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vox_mundi

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #800 on: June 29, 2020, 12:38:11 AM »
I'm a scientist, also, and truth has always been my North Star.

Veritatem cognoscere ruat cælum et pereat mundus
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

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wili

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #801 on: June 29, 2020, 12:52:45 AM »
Rod, I appreciate your concern, but really, isn't that what the ASI Blog is for? Am I missing something?

(And I'd love to hear your explanation of what is and isn't 'radical,' but that would involve you in a political conversation, I guess...so maybe not?  :-\ )
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Rod

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #802 on: June 29, 2020, 12:59:26 AM »
Forget it.  I should never have opened my big mouth.

I knew people would be upset by my suggestion.  I still think it is a good idea.

However, I know it is impossible for me to convince most of the current users that it is a good idea.

Let’s just carry on.  You saw my recommendation.  If everyone is against it that is how it goes down. I don’t want to die on this hill.  Carry on with business as usual if that is what everyone wants.

Freegrass

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #803 on: June 29, 2020, 01:53:57 AM »
May I suggest opening a new thread with a poll about your suggestion Rod. I think it's actually not a bad idea. Users here get lost in all kinds of discussions that have nothing to do with with the climate and hardly post anything about the Arctic Sea Ice anymore. You've got my vote!
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nanning

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #804 on: June 29, 2020, 03:57:23 AM »
Please no more polls.

Let us be happy with and celebrate the existence of this forum; its general high level, its stability and functionality, its international character, its good and relaxed moderators and its vast scope.
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KiwiGriff

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #805 on: June 29, 2020, 05:51:33 AM »
Quote
Let us be happy with and celebrate the existence of this forum; its general high level, its stability and functionality, its international character, its good and relaxed moderators and its vast scope.
Well said nanning.
 Plus one.
Politics is a necessary evil .
It is the only way we will save humanity from the result of our uncontrolled experiment in atmospheric physics.
If you don't want to play in the politics threads don't if you think someone is too political block them for your own piece of mind.
  Problem solved.
Without intruding on others desire to discus the subject.
“If you are part of a society that votes, then do so. There may be no candidates and no measures you want to vote for ... but there are certain to be ones you want to vote against. In case of doubt, vote against. By this rule you will rarely go wrong.”

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oren

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #806 on: June 29, 2020, 08:39:08 AM »
In any case, Neven runs this forum and has stated clearly he desires the political section to be a part of it (I have argued to the contrary to no avail, so I remember the result well).
For peace of mind, be aware there are some scientists with known identities that post here from time to time, and I doubt a scientist can be held accountable for stuff others post, especially in threads he or she is not even participating in and has never read. Never mind that some radical stuff gets posted from time to time in the science threads and certainly in the policy/solutions/consequences threads, so anyone who is concerned by radical posts would have the same problem after the political section was cast away.

bluice

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #807 on: June 29, 2020, 09:13:02 AM »
IMO the good thing about political section is that moderators can direct all political discussions there. Otherwise people would be discussing Trump on every thread.

If anything, there are topics on general AGW section that could be moved to Rest or Politics

greylib

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #808 on: June 29, 2020, 11:47:43 AM »
Over seven years of membership of ASIF, I've posted 55 times. (Up to the beginning of this year, it was only 18 posts.) That's because I'm here to learn, without the background knowledge to be able to say much. This year, there have been several threads where I felt I could offer a meaningful contribution - hence the tripling of my post count. The posts I'm really interested in are the ones which supply evidence, and those that make reasoned, professional commentary on that evidence.

As others have said, a few posters like to jump in with pet  theories, and then stay for endless arguments about them. Normally I scroll through these, but it does take time that many professionals don't have.

I don't know the details of Simple Machines Forum software, but I've been involved with similar in the past. Is there any function for making certain threads "read only except by invitation"? If so, a thread like "2020 Sea Ice area and extent data" could be split into:

2020 Sea Ice area and extent - data (read only)
2020 Sea Ice area and extent - discussion

In the first thread, posting would be restricted to those people who have proved that they can provide facts, and discuss them in a sound, sensible manner. The second thread, open to all, would be for everyone and everything else. Extra work for admin and moderators, but it would cut down on the number of complaints, and provide a clean "reference" thread for scientific professionals or journalists who want to look up the facts.
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oren

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #809 on: June 29, 2020, 12:44:16 PM »
I think there are certain respectable users who would be encouraged to post more if they had a blog-like thread rather than a free-for-all thread, and who would increase the overall value of the forum, though at some cost to free speech. But this depends on technical capabilities which I am guessing the forum doesn't have.

