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Who are you going to vote for?

Clinton
31 (70.5%)
Johnson
2 (4.5%)
Stein
6 (13.6%)
Trump
1 (2.3%)
Not going to vote / going to spoil ballot
4 (9.1%)

Total Members Voted: 43

Voting closed: November 26, 2016, 07:11:49 AM

Author Topic: The Trump Presidency  (Read 681723 times)

Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4700 on: August 14, 2018, 05:23:17 PM »
Maybe the Trump folks can help me answer these questions:

1)  Why has job growth slowed down under Trump?  In his first 18 months on the job, job growth has been slower than during Obama's last 18 months under Obama?  Trump promised more jobs under him than Obama.  Why has he failed at that?

https://www.businessinsider.com/charts-prove-trumps-statements-about-economy-are-false-2018-7

2)
  Trump promised 4% annual growth PER YEAR.  That has NOT materialized.  Why has Trump not met his promise?  He has achieved 4% growth IN ONLY ONE QUARTER and that was 4.1% ..... Obama achieved 4% growth per quarter in several quarters, and some of those were 4.5%, 4.7%, 4.9% and 5.1%.  Why has Trump lagged?

https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-economy-economic-growth-gdp-failed-promise-davos-792406

https://www.businessinsider.com/charts-prove-trumps-statements-about-economy-are-false-2018-7

3)  Trump promised "better healthcare and cheaper healthcare."  NEITHER of those has happened.  He wants to bring back "pre-existing conditions".  Why has Trump not met this promise?  Why is healthcare MORE EXPENSIVE AND WORSE under Trump?

4)  When is Mexico going to "pay for the wall"?  Trump said he was a great negotiator and he would get Mexico to pay for the wall.  Why has he failed at that?

5)  Trump said he "would get the best and brightest" to serve in his administration.  Well .... that was clearly a lie.  He has had 61% turnover in his first 18 months ..... and his administration has been fraught with scandal.  Speaking of best and brightest, Rick Perry is the Secretary of Energy and he had a 2.2 GPA from Texas A&M.  HINT:  That's not good.

6)
  Why does Trump constantly lie about EVERYTHING?

Would some Trumpian like to "step up to the plate" and tell us what uncle Donnie has done ..... AND PROVIDE FACTS AND LINKS ...... not just "thoughts and prayers."

Looking forward to seeing links to your answers to the 6 questions above.

Chow .....



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AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4701 on: August 14, 2018, 05:25:01 PM »
U.S. military personnel are just another tool to Trump that he wants to use to start a war (in order to increase his authoritarian powers) and then to wash his hands of:

Title: "The Trump administration is dismantling financial protections for the military"

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/8/14/17684810/military-lending-act-mick-mulvaney-cfpb-loans

Extract: "Predatory lenders disproportionately target military members. The CFPB will no longer supervise them."
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mostly_lurking

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4702 on: August 14, 2018, 05:42:28 PM »
Maybe the Trump folks can help me answer these questions:


I'll answer you in your own system, although you never address anything I say.

18 months


You are judging him based in 1.5 years of work. Effectively he maybe has 1 year of influence.
Give it another year and we'll see (although you and most here will never give any credit to him) The people will decide in 2020- no matter what you think is the truth- that is all that matters.


Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4703 on: August 14, 2018, 06:00:55 PM »
Quote
You are judging him based in 1.5 years of work. Effectively he maybe has 1 year of influence. Give it another year and we'll see (although you and most here will never give any credit to him)

I'm judging him based on WHAT HE SAID HE WOULD DO ..... AND WHEN HE WOULD DO IT.

He's batting ZERO.

EIGHTEEN MONTHS IN ..... LIST HIS ACCOMPLISHMENTS:


1)  Taken healthcare away from millions of low wage and middle income people.

2) Shifted wealth TO THE WEALTHY ..... FROM THE MIDDLE CLASS.  Well done Donnie....

3)  Managed to have the worst relationship with Germany, Great Britain, and France in memory.

4)
  Managed to raise the price of gasoline by reneging on the multilateral missile  agreement.

5) No agreement on Korea ..... even though he said it was a "done deal"

6)
  Continued to act like some guy in junior high school that can't speak or write in his own native tongue

7) Berate the US intelligence agencies TIME AFTER TIME ..... and refuse to admit that Russia was and is, interfering in our elections.  And not willing to do ANYTHNG about it.

Eighteen months was enough time for him to screw things up ...... why hasn't he done ANYTHING OF GOOD SUBSTANCE IN THAT TIME PERIOD?





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Neven

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4704 on: August 14, 2018, 06:23:30 PM »
I agree with mostly_lurking on the deplorables stuff and the voter shaming. The question is: What percentage of Trump voters would switch to an authentic alternative on the left, given SteveMDFP's list, which is also correct?

If they don't switch, Trump will get re-elected. I somehow don't think the Mueller witch hunt (mind you, Trump is a witch) will get them to switch. Quite the contrary. It plays right into Donnie's tiny hands.
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SteveMDFP

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4705 on: August 14, 2018, 06:28:16 PM »
  He is doing basically EXACTLY what he said he would do. If you would checkout the walkaway movement you will see many people that voted Hillary that today support Trump because of 1) They see some positive things in what he does 2) They hate what the media is doing with their Trump derangement syndrome.

Except he isn't doing what he promised.  He's doing much the opposite.


You are cherry picking. Of course he hasn't done it all . He is 18 months in. For answering the question why he has support - what is important is what Trump supporters think- not you. Ask almost any one of them. They practically all say he is.  At the most they are pissed about the wall not being up yet and Hillary not in jail :)-  now those 2 things won't push ANY Trump supporter towards the left.

No cherry picking.  I've listed a number of broad policy areas, collectively dangerous and destructive.

