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Voting closed: November 26, 2016, 07:11:49 AM

Author Topic: The Trump Presidency  (Read 585750 times)

Tunnelforce9

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5500 on: July 10, 2019, 09:06:34 PM »
Quote
"Constantly choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil."

And i want to add to that:  the cumulative effect goes unnoticed to most of the population untill it's (far) to late.

sidd

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5501 on: July 10, 2019, 10:38:31 PM »
Re: " As said above, when someone supports concentration camps, racism, anti-science, anti-regulation, etc, the analysis is worth dog shit."

So all of Stark's physics should be ignored as specious because Stark was a Nazi ?

To return to the thread: Appeals court rejects lawsuit against Trump on basis of emoluments clause. Lets see if it goes to the Supremes and if they decide to hear it.

https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/452388-appeals-court-dismisses-emoluments-clause-lawsuit-in-win-for-trump

sidd

Poldergeist

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5502 on: July 10, 2019, 11:01:38 PM »
AL, what would it take for you to not vote for Trump again? And does AGW play a role in how you vote?

This was directed to someone else, but as I also voted for Trump, I will give my own answer.
It would take Trump switching to a pro-choice position on abortion, or a candidate on the Dem side who is both for stopping AGW and stopping abortion.

I would like Neven to add a dislike button.

Poldergeist

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5503 on: July 10, 2019, 11:12:41 PM »
I nornally don't post in these garbage/pure politics threads, but I must say Abradolph Lincler's username requires an explanation.
I haven't seen anything racist or fascist in his posts, and Trump voting is not a crime (though imho a mistake). But his username is mighty suspicious. I don't find it funny.

Well, I just figured it's an amalgam of Abraham Lincoln and Adolf Hitler, before reading the Rick and Morty reference. I don't know them. But I do know who Adolf was. Anyone who calls himself a half (ass) Hitler, is out of his mind. Well, voting for Trump proved that as well.

I do not care if his name is taken from a cartoon character. Outside that sketch (and probably within it as well), just not funny.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2019, 11:28:05 PM by Poldergeist »

Neven

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5504 on: July 11, 2019, 12:35:16 AM »
Of all the political analyses I have seen, IMHO, this cuts to the heart of the matter. I'm sincere when I say it is brilliant, but those that need to hear it the most will likely ignore it as the rantings of yet another "deplorable".


Excellent, indeed. I'm surprised I hadn't seen it before.

I told Abradolph his name wouldn't sit well (besides the spelling mistake), but that was probably the idea. I don't think anyone here needs to worry that this guy is going to take over the forum. But I'm still hoping he'll answer my questions, given that we don't get a lot of Trump supporters here. He does seem to take Arctic sea ice loss seriously (we've already PM'ed over a first comment I didn't let through).

AL, what would it take for you to not vote for Trump again? And does AGW play a role in how you vote?
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Gumbercules

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5505 on: July 11, 2019, 12:44:25 AM »
AL, what would it take for you to not vote for Trump again? And does AGW play a role in how you vote?

Second question first and maybe only.

First of all, I'm not convinced AGW is real, but it seems like it is. I can grant CO2 is a greenhouse gas because I'm not equipped to challenge it. And Venus being warmer than Mercury seems to support it. In upstate NY weather has been too warm, not enough snow for my liking, though some places are colder. And we had a period this spring where it rained 8-9 days out of ten for something like 6 weeks. It was weird. Not a lot of rain, but it rained some amount almost every single day. So weather has been less "normal". But that's not enough to convince me its true. The least likely coincidence would be stranger than the total absence of coincidence. So weird weather isn't enough. And I don't have the time to study all the data that would be required to come to an understanding that would justify a high degree of confidence that GW is true in all its causes and implications. I'm also turned off by the very propagandish way people talk about it. Many people say it's as obvious as the Earth being round. NO. It isn't. I can see the Earth is round with my eyes by looking at literally one picture or seeing one event, like a lunar eclipse, or just look at any other planet through my own telescope. and gravity means things like to be spheres. KNOWING AGW is real requires many hours of study. Most people who say it's just obvious have no idea what they are talking about and are generally not scientifically literate. They just take it on faith because they're supposed to and it's consistent with their political ideology.