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #810 on: June 29, 2020, 03:21:45 PM »
I think there are certain respectable users who would be encouraged to post more if they had a blog-like thread rather than a free-for-all thread, and who would increase the overall value of the forum, though at some cost to free speech. But this depends on technical capabilities which I am guessing the forum doesn't have.

This approach seems to be working well at ASIF absent any specific technical capability.

Most of the threads have one or a few frequent users who keep the ball rolling with content and the community as a whole seems to do a great job of respecting their boundaries.

igs

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #811 on: June 29, 2020, 09:02:12 PM »

I understand the people who are opposed.  It is just my personal suggestion that I think might be a good idea. If everyone else disagrees, I’m good with that too.

Your point is valid as an opinion or topic that can be discussed indeed. I'm newer agains proposals that make sense, independent of whether they represent my opinion or not.

Let me throw in however a point to consider:

If you would like to keep this or any forum of this kind strictly science oriented, that would reduce the number of allowed posters as well as the long lasting interest of many members.

That as a result would finally lead to an internal discussion and lose attraction to the general public and then we we would end up where every strictly scientific platform ends, a kind of "inbreeding" situation that wouldn't have a large reach.

Now if is understand this correctly this forum should be a tool to reach as many earthlings as possible, as many that have developed an interest on the topic(s) at hand.

What is more valuable in the long run ?

IMO it's that we would best end up with 7'000'000'000 people who care for AGW and other ethical, political and environmental topics to an extend that's good enough for a change.

What do you think, just curious, because generally flexibility in the sense of open mindedness is not one of the most widely spread
virtues all around IMO.
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Freegrass

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #812 on: June 29, 2020, 09:37:54 PM »
If it really is the goal of this forum to be a tool to reach as many earthlings as possible then the long timers really need to stop attacking new members that are trying to contribute. There's way to much bitching about members on this forum to grow larger. That's why so many have left.
If every 8 year old in the world is taught meditation, we will eliminate violence from the world within one generation.

igs

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #813 on: June 29, 2020, 10:01:18 PM »
If it really is the goal of this forum to be a tool to reach as many earthlings as possible then the long timers really need to stop attacking new members that are trying to contribute. There's way to much bitching about members on this forum to grow larger. That's why so many have left.


That's exactly what i was heading at and in additon to that people who think either outside the box, bring fresh winds/thoughts and are perhaps kind of multitalents without a narrow field of expertise should be welcome because exptertdom brought us to where we stand, now we need people with the bigger picture who make use of expert's knowledge while experts in one or another way mostly rule and since the just and ethical moves mostly produce less profits the evil share of experts currently prevails ( in the world, not necessarily in this forum but it still shows )
Knowledge that does not increase every day will decrease every day !

HapHazard

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #814 on: June 29, 2020, 10:48:38 PM »
I'd rather have less posts which are correct than more which are erroneous. (I'm talking about the Cryosphere sub-section; I ignore everything else besides this little bit here)

Rocking the boat isn't bad in & of itself, but at some point the boat needs to stabilize. Otherwise you get a bunch of seasick people (at best) or it totally capsizes (at worst).

greylib

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #815 on: June 29, 2020, 10:55:38 PM »
I think there are certain respectable users who would be encouraged to post more if they had a blog-like thread rather than a free-for-all thread, and who would increase the overall value of the forum, though at some cost to free speech. But this depends on technical capabilities which I am guessing the forum doesn't have.
The technical capabilities look to be there. I've taken a quick look at the Simple Machines Forum software that drives ASIF, and it has the two main items needed: Member Groups and Variable Permissions. I can't say how easy it would be to implement, but it certainly looks possible.
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Freegrass

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #816 on: June 29, 2020, 11:19:49 PM »
I'd rather have less posts which are correct than more which are erroneous. (I'm talking about the Cryosphere sub-section; I ignore everything else besides this little bit here)

Rocking the boat isn't bad in & of itself, but at some point the boat needs to stabilize. Otherwise you get a bunch of seasick people (at best) or it totally capsizes (at worst).
That's what you need a melting season for experts, and a melting season for amateurs. Make two threads and make it clear that one is for experts only. That way the bickering can hopefully end.