I do talk with Trump supporters from time to time.  I tend to find them misinformed, anti-immigrant, and to be "America First" nationalists.  It's sad.

You really expect Trump to reverse direction?  To propose a health plan that will cover everyone?  To shift tax burdens to the wealthy?  To strengthen environmental protections?  Consumer protections?  He promised these, and he's delivering the opposite.

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4706 on: August 14, 2018, 06:50:24 PM »
The question is: What percentage of Trump voters would switch to an authentic alternative on the left, (...)

If they don't switch, Trump will get re-elected.
No need to switch, just stay home and not vote. Like potential D voters in 2016, who were discouraged by the Hillary=witch propaganda. They handed victory to Trump by not voting.

Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4707 on: August 14, 2018, 07:21:03 PM »
So ...... what could happen in the coming days/weeks/months to IMPROVE Traitor Donnie's poll numbers?

1)  The outcome of the Paul Manafort trial #1?  That outcome should be out by maybe next week some time.

2)  The Summer Zervos trial?

https://newrepublic.com/minutes/148457/defamation-lawsuit-trump-moves-one-step-closer-dreaded-discovery-phase

3)  Paul Manafort trial #2 coming up starting on September 17th?

4)  A tape recording of Donald Trump using the "N word"?

5)  Michael Cohen flipping?

6)  Paul Manafort flipping?

7)  Information regarding the Trump inauguration fund used as a "piggy bank" by the little piggy's in the Trump group?  Rick Gates VERY WELL MAY HAVE INFORMATION ON THAT.

So ..... there are several things that could "improve" Donnie's poll numbers.  Which ones are going to happen?  Inquiring minds want to know.....  ;)
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Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4708 on: August 14, 2018, 08:22:02 PM »
Oh my God ..... it looks like ethics is spreading:

Bobby Goodlatte slams his GOP Congressman father Bob Goodlatte, endorses Democrat to replace him

Quote
Mainstream Americans can’t wait to be rid of Goodlatte, who has humiliated himself in office. Now it turns out Goodlatte’s own son is ashamed of him as well.

Earlier today, Donald Trump gloated on Twitter after he and his House GOP allies managed to get FBI agent Peter Strzok fired as a direct result of their nonstop lies about him. Bob Goodlatte was one of the worst offenders. Today his son Bobby Goodlatte tweeted this: “I’m deeply embarrassed that Peter Strzok’s career was ruined by my father’s political grandstanding. That committee hearing was a low point for Congress. Thank you for your service sir. You are a patriot.”

http://www.palmerreport.com/analysis/bob-goodlatte-son-gop-trump/11998/

Stephen Miller Is an Immigration Hypocrite. I Know Because I’m His Uncle.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/08/13/stephen-miller-is-an-immigration-hypocrite-i-know-because-im-his-uncle-219351

Next thing you know Omarosa will be repenting and coming clean..... ;)

Ethics and truth may yet survive Traitor Trump .....
« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 09:38:19 PM by Buddy »
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AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4709 on: August 15, 2018, 12:23:43 AM »
Penn Jillette provides some tangential support some of Omarosa's allegations related to Trump's behavior while working on the "Celebrity Apprentice":

Title: "Penn Jillette: Trump said 'racially insensitive things' during 'Apprentice' tapings"

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/401721-penn-jillette-trump-said-racially-insensitive-things-during

Extract: "Comedian and magician Penn Jillette said in a new interview that he heard President Trump "say racially insensitive things that made [him] uncomfortable" during tapings of "Celebrity Apprentice" as new claims from ex-White House aide Omarosa Manigault Newman, a former contestant on "The Apprentice," make headlines.

Jillette, who was a contestant on the show in 2013, told Vulture in an interview published Tuesday that Trump would "ramble" during tapings of his former reality TV show.
“I don’t think he ever said anything in that room like ‘African-Americans are inferior’ or anything about rape or grabbing women, but of those two hours every other day in a room with him, every 10 minutes was fingernails on chalkboard," Jillette said. "He would ask one cast member if he’d rather have sex with this woman or that woman."

Jillette, who makes up one half of the magic-comedy duo Penn & Teller, also said he believes “Apprentice” creator Mark Burnett has tapes of Trump saying "damaging things." He said that he was “in the room” when Trump used the language, but declined to give specifics. Jillette’s comments come as Manigault Newman alleges that she has heard tapes of Trump using the N-word on the set of the NBC series."

Edit, see also:

Title: "Penn Jillette Says Trump 'Apprentice' Tapes Exist: "I Was in the Room""

https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/penn-jillette-says-trump-apprentice-tapes-exist-i-was-in-the-room/ar-BBLVQ6w?ocid=spartandhp
« Last Edit: August 15, 2018, 03:35:50 AM by AbruptSLR »
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mostly_lurking

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4710 on: August 15, 2018, 08:33:30 AM »

Eighteen months was enough time for him to screw things up ...... why hasn't he done ANYTHING OF GOOD SUBSTANCE IN THAT TIME PERIOD?


Ask Trump supporters if you dare. They will say you are wrong. They know it takes time.Most think he is doing a good job. "Good" is subjective and yours isn't the same as Trumpsters.

Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4711 on: August 15, 2018, 09:09:58 PM »
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/trump-opts-revoke-former-cia-director-brennan-s-security-clearance-n901026

Trump opts to revoke former CIA director Brennan's security clearance

The attempt to "silence" John Brenan will backfire on Traitor Donnie.  Trump's removing Brennan's security clearance is not a big deal to Brenan ..... and it will only serve to agitate others to come out of the woodwork.  It is also an attempt by Donnie to change the subject after Omarosa's busy several days has obviously gotten under Traitor Trump's thin skin.

