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Paddy

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Top climate-friendly actions
« on: August 22, 2016, 01:49:34 PM »
If you could put together a top X list of ways to walk the walk, as a general call to arms / summary of good ideas, what would they be?  Here's mine (it worked out as Top 6, but the number is not fixed)

1) Reduce meat and dairy consumption.
2) Plan to have fewer children later
3) Reduce personal fossil fuel consumption, in particular, cycling and walking when you can
4) Reduce what you consume otherwise, reusing, recycling, etc. where possible
5) Source whatever you consume more sustainably
6) Vote, campaign, and generally speak up more for the policy changes that we need

GeoffBeacon

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2016, 02:50:37 PM »
Paddy

1) Especially avoid food derived from ruminants (cattle, sheep, goats &etc) ( See No beef)

2)That's the past for me.

3) Yes. and don't fly, don't use cars except in emergencies.

4) I'm suspicious of most recycling schemes. I'd be pleased to see a thread to explore this. My attempt on No bottles had entries

  • Plastic better than recycling glass
  • Bottles reused in Denmark
  • Burning plastic better than recycling?
and

A prayer of commitment


Quote
NoBottles has heard of a plan to dispose of bottles at sea. The authors of the plan believe (as we do) that recycling glass by grinding bottles into small particles, melting them and reforming them into new bottles creates too much carbon dioxide pollution. Their plans are currently stalled for legal reasons but they have sent us the prayer they hope to use in the burial at sea.

Quote
Dear Lord, we commit these bottles born of the fire of global
warming to the damaged deep to become homes for your
wondrous creations under the waves.

These mortal remains will be snached from the evil recyclers
who would grind them into dust before melting them in great
furnaces to repeat the evil of their birth.

Dear Lord, make us respectful of your great works and drink
our wine from Tetrapaks.

5) Yes. But we need more information -- better than The Green Ration Book

6) One policy change would be to establish research programs to create sustainable lifestyles with low carbon emissions. Attempts I have looked at have been pathetic. (See Three failed eco-towns)

Paddy, I hope this doesn't depress you as much as it depresses me.
 
Il faut cultiver notre cité-jardin
The Sustainable Plotlands Association

Paddy

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2016, 06:29:08 PM »
Fair comment, all round - although I'd read that some recycling, eg aluminium, is actually very efficient, and I've seen a number of schemes for turning bottles into other useful things (generally involving finding uses for ground glass). And the topic doesn't depress me - I work in healthcare, so I'm all too acquainted with there being limits on what I can do to fix problems.

Anything you'd add to the list?

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2016, 07:18:04 PM »
  • Vote appropriately, and advocate others do the same.
  • Lower  your carbon footprint AKA Spend as little money as you can! 
    This includes the "99 things you can do to save the planet" concept. 
    Here are 9 "R"s and 2 "S"s: reduce, reuse, recycle, repurpose, repair, refuse (do without), rot (compost), recover, rethink, share, and source locally.
  • Support organic farmers, and other small acreage farmers/gardeners (especially local ones).
  • Support (financially and volunteering/working for) climate friendly advocating organizations.
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things.

Dundee

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2016, 05:11:57 AM »
These are U.S. specific, and may or may not be an issue elsewhere. In no particular order:

Stop putting crap (unless it was before composting, literally crap) on your lawn. It doesn't stay there, the lawn doesn't need it, and when it comes to cases, you don't need the lawn.

Use your clothes, shoes, and home furnishings until they wear out, not until they bore you or are out of fashion. You can afford it, the world cannot.

Ditto for your car, unless you truly need it, and the new one is, say, at least a third more efficient.

Don't eat beef. Eat less meat.

Raise your children to understand the meaning of having "enough." This is a pretty odd concept in our culture, but "enough" turns out to be a lot less than you think.

More learning, less believing. You can't argue with a belief, and the most closely held ones are often the most harmful and the most wrong. If you don't know, find out. Once you know, you don't need to fall back on belief.

A vacation needn't involve an aircraft, or even a car (my longest by bicycle was only 2,000km, but I hiked 3,500km a few years ago).

If you need to get in a car to go running, cycling, or to work out, you are doing something seriously wrong.

Insulate your home. Insulate it again and install decent windows.

LEDs are not your enemy

Bruce Steele

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2016, 05:16:45 PM »
Many of us here on the forum are men past our child rearing age. Some of us never had a child and at this point  decisions on procreation are largely advice to someone else. Our chances of extensive involvement in the modern medical system however tend to increase rapidly as we approach our expiration date.
I am beginning to wonder about the energy and effort that society invests into those last 10 to 20 years . These thoughts are partly based on personal experience and what passes as good advice from my doctor. My doctor tends to think the old drugs I take ( digitalis )are dated and I should move on to modern and much pricier options. He also thinks I should consider a modern operation that "might" improve my chances of living longer. Although the odds probably support his view the  monetary costs of  jumping into the deep end of the medical system are in my opinion energy costs although nobody in the medical system seems to consider them such.
 So I will take the little ( and big ) clues my heart sends me as advice about my lifestyle ( and risk ) choices. I will try to maintain a very active life , eat better, balance advice from holistic doctors with the advice I get from the modern medical system . I get the feeling my doctor doesn't like my hardheaded adherence to what has worked for the 35 years I have been dealing with heart issues.
I will stick to digitalis as  a working and inexpensive option and when things get very bad I won't be taking on a pacemaker .
 I am only using my personal experience as an example but I think it applies to larger questions about the energy and cost of modern  medications and operative procedures. In the end I will lose this battle.
 Just thought the subject was somewhat more relevant here than procreation choices.

Paddy

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2016, 05:39:39 PM »
@Bruce,

Do you have a power of attorney and advanced care plan in place? The really resource-intensive bits of healthcare can often be averted with a plan in place to say whether or not, for example, you would wish to be kept alive in ICU should things go wrong. Much costlier, on the whole, than ablations and pacemakers.