I really hate the insinuation that questions can be "stupid". That's why I made a new thread some time ago. I really hope they would at least change the title of the "Stupid Questions" thread to maybe "The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies" as I called it? But at least make two melting and freezing season threads.

If it really is the goal of this forum to be a tool to reach as many earthlings as possible then the long timers really need to stop attacking new members that are trying to contribute. There's way to much bitching about members on this forum to grow larger. That's why so many have left.

That's exactly what i was heading at and in additon to that people who think either outside the box, bring fresh winds/thoughts and are perhaps kind of multitalents without a narrow field of expertise should be welcome because exptertdom brought us to where we stand, now we need people with the bigger picture who make use of expert's knowledge while experts in one or another way mostly rule and since the just and ethical moves mostly produce less profits the evil share of experts currently prevails ( in the world, not necessarily in this forum but it still shows )

Amen Igs!
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HapHazard

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #817 on: June 29, 2020, 11:21:12 PM »
I remember we did the same thing on our forum, but IIRC it ran on phpBB. (heavily modded) Anyway, sub-forums & individual threads could be limited on a user-class basis and/or per-individual; as in, posting ability & even visibility. (for individual, I had the ability to simply tick a box on the user's profile page, as well as point that permission box to threads)

[edit] Yeah, FG, I never liked the title of that thread, either. Even if we know it's tongue-in-cheek, it still feels off-putting for new folks.

Freegrass

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #818 on: June 29, 2020, 11:35:40 PM »
Or create an entirely new Topic called "The Professionals". The moderator there will know who they are, and so could delete all messages from people who don't belong in that section. Amateurs can always quote messages from that topic to debate in their own threads.

Problem solved...
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KiwiGriff

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #819 on: June 30, 2020, 12:33:21 AM »
That's what you need a melting season for experts, and a melting season for amateurs. Make two threads and make it clear that one is for experts only. That way the bickering can hopefully end.

Because experts on one topic do not know all about every thing .
Some times a non sea ice expert can have a deeper understanding than an sea ice expert.
One example where I contributed to a technical discussion here on the movement of calved Ice.
Some one who is a lot more knowledgeable in the subject was proposing that the tension in an ice shelf would have an effect on a burg once it had carved .
Having spent decades messing around on the the ocean i can tell you that any energy imparted on an object is very quickly dissipated in water. especially if it is a irregular shape. The energy a burg receives from the tensions in an ice shelf   at calving would dissipate into the surrounding water  within a few minutes of carving. You can see that graphically demonstrated if you watch a few  ship launches on google.

Quote
An expert knows more and more about less and less until he or she knows everything about nothing.
Corollary
Quote
A generalist knows less and less about more and more until he or she knows nothing about everything.

The issue is one of personality.
Two to tango.
Try not to have the last word all the time and the arguments go away.
Many details are unknown to even the worlds experts.
State your case as clearly as you can preferably with peer reviewed support and leave it at that rather than endlessly try to prove someone wrong. Leave it up to the  bystanders to look at what You have said  rather than try to score points and "win" all the time.

Maybe the mods should step in more often when such arguments get to the point of thread disruption.
A genial agree to differ please and lets go on to more productive discussions might help.

Edited for typos.
Because I am a functionally illiterate ignoramus....
 
« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 06:58:38 AM by KiwiGriff »
“If you are part of a society that votes, then do so. There may be no candidates and no measures you want to vote for ... but there are certain to be ones you want to vote against. In case of doubt, vote against. By this rule you will rarely go wrong.”

― Robert A. Heinlein, Time Enough for Love

Freegrass

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #820 on: June 30, 2020, 01:02:29 AM »
It is not because you have a section that is only reserved for professionals that the discussion you had before could never happen again. I'm sure those professionals will still contribute to the forum as it is now. Nothing really changes. The only difference is that when you create a new section for professionals only, that this will become a valuable resource for reference for everyone without all the noise. Everyone will know that everything in that section is written by real scientist who know what they are talking about.

Those professionals who only want to have a discussion with other professionals can choose do so. Those that want to mingle with the meager crowd, can also choose do so, in the knowledge that their messages will probably be drowned in amateur hour. When they come to learn something new in amateur hour, they can write about it in the professional section for future reference and to debate it with their peers.

For every professional there will be a bio page so that everyone knows who those professionals are and what their specialty is. Without a bio page, you will not be allowed to post in that section.

