaction they deserve.
Perhaps if I snap my fingers ...
Maybe clap my hands ...
Do a crazy dance ...
No ...
No change
That's familiar 

[sailor]

Everyone does that here.
But the new moderators are fake-name lurkers with no real personage. Basically hiding behind their fake names. Angry, cilique-forming, prejudiced trolls at best.

I have the research for what I said. It's like asking for evidence that the Earth is round. But I'm outta here, now that 'seaicesailor' or some other fake guy is moderating with their latest fake-name, after they got banned several times in the past. Not interested.

Thomas, why your obsession with seaicesailor? I've been in lurker mode mostly since past melting season, but your obsession is really striking. After so many years?
As far as I remember, I (or seaicesailor, if you wish to believe it) critiqued your constant use of those, IMHO, horrendous DMI thickness maps or the similar ones from Norway institute in 2015/2016 and in 2019. Not much more!

I have not attacked you with any other name, I am not TeaPotty as you were obsessed with last year, or Oren or Blumencraft or Be.cause (well done Neven, I hope this gives you the time you need, but one question, what happens if one moderator has to moderate another moderator? let's hope that does not come to happen).

Thomas, I am going back to lurking mostly, be sure I won't be attacking you under another name. Believe me. Arctic weather, ice destruction by mechanical ways,  Arctic currents and eddies mixing up waters of different temperature and even salinity, and buoys is the stuff I most enjoy, and I think right now all those fronts are very well covered by others. I will contribute if I find something new to the forum.

[Jim Hunt]

Has anybody else been receiving abusive PMs from Thomas, or am I the only lucky one?

[HapHazard]

In my experience, the best way to find out who the rabble-rousers are is to change staff.

Humans are interesting creatures.

[KiwiGriff]

... the mechanisms of nature that pull CO2 and pollution from the air, land, and sea, kick-in, and are always 10 times more cleansing and restorative than scientists' expect. These are the scientific facts, ...

This one  flux capacitor has .

[uniquorn]

The Fram export via SAR. Saturday to Sunday, 9 frames (because last Sunday flight path sucked).

Disappointed to see a moderator employing poor use of language on the main thread

[KiwiGriff]

That comment says far more about you than it says about Herr blumenkraft .

[uniquorn]

probably. But on a scientific thread, what did the flight path suck?

[kassy]

So it is not about the word but sticking to technical issues in the most serious subforums and threads. Thoughts about BOE can go into that thread instead of Melting Season etc.

I think that is a good idea (and was it the flight path or clouds, just curious?).

[nanning]

That comment says far more about you than it says about Herr blumenkraft .

I wish people would stop with personal attacks like this. They are unbecoming. And perhaps should be moderated.

[blumenkraft]

... and was it the flight path or clouds, just curious?

If you watch the GIF, you will notice that the Sunday picture lacks a lot of shots all down the east Greenland coast. The satellite never flew over this region. Would the GIF start with this one, you couldn't make out movement for 2 days. I included the picture of the day before to fix this.

Clouds are usually not a problem with the radar pictures.

[nanning]

^^
I think that is off-topic here. Am I right? It is not clear to me.

edit: I observed a re-arrangement of threads and a focus on moving off-topic posts. It seems strict, that's why I ask.

[be cause]

ok .. to deal with this little run since a moderator expressed an opinion in unscientific language . Ok .. i guessed his meaning immediately .. perhaps non native speakers are not at my advantage .. BUT ..
  I really think it unfair not to allow a commentary that is reasonably self-explanatory alongside the facts .. which was the animation . And if I was to do otherwise , I would have to impose similar standards on everyone and that really would 'suck' !
 .
 .. just noticed your addition to your post , Nanning .. the rearrangement was done principally by Neven prior to handover . Not following the movement of posts myself .. I would pm the moderator responsible if you are unhappy with anything they have done as they may not be coming to this thread ever day ....
 
             wishing everyone a virus free summer , or winter if your'e 'down under' .. I've always been a rocker .. now I'm a mod . b.c.

               

[Archimid]

I think mods should have two accounts. One for posting as users and one for laying down the law.

The flair mods get is a problem for fair debate. Flair has the fully intended effect of inferring authority. Authority in scientific arguments should only come from the content of the argument, not flair or rank.

[nanning]

I agree with Archimid.
The green squares of authority are too much decoration I think.

To the moderators: I am not attacking you and am not interested in power or any of that. It's just that as it looks like it has become stricter (Neven was relaxed with off-topic posts), I want to see the moderators themselves obeying those rules, otherwise it is not clear to me.
I am one who makes many off-topic posts (sorry, not intentional) and am therefore more interested in changed off-topic moderation because it strongly applies to me.
I liked Neven's relaxedness about it. That's it guys, nothing more to it. I really appreciate that you have taken up this work! 

In other moderatored comments/posts sites, the moderators are not activily participating (I have no experience with other fora) so your double role is not easy I think. It's like a policeman who's wearing his uniform when going out with friends .

[blumenkraft]

I think mods should have two accounts.

I don't think so.

I want to see the moderators themselves obeying those rules

We never agreed on any rules.

I really appreciate that you have taken up this work!

Thank you. Accepting things how they are now would be one way to show your appreciation.

