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blumenkraft

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #150 on: June 20, 2020, 03:12:25 PM »
Hey, OTG, welcome to the forum.

That link (https://cires1.colorado.edu/~aslater/SEAICE/this_year_map.png) is updated daily. If you open this link (which happens when you open this thread) it would only see the recent uploaded file at that link.

If you want to keep the original, you have to download it from the Slater site, and then upload it to the forum as an attachment to your post.

Freegrass

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #151 on: June 20, 2020, 03:23:00 PM »
Oops... My bad. It is indeed updating.
90% of the world is religious, but somehow "love thy neighbour" became "fuck thy neighbours", if they don't agree with your point of view.

WTF happened?

blumenkraft

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #152 on: June 20, 2020, 03:26:18 PM »
Think about it, FG. There is no date in the URL. How would the server know which picture you mean without that? So logically it can only be the most recent one at this URL.

OffTheGrid

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #153 on: June 22, 2020, 02:08:59 AM »
 Heres the tenth of August as a reference to return to.
Does this model usually return such jagged prediction curve? Seems weird. Can't predict weather 50 days ahead.

Freegrass

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #154 on: June 22, 2020, 02:32:01 AM »
I still haven't figured out what the light blue line indicates. What does anomaly forecast mean?
90% of the world is religious, but somehow "love thy neighbour" became "fuck thy neighbours", if they don't agree with your point of view.

WTF happened?

oren

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #155 on: June 22, 2020, 08:57:43 AM »
Heres the tenth of August as a reference to return to.
Does this model usually return such jagged prediction curve? Seems weird. Can't predict weather 50 days ahead.
I am almost certain the jagged prediction curve is a result of the abnormally jagged NSIDC area curve at the time the forecast was made. And in general I doubt this model's output.

binntho

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #156 on: June 22, 2020, 09:12:47 AM »
And in general I doubt this model's output.

As do I. But in an earlier discussion, it was pointed out that Slater's model apparently has the best track record at predicting the average September extent.
because a thing is eloquently expressed it should not be taken to be as necessarily true
St. Augustine, Confessions V, 6

oren

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #157 on: June 22, 2020, 10:01:04 AM »
OTG, bear in mind the model does not predict the path of extent, just a point 50 days ahead based on the currently available data. This prediction is generated every day, and you can connect the resulting points using the thick blue line, and it looks like a path, but it's not. Just a collection of predictions made at different times for different times.
Caveat: this was discussed last year and many people said it was a predicted path. Just be aware of the various opinions.

Freegrass

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #158 on: July 06, 2020, 10:48:08 AM »
Slater is going mental. 4,05 on August 24.
That red over the CAB is where the ice got "stretched out" as I said it back then.
90% of the world is religious, but somehow "love thy neighbour" became "fuck thy neighbours", if they don't agree with your point of view.

WTF happened?

Richard Rathbone

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #159 on: July 06, 2020, 11:18:58 AM »
What does anomaly forecast mean?

That if its 100k below the norm for the time of year now, it will be 100k below the norm for the time of year in future.


Freegrass

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #160 on: July 12, 2020, 02:10:26 AM »
Is anyone still maintaining the Slater website? It looks like their security certificate needs to get an update, because the site is getting a warning now.

Your connection is not private
This server could not prove that it is cires1.colorado.edu; its security certificate expired 3 days ago.

https://cires1.colorado.edu/~aslater/SEAICE/
90% of the world is religious, but somehow "love thy neighbour" became "fuck thy neighbours", if they don't agree with your point of view.

WTF happened?

Freegrass

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #161 on: July 12, 2020, 02:11:22 AM »
What does anomaly forecast mean?

That if its 100k below the norm for the time of year now, it will be 100k below the norm for the time of year in future.
I kinda get it. It's basically not important, right?
90% of the world is religious, but somehow "love thy neighbour" became "fuck thy neighbours", if they don't agree with your point of view.

WTF happened?

Richard Rathbone

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #162 on: July 12, 2020, 03:06:53 AM »
What does anomaly forecast mean?

That if its 100k below the norm for the time of year now, it will be 100k below the norm for the time of year in future.
I kinda get it. It's basically not important, right?