It's simple and elegant, and nothing really changes to this forum. You just add something new to bring back those you have lost because they got sick and tired of people like me who love to debate the arctic but are basically amateurs.

Trying to get rid of people like me sends the wrong signal. Just be happy I care.
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vox_mundi

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #821 on: June 30, 2020, 01:06:56 AM »
Note: This is not directed at anyone in particular, it's just an observation ...

It may not be so much a question of professional vs amateurs but winnowing out the cases of Dunning–Kruger effect. This applies to both groups.

... It is hard to fill a cup that is already full.
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Phoenix

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #822 on: June 30, 2020, 01:11:44 AM »
I think the current situation is fine. There is probably no utopia to be found here. If the discussion stays focused on substance and not on identity or rank or popularity, the chances of success are very good.

I like Kiwi Griff's suggestion of a genial "agree to disagree" when an impasse is reached.

Freegrass

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #823 on: June 30, 2020, 01:18:19 AM »
Note: This is not directed at anyone in particular, it's just an observation ...

It may not be so much a question of professional vs amateurs but winnowing out the cases of Dunning–Kruger effect. This applies to both groups.

... It is hard to fill a cup that is already full.
Quote
In the field of psychology, the Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people with low ability at a task overestimate their ability. It is related to the cognitive bias of illusory superiority and comes from the inability of people to recognize their lack of ability. Without the self-awareness of metacognition, people cannot objectively evaluate their competence or incompetence.
That's exactly what I mean. Looking down on people is a bad habit, and it happens way too often on this forum.
If every 8 year old in the world is taught meditation, we will eliminate violence from the world within one generation.

be cause

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #824 on: June 30, 2020, 01:25:47 AM »
and just @ every thought above has been raised by me over the years .. from changing the stupid Q title to hiving off the politics .
 Idiot that I was , I came here to learn and access the knowledge and leads of those already busy providing access to a wealth of info . As a newbie I lurked .. probably took 2 years to make 100 posts . I appreciated what I had found ( invited here by Born From The Void .. an occasional visitor these days (and scientist) ) and have rarely missed a day in over 7 years .
 I pm'd A-team 10 days ago .. he's well and still active in the background . Funny , when I searched for A-team , a comment from Rod to Rich (Phoenix) appeared .

Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #65 on: July 14, 2019, 04:11:27 AM »
LikeQuote
Quote from: Rich on July 14, 2019, 03:59:57 AM
Rod,

Stop with the amateur mind reading.

....

That said, maybe some people think a newbie should just shut up and listen and not participate until after the world is condemned to a shitty outcome? We can agree to disagree about that.

I don't aspire to be popular and liked by anyone but I'm not doing anything with the intention of pissing anyone else off either. I'm not a troll. An asshole? OK. But not a troll. I'm genuine and transparent (which may be worse depending on your perspective).

Thanks for pointing out that I screwed up the quotation marks in that recent comment. I fixed it asap.

''This is bull shit.  We have all supported your right to post your theories even as a newbie.   I went to war for you with A-team when he tried to shut you up.''

I’m getting discouraged by the way you continuously say things that are on the fringe, and then pretend to be insulted when people point out your mistakes.

It has become very disruptive.

                     ......


 It was that sort of thing that caused me to offer my services in moderation . And that had nothing to do with the political threads but rather the politics and gamesmanship going on in the Cryosphere threads the last couple of seasons which has been a spur to A-team and others stepping back
 None of this helps the ice or educates anyone . I'd rather be everyone's friend and get on with watching the greatest show on earth until my gb's run out ( as they do most months )

..and as I (and Oren) say .. only Neven has a say .. b.c.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 11:52:25 AM by be cause »
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 + 2 = 2021 
 (phew)

Freegrass

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #825 on: June 30, 2020, 01:44:57 AM »
If every 8 year old in the world is taught meditation, we will eliminate violence from the world within one generation.

oren

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #826 on: June 30, 2020, 08:50:56 AM »
I changed the stupid questions thread title to:
"Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
Hopefully this will be more inviting to newbies and old-timers who have questions to ask.

blumenkraft

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #827 on: June 30, 2020, 08:52:29 AM »
That's a good idea, Oren! Well done.
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gandul

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #828 on: June 30, 2020, 09:55:44 AM »
@Oren as outrageous bbr claim can be, you should have responded in a post apart. Otherwise you're taking moderator privilege to highlight your own response, while not really moderating. I say this from the greatest respect to your labor.

