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Author Topic: Forum Decorum  (Read 149456 times)

oren

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #850 on: July 12, 2020, 09:21:55 AM »
To be clear Phoenix, I do not think you are disrupting the forum on purpose or in the service of someone.
Yet to be clear, I think you are very much disrupting the forum nonetheless.
It is a sad truth that the people who do it without meaning to, are often incapable of taking the criticism constructively and mend their ways, because of the same character issue that causes them to be disruptive in the first place. Note I am no psychologist, merely an observer, but that has been my observation.

blumenkraft

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #851 on: July 12, 2020, 09:24:13 AM »
This is a spurious comment. In the current circumstance, I am unable to post anything w/o moderator approval. I now have ZERO power to unilaterally disrupt.

Cause and consequence!

Phoenix

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #852 on: July 12, 2020, 09:33:10 AM »
And I take the criticism to heart that some of my posts may be repetitive.

If this holds true, you are off moderation rather quickly, Phoenix.

Quote
In the absence of any evidence or even a logical case being presented, I would ask that the management team adopt a policy of not allowing users to be accused of being disingenuous.

I think i'm doing that. If something slips through, please use the 'report' button.

Thank you bl. I must say that for the time being, I believe it is best for all involved for me to remain on moderation.

The issue with being routinely accused of being disingenuous is not arising in the sub-forums you are moderating so I think its best for the other moderators to weigh in.

Viggy

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #853 on: July 12, 2020, 09:34:37 AM »
The delusions of someone who thinks his long winded posts equate to plausible deniability ...

The hubris of asking the hardworking moderation team, who he himself stresses out on daily basis, to censor dissent to his pointless, rambling word salads ...

They are cartoonish archetypes whose ideas are not (and should not be) taken seriously.

Oren has a lot more faith in humanity than me because your actions reek of intentionality to me. I am sorry if I come across harshly but I refuse to believe that people have this little capacity for self-reflection.

blumenkraft

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #854 on: July 12, 2020, 09:41:36 AM »
OK, at this point it might be wise to end this discussion. Thank you everyone contributing.

Now, have a nice Sunday everyone.

oren

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #855 on: July 12, 2020, 09:44:00 AM »
I have very little faith in humanity as a collective, but I do tend to give credit to humans as individuals.
Besides, I am a great believer in Hanlon's razor:
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" (or other character flaws).

Edit: sorry BL, wrote this before your comment.

igs

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #856 on: July 12, 2020, 07:12:23 PM »
I really hope someone is at least paying you for the condescending BS and lengthy attempts at derailing threads, Phoenix ...


[Wrote this before reading the end of discussion obviously ;) ]

Such a short reply without any argument against does in fact proof a point.

So someone makes a point from observation, the point is basically self-confirmed by the point in action.

My opinion, analyse where is truth and argue against where you see no truth.

Ridiculing or personal offenses won't do any good, never ever. Yes we can lose patience from time to time, some earlier, some later, but certainly not after such a well presented case.

Well presented means neither correct or incorrect, but to simply discard a case as condescending because people are afraid there might be some truth (of course there is, it's human nature) just confirms the point presented, hence it's not wise at all to react like this.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 07:19:30 PM by igs »

Phoenix

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #857 on: July 12, 2020, 07:14:06 PM »

But i'm curious, Phoenix, what concrete measures do you think should be in place to circumvent becoming an echo chamber?

I would ask that the new management team consider some sort of mission statement which reflects a commitment to scientific integrity.

I would ask people to consider whether it is legitimate to be concerned about messaging that potentially dissuades people from hoping for a solution if such messaging is not grounded in science.

I would ask that the management team adopt a policy of not allowing users to be accused of being disingenuous.

Just to be clear. You asked for substantive suggestions and I provided them.

In my opinion, these suggestions should be non-controversial and low hanging fruit for an ethical science minded community. Yet there has been no response or discussion of the substance of these suggestions.

Instead, the critics have employed the tools which I have highlighted in the wiki entry which are used to perpetuate an echo chamber. They are playing the person and not the ball.