That being said, I can tentatively grant it's true. And we shouldn't ignore the environment, obviously. And generally, the less our impact on it, the better.

However AGW plays no role in my vote and probably never will. I'm fairly capitalist at heart. Capitalism is the almost a perfect economic analogy of evolution. In evolution if something works better than others, it will replace things that occupy the same niche but don't work as well. Conversely, if something doesn't work, evolution doesn't care how much the species wants to live. It's doomed. If the environment changes in a way the species cannot adapt to, it will die. The same behavior exists in capitalism, except you can transmit the equivalent of genes across the equivalent of species.

Additionally, if you place excess arbitrary burdens on a species that will also kill it. The same applies to business.

Basically, evolution works and it's impossible to overpower it. It's less about biology than it is about probability. Capitalism works and it's hard to prevent it from working. If we try to hard to control the process we will kill the process. So I'm very wary of exerting excess control on business because it's unnatural. Along those lines, I think either we will solve AGW with technology or it can't be solved. If we put excess control on industry we could prevent the solution.

Take for instance the price of hydrocarbons. Say decades ago we put price controls on them to raised the prices to discourage use and raise money for taxes to fund research. But the increase price makes it more expensive to experiment, because all experiments require energy. And decreased consumer use means less consumption, a smaller market for advanced technologies. A lot of incentives for technological development are removed.

As a result, the slowdown may prevent the technology necessary to address AGW from ever being created. Instead of advancement, we stagnate. So emissions may stay lower than they have grown to now, but we prolong them, and possibly impose stagnation that prevents a solution from ever being created, because you need an excess capacity in order to do research. If everyone is just subsisting we just keep emitting, but never learning anything that will help us wean ourselves off hydrocarbons. So the net result may be worse than just letting capitalism take care of it, and may actually doom us to a very dystopian outcome.

So I think we need very gentle controls on capitalism to solve the problem. Too much control and we upset the evolutionary process and might actually prevent progress.

That's why I don't care much about policy as it relates to AGW. We'll solve it without upending business and culture. If it can't be solved without that, we need massive disruption to solve it, and that would likely get messy, and possibly lead to war, and if a major war broke out billions could easily die along with the environment getting totally trashed along the way. 




« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 12:49:38 AM by Abradolph Lincler »

Gumbercules

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5506 on: July 11, 2019, 12:46:02 AM »
Of all the political analyses I have seen, IMHO, this cuts to the heart of the matter. I'm sincere when I say it is brilliant, but those that need to hear it the most will likely ignore it as the rantings of yet another "deplorable".


Excellent, indeed. I'm surprised I hadn't seen it before.

I told Abradolph his name wouldn't sit well (besides the spelling mistake), but that was probably the idea. I don't think anyone here needs to worry that this guy is going to take over the forum. But I'm still hoping he'll answer my questions, given that we don't get a lot of Trump supporters here. He does seem to take Arctic sea ice loss seriously (we've already PM'ed over a first comment I didn't let through).

AL, what would it take for you to not vote for Trump again? And does AGW play a role in how you vote?

Maybe I meant to include a reference to Dolph Lundgren as well.

Gumbercules

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5507 on: July 11, 2019, 01:06:27 AM »
I nornally don't post in these garbage/pure politics threads, but I must say Abradolph Lincler's username requires an explanation.
I haven't seen anything racist or fascist in his posts, and Trump voting is not a crime (though imho a mistake). But his username is mighty suspicious. I don't find it funny.

Well, I just figured it's an amalgam of Abraham Lincoln and Adolf Hitler, before reading the Rick and Morty reference. I don't know them. But I do know who Adolf was. Anyone who calls himself a half (ass) Hitler, is out of his mind. Well, voting for Trump proved that as well.