I'm STILL wondering when we will hear from McMaster.  I HOPE he didn't sign a NDA (non disclosure agreement).

Also ..... the breadth of the NDA's may make them worthless..... and it will be interesting to see if anyone else (other than Omarosa) starts to speak out.

At any rate ..... expect more folks to start speaking up as Traitor Donnie moves towards the edge of the cliff (the cliff being when he fires Rosenstien and/or Sessions).

Traitor Don continues to melt down as expected.  Omarosa has him right by the testicles and she is squeezing right now.  Pressure kills .......   
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ritter

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4712 on: August 16, 2018, 01:30:53 AM »

Eighteen months was enough time for him to screw things up ...... why hasn't he done ANYTHING OF GOOD SUBSTANCE IN THAT TIME PERIOD?


Ask Trump supporters if you dare. They will say you are wrong. They know it takes time.Most think he is doing a good job. "Good" is subjective and yours isn't the same as Trumpsters.
These are the same people that like the ACA but hate Obamacare, right?

The issue you seem to be missing is that Trump is moving in the opposite direction of his campaign promises (with the exception of imprisoning immigrant children and "America First" isolationism by sinking relationships with our allies and embracing relationships with North Korea and Russia). With only 18 months in, you'd think he'd be attempting to move toward those promises, not putting up more hurdles for himself. Kind of makes me think he's full of $hit.

mostly_lurking

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4713 on: August 16, 2018, 08:55:01 AM »

..snip

 People may not like what Trump admin has done but he has been keeping his election campaign promises more than I think any prior president has in modern time. And those who voted for him totally agree he has.

Check out how the Trump WH put it here https://www.promiseskept.com/

,

God damn you  :D     I'm about to answer and see you have done so in a perfect manner and leave me jobless  8)

mostly_lurking

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4714 on: August 16, 2018, 11:24:41 AM »

Trump opts to revoke former CIA director Brennan's security clearance


mostly_lurking

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4715 on: August 16, 2018, 01:06:22 PM »

These are the same people that like the ACA but hate Obamacare, right?

The issue you seem to be missing is that Trump is moving in the opposite direction of his campaign promises (with the exception of imprisoning immigrant children and "America First" isolationism by sinking relationships with our allies and embracing relationships with North Korea and Russia). With only 18 months in, you'd think he'd be attempting to move toward those promises, not putting up more hurdles for himself. Kind of makes me think he's full of $hit.

Again- all that matters is what Trump supporters feel. Here is one more example of many- Dem voter (mostly) - Bernie bro who was pissed like so many and voted Trump and thinks he is doing a great job. If they left wants to get back in power they have to convince these people.


Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4716 on: August 16, 2018, 02:31:58 PM »
Quote
Ask Trump supporters if you dare. They will say you are wrong.
I dare ..... I dare.

Once again .... 18 months in.  I ask you ... mostly Lurking ..... give me a list of the GOOD THINGS that Trump has done.  A couple days ago I gave you a list of many of the things he has done in 18 months THAT WERE BAD. And it only took him 18 months.

Surely you can come up with even a SHORT LIST of the good things he has done?  I look forward to seeing your list.

I'll even give you some help:

1) If you think it is a good thing that Trump signed the tax bill that gave 85% of the benefits from the tax cut to the WEALTHIEST 1% .....  then you should list that.

2)  If you think it is a good thing that low and middle income people won't be able to get affordable healthcare because Trump has stripped out some of the ACA provisions .... then you should list that.

3)  If you think that it is a good thing that Trump is also trying to reinstate the provision that allows health insurance companies to deny coverage or charge outrageous premiums for PRE-EXISTING CONDITIONS...... you should list that.

4)  If you think it is a good thing that Trump still hasn't been able to get Mexico to "pay for the wall" ..... then you should list that.

5)  If you think that it is a good thing that Trump ripped up the nuclear agreement with Iran and caused the price of gasoline to go up .... you should list that.

6)  If you think it is a good thing for a president to talk like a junior high aged bully with a 6th grade education ..... you should list that.

7)  If you think it is good that Trump HAS ONLY GIVEN ONE PRESS CONFERENCE SINCE HIS ELECTION ...... AND THAT WAS OVER A YEAR AGO TO LESTER HOLT ..... then list that.

8)  If you think it is good that Trump passed classified information to the Russians IN THE OVAL OFFICE that likely led to the death of an Israeli spy ..... then you should list that.

9)  If you think it is good that Trump trashes the CIA, FBI, and NSA in public, then you should list that.

10)  If you think it is a good thing that Trump lies about economic figures when he speaks .... then you should list that.

11)  If you think it is a good thing that the US is falling further and further behind the Asians and others in solar production/research and battery production/research .... then you should list that.

12)  If you think it is a good thing that Trump still thinks that global warming is a "Chinese hoax" .... then you should list that.

So ..... I've given you a few ideas.  I look forward to seeing your list of good things that Trump has accomplished during his first 18 months. 

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Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4717 on: August 16, 2018, 02:45:39 PM »
Quote
"When it is determined that access to classified information is no longer required, the department or agency shall terminate such access and debrief the individual........"
  James Clapper

There are a couple of issues with the above you just may have "glossed over". ;)

1)  The CIA had ABSOLUTELY NO KNOWLEDGE that Trump had pulled his security clearance.

2)
  There was NO DEBRIEFING of the individual.  In fact, there was no process that the CIA was involved in.  It was a "Donnie thing".

3)  There has never been a situation where an intelligence director in the previous administration has had their security clearance pulled, because many times the CURRENT FBI/CIA/NSA director will converse with the prior director regarding issues that the new director has come across.  If the prior FBI/CIA/etc director doesn' have clearance any more ..... there are certain things that he can then talk about with the CURRENT DIRECTOR.

