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mostly_lurking

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #5300 on: November 12, 2018, 07:50:36 AM »
...snip   

Maxine Waters will likely the new Chair of the House Financial Services Committee; which will give her subpoena power to expose any possible illicit links between Deutsche Bank and Team Trump:


God help us all. I don't think even the Dems' would want her in that job.

Rob Dekker

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #5301 on: November 12, 2018, 09:12:06 AM »
...snip   

Maxine Waters will likely the new Chair of the House Financial Services Committee; which will give her subpoena power to expose any possible illicit links between Deutsche Bank and Team Trump:


God help us all. I don't think even the Dems' would want her in that job.

Getting a little nervous there for your Republican friends ?

Waters will do a great job restoring some honesty and financial accountability in Washington.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2018, 09:19:09 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #5302 on: November 12, 2018, 09:23:13 AM »
Here is a picture of the heads of state remembering 10 million dead soldiers in WWI :



Can you spot the one who just doesn't get it ?

And the one who doesn't care ?
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Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #5303 on: November 12, 2018, 10:07:27 AM »
Unethical people ..... HATE ethics. 
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

mostly_lurking

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #5304 on: November 12, 2018, 10:12:24 AM »
Can you spot the one who just doesn't get it ?

And the one who doesn't care ?

Give it a rest. That kind of stuff is what makes nevertrumpers looks stupid- no better than the Fish thing in Japan. Thought people here are smarter than that.

Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #5305 on: November 12, 2018, 10:25:27 AM »
Rob .... you are SOOOO right.  The unsettling thing is .... Donnie doesn’t have those type of feelings. He has NO empathy.  He has NO remorse for others.  His life is all about Donnie 24 x 7 x 365.  And that is why he finds it so easy to discard people when they no longer serve HIS purpose.  Whether it is a wife or a worker or a friend .... it doesn’t matter.

He is one SICK sociopath .... who will continue to unwind.

And not only is HE sick .... think about someone who supports someone like that. 

« Last Edit: November 12, 2018, 10:46:48 AM by Buddy »
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Neven

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #5306 on: November 12, 2018, 11:56:40 AM »
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

mostly_lurking

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #5307 on: November 12, 2018, 12:03:39 PM »
Don't worry, Hillary will run.

litesong

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #5308 on: November 12, 2018, 01:28:54 PM »
....he finds it so easy to discard people....
The continuous opposition of "don'T rump" to  election processes, shows any negative vote by American people in 2020 against him, will be discarded. If re-pubic-lick-uns join him in opposition to results of 2020, "don'T rump" will have his Brown Shirts.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 02:12:40 AM by litesong »

AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #5309 on: November 12, 2018, 04:34:13 PM »
Trump is now rolling out his campaign to target America's democratic electoral process:

Title: "Trump's new target: the electoral process"

https://www.axios.com/trump-target-midterm-elections-voting-florida-arizona-78cdc315-bc6e-4663-95a7-a9caed33f1c1.html

Extract: "After working to undermine the legitimacy of the press and the Mueller investigation, President Trump is now targeting the electoral process as insurance against possible Republican losses in too-close-to-call races in Florida and Arizona.

Why it matters: The president is doing more than any top official in memory to cast doubt on the outcomes of elections.

&

Title: " President Trump cites conspiracy theory to demand Florida stop recount with Republicans ahead"

https://www.vox.com/2018/11/12/18087224/trump-conspiracy-theory-florida-recount

Extract: " There is in fact no evidence of fraud.

President Trump demanded on Monday morning that Florida halt its ongoing, legally required statewide recounts while the Republican candidates are still ahead, claiming, without evidence, that “many ballots are missing or forged” and the ballots are “massively infected.”
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #5310 on: November 12, 2018, 05:50:33 PM »
As the market continues to sell off in coming months .... my guess is Donnie will no longer be “taking credit” for the stock market.  And since the Republicans had “almost a perfect day” ... it can’t be the Democrat’s fault.

You KNOW that somehow he will get around to blaming Obama.  You KNOW it is coming ... 😉
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AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #5311 on: November 12, 2018, 05:56:08 PM »
The linked article provides some evidence that Trump is pushing the USA towards authoritarian rule and away from the democratic rule of law:

Title: "Midterm fury fuels Trump's assault on constitutional norms"

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/12/politics/trump-midterms-reaction-constitution/index.html

Extract: "In the days since the fracturing of the Republican majority on power in Washington, Trump has challenged political order across a broad front.