Its an indication of how good (or not) the Slater forecast is. The anomaly forecast  is easy to make, so a complex model has to beat it to be considered of any use.

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #163 on: September 17, 2020, 02:27:47 AM »
Slater's model deserves more credit than it gets. Once again.
And, given a story to enact in which the world is a foe to be conquered, they will conquer it like a foe, and one day, inevitably, their foe will lie bleeding to death at their feet, as the world is now.
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binntho

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #164 on: September 17, 2020, 06:31:15 AM »
To my eyes it seems to be wildly off ... so not sure what there is to credit.
because a thing is eloquently expressed it should not be taken to be as necessarily true
St. Augustine, Confessions V, 6

Ktb

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #165 on: September 17, 2020, 07:39:50 AM »
Anomaly forecast is spot on?
And, given a story to enact in which the world is a foe to be conquered, they will conquer it like a foe, and one day, inevitably, their foe will lie bleeding to death at their feet, as the world is now.
- Ishmael

binntho

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #166 on: September 17, 2020, 08:48:43 AM »
Anomaly forecast is spot on?
"Spot on" is apt - the red and the light-blue lines only touch that one time! Not a good match in my not so humble opinion.

Besides, what is meant by "Anomaly foreacast" ...
because a thing is eloquently expressed it should not be taken to be as necessarily true
St. Augustine, Confessions V, 6

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #167 on: September 17, 2020, 09:32:22 AM »
Clearly by spot on I meant that their anomaly forecast for minimum was accurate. And there is ample discussion in this thread about what Anomaly forecast means, what the 50 day lead is, and the comparisons between the two.

Peruse at your pleasure.
And, given a story to enact in which the world is a foe to be conquered, they will conquer it like a foe, and one day, inevitably, their foe will lie bleeding to death at their feet, as the world is now.
- Ishmael

binntho

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #168 on: September 17, 2020, 09:46:39 AM »
Clearly by spot on I meant that their anomaly forecast for minimum was accurate. And there is ample discussion in this thread about what Anomaly forecast means, what the 50 day lead is, and the comparisons between the two.

Peruse at your pleasure.

So you mean an "explanation" like this one here:

What does anomaly forecast mean?

That if its 100k below the norm for the time of year now, it will be 100k below the norm for the time of year in future.

Which is not very helpful. But of course if nobody understands what Anomaly forecast is, then the lack of understandable explanations become clear. The Slater website makes no attempt at explanation.

As long as nobody can explain what the Anomaly line means, there is no way to claim that the Slater model has been anywhere near being able to make any real predictions this year.

Just look at the graph. The dark blue line jumps all over the place with very little correlation with the red line, predictive valu nil. The light blue line is practically never comes close to the red line except at the very end.  And since nobody knows what the blue line is showing, no conclusions can be drawn from it!

The Slater website has 2016 as "last year", shown below. That year the predictions were actually quite good, notice the close correlation between the red and dark blue lines towards main melting season, while the the light blue line stays well away from both.
because a thing is eloquently expressed it should not be taken to be as necessarily true
St. Augustine, Confessions V, 6

El Cid

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #169 on: September 17, 2020, 10:12:41 AM »
The anomaly forecast (light blue line) is NOT the Slater forecast. It is simply there to show what a naive forecast approach would be, ie. looking at the current anomaly and saying that the size of the anomaly would stay the same in the future.

The Slater forecast is the dark blue line.

This year the "naive" approach was spot on, while the "official" Slater model was behind events (overestimating final extent by cca 0,5 m sq km). Also, the final distribution of ice was wrong.

So once again, the light blue line is just a guide to highlight the model's difference from a naive forecast approach.

binntho

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #170 on: September 17, 2020, 10:17:50 AM »
The anomaly forecast (light blue line) is NOT the Slater forecast. It is simply there to show what a naive forecast approach would be, ie. looking at the current anomaly and saying that the size of the anomaly would stay the same in the future.
A bit clearer, but still more needed: How is the anomaly calculated (i.e. anomaly of what from what) and is "the future" the same 50 days as in the Slater forecast?
because a thing is eloquently expressed it should not be taken to be as necessarily true
St. Augustine, Confessions V, 6

El Cid

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #171 on: September 17, 2020, 01:29:30 PM »
As far as I remember it is like this:

Both forecasts are made 50 days in advance.