I ask the folks at ASIF to look at the substance of the suggestions and either adopt them or provide a good rationale not to. The inability of a community to discuss seemingly non-controversial tools to protect against an echo chamber might be an unspoken acknowledgement that a problem exists. 

Viggy

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #858 on: July 12, 2020, 07:21:28 PM »
Im going to keep this short per BL's request. Evaluating a post without considering the context of the poster's previous content, is pointless. Go through his post history in the context of the threads they were posted in and its obvious that unrelated/misleading content has been a modus operandi.

Providing a long reply to a baseless post would only serve to legitimize it and I did not wish to aid in the derailment of the great discussion we have on this forum

gerontocrat

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #859 on: July 12, 2020, 07:32:10 PM »
I would ask that the new management team consider some sort of mission statement which reflects a commitment to scientific integrity. I would ask people to consider whether it is legitimate to be concerned about messaging that potentially dissuades people from hoping for a solution if such messaging is not grounded in science.
Every so often people start to want to mould the ASIF into a vehicle for themselves. Demanding a mission statement is often a prelude to a takeover bid.

Me? that's when I start to smell censorship - & that's when I start thinking about packing my bags and heading for the hills. The more different points of view on how all this mess is going to turn out the better. Don't try to fence me and the rest of us in.

(Bad behavior is a different story, as is being boring.)

"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

HapHazard

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #860 on: July 12, 2020, 07:46:50 PM »
Phoenix is their own echo chamber. They will never admit or see it. Classic backfire effect.

I'd have banned them ages ago.

kassy

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #861 on: July 12, 2020, 09:15:33 PM »
Quote
I would ask that the new management team consider some sort of mission statement which reflects a commitment to scientific integrity.

I would ask people to consider whether it is legitimate to be concerned about messaging that potentially dissuades people from hoping for a solution if such messaging is not grounded in science.

I would ask that the management team adopt a policy of not allowing users to be accused of being disingenuous.

Well we are a forum discussing the arctic and related stuff. Thus there is not so much scientific integrity but different people posting things. We love on topic debates.

Paragraph 2 should be rewritten for clarity.

As we are actually a forum where people post these accusations happen. We will comment when we think they are unfair.  :)

Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

Phoenix

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #862 on: July 12, 2020, 10:11:14 PM »


Demanding a mission statement is often a prelude to a takeover bid. Me? that's when I start to smell censorship....The more different points of view on how all this mess is going to turn out the better. Don't try to fence me and the rest of us in.


I'm trying to imagine an investigative journalist reading the forum, interviewing the moderators and key contributors at ASIF and trying to write an article describing what ASIF is.

You have a social club with no stated social purpose whatsoever that talks about AGW and sea ice and societal collapse and no consciously expressed preference for scientific integrity.

I'm on tilt. The lack of definition or purpose has thrown me off. Some of us crave structure. My weakness.


kassy

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #863 on: July 12, 2020, 10:34:08 PM »
Go out meet people built local structures. Enjoy!
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

Rod

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #864 on: July 12, 2020, 10:49:45 PM »

You have a social club with no stated social purpose whatsoever that talks about AGW and sea ice and societal collapse and no consciously expressed preference for scientific integrity.


This is just wrong on so many levels. I don’t know what gets discussed on the political threads. I stay away from there. But on the science threads we are all watching and doing our best to provide input on what we are seeing.

Sometimes we are wrong, but to say there is “no consciously expressed preference for scientific integrity” is bull shit!

We all try to back up our opinions with data and peer reviewed journals. You are the one who imposes your own theories that have no basis in science and then you get your feelings hurt when we try to show you the science.

This has become a circular nonstop debate that makes it frustrating to even open these forums anymore.

Phoenix

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #865 on: July 13, 2020, 12:12:16 AM »

I would ask people to consider whether it is legitimate to be concerned about messaging that potentially dissuades people from hoping for a solution if such messaging is not grounded in science.


Quote
Paragraph 2 should be rewritten for clarity.


I will do my best kassy.