The funny thing ..... is that it has NO EFFECT on John Brennan and what he can and can't talk about.  With or without his security clearance, he will never talk about things he knows that are classified.

The only reason Traitor Don pulled Brennon's security clearance is that he didn't want him talking badly about him.  #THINSKIN

The interesting thing ..... is that Donnie's move now will create MORE INCENTIVE for people to speak out..... because in a democracy, when people are trying to shut people up ..... they are trying to hide something.

#TRUTH NEVER GOES AWAY 
 
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mostly_lurking

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4718 on: August 16, 2018, 03:09:57 PM »
Quote
Ask Trump supporters if you dare. They will say you are wrong.
I dare ..... I dare.



Seems you are having a discussion with yourself. :)

You need to talk the general Trump supporter populace- Not me.
Dare to go into Trump areas in other forums,reddit, youtube ,facebook and just ask.


SteveMDFP

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4719 on: August 16, 2018, 03:39:07 PM »

Again- all that matters is what Trump supporters feel. Here is one more example of many- Dem voter (mostly) - Bernie bro who was pissed like so many and voted Trump and thinks he is doing a great job. If they left wants to get back in power they have to convince these people.

How is this "all that matters"?  Of course Trump supporters like Trump.  That's a tautology.  Tautologies aren't worth space in a discussion forum.

The larger picture is that Trump has followed through on *some* promises, the destructive ones.  For promises of helpful things (a universal health care plan, more progressive tax structure, environmental protections) he has been moving strongly in the *opposite* direction.

His entire Presidency is a fustercluck, on innumerable levels.

Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4720 on: August 16, 2018, 04:02:31 PM »
Quote
You need to talk the general Trump supporter populace- Not me.
[/b]

You're the one making the claims.  I'm just asking the questions ...... which you can't seem to answer.  Not sure why that is.  But on a discussion forum like this, you probably should either have something to backup what you are saying ..... or go to some other forum where all they do is talk about things that they can't back up.

Just sayin..... ;)

As an Independent voter ..... it's easy for me, because all I look for is the truth.  So once again, I'll get you started:

1)  Under Trump's admin, the unemployment rate is down to 3.9% from 4.5% when he took office.  See .... that's a "good thing".  So Trump's unemployment rate of 3.9% is good. 

During the first year of Obama's tenure, the rate during the recession was at 10% and he got it down to 4.5% by the time he handed off to Trump.    Now .... a Democrat might say, "but Obama lowered the rate from the peak of the recession of 10% down to 4.5% which is MORE than a 50% decrease in the unemployment rate."  Which is also true.  Obama got handed a pile of shit when he entered office.  That is just the truth .... whether you are a Republican or a Democrat.

2) Under Trump's admin, the US has added 3.4 million jobs during his first 18 months.  THAT IS A GOOD THING.  Of course, the Democrats will rightly note Obama added 3.7 million jobs during his last 18 months in office ..... so job growth has slowed down slightly.

You see how things work on this forum?  Now .... I don't PRETEND to speak for everyone on the forum .... I certainly have some disagreements with others.  But I use FACTS to back up the reasons why I disagree with them.  People CAN AND WILL DISAGREE ON POLICY ... BUT FACTS ARE FACTS.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2018/07/27/trumps-economic-scorecard-18-months-into-his-presidency/#50a170b81283

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/10/business/economy/trump-economy-credit.html
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 04:14:03 PM by Buddy »
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mostly_lurking

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4721 on: August 16, 2018, 04:21:23 PM »
Quote
You need to talk the general Trump supporter populace- Not me.
[/b]

You're the one making the claims.  I'm just asking the questions ...... which you can't seem to answer.  Not sure why that is.  But on a discussion forum like this, you probably should either have something to backup what you are saying ..... or go to some other forum where all they do is talk about things that they can't back up.

Just sayin..... ;)

As an Independent voter ..... it's easy for me, because all I look for is the truth.  So once again, I'll get you started:


I am not a Trump voter.

Maybe we have got sidetracked on what the original point was (also because I am having multiple discussion on similar subjects. My original point was : Most Trump voters have no voting regrets and are happy with Trumps job TILL NOW (besides the wall and Hillary...)- These Trump voters will do so AGAIN unless the left figures out why they are happy and think HE IS fulfilling his campaign promises.

I can also put plenty of links that support Trumps job performance and Economy- there are 2 sides to most things. All depends what way that publication leans. As far as government numbers- no matter what administration- most are fudged to say it lightly.




Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4722 on: August 16, 2018, 04:32:33 PM »
Quote
I am not a Trump voter.
[/size]

Then what are you?


1)  Do you think Trump is doing a good job?  If so .... back it up with facts.

2) Are you someone from outside the US just trolling?  Just tell me .... and I'll ignore you.

3) Are you a messenger from "Trump's voters" (even though you are NOT a Trump voter, in your words)?  If so .... see #2 above.

4)
Are you a psychology major and you are just pontificating on what you "think Trump voters think."  Great .... just tell us that.

In return .... I'll tell you "what I am".  I am an Independent who thinks we currently have a HORRIBLE president and I have listed those things out for you before ... specifically.

In return ..... you can tell me if you think Trump is either good, bad, or horrible .... and tell me why....WITH SPECIFICS.


FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4723 on: August 16, 2018, 04:40:01 PM »
The fact that the GOP leadership enables Trump's attacks on the free press demonstrates how morally bankrupt the grand old party has become:

Title: "Hundreds Of Newspapers Denounce Trump's Attacks On Media In Coordinated Editorials"

https://www.npr.org/2018/08/16/639125774/hundreds-of-newspapers-denounce-trumps-attacks-on-media-in-coordinated-editorial

Extract: " More than 300 news publications across the country are joining together to defend the role of a free press and denounce President Trump's ongoing attacks on the news media in coordinated editorials publishing Thursday, according to a tally by The Boston Globe.