The anomaly ("naive") forecast (which is there for reference only!) simply takes a look at the current extent anomaly vs some sort of longer term average and adds that anomaly to the average of T+50, eg. if July 1 ice extent average for the past 10 years is 10 M sqkm and this year it is 9 m sqkm, then the anomaly is -1 M sqkm. 50 days from now is August 19. We take a look at the Aug 19 average, which is let's say 6 M sqkm, so the forecast for Aug 19 (made on July 1) is 6-1= 5 M sqkm.

The official model breaks down the Arctic into many plots and takes a look at each plot's survival probablities based on past years' data and makes its forecast for 50 days from now for each plot. Then the plots are summarized.


binntho

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #172 on: September 17, 2020, 01:53:12 PM »
Thanks El Cid. I'll try to remember that til next time! But the "naive" forecast seems to have predicted the minimum pretty well, while Slater's predictions are off the mark by an unusual amount.

Which tells us ... about the Artic and the changes it is undergoing (fill in blank with your thoughts).
because a thing is eloquently expressed it should not be taken to be as necessarily true
St. Augustine, Confessions V, 6

uniquorn

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #173 on: July 17, 2021, 01:27:56 AM »
<> That is one heck of a prediction! <>
I attach images from https://cires1.colorado.edu/~aslater/SEAICE/
12th looks right - but I don't believe it will happen like that

~50% probability that the Fram funnel is ~50% ice free. That would be different.
It's a big change from the sep3 prediction.

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #174 on: July 17, 2021, 08:07:41 AM »
In my experience Slater's model has been quite good at estimating the minimum extent but not necessarily the exact location(s of ice) and the date of the minimum. It's worth looking at the model at this time of the year to gauge expected minimum extent but not date. It seems that Slater's model puts the minimum at slightly below 4 M sq km. So we shall see in september whether it happens so...

uniquorn

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #175 on: July 17, 2021, 10:23:52 AM »
Understood. I was thinking that the map might give some indication of how the calculations were made. Is there an archive of the maps anywhere?

Richard Rathbone

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #176 on: July 17, 2021, 11:01:16 AM »
Slater's model is a correlation between current concentration and future extent.

Low concentration now => low chance ice is still there at the minimum.

El Cid

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #177 on: July 17, 2021, 11:05:04 AM »
Understood. I was thinking that the map might give some indication of how the calculations were made. Is there an archive of the maps anywhere?

Unfortunately there is no archive of maps. Someone from ASIF wrote a script that saves the daily maps but I forgot who.

Calculations: just like Richard says. The model looks at previous years and examines how likely it was at a given spot from a given concentration percentage to go to another percentage and makes its forecast accordingly

I think it is a pretty good model and ouperformed most forecasters in the past years

Glen Koehler

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #178 on: July 17, 2021, 11:54:44 AM »
     The Slater model may be about to get a good test if I am reading it correctly.  The Extent decline curve flattens out for late July.  It will be interesting to see if observations verify or refute that prediction.  But I suspect that the values along the blue line of the Slater model chart do not actually represent predictions for the rate of Extent decline on those specific dates.  If so, it would not be appropriate to compare the observed rate of decline for a one or two-week period against the slope of the Slater curve for those dates.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2021, 07:02:22 PM by Glen Koehler »
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oren

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #179 on: July 17, 2021, 05:23:15 PM »
ps: The Slater projection has moved forward one day from the 3rd Sept projection of 4.66 million km2 changing to 4.84 million km2 on the 4th.

That is one heck of a prediction!

On the Slater images, the end of the line on the graph shows the latest prediction, which is a fixed number of days from present. Each time it updates, the line gets a new point on the end and continues to the right, but all the previous points on the line stay as they are.

In other words the line shows the history of predictions at a fixed lead time, not a prediction of what will happen with the ice. So that large increase in september is really just an upward change in the prediction - it isn't predicting that the ice will refreeze.

I think this post by josh-j quoted from the main thread should be emphasized. Some people take Slater's line as predicting the specific path to a certain point 50 days away, but it's really a collection of predictions each made 50 days in advance.