The way I see it, your depiction of ASIF is accurate in describing ASIF as a place for discussion of certain topics. The discussion here is depicted as an end in itself and the ASIF community is neutral in terms of defining any objective related to social outcomes related to AGW.

Individual members of ASIF and non-members have a spectrum of orientation regarding potential social outcomes associated with AGW. Some are more optimistic about the possibility of salvaging something of human civilization and some are more pessimistic. There is no intention here to label either group as being more virtuous than the other.

I belong to the former group which maintains a sense that we are heading for something short of human extinction. This group believes that proactivity will determine the degree of system collapse and human suffering. Messaging to promote proactivity is thus desirable to this group.

There is a risk scenario that people become falsely convinced that circumstances are hopeless when in fact there is still hope. This potential for false belief could result in increased suffering if it causes people to give up.

So, there are two different levels of how this might play out at ASIF.

The first level is to simply acknowledge that this is a logical risk assessment in the absence of certainty. A person doesn't have to agree with my prognosis, but there can be a level of appreciation that reducing this risk is a logical motivation. I won't quit on my kids future and I don't want the world to quit on their future. In the absence of certainty, I am extremely motivated to question any beliefs which portray their future as beyond salvage. I have what doomers would call a high level of hopium. But I acknowledge that I may be wrong.

The appreciation that I fit this profile may help my  urgency to counter an unsubstantiated pessimistic outlook. I blog about the american progressive movement and celebrated some recent accomplishments with the elections and the sanders biden unity task force. In the melting season thread I am the oddball who focuses on the glass half full facts like the Beaufort Sea, high CAB volume, export math which tells us summer export is low and albedo math from Nico Sun and NSIDC which is less adverse than the that espoused by others.

Obviously, I'm more strident in my advocacy than some might appreciate, but it lets you know I'm not trying to troll ASIF for kicks. It gives the moderators a chance to reflect as to how to integrate people like this into the community?

Another and deeper level of thinking is a reflection as to whether ASIF feels any responsibility whatsoever in terms of an obligation to get things right. Does ASIF have any concerns that the platform is portraying information in a scientifically defensible fashion?

If CAB volume was 700km3 greater in 2020 last month than 2019 and Friv makes the claim that this will easily be overcome via export when summer export average 100km3, I argue the point because the science is on my side.

When Friv argues that preconditioning reduces albedo to .5-.6 and Nico Sun says that the number is
more like 0.75, I argue because I feel like the science is on my side.


Is there a recognition that ASIF has a platform and is a player in the world of shaping opinions which might influence people's inclination to take action? If there is such a recognition, do you feel any obligation that the platform is used responsibly?

There is a natural tension between a user such as Friv and myself. I want to see the world saved and he rooting for "inevitable' Armageddon. I think he's perfectly entitled to wish for whatever he wants but I'm competing with him in terms of trying to persuade others about what to believe. ASIF should acknowledge the natural tension and provide guidance as to how to proceed when Friv announces a position that is not supported by science or subject matter experts.

This can only be done if ASIF takes a position as to whether the platform is responsible for the messaging. If you are not actively invested in this, I will get run over. No decision is an abdication of responsibility.

(Note: this may be a new thing here. Maybe no else believes that individual action matters or in the corny adage that a small group of committed people can change the world. I'm weird in that regard and that may present new and unique challenges for the mod team.)
« Last Edit: July 13, 2020, 12:19:42 AM by Phoenix »

Phoenix

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #866 on: July 13, 2020, 12:17:45 AM »

You have a social club with no stated social purpose whatsoever that talks about AGW and sea ice and societal collapse and no consciously expressed preference for scientific integrity.


Sometimes we are wrong, but to say there is “no consciously expressed preference for scientific integrity” is bull shit!


Does this mean you would support a mission statement to that effect ?

ShortBrutishNasty

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #867 on: July 13, 2020, 01:56:26 AM »
@ Rod, Haphazard, Viggy, and other like-minded members,

Thanks for fighting the good fight with civility and decency.  It's "Feels Like" 107 grad F where I am and I am tipping a cold one at you guys.