I do not care if his name is taken from a cartoon character. Outside that sketch (and probably within it as well), just not funny.

Lighten up.

Everything is a fit subject for humor. And horrible human events that people make light of can be made to be funny, and it's the recognition of their horribleness that actually makes them funny. Have you watched/listened to any stand-up. There are all sorts of inappropriate jokes that thousands of people laugh at. Ever watched South Park. It's funny. No one thinks the things they make fun of aren't serious. You can make light of things, in a certain way, while still recognizing their horribleness.

If it really bothers people that much I can change it, if that's allowed.

C'mon, this is funny:




oren

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5508 on: July 11, 2019, 02:21:44 AM »
I nornally don't post in these garbage/pure politics threads
while i understand what you mean, political dispute and expressing one's opinion is by no means garbage. this is a respectless formulation and i assume it slipped out.
While politics is important, I find that political discussion on the forum is fruitless. A scientific argument eventually has something to decide it, either the science itself or some future measurements. A political argument mostly finds the two sides disagreeing, not listening, each sure his or her own opinion is better than the other opinion, and quickly a shouting/posting match  is going on.
In any case, I apologize for my language.

etienne

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5509 on: July 11, 2019, 07:02:37 AM »
AL, what would it take for you to not vote for Trump again? And does AGW play a role in how you vote?

This was directed to someone else, but as I also voted for Trump, I will give my own answer.
It would take Trump switching to a pro-choice position on abortion, or a candidate on the Dem side who is both for stopping AGW and stopping abortion.
Here I see a priorities problem. I see AGW as more problematic than abortion. And is abortion really worse than firearms? Both kill. I see abortion as a problem that should be treated as a social problem, like drugs, violence against women... Abortion has a major religious component and I feel religion is a private matter.

Addendum:
Like with alcohol, the prohibition was a major failure in the 1920's, I don't believe abortion should be made "impossible". There are things that just can't be controlled, so we have to live with it the best we can.  Alcohol also kills and destroys families.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 02:15:47 PM by etienne »

Gumbercules

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5510 on: July 11, 2019, 08:33:27 AM »
But his username is mighty suspicious. I don't find it funny.

Exactly why my pulse went up in such an unhealthy way and made me go full opposition when i saw it.

Made me go full opposition. See my previous comment about reflexive responses to opposition. You said it was weird that you would make me more likely to vote for Trump. Well what is "make me go full opposition" if not that? I would like to post on other things that Trump, but being mischaracterized leads me to responding here a lot.

Gumbercules

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5511 on: July 11, 2019, 09:36:58 AM »
Your response actually makes me want to vote for Trump more. Isn't that weird?

Yeah, that's weird indeed. You would vote for him, but because of me, you vote for him more.

You just made a binary thing you already decided on weirdly about me.

Quote
assume I'm just racist, white supremacist, alt-right(whatever that is) deplorable?

You support Trump and therefore you support racist policies. You support concentration camps for example. You support children in cages.

Your motives don't matter anymore at this point.

I am German and i'm taking 'never forget' drop-dead serious.

Whatever you think about sides, you are on the wrong side of history.

Quote
I shouldn't be allowed to speak, just because I'm a Trump voter.

I get that you see it like that, but that's not it!

Just recently someone was banned because he supports BAU. You support BAU and even worse. Waaaaay worse! All the things the other dude was banned for, your post represent times 10.

In this context, i was asking Neven this question.

I'm giving you the opportunity to understand Trump voters, or at least a decent fraction of them. Isn't that much more worthwhile than the blanket condemnation you have engaged in? The right isn't going away, and if people on the left keep acting like you have, the right is going to get more traction.

I don't know how to multiquote. So...

BAU. Business as usual. I think I made a good case for business as usual as it pertains to actions to mitigate AGW. What did you think of my argument? Is it good or bad, if so why? I wouldn't say I "support" it, I'm just wary of extreme "solutions" and there should be serious discussions, not flippant, about what is to be done about it.