The President has installed Matthew Whitaker, an acolyte who shares his skepticism of the Mueller probe as acting attorney general. In addition, he has stoked conspiracy theories about stolen elections in the wake of Florida's latest vote counting controversy and has threatened to use the mechanisms of government to investigate Democrats if they investigate him.

And he has stepped up his assault on the press, including by confiscating the White House pass of CNN chief White House correspondent Jim Acosta, who asked multiple, challenging questions of Trump during a White House news conference.

All of this came days after Trump used his power as commander-in-chief to dispatch troops to the border to meet what he said was an imminent criminal invasion from a migrant caravan that is yet to materialize.

The President's moves, with the prospect of more to come, have precipitated a surreal moment in politics, with Washington veterans debating whether a constitutional crisis is looming — or whether it is already here."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #5312 on: November 12, 2018, 07:27:46 PM »
Donnie’s weekly Gallup poll numbers are “heading south” again.  His approval number is 38% (3% above his worst number of 35%) .... and his disapproval number is 56% (4% below his historical worst of 60%).

Donnie's numbers will grow worse over time.  The process continues ...
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

magnamentis

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #5313 on: November 12, 2018, 07:31:39 PM »
the man donald reminds me of a kamikaze fighter pilot who is just running on his agenda without looking left and right and ignoring any fire until he hits target and dies in the process or until he get's shot down.

perhaps and that would make it even worse, the donald is the only kamikaze who is not aware that his journey is one without return, a one way ticket to disaster, dishonor, a man serving as a warning for future generations, death or all of those.

Neven

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #5314 on: November 12, 2018, 09:25:51 PM »
I've opened a special thread for anything that isn't related to the policies of the Trump administration, here. Any links to his tweets, his outrageous behaviour, his hair, how he's polling, and so on and so forth, can go there.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #5315 on: November 13, 2018, 08:01:57 AM »
I've opened a special thread for anything that isn't related to the policies of the Trump administration, here. Any links to his tweets, his outrageous behaviour, his hair, how he's polling, and so on and so forth, can go there.

Since Dore is only pissing on Democrats and MSM, and has nothing to say about Trump's policies, that means all of Dore's videos should also go into that thread, right, Neven ?  :)
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Neven

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5316 on: November 13, 2018, 08:48:07 AM »
Since Dore is only pissing on Democrats and MSM, and has nothing to say about Trump's policies, that means all of Dore's videos should also go into that thread, right, Neven ?  :)

He's criticizing the political theatre/wrestling, not promoting it.

I'm simply done with all the stuff that promotes Trump Derangement Syndrome and mainstream media ratings. I prefer to see real Resistance that is based on policy instead of personality. Trump can be taken down, but not through the stuff that gets the most attention. Let's not waste our time.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 09:01:04 AM by Neven »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5317 on: November 13, 2018, 09:08:21 AM »
Since Dore is only pissing on Democrats and MSM, and has nothing to say about Trump's policies, that means all of Dore's videos should also go into that thread, right, Neven ?  :)

He's criticizing the political theatre/wrestling, not promoting it.

That's not addressing the issue.
The issue is that you and your side-kick (Lurk) are promoting a guy who is pissing on Democrats and MSM, and then you tell us to all take a hike when we criticize Trump.

That's not right, Neven, and you know it.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5318 on: November 13, 2018, 09:13:19 AM »
Since Dore is only pissing on Democrats and MSM, and has nothing to say about Trump's policies, that means all of Dore's videos should also go into that thread, right, Neven ?  :)

RE : " and has nothing to say about Trump's policies "

That's not correct. People who watch his videos and read articles/comments know that Dore does address "Trump's policies"...

Does he ? Post ONE example of where Dore addresses Trump's policies.
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Neven

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5319 on: November 13, 2018, 10:01:31 AM »
That's not addressing the issue.
The issue is that you and your side-kick (Lurk) are promoting a guy who is pissing on Democrats and MSM, and then you tell us to all take a hike when we criticize Trump.

That's not right, Neven, and you know it.

That's not what I'm telling you. Stop twisting my words. You're gaslighting me.

This explains where Dore is coming from:

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Rob Dekker

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5320 on: November 13, 2018, 10:50:14 AM »
That's not addressing the issue.
The issue is that you and your side-kick (Lurk) are promoting a guy who is pissing on Democrats and MSM, and then you tell us to all take a hike when we criticize Trump.