Dear Mods BeCause & Blumenkraft,

If you don't want to go medieval and ban, just limit problem child to 2 or 3 posts per day.  That type of relegation worked wonders with my earlier favorite annoyance.   Phoenix' posts will either improve and/or they will disappear.  Oh, Spoiler Alert:  The latter.

Love & Kisses,

ShortB&N
Thomas Hobbes , English philosopher 1588-1679

HapHazard

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #868 on: July 13, 2020, 05:16:30 AM »
I'm on tilt.

I'm glad you see that. Perhaps it's best to take a deep breath, back away from the keyboard for a while, and apply some mindfulness.

Sorry for being curt. But I have seen this exact type of forum drama play out hundreds of times before, across dozens of forums (including my own larger one).

blumenkraft

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #869 on: July 13, 2020, 12:38:45 PM »
And now to something completely different!

This is my post number 4444! 🥂

be cause

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #870 on: July 14, 2020, 04:34:52 PM »
I note you didn't rest long on your laurels .. or anything else .. another 1111 before freeze sets in ? :) b.c.
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 + 2 = 2021 + 1 =  ' if only we could have seen it coming ' ...

blumenkraft

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #871 on: July 14, 2020, 04:38:14 PM »
Giving my best, mate! ;D

be cause

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #872 on: July 14, 2020, 04:48:55 PM »
a quick note to Phoenix ..

do we need a 'mission statement ? We are not on a mission , nor are we missionaries .
 
A 'natural tension' should not exist between you and FRiv .. the ignore button may mean you are alone .
 
You should not be competing with him or anyone else , especially not with the aim of 'persuading others what to believe' .. bring your facts and figures , the ice will confirm them or otherwise as the season and years progress  . 

                   b.c.
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 + 2 = 2021 + 1 =  ' if only we could have seen it coming ' ...

KiwiGriff

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #873 on: July 14, 2020, 07:54:29 PM »
We have a simple mission statement.
Interesting discussions .
Right under the banner arctic sea ice forum.
The big canary we are all intensely aware of .

canary in a coal mine - Wiktionary
Quote
canary in a coal mine (plural canaries in a coal mine or canaries in coal mines) (idiomatic) Something whose sensitivity to adverse conditions makes it a useful early indicator of such conditions; something which warns of the coming of greater danger or trouble by a deterioration in its health or welfare.
Animals can be driven crazy by placing too many in too small a pen. Homo sapiens is the only animal that voluntarily does this to himself.
Notebooks of Lazarus Long.
Robert Heinlein.

oren

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #874 on: July 15, 2020, 11:35:20 AM »
Recently I've run into a few posts in the Cryosphere threads that were a direct attack on other posters' quality of posting, paraphrasing as "your posts are all so boring" or "this poster's posts should always be taken with a grain or salt" or some such. Instead of editing and reprimanding I have resorted to outright removal of these posts, as they would have contributed nothing and would only have led to bad feelings between posters. The surprise to me was that the criticized posters were all highly valued contributors of good standing and long history.
If you are one of the posters whose posts have inexplicably disappeared, here is the explanation. If you are considering making such a post, please refrain.
Of course, feel free to criticize the content of specific posts or of recurring claims, this is science and what we are here for.

nanning

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #875 on: July 15, 2020, 04:02:53 PM »
Great decision oren imo. Thank you.

just in case.. I haven't asked for this might some think that because of my earlier plea for 'decency'
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

sedziobs

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #876 on: July 15, 2020, 06:19:06 PM »
I didn't want to raise this issue in the sea ice data thread, but I'll just mention it here.

The term "grandfathered in" comes from racist laws in the USA during the century between the Civil War and the Civil Rights movement. Citizens whose grandfathers were eligible voters became exempt from new voter restriction methods like poll taxes and literacy tests. The practical effect was blacks and immigrants being denied the right to vote.

The phrase is generally not used with racist intent today, but some readers may not appreciate its usage in this forum.

blumenkraft

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #877 on: July 15, 2020, 06:28:22 PM »
Wow, the more you know...

Thanks, Sedziobs, i wasn't aware.