Bruce Steele

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2016, 06:59:32 PM »
Paddy, thanks for the advice. I had to deal with DNR's for my parents so I get your point. Will do ASAP
 I was only using my example as a discussion point about the larger trends in modern healthcare , cost and energy.
The legal system is of course part and parcel of problems in the medical system. Lawyers aren't a big percentage of our followers I would guess.
 I wonder about holistic medicine and it's applicability to reducing the energy / cost issues. Are we better off or worse off in training and testing it's applicability . I would think just costs alone will crush modern medicine if and when the wheels start coming off this train. How well are we preparing our society for that eventuality?

TerryM

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2016, 11:50:08 PM »
Bruce

Poignant thoughts my friend.


With a brother in law in his mid 60's who recently sired a new little nephew, I appreciate your not so subtle distinction between child rearing as opposed to the fathering of children by old men.


~15 years ago extreme costs were incurred to keep this old shell running, and since that time my medical upkeep has been both expensive and extensive. I'd never taken account of the carbon expended.


Thanks
Terry

budmantis

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2016, 03:36:17 PM »
There are several references on this thread about staying away from beef. While I stay away from feedlot beef and beef treated with antibiotics and growth hormone, I thought "grass fed" beef was okay. 

ghoti

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2016, 04:58:33 PM »
Grass fed beef are massive methane producers. If they only produced CO2 then they be closer to "net zero" since all the carbon would be sourced from CO2 fixed via photosynthesis. Unfortunately methane is such a potent GHG that in the short term at least  even grass fed beef is way less than optimal.

sidd

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2016, 05:14:20 PM »
1)eat less meat
2)if you must eat beef, get it from a pasture raised or free range source. Preferably from a local farmer known to you. Eating feedlot meat abets animal torture.

Paddy

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2016, 08:47:49 PM »
@Bruce,

I should really not have limited that advice to avoiding the most excessive treatment, but also talked about other key strategies to do with staying out of hospital as much as possible; such as to stay physically, socially, and mentally active, while also staying safe. And the whole not drinking to excess, not smoking etc.

anotheramethyst

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2016, 09:38:11 AM »
Paddy

4) I'm suspicious of most recycling schemes. I'd be pleased to see a thread to explore this. My attempt on No bottles had entries

  • Plastic better than recycling glass
  • Bottles reused in Denmark
  • Burning plastic better than recycling?
and

A prayer of commitment


Quote
NoBottles has heard of a plan to dispose of bottles at sea. The authors of the plan believe (as we do) that recycling glass by grinding bottles into small particles, melting them and reforming them into new bottles creates too much carbon dioxide pollution. Their plans are currently stalled for legal reasons but they have sent us the prayer they hope to use in the burial at sea.

Quote
Dear Lord, we commit these bottles born of the fire of global
warming to the damaged deep to become homes for your
wondrous creations under the waves.

These mortal remains will be snached from the evil recyclers
who would grind them into dust before melting them in great
furnaces to repeat the evil of their birth.

Dear Lord, make us respectful of your great works and drink
our wine from Tetrapaks.

5) Yes. But we need more information -- better than The Green Ration Book

6) One policy change would be to establish research programs to create sustainable lifestyles with low carbon emissions. Attempts I have looked at have been pathetic. (See Three failed eco-towns)

Paddy, I hope this doesn't depress you as much as it depresses me.

I refuse to believe plastic is better for the environment than glass.  I grew up on the ocean and I saw directly what plastic does to the environment.  Burning plastic is basically burning oil.  Is recycling glass better than making new glass?  Then we should do it.  Also, you can reuse glass many times before it breaks.  I reuse all kinds of glass containers.  Once upon a time, people used to turn in old bottles for a tiny deposit.  Those bottles got reused.  Why not start that again?  Even if new glass is more efficient than recycling glass, you actually can throw glass bottles in the ocean without any ill effects, and tiny sea glass will wash up on shore and get collected by kids and crafters everywhere, along with the seashells.  Plastic, on the other hand, is creating giant islands of plastic rotating in gyres in the ocean.  More plastic washes on every beach, every day, killing fish, birds, and seaturtles.  I have seen all this personally.  We used to have a big cookout once a year and the whole town would clean all the trash off the beach.  Literally, the very next day, it looked exactly as trashed as if we had never been there.  This is a virgin, undeveloped stretch of beach that you can only reach by boat or by a 40 mile offroad drive in a 4 wheel drive truck still in danger of getting stuck in the sand.  All that trash came directly from the ocean, not from beachgoers.  The weirdest stuff would wash up, syringes, tons of bottles, 10 foot long lightbulbs (unbroken???!!! still a mystery to me, years later.  I saw them all the time, far back in the dunes, probably transported during storms).  Shoes, nets, drums, fishing line, huge mats of streamers with asiatic writing on them.  All kinds of plastic bags.  Tarps.  You name it and I'm sure if it's made of plastic it's washed up on a beach somewhere. 

Paddy

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2017, 12:11:25 AM »
I'd just like to link here to a good article on the issues with and limitations of ethical consumerism: https://qz.com/920561/conscious-consumerism-is-a-lie-heres-a-better-way-to-help-save-the-world/

Clare

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2017, 11:41:00 PM »
Thanks Paddy, this is an excellent essay & made me think.
I will continue with my other efforts of reusing & buying mostly used things of course, but have to accept they alone wont make much if any difference!

But this prompted me & I have made a start with what I know is only a modest push back today by complaining (& why) to my supermarket chain for selling British pork here in NZ and at a lower price per kilo than the local NZ pork!

Clare

Martin Gisser

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2017, 09:25:12 PM »
0) Punish those who spread antiscientific bullshit.

Recent example: Cancel your NYTimes subscription and tell them why (hiring Bret Stephens).
If you don't have one, you still can like and share Stefan Rahmstorf's FB post.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1314781445254775&id=100001687960349&comment_id=1314813988584854
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etienne

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2017, 08:21:56 AM »
Medical issues are very complicated. In my family, most people die from cancer or from Alzheimer, the others have a stroke and a few just die because they are so old. So, should I try to avoid and heal cancer ? I am not concerned yet, but it is a really complicated. Well, they all died above 75, so I not so worried yet.