That's not right, Neven, and you know it.

That's not what I'm telling you. Stop twisting my words. You're gaslighting me.

You are kidding, right ?
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Neven

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5321 on: November 13, 2018, 10:56:18 AM »
You are kidding, right ?

I've been as clear as I can be. We'll see how it goes.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5322 on: November 13, 2018, 10:59:56 AM »
This explains where Dore is coming from:

OK. From the video, this is where "Dore is coming from" :

"Trump is not the problem".
"He is a symptom of the problem".

Sorry, Neven, but that is not even talking about Trump's policies, let alone addressing them.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5323 on: November 13, 2018, 11:03:26 AM »
your side-kick (Lurk)

High praise indeed ... I have added that to my profile column.

Thanks Rob :)

You are welcome, Lurk.
Your status as Neven's side-kick is well-deserved.
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5324 on: November 13, 2018, 03:20:23 PM »
<snip, moved to a more fitting place, I don't know how long I will be copypasting; N.>
« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 10:51:10 PM by Neven »
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

litesong

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #5325 on: November 13, 2018, 06:03:24 PM »
<snip, moved to a more fitting place, I don't know how long I will be copypasting; N.>
« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 10:51:22 PM by Neven »

Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5326 on: November 13, 2018, 07:19:54 PM »
<snip, moved to a more fitting place, I don't know how long I will be copypasting; N.>
« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 10:51:40 PM by Neven »
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5327 on: November 13, 2018, 08:43:46 PM »
<snip, moved to a more fitting place, I don't know how long I will be copypasting; N.>
« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 10:52:04 PM by Neven »
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5328 on: November 14, 2018, 12:35:44 AM »
Neven:

Quick question regarding what type of things you want/accept that are posted to this category.  I assumed (mistakenly) that things regarding the “Trump presidency” ..... things like (1) Tariff policy of Trump admin (2) economic policy of Trump admin (3) viability of Trump admin going forward (4) popularity/unpopularity of Trump admin, (5) social effects of the Trump admin (like the just announced 17% increase in hate crimes this year over last year as just reported by the FBI), etc ..... would go in this thread.

So I’m asking for some brief guidance as to what you want in this thread. 

Thanks ....  Buddy
« Last Edit: November 14, 2018, 12:59:46 AM by Buddy »
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Neven

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5329 on: November 14, 2018, 09:31:02 AM »
Neven:

Quick question regarding what type of things you want/accept that are posted to this category.  I assumed (mistakenly) that things regarding the “Trump presidency” ..... things like (1) Tariff policy of Trump admin (2) economic policy of Trump admin (3) viability of Trump admin going forward (4) popularity/unpopularity of Trump admin, (5) social effects of the Trump admin (like the just announced 17% increase in hate crimes this year over last year as just reported by the FBI), etc ..... would go in this thread.

So I’m asking for some brief guidance as to what you want in this thread. 

Thanks ....  Buddy

If it's too much about Trump's personality, about people from the Trump administration, about indictments, about Donnie this and 'don'T rump' that, it goes to the other thread. Try to be cool-headed and rational, leave out the distractions.

It's best if it isn't just anti-Trump, but also connected to the alternative, to systemic changes, to a vision for the future. We need to get out of this vicious cycle.
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Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5330 on: November 14, 2018, 05:11:35 PM »
If you don’t mind, I would like to set up a thread that deals with “the impeachment process”.  We are now likely going to enter the phase of (1) more indictments of “higher ups” in the Trump admin/family (2) issues going to federal courts/appeals courts/Supreme Court, etc. (3) the process of more transparency by the House Of Representatives in calling people BACK for public scrutiny (4) the process of Trump’s popularity/unpopularity by the public (because that is what is going to drive the Congress), etc.

RussiaGate (as I refer to it) encompasses not JUST conspiracy with Russian sources in the election phase of Donald Trump ....  but also many illegal activities with other governments BOTH pre and post election.  The impeachment of Donald Trump will also be taking a close look at the finances of the Trump organization many years prior to the election, as well as activity during the transition months AND since his inauguration.

I think a thread focused on the impeachment process is warranted.  I believe we in the US are dealing with the largest, broadest, and deepest political scandal in US history, bar none.  And while I truly HATE politics (whether it is politics in a family, politics at work, or politics in government) I certainly hope everyone in the US should monitor, discuss, and get involved in something of such great importance.



FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5331 on: November 14, 2018, 05:49:20 PM »
Now on to Trump's economic policy .....

Gundlach: The U.S. economy seems to be on a 'suicide mission'

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/gundlach-u-s-economy-seems-suicide-mission-130715116.html

I have always mentioned Trump's misguided economic policies as being "Larry's and Trump's" .... when in reality I should have said "Larry's, Trump's, and Wilbur's." 

Trump's WORST economic mistake is what is discussed in this article and video clip.  The tax break for the wealthy and corporations at a time when corporations are reporting record gross profit levels AND when unemployment is very low AND the wealth discrepancy is very high ..... WAS THE WORST POLICY MISTAKE I HAVE EVER WITNESSED.  And I believe the "capital markets" (bond and stock markets) are going to punish the US SEVERELY over the coming year.

Quote
Bond investor Jeffrey Gundlach, the founder of DoubleLine Capital, reiterated his assertion that the U.S. is “on a suicide mission” by increasing its deficit while the Fed is raising interest rates.

Gundlach made the comments during a webcast on Tuesday afternoon shortly after the U.S. Treasury reported that the federal government ran a budget deficit of nearly $100.5 billion during October, an approximately 59% increase from the same month a year ago. October marks the beginning of fiscal 2019. The deficit is expected to move above $1 trillion this year.
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Neven

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5332 on: November 14, 2018, 06:59:53 PM »
If you don’t mind, I would like to set up a thread that deals with “the impeachment process”.

The Political theatre/wrestling thread can be used for that. I'd rather see Trump deposed at the ballot box, based on substance (ie policy and a vision for where Americans want to go), than on legal technicalities. I don't believe Russiagate can even accomplish the second, although the rampant corruption could, albeit with a massive effort. But there will be a price for that, because it strengthens Trump's fake argument that he is not part of the establishment, and that the elites wants him out because he is draining the swamp. This argument will be strengthened even further if all the other Washington corruption (also on the Dem side) doesn't get addressed. And then the US is set up for something much worse than Trump.

Now, if and when there is something substantial on the impeachment front, instead of the ratingsbait we've been subjected to for two years now, I may change my mind on whether a special thread is warranted, or whether it fits anywhere else than in the Political theatre/wrestling thread. But for now, that's the place.
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Martin Gisser

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5333 on: November 14, 2018, 09:46:20 PM »
I'd rather see Trump deposed at the ballot box,
Oh yeah, lets just wait and let the Trump catastrophe unfold a little longer. And risk a second term. Sorry, Neven, you lost it. You are a Trump denier, with all hallmarks of that other denial, from fact denial to lukewarmism.

Don't complain about climate deniers ever again.

Neven

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5334 on: November 14, 2018, 09:48:55 PM »
Don't complain about climate deniers ever again.

I won't. Your mindset is a much bigger hurdle to overcome.
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Neven

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5335 on: November 14, 2018, 10:10:28 PM »
This:

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Martin Gisser

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5336 on: November 15, 2018, 01:31:06 AM »
Don't complain about climate deniers ever again.

I won't. Your mindset is a much bigger hurdle to overcome.
You accused Rob of enabling warmongers. Now I accuse you of enabling American Fascism with your Trump lukewarmism. (Remember the rise of Hitler. Too many Germans, incl. Jews, were looking the other way. And you like to play Neville Chamberlain 1938 ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeasement
)


« Last Edit: November 15, 2018, 01:50:43 AM by Martin Gisser »

Neven

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5337 on: November 15, 2018, 10:51:12 AM »
You accused Rob of enabling warmongers. Now I accuse you of enabling American Fascism with your Trump lukewarmism. (Remember the rise of Hitler. Too many Germans, incl. Jews, were looking the other way. And you like to play Neville Chamberlain 1938 ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeasement)

I agree that 'appeasement' and pacifism only work up to a certain point, and if continued after that point, it enables the greater evil. I'm not sure if we have reached that point yet.

The problem with your thinking is that Trump isn't a cause, but a symptom. It's really important how you deal with that symptom. You just go: Chemo, chemo, chemo! But I fear something far worse may happen because of that, because you're not addressing the cause of the disease.

So, a little bit of chemo, yes, but lots of other stuff to really eradicate the disease, without killing the patient.

