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Author Topic: Ocean Temps  (Read 6788 times)

Shared Humanity

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Re: Ocean Temps
« Reply #50 on: February 18, 2018, 04:24:54 PM »

Could this thread be any more off topic?

I don't see how unless I start talking about the impending birth of my 1st grandchild.

This is very annoying and is most noticeable during the freeze season as many of the regulars here who post truly relevant research which I love to read take a hiatus.

harpy

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Re: Ocean Temps
« Reply #51 on: February 18, 2018, 04:44:32 PM »
Indeed, Archimid; uniformitarianism taken to extremes just doesn't work. Civilisations do collapse, and so do global ecosystems, particularly when you get natural perturbations on the scale of the ones that we're making.

Comparing the '70s and '80s (I assume) pollution problems with climate change isn't really useful. Some problems can be easily solved by a concerted effort, and without harmful side-effects. Toxic sludge going into some of your rivers? Legislate to stop it, and those ecosystems soon recover. Ozone hole? Once you stop the CFC (etc.) emissions, the problem starts to resolve; it might takle a while, but it'll get there.

Climate change is a whole other ball game, because of its global scale, cumulative effects with long lag times, major built-in feedbacks, direct impacts on food propduction and water supplies, and the dependence of our economy of things being as they are until the alternatives catch up. Optimism can be useful, but not when it blinds us to how serious the problems really are, and lulls people into thinking that the problems will magically disappear when someone comes up a neat solution. There are, currently, no neat solutions that will work in time. Without the appearance of new technologies such as carbon scrubbing that can be rolled out globally, almost overnight, I don't see that a viable artificial fix is available.

Excellent post, thank you for your thoughts.

gerontocrat

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Re: Ocean Temps
« Reply #52 on: February 18, 2018, 04:48:42 PM »

Could this thread be any more off topic?

I don't see how unless I start talking about the impending birth of my 1st grandchild.

This is very annoying and is most noticeable during the freeze season as many of the regulars here who post truly relevant research which I love to read take a hiatus.

Too right, Shared Humanity .

But we can't expect Neven to do all the work on managing the forum.
So, methinks we need to be a bit more firm about this disease infecting the forum.

From now on,I will be naming names - so lay off, Avalonian, Harpy et al. There are threads in "consequences" and "policy and solutions" for this stuff, so use them.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
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"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

Shared Humanity

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Re: Ocean Temps
« Reply #53 on: February 18, 2018, 05:16:07 PM »

Could this thread be any more off topic?

I don't see how unless I start talking about the impending birth of my 1st grandchild.

This is very annoying and is most noticeable during the freeze season as many of the regulars here who post truly relevant research which I love to read take a hiatus.

Too right, Shared Humanity .

But we can't expect Neven to do all the work on managing the forum.
So, methinks we need to be a bit more firm about this disease infecting the forum.

From now on,I will be naming names - so lay off, Avalonian, Harpy et al. There are threads in "consequences" and "policy and solutions" for this stuff, so use them.

I will join you in this effort. I hesitate to call people out as I do not want to appear the nag but this is getting ridiculous.

Bruce Steele

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Re: Ocean Temps
« Reply #54 on: February 18, 2018, 05:19:04 PM »
I think high ocean temperatures and coral bleaching are directly related. Therefore discussing it's potential impacts on humans is fair game.  I wonder if anyone has done any dietary studies on
Isolated human populations highly dependent on reef fish and nearshore invertebrates?
 Getting the larger public to recognize the threats the ocean is being exposed to can be very much improved by knowledge of how those threats impact other humans. The oyster crashes in Oregon and Washington due to ocean acidification being a prime case. I have been a commercial fisherman for over thirty years and we do see things that are missed or ignored by the scientific community and terrestrial humans.
The oyster crashes were spotted by aquaculturists and their causes were also isolated by those same people with the help of experimentation ,monitoring equipment, and university expertise .So if coral bleaching events are impacting indigenous fishermen there should be an attempt to document the human misery caused.
Corals and fish dieoffs in marine reserves or parks are just never going to have the same impact on the larger story that needs to be told. We terrestrial members of civilization are causing the oceans ecosystems to begin to die. Paradise in the South Pacific isn't paradise if the food humans  have survived upon for thousands of years disappears and their islands flood.
 Ocean heating also results in ecosystem shifts that results in the collapse of kelp forests. We are currently having extreme impacts to invertebrates in Northern California largely due to the after affects of the "blob." The red sea urchin fishery there has largely collapsed and abalone stocks are also starving because purple urchin barrens have eaten all the kelp. Purple urchins were never as abundant in Northern California as they currently are with populations reaching an average of 150 per square meter across Calif. Fish and Wildlife monitoring stations. The 2018 recreational fishery for abalone in California has been closed as a result.
Kelp resources in Tazmania are also under severe threat due to increases in ocean temperatures. This has caused a shift in herbivor populations resulting in overgrazed kelp resources. Current ocean temperature anomalies around Tazmania and Southern New Zealand are +3 C.

