How to deal with denialists?

[wili]

"Literature about the Vikings and Ancient Greece"

I can read both Ancient Greek and Old Norse. I am all ears to hear about your references to these literatures that make the points you claim.

[jbg]

I would like to thank you for responding. It has been a while but I thought I would comment directly about some of the points you have made here.

First it comes with some relief that we agree that....

 "Literature about the Vikings and Ancient Greece are....not always contemporary accounts."

If you had asserted otherwise, I would be forced to ask from which century you are commenting from.

The obvious point I am making is that while it is never clear what year or time period they are referring to much of the literature seems to describe conditions similar to current conditions (ancient Greece or the Bible) or warmer than current conditions (the Vikings).

I am also well read and consider Alexis de Tocqueville's seminal work on America to be quite insightful, particularly with regards to the twin problems of slavery and Native Americans. It was, however, his focus on the true nature of participatory democracy in this country that still resonates today. I was unaware of his interest in climate and weather patterns and wish he had included this in the title of his work. Perhaps "Democracy in America, Weather or Not".

I like the title you propose.  My point relates to his anecdotal descriptions of his travels. The descriptions seem to point to climatic conditions similar to those obtaining at present.

Like you, I rarely read fiction and accounts of historical figures of leaders during the Revolutionary War are fascinating, the trials and difficulties that they faced. That George Washington was able to rally the colonial forces during the brutal winter of 1777/1778 at Valley Forge is inspiring. Despite these accounts about the cold, I do not consider this hard evidence in support of my positions on AGW.

The Valley Forge winter and the winter one or two years later seem to have in fact been colder than current ones.  However, the famous Christmas Battle at Trenton in 1776 was fought in a vicious mix of rain, freezing rain, ice pellets, and snow, followed by a warmup and then a freeze.  Perhaps that storm would be referred to as a "cutter" or "ridge runner" by people disappointed in the lack of a blizzard on weather boards.

Finally, while I am not certain that President Lincoln expressed any opinions regarding AGW, I can assure you I would read intently if he chose to show up on this thread to express one. I would hope that, unlike yourself, he would support these opinions with some data and graphs.

Abe Lincoln was a Republican. I think we know what his likely positions were.

Consistent with the subject of this thread, I would like to hold up my above response as an example of how to "deal with denialists" as obtuse as this one.

You treat them to a healthy dose of sarcasm, ridicule and scorn.   

Yer doin' it 'rong!   

I don't see the need for a personal attack here.

While I agree with most on this Board that a blizzard, cold wave or even a severe winter such as the past one does not disprove global warming, comparisons with a steady stream of contemporary early description trumps bogus "proxy data" engrafted onto "current temperatures" in a "hockey stick" configuration.

[Shared Humanity]

jbg.....I will wait patiently for the science you have in support of your skepticism. By science, I mean the kinds of extensive quantitative research that has contributed so much to the advancement of western civilization. Please have this be peer reviewed research and not reference postings or comments made by someone on a blog such as this. While  I do very little reading of such research, save the excellent links provided by interested individuals on this site, I would expect that the quantitative research match the quality of items I have read here.

Judging by this last comment on your post...

"While I agree with most on this Board that a blizzard, cold wave or even a severe winter such as the past one does not disprove global warming, comparisons with a steady stream of contemporary early description trumps bogus "proxy data" engrafted onto "current temperatures" in a "hockey stick" configuration."

....I suspect you are not quite up to the task.

I would like to make it simple, baby steps 1st. Please provide scientific evidence, yes in the form of data and charts, that demonstrates clearly that the northern hemisphere has just suffered from a severe winter as you have suggested.

I would suggest that you start with charts of northern hemisphere temperatures that go back to, say 1970. Please do not select eastern North America for evidence. While we suffered from an anomalously cold winter, it did not compare to the winters in the late 70's and early 80's. Meanwhile, last winter, large areas of the northern hemisphere had anomalously warm winters. Also, do not simply focus on the winter. Please include a 4 season analysis. You likely can find all of this information, in detail, on this very site.

As regards the need for a "healthy dose of sarcasm, ridicule and scorn" you should expect another large dose if you choose to not provide scientific evidence. The only possible  alternative will be to ignore your drivel entirely.

[deep octopus]

I will say, indiscriminately reducing paleontological data as "bogus" and somehow of even less scientific value than the Bible takes some moxie. To even make such broad generalizations from the non-specific anecdotes of ancient texts without additional data to substantiate them demonstrates a lack of spatial reasoning. To make any conclusions about a local, regional, or much less global climate at a given period in history, one would think that having a broad amount of data—with a proper sample size to reflect the scale you're after (time and space, included) that you could eventually develop a picture—would be crucial. That's what paleontology does; and historic data, if you've got it. But it isn't as if paleontologists just willy-nilly make conclusions. Certainly not the thousands of ones who have contributed peer-reviewed papers over the decades. No, they have to use the same principles in physics as everybody else. That's why it works. But I like boiling this matter down to, well, honestly, reality doesn't care what anyone's opinion is on this.

[Neven]

I'm not in a great mood today, and it would help if I don't see any more of the nonsense you write in your last post, jbg. It's also enough off-topic for this thread. Thanks.

[TerryM]

SH


I don't have any links but I had read years ago that the "brutal winter" Washington faced was a propaganda piece to rally the nation & that it was actually an exceptionally warm winter.


Having moved back to an area long involved in farming I was pleasantly surprised to find very old accounts of unusual weather (a horse that had damaged it's hoof breaking through ice in June after Krakatoa) and an account of natives unable to depart from Lake Huron until summer months due to ice in the 1600's.


As far as the Arctic goes the Ellesmere Island drift wood proving that the ice shelves had been in place for over 5Kyr rules out all but the very longest cycles.


Terry

[Shared Humanity]

I'm not in a great mood today, and it would help if I don't see any more of the nonsense you write in your last post, jbg. It's also enough off-topic for this thread. Thanks.

You could make the case that his  nonsense is providing us practice on how  to deal with denialists although, I have to admit, his posts are dumber than most.

[jbg]

I'm not in a great mood today, and it would help if I don't see any more of the nonsense you write in your last post, jbg. It's also enough off-topic for this thread. Thanks.

I hope you're in a better mood by now.