The project was spearheaded by staff members of the editorial page at the Globe, who write: "This relentless assault on the free press has dangerous consequences. We asked editorial boards from around the country – liberal and conservative, large and small — to join us today to address this fundamental threat in their own words."


Some reporters say they're receiving heightened security measures when covering Trump rallies, according to Politico, though many news outlets don't comment publicly about such matters.

Thirty-one journalists in the U.S. have been attacked so far in 2018, according to the U.S. Press Freedom Tracker. In June, five employees were killed in the Capital Gazette newsroom in Annapolis, Md. A man with a longstanding grudge has been charged with multiple counts of murder."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4724 on: August 16, 2018, 05:10:48 PM »
Chicago-area manufacturer to lay off 150 people as it moves operations to Mexico, in part to avoid tariffs on Chinese metal


Quote
A manufacturer of storage safes is closing its two Chicago-area factories and moving operations to Mexico, in part because of the Trump administration's tariffs on metal from China.

Stack-On Products plans to lay off 128 people at its facility in Wauconda, Ill., and 25 people at its McHenry, Ill., plant when it closes both facilities Oct. 12, said Al Fletcher, human resources director for Alpha Guardian, the Las Vegas-based parent company.

"The operation is really not profitable," Fletcher said. He said the decision to relocate operations to Juarez, Mexico, was made about two months ago when President Donald Trump announced tariffs on numerous goods and materials from China as well as other countries, to reduce what the president has called an unfair trade deficit.

"Mr. Trump is part of this," Fletcher said. So far, the United States has imposed tariffs on $34 billion of Chinese technology goods and $3 billion of Chinese steel and aluminum, and has proposed another $16 billion.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/chicago-area-manufacturer-to-lay-off-150-people-as-it-moves-operations-to-mexico-in-part-to-avoid-tariffs-on-chinese-metal/ar-BBLWowg?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=iehp

#MAGET  Make America Go Elsewhere Tomorrow
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AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4725 on: August 16, 2018, 05:15:00 PM »
If the Congressional GOP leadership had any spine they would censure Trump for making such statements:

Title: "Trump attacks Russia provisions in signed defense bill"

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/401913-trump-attacks-russia-provisions-in-signed-defense-bill

Extract: "President Trump said in a signing statement that he reserves the right to ignore a recently signed defense authorization law’s ban on recognizing Russian sovereignty of Crimea."

Edit, see:

Title: "Censure in the United States"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censure_in_the_United_States
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 05:36:17 PM by AbruptSLR »
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AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4726 on: August 16, 2018, 05:33:34 PM »
I think that it is a mistake to assume that Mattis (or Kelly) will serve as a check on Trump's extreme behavior.  Instead, it is likely more the case that Mattis (& Kelly) is enabling Trump's bad behavior around the world:

Title: "Pentagon punishes reporters over tough coverage"

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/08/16/pentagon-press-reporters-tough-coverage-779276

Extract: "Coupled with eroding access to top Defense Department officials, Pentagon reporters say it's becoming increasingly difficult to provide critical information to Americans."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

mostly_lurking

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4727 on: August 16, 2018, 05:50:00 PM »
Quote
I am not a Trump voter.
[/size]

Then what are you?


Ok, look , seriously I came to this forum for the climate and ice knowledge- "mostly lurking" because my knowledge on the subject is limited. Then I see there is a mostly completely left echo chamber against Trump like most everywhere else and I just had to jump in. Maybe I shouldn't have- it seems to be making people upset including myself and my rants.

To your questions:

2) I do not reside in the US but have in the past.I have family in the US.  I am not trolling. My knowledge and involvement on this subject is much higher than probably half (or more) of US citizens- this is not a complement to me but a non-complement to US citizens. Does my non-residency disqualify me from discussing this subject? If you believe so ignore away and no need to read the rest of this comment.

3) I am nobody's messenger. I have been observing and interacting with many people from before the presidential primaries. As I have said before in this forum- I was a keen Bernie supporter and did what I could to help him from where I am (legally- and I'm not a Russian bot).
I had almost no interaction with Trump supporters at this time- just Bernie and Hillary ones. After the Dem primary fiasco was over I turned into a #neverhillary and still had little contact with Trump supporters until close to the elections. After he won I got more involved with them and since then I have a perspective many "standard" left wingers don't. Most are not willing to interact with "trumptards" or choose any other derogatory name you wish. Mostly they just down-vote, curse,block,ignore...you get the gist of it.

4) Sadly , no. No psychology major.But again I see myself as an observer of humanity and sometimes that is just as good as a title.


1) This is what you really want. As a previously #neverhillary Trump would have to be the devil himself for me to think that he is worse than Hillary would have been.Yes, he is doing a reasonable job and not only on the levels you are talking about (numbers).

I am a big fan of term limits on most every political job- I think the longer people (any) stay in a job the more corruptible and entrenched they become. Same goes for administrations- and another Dem administration under Hillary would have probably hidden for good many of the faults and corruption at so many levels of the last 8 years (and some from the bush years)-we are seeing and will see so much more-this had become almost a personal vendetta for Trump due to the war that has been declared on him.

Yes, I think his foreign policy is good. Unconventional to say the least . We will be able to judge that only in the future. I don't think US policy has been that great for the last 30 years and sometimes just destructive to the world - it was time to try something different. Trump is it.

Yes, I think his ideas on immigration are good. He is trying to solve a multi-decade problem that every god-damn administration kicked down the road.What was more easily solvable in the past is now a very big problem.He has the guts to try and solve it. It was time to try something different. Trump is it.