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #180 on: July 17, 2021, 10:28:05 PM »
I think this post by josh-j quoted from the main thread should be emphasized. Some people take Slater's line as predicting the specific path to a certain point 50 days away, but it's really a collection of predictions each made 50 days in advance.
If this continues to cause confusion then yes, this can't be emphasized enough!
Changes in the slope of the dark blue line don't reflect expected large drops/increases in sea ice at that time. They reflect shifts in the model's confidence in its prediction.

In the mean time, Slater's model for September 5th has moved up again, to 4.88M km2.


« Last Edit: July 17, 2021, 10:39:18 PM by Renerpho »
Before I came here I was confused about this subject. Having listened to your lecture I am still confused. But on a higher level.

uniquorn

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #181 on: July 18, 2021, 08:58:15 PM »
map for sep6

so in 4 days the probability of ESS thickest ice surviving drops from ~47% to ~17%
Kara probability mostly increases
(according to the forecast)
« Last Edit: July 18, 2021, 09:12:22 PM by uniquorn »

uniquorn

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #182 on: July 18, 2021, 09:38:00 PM »
87% probability that this is for the best ;)  my estimate or I might have spent hours looking at them
« Last Edit: July 18, 2021, 11:23:56 PM by uniquorn »

uniquorn

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #183 on: July 21, 2021, 01:09:34 AM »
Today's 50 day Slater Probailistic Sea Ice Extent forecast has picked out Polarstern's route to the pole
aug24 and sep3-7
that's all I have

Steven

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #184 on: July 21, 2021, 10:36:33 AM »
Don't read too much into those Slater maps.  It is basically just the NSIDC concentration map, with a few tweaks.

The daily values don't matter much:  Slater's method was originally designed to predict the September monthly average extent. So the daily fluctuations are smoothed out by taking a 30-day average.

Also, it's unclear to me if Slater's webpage is still maintained correctly after his death in 2016.  Something seems to have changed with the maps in 2018: link.

uniquorn

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #185 on: July 21, 2021, 01:27:57 PM »
okeydokey

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #186 on: July 21, 2021, 03:31:03 PM »
I don't subscribe much to this model and its predictions. This is not your grandfather's Arctic, the changes are accumulating, meanwhile Slater's model is by definition outdated following his tragic passing.
Maybe this is the year that the prediction is totally out of whack, or maybe the model gets lucky again (as I see it), but I think its predictive power is rather low and shrinking.

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #187 on: July 21, 2021, 05:01:33 PM »
I don't subscribe much to this model and its predictions. This is not your grandfather's Arctic, the changes are accumulating, meanwhile Slater's model is by definition outdated following his tragic passing.

I think you are wrong about this oren. Theoretically, Slater's model takes the past years' melting dynamics and extrapolates those, so it should update itself and not stick to grandpa's Arctic.

He specifically says that the model uses the past 9 years' results:

"Methods : Baseline probability of ice for
each pixel is made via multi-windowed
LOWESS regression
and then
updated during melt season based on
survival probabilities which are
calculated each day of year for a given
concentration of sea ice (left). Survival
probability curves are calculated each
year using the prior 9 years of data
."

kassy

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #188 on: July 22, 2021, 02:36:52 PM »
From the executive summary of the latest submission. https://www.arcus.org/files/sio/29668/nsidc_barrettslaterpan-arctic.pdf

"Forecasts issued on July 1 for September have lead times spanning 62 to 91 days."

Looking through the history it seems this is an innovation of Barrett and Slater did indeed use multiple starting days at the same lead time while Barrett uses the Slater model with one starting day at multiple lead times.

Another good description in the linked pdf.

Maybe the Barrett vs Slater thing is the reason for the change Steven mentions?
I am pretty sure a change in the model has been discussed before. Might be on some of the posts after the quoted one.