It's not because of you that I'd vote for him more. It's because of your behavior. You take such an extreme point of view your point of view needs a counterpoint. As the left goes further left, it needs to be balanced by a farther right. I'm not far right, but more center right can counter a few extreme left. Simplistically, let's say if there are 10 people who are a 10 on the scale of left, you can balance that with 100 people who are a 1 on the scale of right. I don't even think about it that way, that's just my explanation for what happens. I think it's more a reflexive digging in. If you don't think you're subject to digging in in response to pressure from an opposition, I don't think you know yourself or people in general that well. You did the exact thing, unbeknownst to yourself when you said my name made you "go full opposition", merely for a name, without knowing anything else about me and my views on various policies. And I'm not saying we need a balance because the middle ground is correct on every issue. One side can be 100% correct and the other 100% wrong, depending on the issue. The truth that being conservative or liberal is to a significant degree built into us due to genetics.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-genes-of-left-and-right/

That actually means that condemning conservatives means you're condemning people due to their genes. And we should all be very wary of doing that.

I don't know what I said that was "binary" about you. I don't know what you mean by that.

Support for Trump doesn't mean support for racist policies. He doesn't have significantly racist policies. Everyone on the left says he's racist, but that's nonsense barely meriting a specific response. The magnetic strip on the race card is worn out. You can't make that accusation any more without basis. The center doesn't tolerate it any more. That's why Trump won. Normal Americans got tired of it and many other things, and thus the eff you to the "establishment" (ignoring the question of whether or not DT is part of the establishment).

The camps aren't concentration camps. The whole point of use of term concentration camp is to link it to the camps in Germany in the 1940's and generate similar feelings, to use emotional, not rational arguments. People will say, but they ARE concentration camps technically, and while that may be true, the use of that term is definitely not done in good faith, because of the intended linking to treating people very poorly for completely messed up reasons. That is nothing more than propaganda.

I mean, you use the term, but you use it as if that means there could NEVER be a justified use for concentration camps. What if we had an communicable disease that was incurable, had a long dormancy period in which it was poorly communicable, but people without warning start showing symptoms at the same point that it becomes communicable and highly contagious, and there is a very high mortality rate, similar to ebola (50%)? And say there was an easy test for antibodies. So we could tell who was nearly guaranteed to develop the full disease and die, but before they die infect a lot of other people. Would it be wrong to concentrate people who test positive for the disease so they can live as free as possible until we can find a cure without causing the human race to go extinct? Yeah, it's an extreme and contrived case, but the point is if you can justify any edge case, that means concentration camps (per your defined appropriate use of the term) intrinsically bad and your use of the term loses its intrinsically bad connotation, which was the literal only point of your use of it.

Children were put in cages during the Obama administration. No one cared then. And it's for purely partisan and TDS reasons. See link:

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/obamas-dhs-secretary-migrant-cages-werent-invented-on-jan-20-2017

Give border enforcement more resources so they can better enforce immigration law. But those on the left (and many professional politicians on the right) want open borders. Open borders is unethical policy.

Build the wall, or better (I don't like the idea of a wall any more than you do), stop encouraging mass migration. Remove the incentives and you don't need a wall. Enforce immigration law on the interior and you don't need the wall. It's insane and economically childish to have open borders and a robust social safety net. It's econ 101 that that can't work. You can't have 150 million taxpayers paying in year after year, then let in millions of poor people every year that have immediate access to all the benefits those millions of taxpayers paid for, yet without spending any time here to pay for it. It's both unsustainable and unethical and will inevitably lead to chaos - which is probably part of the point of those that advocate for open borders. Let's stop encouraging the unsustainable mass migration and people will stop pouring in and we won't need to detain people.

My motives don't matter? We haven't even established that "my" policies are bad, and you've already condemned my motives, about which you've said nothing that demonstrates understanding them anyway.