On the economy and the numbers- that is a harder one. My ideas on the global economy are quite extreme and are pretty negative and I don't think the US will escape the wrath when it comes. Saying that I'm pretty sure Trump knows this as well and best he can do is try to soften the blow when it comes.This is not something he can tell the public. If you want to talk about future world economy.. it can be done in a different thread. If currently people feel better about the economy (and most polls say so) than they will vote for Trump again.

On climate and environment. This is a touchy subject on this forum. On climate I don't think he has too much effect- I could be wrong. The Paris agreement was a farce basically.Most "players" didn't do their part. I am all for non pollution action and maybe in this Trump can be given a bad score - I haven't gone too deep into it.

No, I don't think he is a Nazi Hitler ( that supports Israel!?), he isn't anti LGBT and what ever other letters it's politically correct to add. He isn't racist . All of that is just anti-Trump media hype. The guy was courted be EVERYONE right up to he day declared he is running- he was basically pushed into it by the media for 30 years. He wasn't ever really a republican- he supported a'most any politician from any side.He is EXACTLY the same person as he was all those years when they loved him. Give me a break- this was all because he went against Hillary.
Now toady he has to take a conservative stance because that's his base but he will not do anything extreme- that is all -once again- media fear mongering.

To summarize:  I see much more good than bad and it is enough for me to support him at this time. Now the haters will hate and that's fine but I don't think there ever has been such a coordinated attack on a president from every side possible - and that just makes more people support him.


/end rant- and hopefully the last one.





AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4728 on: August 16, 2018, 06:15:33 PM »
As impeachment is a political, rather than a legal, process; under Trump/McConnell/Ryan leadership the GOP is not hesitating to abuse this process in order to stack the judiciary in their favor:

Title: "Why Republicans Just Impeached the Entire West Virginia Supreme Court"

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/08/west-virginia-supreme-court-why-republicans-just-impeached-all-four-sitting-justices.html

Extract: "On Monday, the House of Delegates impeached the entire state Supreme Court on charges focusing on the justices’ lavish spending on office refurbishments. Republicans, who led the drive to oust the whole bench, insisted the court was irredeemably corrupt. Many Democrats countered that GOP legislators were staging a coup to seize control of the judiciary."
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mostly_lurking

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4729 on: August 16, 2018, 06:16:22 PM »


Here's a hint, imagine if the dems obtained a majority in the house and senate - do you really believe they would be able to pass a Bill for Single Payer Universal Health Insurance which would cover all US citizens and still allow those who wanted it to keep private health insurance and attend their private doctors and hospitals? I don't think they could or would if they could.

Still under the rant-mode but will make it short. I support that exact kind of health system- where I live that is exactly what we have. Bottom line though- I don't believe it will ever happen- not in any near future no matter what combination of potus/congress . Hope I'm wrong. Its just a bit less harder than total gun control   ;)

AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4730 on: August 16, 2018, 06:22:50 PM »
Here is more evidence that under Trump/McConnell leadership the GOP is abusing its current/opportunistic power in order to stack the U.S. judiciary system in their favor:

Title: "Trump, McConnell reshaping the country’s judiciary"

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/08/14/trump-mcconnell-reshaping-the-countrys-judiciary/

Extract: "As the Senate moves toward confirming Supreme Court nominee Brett Kavanaugh, President Donald Trump and Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell are leading a lower-key yet deeply consequential charge to remake the entire federal judiciary.

McConnell, who titled his memoir “The Long Game,” frequently reminds his allies that the Senate is in the personnel business. He’s had a rocky relationship with Trump since his election, but the confirmed judges have given them a common goal."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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mostly_lurking

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4731 on: August 16, 2018, 06:23:29 PM »
As impeachment is a political, rather than a legal, process; under Trump/McConnell/Ryan leadership the GOP is not hesitating to abuse this process in order to stack the judiciary in their favor:

Title: "Why Republicans Just Impeached the Entire West Virginia Supreme Court"

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/08/west-virginia-supreme-court-why-republicans-just-impeached-all-four-sitting-justices.html

Extract: "On Monday, the House of Delegates impeached the entire state Supreme Court on charges focusing on the justices’ lavish spending on office refurbishments. Republicans, who led the drive to oust the whole bench, insisted the court was irredeemably corrupt. Many Democrats countered that GOP legislators were staging a coup to seize control of the judiciary."

You forgot this part:

"the court isn’t wholly blameless either. Republicans are attempting to stack it—but the justices made that task easy by engaging in conduct ranging from questionable to certainly illegal. "

AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4732 on: August 16, 2018, 06:39:27 PM »
A low quality army only facilitates Trump's ability to abuse his role as the military chief, particularly in regards to starting a war with Iran without cause:

Title: "Is the Army turning into Animal House?"

https://www.salon.com/2018/08/15/is-the-army-turning-into-animal-house/

Extract: "According to a February 2018 Politico story, “The Army anticipates problems meeting its 2018 goal to enlist 80,000 qualified volunteers, even with increased bonuses and incentives. Nearly three-quarters of Americans age 17 to 24 are ineligible for the military due to obesity, other health problems, criminal backgrounds or lack of education, according to government data.”

The commanding general of the Army’s Recruiting Command told the Army Times in 2015 that “The obesity issue is the most troubling because the trend is going in the wrong direction. We think by 2020 it could be as high as 50 percent, which means only two in 10 would qualify to join the Army.”