The model uses recent data so it should hold well as long as nothing exceptional happens. Some day we might see it break. If a storm destroys lots of ice in the CAB in the last two weeks of august that might throw things off. A big hole in the CAB earlier would also be interesting because that should mess with the output too.
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #189 on: July 26, 2021, 01:37:28 PM »
The Slater projection for 13th September (very much around the average date of the minmum) is 4.94 million km2, which would certainly put the cat amongst the pigeons. (1st & 2nd images attached)

Using Wipneus data as at 24 July of area and extent suggests to me that the Slater projection looks much more at area data than extent for forecasting the extent 50 days in the future. (3rd and 4th images attached). I suggest that as the Slater forecast went up when the sea ice area went up, while extent sea ice losses slowed but showed much less pronounced change.

At the moment there is quite a contrast between area and extent daily changes. For why? Not a clue.

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #190 on: July 26, 2021, 02:20:38 PM »
Clue: melt ponds drained so the apparent area went up where they drained.

Freegrass

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #191 on: July 27, 2021, 08:16:53 PM »
Slater is going completely ballistic now... Above 5M m2.
Notable is the ice on the Pacific side and the Kara sea...
« Last Edit: July 27, 2021, 08:24:53 PM by Freegrass »
90% of the world is religious, but somehow "love thy neighbour" became "fuck thy neighbours", if they don't agree with your point of view.

WTF happened?

gerontocrat

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #192 on: July 27, 2021, 08:34:04 PM »
Slater is going completely ballistic now... Above 5M m2.
Notable is the ice on the Pacific side and the Kara sea...
The Slater simply projects a forecast of the sea ice extent for that one day 50 days ahead. It is not forecasting the minimum.

15th September could well be after the minimum, so is the Slater projection assuming refreeze has started by 15th September?

Can anyone tell us?
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
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kassy

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #193 on: July 27, 2021, 09:02:34 PM »
Maybe but that would be from data from the 9 prior years. We have to wait to see if it happens.
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

Freegrass

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #194 on: July 27, 2021, 09:32:05 PM »
Slater is going completely ballistic now... Above 5M m2.
Notable is the ice on the Pacific side and the Kara sea...
The Slater simply projects a forecast of the sea ice extent for that one day 50 days ahead. It is not forecasting the minimum.

15th September could well be after the minimum, so is the Slater projection assuming refreeze has started by 15th September?

Can anyone tell us?
I think I picked up something on the melting season thread that the minimum usually is later when extent at the minimum is high? It would make sense to me, because the ice edge would still be further south?
90% of the world is religious, but somehow "love thy neighbour" became "fuck thy neighbours", if they don't agree with your point of view.

WTF happened?

oren

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #195 on: July 27, 2021, 09:56:00 PM »
In any case I would agree Slater's model is reacting to the serious slowdown in area losses, as suggested upthread. When area loss is lower than the last 9 years average, predicted extent goes up, and vice versa.

OTOH, I expect area losses to pick up again, and I believe some of the slowdown is ice hidden by clouds.

gerontocrat

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #196 on: July 30, 2021, 05:01:58 PM »
Slater's 50 day projection is now for the 18th Sept, some 5 days later than the last 10 years average date of minimum, and is steadily increasing.

I am almost totally convinced that the Slater projection is now projecting the beginning of the freezing season.

Only NSIDC has the answer ?
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

kassy

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #197 on: July 30, 2021, 08:51:10 PM »
We still have some outer seas to melt out , i wonder what that will do with the projection. It will be interesting to see if this date holds.
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

Freegrass

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #198 on: July 31, 2021, 03:04:19 PM »
I've added my own projection. What do you think? All will depend on the weather of course, but I can see us approximating the average trend, while ending up a little lower than projected by Slater.

Lets see how far off I'll be in the end...  :-\

Edited my drawing a little. I think this is more probable. But it's always a gamble of course...
I think we'll end up somewhere around 4.75. Where would that put us in the list?
« Last Edit: July 31, 2021, 03:52:53 PM by Freegrass »
90% of the world is religious, but somehow "love thy neighbour" became "fuck thy neighbours", if they don't agree with your point of view.

WTF happened?

Freegrass

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Re: Slater's thread
« Reply #199 on: August 19, 2021, 07:46:41 AM »
It looks like my prediction wasn't even conservative enough. Will we end up above 5m km2 this year? And thus did Slater get it absolutely right again?  :o
90% of the world is religious, but somehow "love thy neighbour" became "fuck thy neighbours", if they don't agree with your point of view.

WTF happened?