The American people are suffering, Martin. Taking out Trump through Whitewater-type legal means, like the Russiagate placebo, will not solve that. It will only make it worse. Trump was right when he said the swamp needs to be drained. The problem, of course, is that he is also part of that swamp.
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Martin Gisser

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5338 on: November 15, 2018, 02:22:59 PM »
The American people are suffering, Martin.
Yes. And they want to suffer. The more the better. I recall the healthcare debate before Obamacare. We want no stinking socialist healthcare! And: We want tax breaks for the rich! Etc.

Quote
Taking out Trump through Whitewater-type legal means, like the Russiagate placebo, will not solve that. It will only make it worse. Trump was right when he said the swamp needs to be drained. The problem, of course, is that he is also part of that swamp.
Lukewarmism. Bothsiderism. That mindset is one of the root causes of Trump. Gutsy pseudo polit theoretical thinking.

Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5339 on: November 15, 2018, 02:33:26 PM »
Martin:

Per Neven
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The American people are suffering, Martin. Taking out Trump through Whitewater-type legal means, like the Russiagate placebo, will not solve that. It will only make it worse. Trump was right when he said the swamp needs to be drained. The problem, of course, is that he is also part of that swamp.
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You are absolutely right regarding Trump and RussiaGate.  Some people NEVER learn from history.  Those that don't, are doomed to repeat it.  If you break the law .... especially if you break SEVERAL LAWS ..... then lie them ..... and then try to obstruct justice into the investigation .... then you are held accountable.  Very simple.

I wonder what happened to the person that said that "fighting Trump will only make him stronger and make things worse" (paraphrased).  I think the recent mid-term election put that thought to rest rather handily (except for those like Pence and Trump who publicly think they won).  And in the coming months ..... it will be even clearer to those that, for whatever reason, can't see it yet.

Comparing the PROCESS of the Clinton impeachment to "RussiaGate" is like comparing a cat to an elephant.  The Clinton impeachment proceeding which started with the Whitewater investigation and then included the Monica Lewinsky affair and obstructing justice into that affair investigation, was appropriate.  Should they have stopped after not finding anything in Whitewater? Probably.....but they didn't.  Instead they were led by people like Newt Gingrich who ..... by the way .... WAS INVOLVED IN AN AFFAIR WHILE CLINTON IMPEACHMENT WAS IN PROCESS.  Perhaps it was retribution for Watergate .... I don't know.

Clinton's big failure in my eyes was lying to the American people ABOUT THE LEWINSKI AFFIAR.  The affair itself was obviously wrong ..... but unless we want to remove 1/3 of the Senate and House for currently being involved in affairs ..... then you need to draw the line somewhere.  For me ..... I thought Clinton should have been ousted in the Senate FOR LYING TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.  But that is a "high bar" (I blame my high level of morals on my parents).   And if I were to use that same bar as "lying to the American people" ..... well, most presidents would have been in trouble.

As I said almost two years ago ..... RussiaGate is 10 times what Watergate was ..... and it is 50 times greater than what the Clinton impeachment was.  So holding up Clinton impeachment is a joke (maybe for use by a second rate Youtube comedian like Jimmy Dore). ;)  More on Jimmy Dore later ....

 




FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Neven

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5340 on: November 15, 2018, 04:48:38 PM »
Yes. And they want to suffer. The more the better. I recall the healthcare debate before Obamacare. We want no stinking socialist healthcare! And: We want tax breaks for the rich! Etc.

That's a broad brush you use there, and one would almost think there is some sadism involved here as well.

Yes, there are crazy redneck-type people in the US, but I don't believe this is a majority. Do the people who voted for Obama and then voted for Trump, deserve to suffer? Because they like it so much?

You'd make sense if you were a millionaire living in a bubble, surrounded by the same type of people as you. But you're not, and so you don't make any sense.

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Lukewarmism. Bothsiderism. That mindset is one of the root causes of Trump. Gutsy pseudo polit theoretical thinking.

Well, continued neoliberalism with pretty celebrity faces isn't going to cut it either. And there is no bothside-ism on my part. Both sides are one side. We are on the other side.

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I wonder what happened to the person that said that "fighting Trump will only make him stronger and make things worse" (paraphrased).

I don't know who that person is. I don't think it's me, because I keep stressing that what is important, is not whether you fight him, but how you fight him. Russiagate is the wrong way to fight him, unless you're an employee or shareholder of Comcast or some such. Especially if you let that suck all the air out of the room.