Viggy

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #829 on: June 30, 2020, 10:11:22 AM »
@Oren as outrageous bbr claim can be, you should have responded in a post apart. Otherwise you're taking moderator privilege to highlight your own response, while not really moderating. I say this from the greatest respect to your labor.

Bbr has been repeating the same baseless story for the 4-5 yrs I’ve been lurking and posting here. There has never been any follow up or assessment in hindsight as Oren noted. I kinda view it as misinformation (not as egregious as a denialist) that deserves to be noted as such.

oren

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #830 on: June 30, 2020, 10:19:15 AM »
Thank you gandul for your comment, and you do have a point. My view of it is as Viggy noted, "I kinda view it as misinformation (not as egregious as a denialist) that deserves to be noted as such."
Had bbr not been banned from the forum, I might have been more gentle. As things stand, I have a duty to keep him under a tight leash. Any and all references to ice ages are to be removed or highlighted as nonsense. Hudson Bay sea ice is somehow part of this, so I make sure not to leave such claims uncontested.

bluice

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #831 on: June 30, 2020, 10:42:51 AM »
Note: This is not directed at anyone in particular, it's just an observation ...

It may not be so much a question of professional vs amateurs but winnowing out the cases of Dunning–Kruger effect. This applies to both groups.

... It is hard to fill a cup that is already full.
Exactly!

Discussion is very effectively killed by constant promotion of one's own pet theories that have no connection to reality. In effect it works like climate denialism. Nobody wants to spend time and energy to debunk claims that are ultimately pure nonsense.

It's a pleasure to see our Mods directing repetitive and/or baseless comments to other dedicated threads that nobody is forced to visit.

RikW

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #832 on: June 30, 2020, 11:45:48 AM »
Thank you gandul for your comment, and you do have a point. My view of it is as Viggy noted, "I kinda view it as misinformation (not as egregious as a denialist) that deserves to be noted as such."
Had bbr not been banned from the forum, I might have been more gentle. As things stand, I have a duty to keep him under a tight leash. Any and all references to ice ages are to be removed or highlighted as nonsense. Hudson Bay sea ice is somehow part of this, so I make sure not to leave such claims uncontested.

When I read his post I was already thinking "hey, another ice age incoming?" so I totally understand your edit.
Nevertheless, a reply on his post that where you say the same thing would probably get more attention.


I'd somehow also like to see a split in the season-topic; One where we discuss the current season, share interesting findings with each other and short-term predictions;

And one that covers topics/ pet-theory's that have been discussed/ are far-fetched/ long term predictions (5+ days f.e.) that are probably not true/ have been discussed again and again; But I don't think that will be easy to moderate;

F.e. the first time bbr mentioned his theory it could have been a interesting discussion/ insight, but when the general concensus was it's very unlikely to be true, you don't want it to clutter the main discussion thread.

HapHazard

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #833 on: June 30, 2020, 01:19:41 PM »
oren, if it was possible to "like" a mod-edit, I woulda liked the hell outta that one.

There's a lot of history with that poster, so as far as I'm concerned oren was being tactfully firm.

gandul

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #834 on: June 30, 2020, 11:00:57 PM »
Thank you gandul for your comment, and you do have a point. My view of it is as Viggy noted, "I kinda view it as misinformation (not as egregious as a denialist) that deserves to be noted as such."
Had bbr not been banned from the forum, I might have been more gentle. As things stand, I have a duty to keep him under a tight leash. Any and all references to ice ages are to be removed or highlighted as nonsense. Hudson Bay sea ice is somehow part of this, so I make sure not to leave such claims uncontested.
No, thanks to you. I really trust your criteria and the work of you guys.

Rod

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #835 on: July 03, 2020, 03:08:54 AM »
Thank you to the mods (and to Neven) for doing a very hard job!

We all want the best for our planet, and sometimes discussions get heated, and we get pissed off and say things we should not say.

I can say I’m guilty of that!  The best course of action moving forward is to take a deep breath and step away when a poster makes us mad.  Unfortunately, human nature makes that hard sometimes.

I applaud Neven and the mods for doing their best (in an unpaid and thankless job) to make that happen.

I understand the current structure (with respect to the political threads) is not likely to change, and I respect that. 

On a different note, FREEGRASS, you should not ever be afraid to post.  You are a valuable contributor. 