Sometimes I have the feeling that suggested preventive of healing treatments are more related to machines available than to the real needs.

For me, the most important thing is to reduce my needs and to be active locally. We do for example a lot of car sharing to drive kids around to their different activities.

There is a funny thing about plastic recycling in Luxembourg. It is mainly used as fuel to burn the trash, so whether you put plastic in the trash or in the recycling bin, it ends at the same place. Just that the recycling bin is free of charge.

Best regards,

Etienne

vigilius

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2017, 09:04:10 PM »
Well, gosh, I really do not know what to ask.

I came by this way with the notion of trying to find out if there was some legitimate way of buying carbon offsets that was not just a way of greenwashing.

After reading the threads I am coming to the conclusion that such a notion would be akin to trying to buy indulgences from Martin Luther.

So I guess I really cannot fly anywhere anymore?

Please do not think I am being flippant, there really are a couple of things left I meant to do, bucket list sorts of things, things that involve flying. I am sincerely conflicted. OTOH I went to Leipzig twice just for the sake of Bach, I guess that means I really did not care that much about Versailles and the Louvre. I guess I have already made my choice? And have been sensationally lucky to have seen what I already saw? And heard what I already heard? Good grief, I got to hear a recital on the organ at Naumburg! And a recital at the Ludgerikirche in Norden on the 1685 Schnitger Organ! Oh, and I am not even mentioning the recital at the Dom Merseburg!

And now that I have listened to myself I am remembering the liability the rich nations have towards the folks who contributed nothing to the CO2 emissions that are now in the process of destroying their lives. Their countries. And here I am complaining about how I can't take one more plane trip to Europe? I must be a real piece of crap if I am thinking like that. If I got to hear Liszt and Bach at the Dom Merseburg I guess I can die a happy camper and not worry about how I never got to the Louvre.

And BTW by American standards I am not even what they call "rich."

Paddy

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2017, 11:29:10 PM »
I don't know much about buying offsets, but another option might be to offset a flight by eating less red meat, driving less, etc...

Bruce Steele

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2017, 09:44:43 PM »
I saw this review of a book called "Drawdown" by Paul Hawkin over at Scribbler.

https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2017/5/10/15589038/top-100-solutions-climate-change-ranked

It has a list of peer reviewed studies that are affordable and scaleable and ranks those solutions on how they contribute to drawdown , that point where CO2 begins to drop in the atmosphere.
1) Refridgerate Management
2) onshore wind turbines
3) reduced food waste
4) plant rich diet
5) tropical forests
6) educating girls
7) family planning
8) solar farms
9) silvopasture
10) rooftop solar

So yes reducing meat consumption is one of the top four right after reducing food waste but maybe
Terry should start a thread on how "Refridgerate management " and the increase in air-conditioners is a problem and the top climate friendly technological fix that can affordably change our current trajectory.

Hawkins is planning a new book on the same subject. A few suggestions from the peanut gallery would be a switch to low methane rice culture and diet supplements to reduce methane in cattle and
ruminants.
 I have personally adopted some of the top ten list and I think others on the list are things I can incorporate as a farmer. It is interesting to me that farmers , ranchers and foresters are all occupations that can help society adapt to our collective future. It is also painfully apparent that we are underrepresented in this forum and probably underrepresented in solutions dialogs that should more effectively target this segment of the worlds population.
 Here is a blog site that talks about silvoculture is a "boots on the ground" kind of way. The law is making climate solution impossible for farmers. So maybe some rethinking the food safety issues with a consideration for climate solutions should be a higher motivation for government planners?  It is so easy to put a boot on someone else's neck and feel good about it when priorities are confused . So little time to get this right.
https://elizapples.com/tag/silvopasture/

 
farmer
 

wili

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2017, 11:35:04 PM »
Again, good discussion. And that's a nice list, but note:

It's 'Refrigerant Management' not "Refrigerate Management."

Mostly that is going to come from legislation and decisions by managers of factories and other large facilities.

Same with windfarms.

So that leaves food waste and avoiding meat and dairy as the top two things that individuals can easily and immediately control. In fact, they are the only things in the whole list that everyone can start implementing immediately at no cost.

So yeah, I'd say they are a pretty important message to get out there to as many people as possible as fast as possible, and that if one cares about GW, they shouldn't be on the side that is belittling or pooh-pooh-ing reduced meat and dairy diets, or vegetarianism and veganism.

wrt Paddy's link...those kinds of articles always seem to pick on a couple of things that some people might think are making a difference that really aren't...but really, most anyone who thought about those things for a couple minutes would/should be able to figure them out.

The takeaway for me is the somewhat throwaway line: "Beyond making big lifestyle decisions such as choosing to live in a dense urban area with public transportation, cutting red meat out of your diet, and having fewer children (or none at all), there are diminishing returns ..."

They left out cutting back on or giving up flying, but otherwise, those are exactly the kinds of big changes that should be emphasized, rather than dismissed. But yeah, activism and pushing at institutional changes is always the most important.

But the line: " drains our bank accounts and our political will, diverts our attention away from the true powerbrokers, and focuses our energy instead on petty corporate scandals and fights over the moral superiority of vegans" is just full of problems.

Almost none of the lifestyle changes I do 'drain my bank account.' That's just stupid. Anything you buy that you didn't have to buy is going to be eco-stupid and anyone who doesn't know this is equally stupid.

I think I have enough 'attention' that I can learn about a farm bill while still eating mostly locally. Can't everyone? Doesn't paying attention to what you eat and where it comes from make you even more aware and concerned about those issues?

And of course the final jab at vegans is just totally gratuitous, especially after saying that one of the three absolutely most important decisions one can make is to give up meat (do they not realize that cheese is also quite carbon-intense?).