You fight him on policy. The identity politics and Russiagate is just the cherry on top. It's not the entire cake, or all the eggs in one basket.
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magnamentis

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5341 on: November 15, 2018, 05:06:13 PM »
Yes, there are crazy redneck-type people in the US, but I don't believe this is a majority.

no they're not but they're among the loudest and among those who strongest work with blackmail tactics based on group-dynamics.

if you don't say what i believe i say; so be it, each his own

if you don't say what they believe and live in their city or have a related business you have to
get a warm clothing and insure your property and drive your kids to school.

what i say here is not an absolute truth but i'm you get my point.

in short, they're loud, cruel, ruthless and mobbing others to a very high percentage.

wili

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5342 on: November 15, 2018, 05:12:50 PM »
Neven wrote "...isn't a cause, but a symptom..."

This is of course a medical metaphor. But even in medicine, there is not always a sharp line between causes and symptoms, at least in the sense that symptoms often exacerbate the problems the original causes generated...the kind of feedback we are well familiar with in climate science.

So yes, we must keep a strong focus on the basic justice issues--climate justice, economic justice, racial justice... But these can be better dealt with in an environment not dominated by a demagogue in the WH constantly and consciously lying about all these issues in quite harmful ways.

Limiting his power and influence--most importantly through the ballot box, but also by shining a bright light on his illegitimacy and corruption--have to be part of the struggle now, however we wish we could all just concentrate on the more basic stuff. (That's my view today, at least. Ask me tomorrow, and I may have a different take on it :) )
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

sedziobs

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5343 on: November 15, 2018, 05:16:29 PM »
Yes, there are crazy redneck-type people in the US, but I don't believe this is a majority.
They're not, but workers who are opposed to higher taxes are the majority.  The backlash to Obamacare was not just rednecks.

I agree that Russia issues should be in the background.  I think I acknowledge the potential reality of those issues more than you do, but they're not related to the real problem.  Ousting Trump will not dissuade his voters, which is what needs to happen.  Focusing on popular issues can make that happen.

The problem with corporate media is the same as the problem with corporate anything: profit motive.  Viewers are drawn to tribalism, so there is an incentive to promote it.  The Russia stuff does exactly that.  It doesn't mean it's all made up, just that TV news has a higher incentive to talk about Russia than policy.

Neven

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5344 on: November 15, 2018, 08:53:23 PM »
They're not, but workers who are opposed to higher taxes are the majority.  The backlash to Obamacare was not just rednecks.

Agreed, but my point was that neither do they 'want to suffer', nor do they deserve to suffer (the more the better), as Martin was arguing.

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I agree that Russia issues should be in the background.  I think I acknowledge the potential reality of those issues more than you do, but they're not related to the real problem.
 

Exactly, and there's a potential backlash.

Neven wrote "...isn't a cause, but a symptom..."

This is of course a medical metaphor. But even in medicine, there is not always a sharp line between causes and symptoms, at least in the sense that symptoms often exacerbate the problems the original causes generated...the kind of feedback we are well familiar with in climate science.

So yes, we must keep a strong focus on the basic justice issues--climate justice, economic justice, racial justice... But these can be better dealt with in an environment not dominated by a demagogue in the WH constantly and consciously lying about all these issues in quite harmful ways.

Limiting his power and influence--most importantly through the ballot box, but also by shining a bright light on his illegitimacy and corruption--have to be part of the struggle now, however we wish we could all just concentrate on the more basic stuff. (That's my view today, at least. Ask me tomorrow, and I may have a different take on it :) )

Agreed 100%.
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Martin Gisser

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5345 on: November 16, 2018, 02:22:30 AM »
Yes. And they want to suffer. The more the better. I recall the healthcare debate before Obamacare. We want no stinking socialist healthcare! And: We want tax breaks for the rich! Etc.

That's a broad brush you use there, and one would almost think there is some sadism involved here as well.
Well, yes. Perhaps I confused stupidity with masochism... But that's the picture of the political outcomes. I have talked about this with intelligent and informed Americans (they do exist), esp. the healthcare debate ca. 2010, before and after the midterms (when Jimmy Dore was still in diapers). Obama's (and Nancy Pelosi's !!!) great legacy is the breakthrough in healthcare politics.