You take "never forget" drop dead serious. So do I. But you don't take it nearly far enough and it doesn't look like you even understand what you say you take drop dead serious. The real lesson of the holocaust is to understand that you're a human, and so were the Nazis that put people in death camps and tortured them while there and exterminated them. Everyone likes to think that if they were alive in 1930's Germany they'd have fought fiercely against the Nazi's, but no one can know that. You may have gone along to get along. You may have even become one of the more sinister characters. If we were placed and grown in a different environment, we'd be different people, so we don't get to take credit for all of our current positive attributes, nor are we to be utterly condemned for all of your negative attributes. To quote Sam Harris in his talk on the absence of free will:

“You can't take credit for your talents, but it matters that you use them. You can't really be blamed for your weaknesses, but it matters that you correct them. So pride and shame don't make a lot of sense, in the final analysis, but they weren't much fun anyway.”

You say you're German so you take "never forget" seriously. That's a complete non sequiter. Plenty of Germans aren't stricken with irrational guilt for things they took no part in. The correct analysis is that Nazis were human and you're a human, so something like the holocaust is within the capacity of a being much like you (and me), since we're also human. The lesson is to understand how to avoid a repeat of that, and a repeat of Stalin's work/death camps which killed people on purpose and killed them for nothing more than political dissent, and killed more than the Nazis did in the holocaust. Interesting isn't it, how Stalin's killed more people in internal repression than Hitler, but people avoid talking about it and leftists often carry around the hammer an sickle flag, which is no less a symbol of mass murder than the Nazi swastika.

And we see the left acting now much as Stalin did, without the killing, yet. The left is dehumanizing the political opposition, without any serious discussion of policy differences. Dissent from your point of view has become a sin, equivalent in seriousness as one of the very bad sins to an evangelical Christian, and that's why people like ANTIFA (fascists themselves) get away with assaulting journalists and police do nothing to stop it. Republicans in the US get harassed and assaulted openly, and the media backs this behavior. Politicians call for public harassment of the political opposition. This a very dangerous position we're in, and the left it taking us there.

The western world is close to Stalin's USSR and will take us there if we're not careful, and it seems you're doing your part in the way you have condemned me, without any real attempt to understand differences of opinion.

And I'll restate that everything is a fit subject for humor. You can joke about horrible things, but that should be contingent on recognizing those things are horrible. David Chappele  (a black comedian) can make a skit about a KKK member that is blind and doesn't know they are black, and it's hilarious. If racism weren't wrong, it wouldn't be funny. It's funny specifically because racism is wrong, and absurd.

You have made no case for how I'm on the wrong side of anything, all of your points were just assertions and blanket condemnation.

There could actually be fruitful political discussions of people were not essentially condemned as evil for thoughtful disagreements on policy. You might even see that things are not as dire as they seem, since all the people you hate are far less deplorable than you think, if you took the time and made a genuine attempt to understand and discuss actual policy positions they hold and why they hold them.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 09:45:15 AM by Abradolph Lincler »

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5512 on: July 11, 2019, 06:30:33 PM »
Re: " As said above, when someone supports concentration camps, racism, anti-science, anti-regulation, etc, the analysis is worth dog shit."

So all of Stark's physics should be ignored as specious because Stark was a Nazi ?

I don't follow, Sidd. I'm not quite getting the logic here. We where talking about political analysis. I can't make the connection to physics really. The laws of physics don't change due to the political opinions of the discoverer, or do they?

kassy

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5513 on: July 11, 2019, 10:00:03 PM »
and stopping abortion.

Yeah lets stop abortion of US babies while keep selling bombs to drop on Yemeni cities so their babies die of bad sanitation. Push another country into a war over oil resources because that never hurt a kid ever.

Basically you are supporting post natal abortion.

Neven

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5514 on: July 11, 2019, 11:03:11 PM »
Abradolph, if you want to change your name, that's up to you.

And thanks for answering my question. I don't agree with everything, of course (even though I don't consider myself a typical lefty), but I understand where you're coming from.