Freegrass

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #836 on: July 03, 2020, 03:32:43 AM »
Thanks Rod. That's much appreciated. :)
If every 8 year old in the world is taught meditation, we will eliminate violence from the world within one generation.

oren

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #837 on: July 08, 2020, 05:06:58 PM »
Phoenix has been put under moderation, with thanks to Neven. All should expect noise and disruption to subside, and can return to visiting rhe main thread.
Apologies to all who have had to suffer due to my delay in taking care of the matter.

HapHazard

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #838 on: July 08, 2020, 08:10:14 PM »
Phoenix has been put under moderation, with thanks to Neven. All should expect noise and disruption to subside, and can return to visiting rhe main thread.
Apologies to all who have had to suffer due to my delay in taking care of the matter.


blumenkraft

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #839 on: July 10, 2020, 06:43:05 PM »
Sam deleted his account.  :'(
"Is a thin line 'tween heaven and here" - Bubbles

Phoenix

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #840 on: July 12, 2020, 06:34:38 AM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echo_chamber_(media)

I'm attaching a link to the wikipedia entry for "echo chamber" and am interested to understand if the moderators at ASIF have any specific risk management concept in place to avoid this. Highlighted sections of the entry below.

By visiting an "echo chamber", people are able to seek out information that reinforces their existing views, potentially as an unconscious exercise of confirmation bias.

In an extreme "echo chamber", one purveyor of information will make a claim, which many like-minded people then repeat, overhear, and repeat again (often in an exaggerated or otherwise distorted form) until most people assume that some extreme variation of the story is true.

The echo chamber effect occurs online due to a harmonious group of people amalgamating and developing tunnel vision. Participants in online discussions may find their opinions constantly echoed back to them, which reinforces their individual belief systems due to the declining exposure to other's opinions.


the function of an echo chamber does not entail eroding a member's interest in truth; it focuses upon manipulating their credibility levels so that fundamentally different establishments and institutions will be considered proper sources of authority.

an echo chamber is an epistemic construct in which voices are actively excluded and discredited. It does not suffer from a lack in connectivity; rather it depends on a manipulation of trust by methodically discrediting all outside sources

Echo chambers, however, are incredibly strong. By creating pre-emptive distrust between members and non-members, insiders will be insulated from the validity of counter-evidence and will continue to reinforce the chamber in the form of a closed loop. Outside voices are heard, but dismissed.

This can create significant barriers to critical discourse within an online medium. Social discussion and sharing can potentially suffer when people have a narrow information base and don't reach outside their network.

Viggy

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #841 on: July 12, 2020, 07:15:54 AM »
I really hope someone is at least paying you for the condescending BS and lengthy attempts at derailing threads, Phoenix ...

Phoenix

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #842 on: July 12, 2020, 07:22:19 AM »
I really hope someone is at least paying you for the condescending BS and lengthy attempts at derailing threads, Phoenix ...

How would one distinguish between someone who made a post like this from a genuine empathetic impulse and someone who made it from a self serving impulse?

There seems to be a lot of mind reading going on here and its seems like a deflection to avoid discussing matters of substance.

As bl says, "play the ball, not the man".


blumenkraft

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #843 on: July 12, 2020, 07:53:55 AM »
I'm attaching a link to the wikipedia entry for "echo chamber" and am interested to understand if the moderators at ASIF have any specific risk management concept in place to avoid this.

Well, when someone derails threads, we put them on moderation.

The echo chamber thingy is partly inherent with the focus of this forum (i.e. we don't allow CC-denialism).

Would you like to see more CC-denial here? Would you like to see anyone banned who made a mistake? See, i don't think so either.

But i'm curious, Phoenix, what concrete measures do you think should be in place to circumvent becoming an echo chamber?

"Is a thin line 'tween heaven and here" - Bubbles

Viggy

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #844 on: July 12, 2020, 08:10:41 AM »

There seems to be a lot of mind reading going on here and its seems like a deflection to avoid discussing matters of substance.

As bl says, "play the ball, not the man".

Your last posts were about -10C in the tallest peaks of the Himalayas being weird weather and a continued insistence on discussing the surface temperature over sea ice centering around 0C being a harbringer of normalizing weather. Neither of those are matters of substance.