One more, then I keep my sado mouth shut: Assault rifles for all!
« Last Edit: November 16, 2018, 02:38:54 AM by Martin Gisser »

Martin Gisser

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5346 on: November 16, 2018, 03:41:45 AM »
The Clinton impeachment proceeding which started with the Whitewater investigation and then included the Monica Lewinsky affair and obstructing justice into that affair investigation, was appropriate.
and heck, last year Trump admitted obstruction of justice in a MSM TV interview - of a totally different ballpark of obstruction of justice! That one thing alone makes the Mueller investigation already more than just a cherry on the cake (as Neven would like it to be).

That's just one of the lukewarmisms and bothsiderisms I complained about.


(Rachel Maddow Show commercial break over :) Saturday Night Massacre (cf. Nixon) perhaps coming, finally...)

P.S.:
He confessed again, now at the Daily Caller...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2018/11/15/trump-cant-stop-blurting-out-his-desire-to-obstruct-justice/

P.P.S.:
It might explain Donald's self-humiliation in Paris. Saving his hair...


But heck, this epic gets exhausting. I can understand Neven to some extent...


----------------------------------
P.P.P.S.:

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lukewarmisms and bothsiderisms
It isn't just Neven and the Red Lurks. I've seen a barrage of GOP propaganda on Facebook recently... Thus my impatience perhaps...
(Even a German and an Israeli hippie friend shared such stuff. My personal FB algorithm now de-friended them (in virtual reality only) - I don't want to be complicit in the next Cambridge Analytica/Russiagate Facebook=Volksempfänger thing...)

« Last Edit: November 16, 2018, 04:57:29 AM by Martin Gisser »

Rob Dekker

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5347 on: November 16, 2018, 08:41:28 AM »
Not sure if this is Trump policy or personality issue, but it is deeply troublesome :

To ease Turkish pressure on Saudis over killing, White House weighs expelling Erdogan foe

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/white-house-weighs-booting-erdogan-foe-u-s-appease-turkey-n933996

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Trump administration officials last month asked federal law enforcement agencies to examine legal ways of removing exiled Turkish cleric Fethullah Gulen in an attempt to persuade Erdogan to ease pressure on the Saudi government, the four sources said.

If true, would be double-whammy against reason and human rights :

First of all, because there is no evidence that Gulen is guilty of anything,
and secondly because it is pretty clear that the Saudis are guilty of killing journalist Khashoggi.

Trump really, really, REALLY likes the Saudis doesn't he ?
« Last Edit: November 16, 2018, 08:53:09 AM by Rob Dekker »
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Neven

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5348 on: November 16, 2018, 12:02:22 PM »
Everybody in Washington likes the Saudis (and Israelis) because of the b/trillions of dollars they pay for US bombs and rockets.

This is what needs to be focussed on, because it's not just about fighting Trump, but about changing the system at the same time:

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Neven

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5349 on: November 16, 2018, 12:16:12 PM »
From the media thread:

I think it is because Trump turned the presidency into a TV reality show.

Absolutely, and the media helped him achieve it. That's why it's so important to separate the wheat (policy) from the chaff (personality), and realize the mainstream media is not going to do it for you. Because its goals do not align with those of the majority of the American population.

To separate the wheat (policy) from the chaff (personality) is not so easy. With Trump it all blurs into some melting pot of actions.

For example (since we are on the journalism thread) the recent withdrawal of the press pass for Jim Acosta.  Was that a policy decision or a personality decision ?

That's all ratingsbait. Trump and Acosta are both assholes, creating controversy for personal gains. So, that's for the Political theatre/wrestling thread.

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On the economic front, same thing. For example, the trade war with China. Is that policy or just his bullying personality ?

I'd only be interested in the policy aspect of it, so it fits in this thread. Is it a bad policy, and if yes, may it be perceived as such by a majority of the people and thus be hung around Trump's neck?

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And how about the insults against these three African American journalists ? Was that personal, or was it part of his policy of putting minorities down ?

It's all a sideshow. We already know Trump uses racism to stay in the picture. Best not to give it too much attention, even if the media screams for ratings. It's for the other thread.

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You see ? Not so easy to find the boundary of where Trump's statements and actions are personal and when it's part of his policy.

I think Trump even does not know where the boundary is.

I find it quite easy to determine what goes where on this forum.

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He is just constantly shooting from the hip.

Shoot back with the policy stuff, occasionally throw in a 'Trump is actually part of the establishment' grenade, and ignore the rest. The energy you save, can be used to either reform the Democratic Party or form a third party. Because you have to fight Trump and change the system at the same time. The worst thing after Trump getting re-elected in 2020, is another neoliberal stooge taking his place.
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