I don't see people who are choosing to live actually living simple lives that lower their carbon footprints to near or below sustainable levels writing screeds sneering at activists for doing more harm than good (probably because, contrary to what this article implies, most of them are also themselves activists). Why make this into some kind of binary? It smacks to me of defensiveness and rationalization, by and large. But maybe I'm missing something?
« Last Edit: May 22, 2017, 12:44:38 AM by wili »
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Bruce Steele

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2017, 12:46:48 AM »
Wili, I woundn't be here at all if it weren't for spellcheck but in spite of my challenges with English ( my one language ) I still surprise myself with some well written posts. I am not a teacher.
 I can't quite figure if you are trying to pick a fight but you should note that silvoculture involves raising animals and planting trees. This list is inclusive and not exclusive , you can't get to drawdown without including every step. I hope you realize we are struggling together here. If it makes you happier I have given up on beef . I would like to eat it , I like how it tastes ,but I think the carbon costs are too high.
 I think the important message in " Drawdown " is the acknowledgement that technological solutions will not be adequate to achieve a peak and decline in CO2. No silver bullets. Six of the ten solutions are not technological.
 I'm going to let the pooh - poohing pass although I think it is intended as a slight.

ps, you changed your post so I am going to go back and review article to try and find where you took offense.
Pig farmer - treeplanter
 
« Last Edit: May 22, 2017, 12:56:52 AM by Bruce Steele »

wili

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2017, 01:53:57 AM »
No, sorry, not meaning to sound combative, certainly not with you.  :)

I do find that on most forums, when issues about reducing meat consumption come up, even otherwise concerned, informed and well intentioned people often get quite irrationally defensive, and frequently rudely dismissive about vegetarianism, veganism and even the mere notion that reducing meat intake is something they should even remotely be considering.

I have generally not seen these extreme reactions here, and I was happy to see that in both your and in Paddy's linked articles, eating less meat was given some prominence. The message does seem to be spreading, though sometimes in a rather backhanded kind of way. But I guess back hands are better than no hands at all!  ;D
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

TerryM

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2017, 02:47:31 AM »
Bruce
I appreciated your links - actually lost a few hours tracing leads and links. Good stuff, but as an apartment dwelling consumer of, as opposed to a producer of foodstuff, I found little that related to my situation.
WRT silvopasture, I've probably mentioned in the past that a large number of free range hogs hid out in the oak forests near Buellton, ancestors of animals released during the depression when farmers couldn't afford to feed them. The lean, acorn flavored meat was a wonder, although the hunters that I knew hunted at night using bow and arrow, to stay ahead of TPTB.
Not everyone is capable of chasing hounds, drawing 100# bows, or dressing the kill. Having a person with such skills as a friend however is within everyone's capability.
WRT Refrigerant Management or Refrigerate Management, the linked article seemed to be addressing the want's and needs of the 3d world countries whose populace yearn to emulate 1st world lifestyles. That's a tough nut to crack!
The shortcuts that I've used in the heat of the Mojave desert all require access to water, and sometimes people willing to forgo the advantages of chilled air when conditions of extreme humidity occur, (not often fortunately in the desert). Unfortunately the situation in India where, as I understand it, the high temperatures are matched with high humidity, rendering most of my solutions as unworkable.
In Canada, for some time, air conditioning during summer, uses more electricity than heating during the winter. The situation in India, with AGW heating things even further, seems unsolvable without a huge die off - the exact thing we're trying to dodge.
How can moral people, comfortable during all seasons, ask have nots to swelter for the good of the world?
Requiring AC systems to be built using parts and systems that are maintainable, replaceable, and that have a reasonable lifespan, might be a start. The last three heat pumps I've purchased all failed because of a very cheap fan motor, in two cases the motors didn't even have oil ports to allow proper maintenance. A motor costing perhaps a dollar more would have doubled the working life of the units even if no maintenance was performed. Two of these units were manufactured in China, the third in Germany.
In small units like these the refrigerant is unlikely to be saved, they end up in landfills and the gas eventually escapes. What an unconscionable waste.
If this is the situation in Canada and the US, I can only imagine what's being sold to the poor in India. Few technicians, iffy power sources, and units designed to fail the day after the warranty expires. A recipe for disaster.


Terry

Bruce Steele

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2017, 08:14:17 AM »
I am always caught up by regulations as a deterrent to resonable climate friendly choices. I got pigs because I hated composting slightly blemished fruits and vegetables. I figured feeding pigs was a more appropriate use for vegetables and I got my farm insurance policy cancelled as a consequence. So I had to choose between vegetables and pigs to get a new policy.
 My pigs are best for Charcuterie but health and safety regulations for Charcuterie result in restaurants either cheating or forgoing curing meats. The temperatures required by USDA isn't ideal for the best results either. I cure  at home but I can't sell what I produce. Salt is far more climate friendly than CFC's but freezers and cold rooms are de rigor .
 I am planting oak trees in a silvopasture plan because planting fruit trees results in fruit I can't sell. I have figured out how to make biodiesel but collecting restaurant grease requires permits and special equipment , or it did when I was using kitchen grease. I am now using lard as a feedstock and plan on using the bio produced in my farm equipment . I don't plan on looking too deeply into legalities.
 I have been processing acorns which also gets into legal issues other than for personal use. Restaurants pay about $50 for two pounds of acorn flour but I would need a commercial kitchen to make product for sale. Going through the legal channels for acorn production may be worth the trouble because there is only one commercial supplier in the U.S.
 So I live my life in two channels that are often in conflict. Those things I believe offer an alternative to energy demands of government regulations and those insured , taxed and inspected programs of a commercial operation. One will lead IMO to a planetary disaster and the other to the only future that people might live in harmony with our Planet.
 It is either or, and attempting both leads to a lot of inter conflict.
 