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #878 on: July 15, 2020, 07:17:59 PM »
<Racism apologism? Nope! If this was sarcasm please mark it as such. - BK>
« Last Edit: July 15, 2020, 07:36:00 PM by blumenkraft »
big time oops

oren

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #879 on: July 15, 2020, 07:42:50 PM »
I wasn't aware of any connotations. I'm familiar with the term from contracts and law. Will refrain from using in the future.

Phoenix

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #880 on: July 15, 2020, 08:18:12 PM »
a quick note to Phoenix ..

do we need a 'mission statement ? We are not on a mission , nor are we missionaries .
 
A 'natural tension' should not exist between you and FRiv .. the ignore button may mean you are alone .
 
You should not be competing with him or anyone else , especially not with the aim of 'persuading others what to believe' .. bring your facts and figures , the ice will confirm them or otherwise as the season and years progress  . 

                   b.c.

It is an illusion to think that humans are not animated by some sense of purpose or "mission'.

Maslow's hierarchy of need informs us of this. Our primal mission guides us to first secure food, clothing and shelter. Beyond that, we generally go after the following in order. Social belonging, social status (prestige) and ultimately, self-actualization.

It may not be stated specifically, but ASIF has identified a social mission embedded in the title with 'interesting discussions'. It's purpose as a gathering place to discuss certain vulnerable aspects of life supporting systems on earth is clear.

You have a mission bc. Your mission as a moderator here is to support the function of the ASIF community.

What ASIF doesn't have is a communal agreement of WHY the subject matter is important or how ASIF is relevant to the world at large. There is a conspicuous absence of stated purpose which animates most of us as individuals. ASIF is like Switzerland in WW2. There is a war going on and this is a place to discuss the war among people on all sides. There is simply official indifference to the outcome.

FishOutofWater

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #881 on: July 15, 2020, 09:32:43 PM »
Phoenix, I am very much concerned about getting the science right. This place has been trolled many times by people who were trying to be disruptive. You don't want to be so adamant in your opposition to a contributor or a group that you appear to be disruptive.

I have learned from being on the internet since the early days of e-mail back in the '80s that it works for me to state my case, explain it a few times in comments, then walk away.

I'm sorry that I called you disingenuous. I now see that there are legitimate scientific issues that are unresolved about the energy balance of the atmosphere/ice/ocean system. Science fails to self correct if we play follow the leader. We need to look critically at the data and models. It's looking to me like there are some problems with the way we are modelling the energy balance of the whole system, but maybe it's just my poor understanding of the physics.

Phoenix

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #882 on: July 15, 2020, 10:38:54 PM »
Phoenix, I am very much concerned about getting the science right. This place has been trolled many times by people who were trying to be disruptive. You don't want to be so adamant in your opposition to a contributor or a group that you appear to be disruptive.

I have learned from being on the internet since the early days of e-mail back in the '80s that it works for me to state my case, explain it a few times in comments, then walk away.

I'm sorry that I called you disingenuous. I now see that there are legitimate scientific issues that are unresolved about the energy balance of the atmosphere/ice/ocean system. Science fails to self correct if we play follow the leader. We need to look critically at the data and models. It's looking to me like there are some problems with the way we are modelling the energy balance of the whole system, but maybe it's just my poor understanding of the physics.

I appreciate your graciousness FOOW. I understand that internet forums are sometimes interrupted by trolls and that it isn't unreasonable to wonder about the motivations of other users.

The specific charge was intentionally obtuse. I hope its clear now to all that my contribution is also not obtuse even in an unintentional way. I don't know if Nico is right or not, but it's not stupid to consider that he might be right until proven otherwise.

I have acknowledged the concerns about repetition in my posting pattern and I will endeavor not to do that in the future. Now that Nico is preparing an explanation of his analysis and a respected user like yourself has acknowledged that the conventional wisdom may have room for improvement, there is much less perceived need on my part to bring attention to alternative viewpoints. You come across as a mostly unbiased contributor and I have faith that you'll give Nico's perspective a fair hearing. In the end, we'll see how the various perspectives stack up to observed reality.

be cause

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #883 on: July 16, 2020, 12:38:46 AM »
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 + 2 = 2021 + 1 =  ' if only we could have seen it coming ' ...

jens

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #884 on: July 16, 2020, 11:15:20 AM »
Besides, I am a great believer in Hanlon's razor:
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" (or other character flaws).