So what is the Pentagon going to do? They’re going to reduce recruiting standards and throw money at the problem."
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AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4733 on: August 16, 2018, 06:41:54 PM »
"the court isn’t wholly blameless either. Republicans are attempting to stack it—but the justices made that task easy by engaging in conduct ranging from questionable to certainly illegal. "

You forgot to cite the next sentence:

"Republicans are citing the serious allegations against two justices to justify removing all four, and they have timed their attacks to ensure that Republican Gov. Jim Justice, rather than West Virginia voters, will be able to select their replacements, thereby dragging the court far to the right."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4734 on: August 16, 2018, 07:50:02 PM »
Trump's attacks on the free press constitutes an attack on democracy itself:

Title: "Senate takes shot at Trump, passes resolution affirming 'press is not the enemy of the people'"

http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/402158-senate-takes-shot-at-trump-passes-resolution-affirming-press-is-not-the-enemy

Extract: "The Senate took a rhetorical shot on Thursday at President Trump's attacks on the media, passing a resolution affirming that the press is "not the enemy of the people."
The non-binding resolution, which cleared the chamber by unanimous consent, also touts the "indispensable role of the free press" and says an attack on the media meant to "systematically undermine the credibility of the press as a whole [is] an attack on our democratic institutions.""
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4735 on: August 16, 2018, 09:37:50 PM »
As Trump won many votes by peddling drivel, and as we head for the midterms, it seems fair that Omarosa should give him a taste of his own medicine:

Title: "Omarosa Claims Melania Trump Can't Wait to Divorce the President: She's 'Counting Every Minute'"

https://people.com/politics/omarosa-book-melania-trump-wants-divorce-donald-trump/

Extract: "Former White House aide Omarosa Manigault Newman‘s new book has dominated headlines for days, and it has as much dirt on President Donald Trump’s personal relationships as it does his administration. In Unhinged: An Insider’s Account of the Trump White House, which came out Tuesday, Manigault Newman writes that Trump’s relationship with wife Melania is so strained that, “in [her] opinion,” the first lady is “counting every minute until he is out of office and she can divorce him.”"

&

Title: "POLITICO Playbook PM: Omarosa releases new Lara Trump tape"

https://www.politico.com/newsletters/playbook-pm/2018/08/16/omarosa-releases-new-lara-trump-tape-298983

« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 10:31:36 PM by AbruptSLR »
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AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4736 on: August 16, 2018, 10:32:33 PM »
Many people believe that it is unethical for psychiatrists to give their professional opinion regarding the mental condition of someone they have not directly examined.  Nevertheless, Dr John Gartner explains that prior to 1980 psychological diagnoses were largely in the hands of the Freudians; then in 1980 the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual III (currently in its fifth edition) became the standard for diagnosis, and these diagnoses can be performed without personal interviews, can be done, in effect, from afar.  Furthermore, per the linked article about the book "Rocket Man: Nuclear Madness and the Mind of Donald Trump", Gartner makes the case that Donald Trump is a psychopath:

Title: "Perfect Timing: "Rocket Man: Nuclear Madness and the Mind of Donald Trump" just published"

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/6/11/1770809/-Perfect-Timing-Rocket-Man-Nuclear-Madness-and-the-Mind-of-Donald-Trump-just-published
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 10:39:34 PM by AbruptSLR »
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AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4737 on: August 16, 2018, 10:40:22 PM »
Extraordinary circumstances require extraordinary action:

Title: "Admiral who helped take out Bin Laden dares Trump to revoke his clearance"

https://www.axios.com/john-brennan-security-clearance-trump-admiral-514f820e-2431-4c33-8eb7-525db393c858.html

Extract: "Retired Navy Admiral William H. McRaven, who led the Navy SEAL raid that killed Al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden, wrote a letter to President Trump in the Washington Post Thursday daring him to revoke his security clearance like he did to former CIA director John Brennan Wednesday."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4738 on: August 16, 2018, 10:52:36 PM »
Like Navy admiral McRaven above ..... you will see more and more backlash from Trump’s attempt to silence people from speaking out against him.  Trump will continue to make mistakes because he is running out of room as the walls close in.  He WILL continue to strike out against “the world”.
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4739 on: August 16, 2018, 11:03:13 PM »

..snip

 People may not like what Trump admin has done but he has been keeping his election campaign promises more than I think any prior president has in modern time. And those who voted for him totally agree he has.

Check out how the Trump WH put it here https://www.promiseskept.com/

,

God damn you  :D     I'm about to answer and see you have done so in a perfect manner and leave me jobless  8)

What can I say. It's what I do!  ;D

so do i understand this correctly, it does not matter what the promise is as long as it's kept. i mean it's much easier to keep the promise to steal, to lie and/or to kill than to keep the  promise to provide funds to get rid of cole, nuclear power and fossil fuels.

so much about short sightedness ;)

further the main reason for short term activism are voters and shareholders not managers and politicians. it's the voters who are responsible if a mentally ill moron is their "führer" and it's shareholder's greed joint with managers profiling neurosis that keeps those narrow minded decisions coming.

what does that mean? it means that people mostly get what they deserve and not all others but themselves are to blame.

all this topics fill entire libraries with little to none solutions and the day someone comes up with a move into the right direction he / she has to be happy if he/she survives the attempt.

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4740 on: August 17, 2018, 12:04:13 AM »
The Legislature of the State of New York should protect Omarosa's right to free speech:

Title: "New York Should Pass a Law to Protect Omarosa"

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/08/new-york-should-pass-a-law-to-protect-omarosa.html
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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4741 on: August 17, 2018, 01:51:03 AM »
The Legislature of the State of New York should protect Omarosa's Assange's right to free speech:

Julian has never signed away his rights to publish what he has learned. Free speech is a universal right, until such time as you sell your's to the highest bidder.
Terry

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4742 on: August 17, 2018, 03:50:06 AM »
The Legislature of the State of New York should protect Omarosa's Assange's right to free speech:

Julian has never signed away his rights to publish what he has learned. Free speech is a universal right, until such time as you sell your's to the highest bidder.
Terry

In liberal democracies criminal activity is not a universal right.  Under authoritarian rule free speech is not a universal right.
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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4743 on: August 17, 2018, 04:07:04 AM »

In liberal democracies criminal activity is not a universal right.  Under authoritarian rule free speech is not a universal right.