Clare

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2017, 07:20:26 AM »
It's midwinter down under and the ideal time for planting trees. We often have hot dry summers but planted now trees have 6 months to get established. This is one way I think I can make a bit of a contribution to reducing climate impacts. Otherwise it's hard not to just feel overwhelmed with the scale of the problems & get depressed.
Anyway today hubby & I joined about 80 others in planting 2200 trees & grasses at park they are developing, restoring a local estuarine wetland area.
http://www.hbrc.govt.nz/hawkes-bay/parks-trails-and-open-spaces/waitangi-regional-park/
Many hands made for an easy job, all planted in under 2 hours! I thought you might enjoy this short clip about the project:


Clare

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2017, 07:23:09 AM »
And here's a link to a video of a dawn ceremony blessing 12 new pou being added to the celestial navigation compass being installed at this site.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/hawkes-bay-today/video/news/video.cfm?c_id=1503454&gal_cid=1503454&gallery_id=177892

Sorry I'm not v good at inserting these links properly!

sidd

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2017, 10:44:43 PM »
Paper by Wynes on top individual climate friendly actions:

" ... having one fewer child (an average for developed countries of 58.6 tonnes CO 2 -equivalent (tCO 2 e) emission reductions per year), living car-free (2.4 tCO 2 e saved per year), avoiding airplane travel (1.6 tCO 2 e saved per roundtrip transatlantic flight) and eating a plant-based diet (0.8 tCO 2 e saved per year) ..."

I attach fig 1. paper is at :

http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/aa7541

doi:10.1088/1748-9326/aa7541

open access. read all about it.

sidd

morganism

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #29 on: October 07, 2018, 10:51:48 PM »
Drawdown has a website with a ranked list now

https://www.drawdown.org/solutions-summary-by-rank

Rank    Solution    Sector    TOTAL ATMOSPHERIC CO2-EQ REDUCTION (GT)    Net Cost (BILLIONS US $)    Savings (BILLIONS US $)

1    Refrigerant Management    Materials    89.74    N/A    $-902.77
2    Wind Turbines (Onshore)    Electricity Generation    84.60    $1,225.37    $7,425.00
3    Reduced Food Waste    Food    70.53    N/A    N/A
4    Plant-Rich Diet    Food    66.11    N/A    N/A
5    Tropical Forests    Land Use    61.23    N/A    N/A
6    Educating Girls    Women and Girls    59.60    N/A    N/A
7    Family Planning    Women and Girls    59.60    N/A    N/A
8    Solar Farms    Electricity Generation    36.90    $-80.60    $5,023.84
9    Silvopasture    Food    31.19    $41.59    $699.37
10    Rooftop Solar    Electricity Generation    24.60    $453.14    $3,457.63
11    Regenerative Agriculture    Food    23.15    $57.22    $1,928.10
12    Temperate Forests    Land Use    22.61    N/A    N/A
13    Peatlands    Land Use    21.57    N/A    N/A
14    Tropical Staple Trees    Food    20.19    $120.07    $626.97
15    Afforestation    Land Use    18.06    $29.44    $392.33
16    Conservation Agriculture    Food    17.35    $37.53    $2,119.07
17    Tree Intercropping    Food    17.20    $146.99    $22.10
18    Geothermal    Electricity Generation    16.60    $-155.48    $1,024.34
19    Managed Grazing    Food    16.34    $50.48    $735.27
20    Nuclear    Electricity Generation    16.09    $0.88    $1,713.40
21    Clean Cookstoves    Food    15.81    $72.16    $166.28
22    Wind Turbines (Offshore)    Electricity Generation    14.10    $545.30    $762.50
23    Farmland Restoration    Food    14.08    $72.24    $1,342.47
24    Improved Rice Cultivation    Food    11.34    N/A    $519.06
25    Concentrated Solar    Electricity Generation    10.90    $1,319.70    $413.85
26    Electric Vehicles    Transport    10.80    $14,148.00    $9,726.40
27    District Heating    Buildings and Cities    9.38    $457.10    $3,543.50
28    Multistrata Agroforestry    Food    9.28    $26.76    $709.75
29    Wave and Tidal    Electricity Generation    9.20    $411.84    $-1,004.70
30    Methane Digesters (Large)    Electricity Generation    8.40    $201.41    $148.83
31    Insulation    Buildings and Cities    8.27    $3,655.92    $2,513.33
32    Ships    Transport    7.87    $915.93    $424.38
33    LED Lighting (Household)    Buildings and Cities    7.81    $323.52    $1,729.54
34    Biomass    Electricity Generation    7.50    $402.31    $519.35
35    Bamboo    Land Use    7.22    $23.79    $264.80
36    Alternative Cement    Materials    6.69    $-273.90    N/A
37    Mass Transit    Transport    6.57    N/A    $2,379.73
38    Forest Protection    Land Use    6.20    N/A    N/A
39    Indigenous Peoples’ Land Management    Land Use    6.19    N/A    N/A
40    Trucks    Transport    6.18    $543.54    $2,781.63
41    Solar Water    Electricity Generation    6.08    $2.99    $773.65
42    Heat Pumps    Buildings and Cities    5.20    $118.71    $1,546.66
43    Airplanes    Transport    5.05    $662.42    $3,187.80
44    LED Lighting (Commercial)    Buildings and Cities    5.04    $-205.05    $1,089.63
45    Building Automation    Buildings and Cities    4.62    $68.12    $880.55
46    Water Saving - Home    Materials    4.61    $72.44    $1,800.12
47    Bioplastic    Materials    4.30    $19.15    N/A
48    In-Stream Hydro    Electricity Generation    4.00    $202.53    $568.36
49    Cars    Transport    4.00    $-598.69    $1,761.72
50    Cogeneration    Electricity Generation    3.97    $279.25    $566.93
51    Perennial Biomass    Land Use    3.33    $77.94    $541.89
52    Coastal Wetlands    Land Use    3.19    N/A    N/A
53    System of Rice Intensification    Food    3.13    N/A    $677.83
54    Walkable Cities    Buildings and Cities    2.92    N/A    $3,278.24
55    Household Recycling    Materials    2.77    $366.92    $71.13
56    Industrial Recycling    Materials    2.77    $366.92    $71.13
57    Smart Thermostats    Buildings and Cities    2.62    $74.16    $640.10
58    Landfill Methane    Buildings and Cities    2.50    $-1.82    $67.57
59    Bike Infrastructure    Buildings and Cities    2.31    $-2,026.97    $400.47
60    Composting    Food    2.28    $-63.72    $-60.82
61    Smart Glass    Buildings and Cities    2.19    $932.30    $325.10
62    Women Smallholders    Women and Girls    2.06    N/A    $87.60
63    Telepresence    Transport    1.99    $127.72    $1,310.59
64    Methane Digesters (Small)    Electricity Generation    1.90    $15.50    $13.90
65    Nutrient Management    Food    1.81    N/A    $102.32
66    High-speed Rail    Transport    1.52    $1,038.42    $368.10
67    Farmland Irrigation    Food    1.33    $216.16    $429.67
68    Waste-to-Energy    Electricity Generation    1.10    $36.00    $19.82
69    Electric Bikes    Transport    0.96    $106.75    $226.07
70    Recycled Paper    Materials    0.90    $573.48    N/A
71    Water Distribution    Buildings and Cities    0.87    $137.37    $903.11
72    Biochar    Food    0.81    N/A    N/A
73    Green Roofs    Buildings and Cities    0.77    $1,393.29    $988.46
74    Trains    Transport    0.52    $808.64    $313.86
75    Ridesharing    Transport    0.32    N/A    $185.56
76    Micro Wind    Electricity Generation    0.20    $36.12    $19.90
77    Energy Storage (Distributed)    Electricity Generation    N/A    N/A    N/A
77    Energy Storage (Utilities)    Electricity Generation    N/A    N/A    N/A
77    Grid Flexibility    Electricity Generation    N/A    N/A    N/A
78    Microgrids    Electricity Generation    N/A    N/A    N/A
79    Net Zero Buildings    Buildings and Cities    N/A    N/A    N/A
80    Retrofitting    Buildings and Cities    N/A    N/A    N/A
   