[oren]

If it's possible to get rid of the green squares displayed in moderator posts, I'm fine with that.

[Archimid]

That's an even better solution. Now you can post and debate without having the authority of those 5 green lines exerting undue influence over others. You can still banish us from ASIF existence on a whim.

[SteveMDFP]

COVID-19 rabbits.
Why are others not getting bored with following the pandemic every day? Is there any news? Every day? I don't understand this behaviour and it's a pity that good posts are not getting the attention and reaction they deserve.

This is the largest human disaster in 102 years, unfolding at relative light speed.  It's worth discussing here because we have here a collection of extraordinarily brilliant minds.  Don't doubt that discussions here can ripple outwards to have significant effects in the world.  In a year, this will all be history, and we can resume discussions of the relatively slower pace of ongoing environmental degradation.

[oren]

That's an even better solution. Now you can post and debate without having the authority of those 5 green lines exerting undue influence over others. You can still banish us from ASIF existence on a whim.

A. Authority is in the eye of the beholder. Those green things mean nothing, this is a scientific forum and the science is what dictates right and wrong. Just ignore this imaginary "rank".
B. Moderators cannot banish you, only Neven can do that, and he doesn't do that on whims anyway.

[be cause]

^^^ wot Oren says .. there's no one here on a power trip .
I know not where the the green squares came from and care not if they stay or go .
I'm Irish and I helped found the Green parties way back in the 80's having been an environmentalist since the 70's , having been led in that direction by a really great aunt as a child in the 60's .
  I have always lived simply .. just because .. b.c.

[Archimid]

I'm not accusing anyone of a power trip.

The green bars are there literally to signal authority. That is necessary for many of the duties a mod is expected to perform.

However, that authority is also there when having arguments and not speaking as moderators. During that time the green bars are in detriment of the exchange of ideas.

Conversely, mods wearing green bars that engage in heated scientific or political and then later proven wrong make ASIF look bad.


I hope you understand that I type this with the best intentions of making ASIF better not a personal criticism of any of the new mods.

[igs]

I'm not accusing anyone of a power trip.

The green bars are there literally to signal authority. That is necessary for many of the duties a mod is expected to perform.

However, that authority is also there when having arguments and not speaking as moderators. During that time the green bars are in detriment of the exchange of ideas.

Conversely, mods wearing green bars that engage in heated scientific or political and then later proven wrong make ASIF look bad.

I hope you understand that I type this with the best intentions of making ASIF better not a personal criticism of any of the new mods.

One of the downsides of Authority that is absolutely necessary is, that an authority has authority as long as it has authority even thought the person or body who executes that authority can be wrong.

I've seen this in the over hundred fora i attend to and it has never been an extraordinary problem but in border-cases has to be digested as it is or chose to opt out IMHO.

There are moderators in any forum i attend that use a secondary accout but it's their own choice, neither mandatory nor prohibited.

A moderator who is wise COULD if he/she wishes so choose a solution along that path but it has to be optional.

[KiwiGriff]

The bars are a little.

But as long as we can still have a thread to examine any action without fear of unilateral consequence who cares?
I have enough faith in both the mods and the members ability to thrash out any dispute in a constructive way.

[Neven]

I have removed the green bars.

[kassy]

It's just that as it looks like it has become stricter (Neven was relaxed with off-topic posts),

...

In other moderatored comments/posts sites, the moderators are not activily participating (I have no experience with other fora) so your double role is not easy I think. It's like a policeman who's wearing his uniform when going out with friends .

Neven was pretty busy.

There is nothing wrong with being on topic.

There are plenty of places to discuss BoE timing but not the Current Melt Season Thread.
Masks were split of from the Covid thread for a reason but people sometimes forget.

I changed the Covid recession thread so supply shortages could go into there too instead of getting added to Climate Change, the Ocean and Food where they are off topic.

Modding is more like being a janitor. Moving posts to the correct threads.
And if people pick up on that you don´t need to do that much.

You don´t mod the arguments. You just discuss them.

And one off topic post can lead to tons more. There was this really annoying string in last years MYS thread where a bunch of people commented on some OT and they all said the right thing but they also said the same stuff and used way too much words for over a page and it was not about the 2019 melt season. I just wanted to read about the 2019 melt season there.

And that happened in other threads too.

If i click on thread X in area Y i just prefer the posts to be about that and not something different.

[Archimid]

That's great. I hope it works out. Thanks again to all the new "stealth" mods.

[HapHazard]

Meanwhile, Neven's bars of ultimate authority was never an issue, and he's a regular poster. How people handle change is amusing.

[KiwiGriff]

[bluice]

Thanks for the good modding Kassy

[HapHazard]

Amen to that, KiwiGriff. I probably use the "herding cats" idiom too often IRL. haha But it definitely & accurately reflects modding!

[oren]

Well said Kassy.

[Phoenix]

I have a question about the hierarchy of the forum and how the Covid-19 discussion falls into the AGW section.

It seems like there is an interest in collapse related topics here and AGW is a very large, but not complete subset of the larger collapse topic.

Just thinking out loud here since things are being modified....should the AGW section be renamed to include a broader definition?"AGW and Other Risks to Humanity"? Is it appropriate to start a thread on the general risk of civilization collapse? If so, where would that best fit?