https://coralreefwatch.noaa.gov/satellite/bleaching5km/animation_current/ssta_animation_30day_pacific_930x580.gif

If you don't like talking about the impacts of high ocean temperatures then my experiences as an ocean observer are useless to you, just ignor me and enjoy your day.
 
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 05:28:08 PM by Bruce Steele »

Shared Humanity

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Re: Ocean Temps
« Reply #55 on: February 18, 2018, 06:12:17 PM »
I think high ocean temperatures and coral bleaching are directly related. 

Yes.

Therefore discussing it's potential impacts on humans is fair game.
 

If taken too far no.

This is not relevant.

Also, civilization collapse and starvation are nothing new, but being alive for a few decades in a first world country will lead to the mistaken belief that it can't happen. Climate change is just now getting started.

Nor this.

Indeed, Archimid; uniformitarianism taken to extremes just doesn't work. Civilisations do collapse, and so do global ecosystems, particularly when you get natural perturbations on the scale of the ones that we're making.

Comparing the '70s and '80s (I assume) pollution problems with climate change isn't really useful. Some problems can be easily solved by a concerted effort, and without harmful side-effects. Toxic sludge going into some of your rivers? Legislate to stop it, and those ecosystems soon recover. Ozone hole? Once you stop the CFC (etc.) emissions, the problem starts to resolve; it might takle a while, but it'll get there.

Climate change is a whole other ball game, because of its global scale, cumulative effects with long lag times, major built-in feedbacks, direct impacts on food propduction and water supplies, and the dependence of our economy of things being as they are until the alternatives catch up. Optimism can be useful, but not when it blinds us to how serious the problems really are, and lulls people into thinking that the problems will magically disappear when someone comes up a neat solution. There are, currently, no neat solutions that will work in time. Without the appearance of new technologies such as carbon scrubbing that can be rolled out globally, almost overnight, I don't see that a viable artificial fix is available.

Even quoting this stuff makes me feel bad. I am now the one derailing this thread.

I will now exit.

Shared Humanity

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Re: Ocean Temps
« Reply #56 on: February 18, 2018, 06:15:42 PM »
And what in the hell does this mean???  :o uninformitarianism

Just googled it...

u·ni·form·i·tar·i·an·ism
ˌyo͞onəˌfôrməˈterēənizəm
noun GEOLOGY
the theory that changes in the earth's crust during geological history have resulted from the action of continuous and uniform processes.

Archimid

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Re: Ocean Temps
« Reply #57 on: February 18, 2018, 06:36:51 PM »
My comment was meant to counteract the denier intellectual poison:

Quote
Claims of civilization collapse and mass starvation are nothing new. 


That claim is very dangerous because it plays to the very deep confirmation bias that the world can’t end. Ocean temperatures have ended the world before and there is no reason except for “Human exceptionality” to think it won’t do it again.

That said, it is not productive to bring the worst possible consequence of ocean temperatures into every comment. It is more productive to use this thread to share data, information, ideas and questions about more  tangible consequences of ocean temperatures, like changes in the ocean biosphere, ocean chemical composition, ocean currents and other changing systems.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

Avalonian

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Re: Ocean Temps
« Reply #58 on: February 18, 2018, 06:54:02 PM »
I accept that my second post drifted way off topic, in response to what went before. Mea culpa. It won't happen again, and there are indeed other threads where the effects of temperature on fisheries are better discussed. Now can we please stop with all the recriminations? In a case like this, a simple, "Back on topic, please!" would have done the job. That's it from me.