Yes. In the end every person makes decisions based on how the brain works and which connections it draws. And how well can that brain make sense of the world. If a person has bad judgement, it is lacking some data points to make better ones.

The better understanding one has of causes and effects, including the causes and effects of one's own behaviour on the surroundings, the better one can 'control' the ego.

igs

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #885 on: July 16, 2020, 06:37:19 PM »
Besides, I am a great believer in Hanlon's razor:
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" (or other character flaws).

Yes. In the end every person makes decisions based on how the brain works and which connections it draws. And how well can that brain make sense of the world. If a person has bad judgement, it is lacking some data points to make better ones.

The better understanding one has of causes and effects, including the causes and effects of one's own behaviour on the surroundings, the better one can 'control' the ego.

Yes, while for each level there remains kind of a Dunning - Krueger effect.

Each level is in bold because some of the semantics cannot be applied to the higher levels while the concept remains as is on each level.

This especially applies when:

- Someone has come to knowledte in narrow fields through learning EFFORTS as compared to
. someone with great analytic and logical skills at high speed.


In german there is a word for it that sounds a bit rude even though it's totally true which is very political correctness kiicks in.

However this is (not) complicated and touching too many triggers to follow up here, just
came to my mind while reading.

blumenkraft

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #886 on: July 16, 2020, 06:40:49 PM »
In german there is a word for it that sounds a bit rude even though it's totally true which is very political correctness kiicks in.

Dippelschisser?

igs

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #887 on: July 16, 2020, 06:49:08 PM »
In german there is a word for it that sounds a bit rude even though it's totally true which is very political correctness kiicks in.
Dippelschisser?

Nein: Fachidioten. Ich hätte es mir verkniffen aber da du nachfragst LOL.

Anwesende zumeist ausgenommen natürlich.

 ;D ;D ;D
« Last Edit: July 16, 2020, 07:07:54 PM by igs »

blumenkraft

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #888 on: July 16, 2020, 06:51:19 PM »
Ah, right, of course! :)

jens

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #889 on: July 16, 2020, 07:47:12 PM »
Yes, while for each level there remains kind of a Dunning - Krueger effect.

Well, in some ways it's logical, because we are viewing the world from one position, with one brain and life experience, while there is a huge world around of which it is impossible to know all the details about. This is why bias always remains, the bias of personal position in the world.

I think the main way to mitigate it is to just keep improving and learning all the time. Human's intuition is basically asking human to go forward all the time and not get stuck somewhere nor to keep sitting in a "comfort zone". Moving forward basically is going ahead with life and keeping up the learning process. Which basically means adding more variables into understanding the world.

igs

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #890 on: July 16, 2020, 09:18:49 PM »
Yes, while for each level there remains kind of a Dunning - Krueger effect.

Well, in some ways it's logical, because we are viewing the world from one position, with one brain and life experience, while there is a huge world around of which it is impossible to know all the details about. This is why bias always remains, the bias of personal position in the world.

I think the main way to mitigate it is to just keep improving and learning all the time. Human's intuition is basically asking human to go forward all the time and not get stuck somewhere nor to keep sitting in a "comfort zone". Moving forward basically is going ahead with life and keeping up the learning process. Which basically means adding more variables into understanding the world.

Yes of course, it's absolutely logical and therfore as such totally ok. As long as the few and I wish it were more are aware and become more careful in judgment and absolutistic approaches (dogmatic) all is well.

As to the second part, IMO that's exactly the right way to see things, the main difficulty appears to act upon this insight and I'm definitely talking about myself here. There are main human drivers that make it very diffucult to have things under control at all times and with rigor, but without being a bore, an enigma for most or worse.