Which system do you consider the Excited States to be ruled by?
Is this the same system that has been in place since the conclusion of WWII?
Do you believe that American publishers who print truthful information about other countries should be subject to extradition by those countries?
Do you believe America to be an exception. That international laws and norms should not be applied?


Terry

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4744 on: August 17, 2018, 04:35:33 AM »
Since we are talking about how Julian allegedly helped a Russian autocrat to install an alleged malevolent narcissist into the U.S. Presidency, I believe that:

1. Trump is trying as hard as he can to make the U.S. an autocracy.
2. Trump is pushing the U.S. further to the right than for any time since WWII.
3. I believe that without the rule of law no one anywhere would be free.
4. The U.S. has an extradition treaty with the U.K. and the U.K. can decide whether to honor Mueller's request once the Ecuadorians have displaced Julian from his current sanctuary.
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4745 on: August 17, 2018, 07:08:38 AM »
"The U.S. has an extradition treaty with the U.K. and the U.K. can decide whether to honor Mueller's request ..."

Wait, what ?

1)  I am aware of rape charges in Sweden and evasion of bail in the UK as charges against Assange.
2) There is supposedly a sealed grand jury indictment in the USA against Assange but prior to Mueller
3) Assange has reportedly been asked to testify to US senate.

Is there now an assertion that Assange is facing criminal charges from Mueller for interference in the 2016 US election ? I have seen no evidence for that yet.

sidd




« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 07:28:17 AM by sidd »

TerryM

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4746 on: August 17, 2018, 07:52:16 AM »
Centuries after Putin, Trump, and Hillary have been forgotten, plays will still be written depicting Assange's selfless struggles. A timeless epic unfolds as honor and truth fight against overweening evil. Even now we wait breathlessly for the final acts to unfold.
Terry

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4747 on: August 17, 2018, 08:05:07 AM »
"The U.S. has an extradition treaty with the U.K. and the U.K. can decide whether to honor Mueller's request ..."

Wait, what ?

1)  I am aware of rape charges in Sweden and evasion of bail in the UK as charges against Assange.
2) There is supposedly a sealed grand jury indictment in the USA against Assange but prior to Mueller
3) Assange has reportedly been asked to testify to US senate.

Is there now an assertion that Assange is facing criminal charges from Mueller for interference in the 2016 US election ? I have seen no evidence for that yet.

sidd

Is there a sealed indictment against Assange?  One reports says there isn't:

"A U.S. Department of Justice investigation into WikiLeaks is continuing but a U.S. law official close to the investigation told Reuters there was no sealed indictment against Assange."

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-ecuador-assange/stalemate-over-wikileaks-assanges-future-coming-to-a-head-source-idUSKBN1KD1US

I don't know that a *witness* can be extradited, maybe.  He's certainly an important witness, but I would hope his status as a journalist would preclude prosecution for publishing leaks.  Case law on protections for journalists publishing classified leaks seems to be murky:

Q: Could U.S. Prosecute Reporters For Classified Scoops? A: Maybe
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/03/22/521009791/q-could-u-s-prosecute-reporters-for-classified-scoops-a-maybe

Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4748 on: August 17, 2018, 02:15:22 PM »
It's always interesting to see how a person is continually "revealed".  In the case of Trump, his total lack of ethics are revealed every day.  And those who support him, also reveal their lack of ethics.  The things (policies in this case) that Trump supports, the utter lack of respect for others, the continual lack of truth ..... all those things "reveal" a person for who they are.  And those that SUPPORT that person, are also revealed as well.  It's interesting to watch.

And just as Trump continues to reveal himself for the shameless pile of garbage he is, there are those that "step up to the plate" to speak out against the abuse of power that Trump is now trying to wield ..... people like retired Admiral William McRaven ..... who stepped out onto a limb by himself by openly rebuking Trump and his policies.

Revoke my security clearance, too, Mr. President

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/revoke-my-security-clearance-too-mr-president/2018/08/16/8b149b02-a178-11e8-93e3-24d1703d2a7a_story.html?utm_term=.a24349a1d911
Quote
A good leader tries to embody the best qualities of his or her organization. A good leader sets the example for others to follow. A good leader always puts the welfare of others before himself or herself.

Your leadership, however, has shown little of these qualities. Through your actions, you have embarrassed us in the eyes of our children, humiliated us on the world stage and, worst of all, divided us as a nation.

If you think for a moment that your McCarthy-era tactics will suppress the voices of criticism, you are sadly mistaken. The criticism will continue until you become the leader we prayed you would be.

Trump condemned by 12 former CIA chiefs over revocation of John Brennan's security clearance

Quote
Twelve former CIA chiefs have denounced Donald Trump's decision to revoke John Brennan's national security clearance, condemning the move as "an attempt to stifle free speech".
 
The US president on Wednesday removed the ability for Mr Brennan – himself a former CIA director – to access sensitive government information, citing the Russia investigation as the reason behind the move.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/john-brennan-trump-cia-director-security-clearance-revoke-us-president-joint-statement-in-full-a8495556.html
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Pmt111500

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #4749 on: August 17, 2018, 02:41:55 PM »
Apparently President of Trumpistan has signed some documents he didn't read, so he's now locked out of the Imperial Palace he doesn't use as residence: https://politics.theonion.com/trump-locked-out-of-white-house-after-accidentally-revo-1828394207?utm_content=Main&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_campaign=SF&utm_source=Facebook
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