Echo chambers are inherent in opinion based forums because people gravitate to viewpoints that support their world view. Science and evidence based discussions are not opinions or viewpoints. Everything being discussed here, can ultimately be proven or disproven based on data and an application of scientific first principles.

A facetious and lengthy post about echo chambers here is about as genuine as posting the same to a medical forum discussing Covid and asking people to make sure to account for the views of covid denialists and anti-vaccers.

KiwiGriff

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #845 on: July 12, 2020, 08:13:19 AM »
Quote
Every man has the right to an opinion but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts. Nor, above all, to persist in errors as to facts.
1946. Bernard Baruch

“If you are part of a society that votes, then do so. There may be no candidates and no measures you want to vote for ... but there are certain to be ones you want to vote against. In case of doubt, vote against. By this rule you will rarely go wrong.”

― Robert A. Heinlein, Time Enough for Love

oren

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #846 on: July 12, 2020, 08:56:27 AM »
I'm attaching a link to the Wikipedia entry for "echo chamber" and am interested to understand if the moderators at ASIF have any specific risk management concept in place to avoid this.
Thank you for your concern.
I think the moderators are mostly grappling with the risk of one-person echo chambers disrupting the forum to no end while refusing to listen to any outside feedback. The risk is managed by putting said persons on moderation and subsequently if the behavior continues, banning them. This method is obviously not foolproof as the banned somehow find their way back in under different aliases, proving that you can change your name but not your character.
"By their pet theories thou shall know them".

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #847 on: July 12, 2020, 09:07:20 AM »
Well, when someone derails threads, we put them on moderation.

The echo chamber thingy is partly inherent with the focus of this forum (i.e. we don't allow CC-denialism).

Would you like to see more CC-denial here? Would you like to see anyone banned who made a mistake? See, i don't think so either.

But i'm curious, Phoenix, what concrete measures do you think should be in place to circumvent becoming an echo chamber?

I certainly don't think that CC denial should be tolerated. But the few CC deniers who are here are not in any way a threat to any potential confirmation bias at ASIF. They are cartoonish archetypes whose ideas are not (and should not be) taken seriously.

There is another tail in the distribution curve of AGW belief spectrum in which science might also be compromised on the side of overstating certain aspects of climate change. Such overstatement could perpetuate a false belief that climate action is hopeless.

Climate scientist Michael Mann says he gets more hate mail these days from people who claim he understates the threat than he does from deniers.

I am a hard core believer in the threat of AGW and a hard core activist. I blog here about the American progressive movement which has climate justice as a core part of its agenda. I don't fit any profile that one could associate with someone trying to derail legitimate concern and science associated with AGW. I value ASIF as a place where people can discuss legitimate concerns and solutions. There is a shortage of such places in my experience.

I have some rough ideas but I think its best to let people think about this a bit. In the interim, I would ask that the new management team consider some sort of mission statement which reflects a commitment to scientific integrity. I would ask people to consider whether it is legitimate to be concerned about messaging that potentially dissuades people from hoping for a solution if such messaging is not grounded in science.

I am a completely transparent contributor. I don't take any of the many allegations that I am disingenuous personally because I know that I am being 100 percent genuine. I certainly may be wrong from time to time but I try hard not to be and have acknowledged assumptions that don't come to fruition.  And I take the criticism to heart that some of my posts may be repetitive.

In the absence of any evidence or even a logical case being presented, I would ask that the management team adopt a policy of not allowing users to be accused of being disingenuous. As you say, "play the ball, not the man". The discrediting of users for reasons other than the substance of what they are posting is a hallmark of an echo chamber.

In the case of specific instances of concern relating to departures from science, I would like you and the rest of the management team and other users to suggest a process for resolution.


blumenkraft

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #848 on: July 12, 2020, 09:20:28 AM »
And I take the criticism to heart that some of my posts may be repetitive.

If this holds true, you are off moderation rather quickly, Phoenix.

Quote
In the absence of any evidence or even a logical case being presented, I would ask that the management team adopt a policy of not allowing users to be accused of being disingenuous.

I think i'm doing that. If something slips through, please use the 'report' button.
"Is a thin line 'tween heaven and here" - Bubbles

Phoenix

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #849 on: July 12, 2020, 09:21:18 AM »

I think the moderators are mostly grappling with the risk of one-person echo chambers disrupting the forum to no end.

This is a spurious comment. In the current circumstance, I am unable to post anything w/o moderator approval. I now have ZERO power to unilaterally disrupt.