sidd

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2018, 01:28:59 AM »
I notice that refusing to have a child is not on the list ....

sidd

Hefaistos

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2018, 02:12:49 AM »
I notice that refusing to have a child is not on the list ....

sidd

It is:
6    Educating Girls   
7    Family Planning 

And also, having babies at home:
3    Reduced Food Waste
:)

colchonero

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2018, 03:00:05 AM »
I notice that refusing to have a child is not on the list ....

sidd

That shouldn't be on ANY list (I mean everybody can refuse and that is ok, but lately there is almost constant silent encouraging to not have a child).  Advising people not to have family and experience the greatest love and moment of their lives, and also the most important thing in the world is .... (not gonna use any word to describe). If we advise people (and not let animals too) who are (and why??) we saving the planet for? Isn't the whole point of saving our planet, to give future generations a normal life? And no, I don't think people for example in India having 10 kids is good, but not because of global warming, but because they are not able to give them normal standard of life, so those (not in every family but in many)kids struggle and live in huge poverty, sick and sad instead, and those families have much bigger early death rate. Anyway we should focus on real problems, like deforestation, industries providing too much CO2., too much plastic, and garbage all over the world and some other stuff  that is on the list.

BTW if the President Trump would have had an official list with a goal  6. Educating Girls,  heads on twitter, media, and even some people on this forum, would be exploding right now!!

sidd

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2018, 05:46:57 AM »
Re: fewer kids

i believe i have posted this reference already

doi: 10.1088/1748-9326/aa7541

open access. read all about
i attach fig 1.

sidd
« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 06:07:26 AM by sidd »

oren

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2018, 07:46:20 AM »
Quote
And no, I don't think people for example in India having 10 kids is good, but not because of global warming, but because they are not able to give them normal standard of life, so those (not in every family but in many)kids struggle and live in huge poverty, sick and sad instead, and those families have much bigger early death rate. Anyway we should focus on real problems, like deforestation, industries providing too much CO2., too much plastic, and garbage all over the world and some other stuff  that is on the list. 
I disagree. Not having 10 kids has everything to do with the limited carrying capacity of the planet, of which global warming is one aspect. This is true even if you are rich or live in a developed country and can guarantee your children a good education and poverty-free life. I love children and I do have children but I think the cold hard reality is there are too many of us and we are overconsuming the planet (withe resulting deforestation, CO2, plastic, garbage etc.). All these lovely children being born today will have to fight an uphill battle all their adult lives with the environment, and with each other I'm afraid.
So yes, deciding to avoid that 3rd child is certainly a top climate-friendly action.

Sleepy

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #35 on: October 08, 2018, 08:08:32 AM »
« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 08:16:37 AM by Sleepy »
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
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GeoffBeacon

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2018, 12:20:14 PM »
Sidd

That paper by Wynes is peer reviewed nonsense.

Yes, that paper by Wynes is peer reviewed nonsense. Worse, because it was peer reviewed and from an academic source the MSM took it seriously. My take on it was Population is a planet emergency but …. This included:

Quote
The estimates of the emissions from having an extra child used a method developed by Murtaugh and Schlax. This is the method:

–1– Assign half of a child’s emissions to each parent

–2– Add one quarter of the emissions of each grand-child

–3– Add one eighth of the emissions of each great-grand-child

–4– …and so on.

As the number of descendants increase the carbon emissions add up to a very large amount – even though for each descendant the share of their emissions is diminishing. Wynes & Nicholas considered carbon emissions in ‘developed’ nations (average lifetime 80 years), it is possible to see that their estimate of the carbon cost of having an extra child is about 4,668 tonnes CO2e – over 46 times the individual budget (100 tonnes CO2e) for avoiding “dangerous climate change”.

One flaw in this argument is the assumption made by Murtaugh and Schlax that future generations will have carbon emissions similar to the initial parents.