Remembering the "Jacobines" who started to implemet the then highest levels of morale and thought they had to enforce it with the Guillotine?

It's happening again and again things often sound so just that most of us just don't get it till it's too late.

Veering of again, sorry, have a nice day @all.

sedziobs

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #891 on: July 17, 2020, 06:31:10 AM »
I think it is a problem when new members come into an established forum and openly criticize the quality or manner of discourse in the most visible threads. It comes across as concern trolling or tone policing, and is therefore inflammatory. This seems to happen with one or two new posters each season. Dissenting views are fine; complaints about how they are received are just persecutory delusions that lead to a sprawling Karpman drama triangle that drowns out the scientific substance. Thankfully, Friv injects his own brand of drama that helps make this a special place.

Phoenix

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #892 on: July 17, 2020, 07:01:55 AM »
All that was done was to point out that we can't quantify the buckets of current extent loss into melt vs. compaction / relocation. It's a perfectly reasonable point.

All of my posts are screened by a moderator before publication at this point. He has not been hesitating to alter or omit them as he sees fit.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2020, 08:19:00 AM by Phoenix »

sedziobs

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #893 on: July 17, 2020, 08:05:36 AM »
I'm not going to belabor this point any further than to point out these tone policing phrases just from today's post:

Quote
I don't think it's very scientific to try and draw boundaries around what can and can not be argued.

But there is room for reasonable people to question...

There isn't any reason to label less common perspectives...as being invalid at this moment.

I certainly think its fair to criticize and dissect the logic of unpopular arguments, but we should not make declarations that characterize arguments which have yet to be made before the proof.

HapHazard

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #894 on: July 17, 2020, 11:30:27 AM »

Phoenix

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #895 on: July 17, 2020, 06:58:07 PM »
I'm not going to belabor this point any further than to point out these tone policing phrases just from today's post:

Quote
I don't think it's very scientific to try and draw boundaries around what can and can not be argued.

But there is room for reasonable people to question...

There isn't any reason to label less common perspectives...as being invalid at this moment.

I certainly think its fair to criticize and dissect the logic of unpopular arguments, but we should not make declarations that characterize arguments which have yet to be made before the proof.

Which of these statements does anyone disagree with?

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #896 on: July 17, 2020, 07:02:04 PM »
blum is a joke of a moderator. the only post's allowed in threads that blum mods are posts that specifically go with the narrative blum is pushing.  THAT ISN'T THE POINT OF FORUMS!


How is this:

I'm starting to notice a lot of people pushing back against BLM. The main agreement seems to be that if black military-aged-males commit the majority of the homicides despite being only 6% of the population, of course they have more violent interactions with the cops.  I'm having trouble finding data that can push back against this narrative.

not about the GF's murder and the blowback? but this is:

"Oklahoma cops tased Jared Lakey over 50 times before he died, video shows

Link >> https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/07/17/jlok-j17.html"


GROW UP AND ENGAGE WITH ARGUMENTS THAT EXIST OUTSIDE OF YOUR TINY MENTAL SPACE. THAT IS THE POINT! NOT TO CREATE A CIRCLE-JERK ECHOCHAMBER.
big time oops

blumenkraft

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #897 on: July 17, 2020, 07:04:39 PM »
It's a thread about police violence.

Deal with it and move on, GSY.

Phoenix

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #898 on: July 17, 2020, 07:10:17 PM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning

From the article......Rhetorically, sealioning fuses persistent questioning—often about basic information, information easily found elsewhere, or unrelated or tangential points

Do questions regarding the quantification of extent loss due to compaction meet any of these definitions?

Basic information? - No.
Easily found elsewhere? - No.
Unrelated or tangential? - No.

The amount of current extent loss can't be accurately divided between compaction and melt. There isn't even persistent questioning about that on my part. Just a blanket vanilla statement that no one is refuting.

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #899 on: July 17, 2020, 07:19:46 PM »
It's a thread about police violence.

Deal with it and move on, GSY.

I'm sorry. Somebody must have screwed up at by naming the thread, " George Floyd murder and blowback."


big time oops