I won't go into everything, but I'll quote your last two paragraphs:

So I think we need very gentle controls on capitalism to solve the problem. Too much control and we upset the evolutionary process and might actually prevent progress.

That's why I don't care much about policy as it relates to AGW. We'll solve it without upending business and culture. If it can't be solved without that, we need massive disruption to solve it, and that would likely get messy, and possibly lead to war, and if a major war broke out billions could easily die along with the environment getting totally trashed along the way.

I share your opinion that capitalism is probably the best system. In theory that is. In practice, unfettered capitalism becomes a vehicle for endless concentration of wealth, which destroys itself. It's a vicious cycle we have been in since the dawn of agriculture, with the stakes getting higher at each cycle.

I'm well acquainted with your analogy with evolution, but I believe it's a narrow and simplistic narrative devised by people who either looked for an excuse to justify their behaviour, or who were simply sociopaths (like Ayn Rand). I always find it highly ironic to see it espoused by people who are not millionaires or performing some kind of job that is rewarded by millionaires. But maybe you are a millionaire or get paid by one to further increase and concentrate their wealth.

It's sad that Charles Darwin's work gets abused that way, just like Adam Smith's work is twisted to make the argument that free markets are the be all and end all  (there's no such thing as a truly free market). Or look at what happened to Nietzsche's work in the 1930s.

The analogy is only half-true, which people soon learn when they switch to the losing side, due to misfortune. Yes, survival of the fittest is a part of nature, but cooperation and symbiosis take up a much larger part. In fact, if you're going to use evolution as an analogy, you could make a much stronger case for communism than for capitalism. Not that I'd want to, as communism doesn't work, and neither does unfettered capitalism.

Which brings us to AGW.

AGW is just one of many symptoms of unfettered capitalism. Others include top soil erosion, financial bubbles, ocean acidification, dumbing down of society, increasing inequality, resource wars, and the list goes on. These things are going to lead to the end of capitalism, as happens at the end of every cycle. Only this time, the stakes are so high, that there may not be a new cycle for a very long time.  Like you say yourself: Massive disruption killing billions and destroying the environment.

I agree that trying to do something about it, may lead to the same result. The genie is out of the bottle, it can't be put back in. But it may also not lead to the same result. What fetters need to be put on capitalism to avert the worst outcomes, which wires need to be cut without letting the ticking bomb go off?

To that end, you need to ask yourself why capitalism is unfettered? Why does it always lead to crony capitalism? In my view, it's because wealth always tries to grow and concentrate itself. This goes beyond the control of the rich, who are simply the owners of wealth on paper. In fact, it's wealth that owns them, which is why they're replaceable and interchangeable. Through them, wealth finds ways to become larger and larges, at the expense of everyone and everything, rich and poor.

So, if you want to put a fetter on capitalism to prevent it from destroying itself, it will inevitably have to do with restricting wealth to grow and concentrate endlessly.  You can only do this by putting a cap on individual wealth.

Of course, Trump is not going to do this. He serves concentrated wealth, just like Obama did (and still does). So, voting for him, will not lead to anything positive. Not that voting for Clinton would have. We can only hope there will be a better alternative next time.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 11:14:14 PM by Neven »
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TerryM

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5515 on: July 11, 2019, 11:08:28 PM »
and stopping abortion.

Yeah lets stop abortion of US babies while keep selling bombs to drop on Yemeni cities so their babies die of bad sanitation. Push another country into a war over oil resources because that never hurt a kid ever.

Basically you are supporting post natal abortion.


Perhaps we should ask Madam Albright if the death of 500,000 Iraqi kids was worth it.
Her response was "We think the price is worth it.
While the underlined "We" was understood to include both Clintons as well as the leadership of the DNC.


Kill em in the womb before emotional attachments have been made.
Terry

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5516 on: July 12, 2019, 02:10:15 AM »
and stopping abortion.

Yeah lets stop abortion of US babies while keep selling bombs to drop on Yemeni cities so their babies die of bad sanitation. Push another country into a war over oil resources because that never hurt a kid ever.