I consider seriously Billhook's comment on Grist that the population debate is a dog whistle against real climate action

Quote
The reason is the sheer routine stupidity of the cases made for Population being a significant factor in resolving global warming.
Look how many years how many commenters have continued pushing the same routinely debunked arguments - while ignoring all of the cogent arguments for actual climate action - and you have something other than a serious widespread honest concern.

What you have is somebody's propaganda effort, predictably using shills, bots and anyone they can get to parrot the chosen memes.

From where I stand there is a fairly clear explanation of this, which is that public opinion is being programmed to see massive future famine casualties in developing countries as 'inevitable', and 'due to the coloureds overbreeding' and 'nothing the US should change course over', such as by taking emergency climate action by SSA geoengineering.

Billhook was commenting on a talk by Kevin Anderson mentioned by J4onian in a previous comment. I'm not sure where Kevin Anderson says this but J4onian quotes him as saying:

Quote
Population is a complete red herring in regards to 2°C budgets.

Even more so in regards to 1.5°C budgets, which are not physically possible any more--partly because we've been delayed by people lying about this and other red herrings.

Kevin Anderson's video is well worth watching.



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Sleepy

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #37 on: October 08, 2018, 02:13:37 PM »
Kevin needs to live on Dungeonmasters servers. :)
He says that at 2:30 in this somewhat extended clip, just to catch why he said that two years ago. The same nasty logic as ever.
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
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Sleepy

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #38 on: October 08, 2018, 08:45:24 PM »
Ironically there has been a twitter discussion today spurred by a Swedish TV show about population growth and here's one of Ola Rosling's tweets (during a discussion with Anders Wijkman) which might interest some of you. I don't use twitter btw (occasionally read), but here's the link:
https://twitter.com/OlaRosling/status/1049306485195530240
Translated:
The richest billion (we at level 4) release 64 times more CO2 than the poorest. Describing general "population growth" as the "problem" misses this gigantic difference. The group that most rapidly has to change behaviour is not "them" (parents in Africa). It is "we": the overconsumers.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 08:57:33 PM by Sleepy »
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colchonero

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #39 on: October 08, 2018, 09:06:12 PM »
It depends on the spectrum, context, and point of view. BTW I agree there is (too) much of us, but it depends where. As somebody mentioned, wealthier (european) countries don't have more than 2 kids on average. Look for example France vs Germany vs Nigeria comparison. In the 60s Germany had almost 80mil people, France and Nigeria 50-55. Now Germany has 82, France 67, Nigeria 155. Net gain Ger +3 (4%), Fra+10-15 (25%)  Nigeria +100million (200%) in just 50 years. India has population growth of 130 million in just 7 and a half years (maybe more if there are unregistered), while Europe hasn't even gained 15 million in the past 20 years, with all the immigration. Population growth since 2000 in Europe is averaging 0.1 or 0.2% per year.   USA  has gained 150 million since 1960. But a lot of that is due to immigration. However immigrant's children born in USA and fully integrated don't average any significant higher birth rate percentage than kids of born US citizens. That clearly shows that it has nothing to do with race or ethnicity (as some racist might claim), but everything to go with the system, lifestyle and culture  (and maybe religion but I don't know about that, not an expert) in every single country .




« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 09:32:52 PM by colchonero »

sidd

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #40 on: October 08, 2018, 09:34:45 PM »
Re: Murtaugh and Schlax (doi: 10.1016/j.gloenvcha.2008.10.007)

Disagreed that they use constant 2005 emissions in their projections. They use three and give a range:

"Optimistic: Each country’s per capita emission rate changes linearly from its 2005 value to a global target of 0.5 t CO2 per person per year by 2100, and emissions continue at that rate indefinitely"

"Constant: Per capita emission rates remain indefinitely at their 2005 values"

"Pessimistic: Each country’s per capita emission rate increases linearly from its 2005 value to 1.5 times its 2005 value by 2100, and emissions continue at that rate indefinitely."

Wynes use the "constant" scenario from the paper. If they had used the "optimistic" scenario, their figure for the USA would have been more like 7 tons CO2/yr rather than 120.

That said, i'll believe the optimistic scenario when i see it happening.

sidd




GeoffBeacon

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #41 on: October 08, 2018, 10:42:02 PM »
sidd

Thanks. You are right about Murtaugh and Schlax.

The nonsense started with Wynes and Nicholas
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magnamentis

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #42 on: October 08, 2018, 11:17:31 PM »
That shouldn't be on ANY list (I mean everybody can refuse and that is ok, but lately there is almost constant silent encouraging to not have a child).  Advising people not to have family and experience the greatest love and moment of their lives, and also the most important thing in the world is .... (not gonna use any word to describe). If we advise people (and not let animals too) who are (and why??) we saving the planet for? Isn't the whole point of saving our planet, to give future generations a normal life?

a bit of dogma is shining through, "most important thing" for me the most important is to develop the spirit, the part that won't disintegrate upon death (call it energy, or bright matter LOL)

procreation is not necessarily the most important thing, only for animals and plants perhaps but that is a long long story.

just for not being misunderstood, that does not mean it's not great to have children, i have 3 and 2 grand children, hence i'm not against, just don't like to see those "absolutisms" (dodmas) because they do and did many times enough bar the root for evil behaviour in all living creatures and only if we consider ourselves nothing but animals would that be true IMO.

EDIT: why exactly should girls and boys education be different, nothing that's there to know does any damage to either gender while lack of knowledge definitels does.

as long as we distinguish between genders when it comes to education, skills and anything but the only real differences, we're not there yet, not by far unfortunately.

similar things apply to kidds. they are to be taken as 100% entities and not as minor when it comes to respect and other things, that includes a certain amount of responsibility.

in short: more respect but also being held responsible. one of the greatest damages is done by the error that a 10 year old morron will automatically grow out of it and become something better automatically without facing appropriate consequences.. uhh... i gonna stop before being drawn away.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 11:24:15 PM by magnamentis »
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colchonero

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2018, 02:21:40 AM »
@magma

It's not dogma, it is really far from dogma. Your or everyone else's most important thing, exactly proves my point. How can you develop spirit, or achieve anything how can you have anything important, anything you like or hate, or ANYTHING at all if you don't exist? I' ve said in my comment, of course people can refuse to have a child, you can't and should never be forced to.  It's just the misunderstanding, you are talking from already existent person's POV, I'm talking in general like the third party.  Imagine we talk about something we are not personally involved in. Like bees for example. We have a conversation about what they should do to have a good life and survive as a specie. Of course they should make a home, they should eat, drink, play football to have fun :D :D, but they'll still go extinct if they don't have kids. That's the only way I meant it. The other part is love, happiness, feelings and family, but those things aren't mentioned as Anti-climate.   And I also wrote in the next comment, that I BELIEVE we are (going to be) overpopulated (and why I think having 10 kids is not good), especially in some parts of the world.

It's hard to explain, with just writing it down and not actually speaking, but believe me dogma is certainly not what I meant. Te lo juro :D

Ranman99

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #44 on: October 09, 2018, 04:21:29 AM »
Or Squirrel's! But I still call them tree rats  ::)
Randy Fitton

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #45 on: October 09, 2018, 09:28:42 PM »
I don't know how it is in other countries, but in Luxembourg having kids is a lot of work even if you have only two of them. Not having too many kids is also a good recommendation just to be able to have a « normal life ». I wont make an advertisement for my « parenthood » t-shirt collection, but TV, smartphone, trendy clothes, computer games, lack of respect and of patience, school work… really makes parenthood an hard experience, and you see it later, not when they are cute little babies. Not to have more kids than what you can handle is generally speaking a good idea, but I believe that education for girls and access to contraception is the best way to achieve that goal, so I would say that these also a better climate-friendly action, I surely wouldn't do it the Chinese way. Maybe having less children is not an action but a choice, so it would have no space in a "top climate-friendly action" list. Educating girls and providing contraception are actions.

EDIT :
Maybe we could have top climate-friendly actions and top climate-friendly choices.
I see the difference in the fact that a choice is something you do for yourself (having less childrens, volontary simplicity ...) and an action is something you do with or for somebody else (educating girls, changing legislation, CO2 tax, community solar...).
When a choice is to be imposed to other people, like the one child policy in China, but also religions, food,... I believe that there is a risk that dogma gets more important than humans.
Actions have to be done together otherwise they have no impact (if you only put solar PV on houses without grid, it won't help much).
« Last Edit: October 10, 2018, 07:42:53 PM by etienne »

GeoffBeacon

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #46 on: October 11, 2018, 12:47:53 PM »
Top climate friendly action is to get rid of most cars.

Starting now we should be building car-free developments with local employment - particularly food production. Since we have so few years to solve the climate not even electric cars are any good - with their enormous embodied carbon and the unavailability of clean electricity.

I've been pushing car-free living since the 1970s. Then because a car-free town is a better town. Now because cars are at the centre of planet destroying lifestyles.

Currently I'm suggesting that we have car-free additions to existing villages, towns and cities as a start.

See Garden Cities and Green Evolutionary Settlements


« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 12:54:51 PM by GeoffBeacon »
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colchonero

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #47 on: October 11, 2018, 06:11:15 PM »
 I think Europe has a much bigger chance (though not big at all) of reducing the number of cars on the roads, than we in the US. Since I live in both (depends on the time of the year, and my schedule) I couldn't not notice how much Americans "live on the road" compared to Europe. Living and working in the US without a car is very difficult. You can forget about public transportation excluding subway, mostly in NYC. If you go to the countryside without a car, well good luck with that.

TerryM

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #48 on: October 11, 2018, 08:48:15 PM »
If the US had spent a small part of her military budget on HSR, E-Trolleys and E-Bicycle infrastructure she'd be leading the world - rather than threatening it.


Car ownership was a huge status symbol prior to WWII, now it's become more indicative of those who care little for the wellbeing of their fellows.


I think Tar $ Pitchforks will appear on a not too far distant horizon.
Two or three more Michaels , with the victims understanding the underlying cause, and the social contract that keeps mobs from attacking their betters will be strained - possibly to the breaking point.


Thousands of militarized police will keep our enclaves safe, for a price.

Terry
[Edit] Sorry about the rant - probably an inappropriate thread.

GeoffBeacon

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Re: Top climate-friendly actions
« Reply #49 on: October 12, 2018, 12:17:03 PM »

Urban Planning is key to climate.

colchonero
Quote
I think Europe has a much bigger chance (though not big at all) of reducing the number of cars on the roads, than we in the US.

It's not just about cars on roads we must get away from car-based living. I've just found this piece on Smithsonian.com about one of my heroes from the seventies, Victor Gruen:

Quote
The father of the American shopping mall, the Austrian-born architect Victor Gruen, envisioned the mall as a sort of European-style town center for the American suburbs. He saw malls as climate-controlled Main Streets, with post offices, supermarkets and cafes, set amidst larger complexes with schools, parks, medical centers and residences. You’d hardly need to drive at all. Gruen found cars repulsive.

But only part of Gruen’s vision caught on: the climate-controlled gray box, famous for encouraging car culture rather than stopping it. In 1978, the elderly Gruen railed against what his idea had become.

“I would like to take this opportunity to disclaim paternity once and for all,” he said. “I refuse to pay alimony to those bastard developments. They destroyed our cities.”

The article goes on to describe how in some places Gruen's vision is coming true:
Quote
Malls are dying in some places, yes, their too-expensive-to-remove corpses littering the landscape. But in other places malls are becoming “lifestyle centers” much like what Gruen envisioned. And some are going beyond that, turning into entirely different things: apartment complexes, churches, schools. Down the road, urban planners see even more uses: farms, performance venues, pop-up event spaces.

I pray that the current breed of urban planners will be much better than the ones in the 20th century.

Urban Planning is key to climate.
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