Basically you are supporting post natal abortion.

More people are killed by abortion than are killed in war.
SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

DrTskoul

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5517 on: July 12, 2019, 03:01:11 AM »
and stopping abortion.

Yeah lets stop abortion of US babies while keep selling bombs to drop on Yemeni cities so their babies die of bad sanitation. Push another country into a war over oil resources because that never hurt a kid ever.

Basically you are supporting post natal abortion.

More people are killed by abortion than are killed in war.

And miscarriages... I guess God is a murderer...
“You can know the name of a bird in all the languages of the world, but when you're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing whatever about the bird... So let's look at the bird and see what it's doing -- that's what counts.”
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Gumbercules

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5518 on: July 12, 2019, 03:54:41 AM »
and stopping abortion.

Yeah lets stop abortion of US babies while keep selling bombs to drop on Yemeni cities so their babies die of bad sanitation. Push another country into a war over oil resources because that never hurt a kid ever.

Basically you are supporting post natal abortion.

More people are killed by abortion than are killed in war.

And miscarriages... I guess God is a murderer...

As an atheist I think your response is snarky and not relevant. Miscarriages never had a chance. Nature knows those fetuses didn't have a chance so they die.

There are plenty of atheists that don't view abortion as a universal right. Of course the details matter. Something like the morning after pill is obviusly different than an abortion 2 days from the expected due date. The difference between those two extremes is what is important to most atheists that don't view abortion favorably.

Neven

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5519 on: July 12, 2019, 08:18:53 AM »
I don't want an abortion discussion here.
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Poldergeist

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5520 on: July 12, 2019, 11:00:12 AM »
quote abrADOLPH lincLER:

'Lighten up.

Everything is a fit subject for humor. '

To that I agree (well allmost). But, even jokes needs context. This forum is not a stand up, nor is it a Rick and Morty fanclub. Outside of a joking context your username is plain distasteful. I can joke that killing humans is good for the planet and killing Americans, as they pollute the most, even more so. Al Qaida were the real New Green Deal. I even think this is funny in the context of this forum. But it would be distasteful to wear a shirt proclaiming 'Kill Americans' while walking down the street. I might think it funny, but I guess most people won't grasp the irony intended.

Tunnelforce9

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5521 on: July 12, 2019, 05:22:17 PM »
@AL

What do you think will happen if Ebola breaks out all over America, do you think "superior whites" have a higher survivability rate then people who originated from Africa within the last 500 years ? 

I don't think so !

You should definitly watch this video btw :


b_lumenkraft

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5522 on: July 12, 2019, 05:38:05 PM »
As an atheist I think your response is snarky and not relevant. Miscarriages never had a chance. Nature knows those fetuses didn't have a chance so they die.

Only one of many examples with you:

Mother nature knows it all, but hey, i'm an atheist.

Dude, how isn't your brain exploding with all this cognitive dissonance?

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5523 on: July 12, 2019, 09:52:43 PM »
The US is escalating the concentration camps policies to the next step: Concealed concentration camps will become a thing which then become extermination camps.

This is a one to one copy of German Third Reich policies. Remember, Auschwitz is in Poland.

Also remember, Donald Trump is a Hitler fan. A book with Nazi speeches is the only book he reads. He has it on his nightstand.

https://prospect.org/article/trump-seeking-effectively-outsource-asylum-seekers-guatemala

Pragma

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5524 on: July 12, 2019, 10:15:32 PM »
The US is escalating the concentration camps policies to the next step: Concealed concentration camps will become a thing which then become extermination camps.

This is a one to one copy of German Third Reich policies. Remember, Auschwitz is in Poland.

Also remember, Donald Trump is a Hitler fan. A book with Nazi speeches is the only book he reads. He has it on his nightstand.

https://prospect.org/article/trump-seeking-effectively-outsource-asylum-seekers-guatemala

Your nose is getting longer!

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-hitler-mein-kampf/

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5525 on: July 12, 2019, 10:27:16 PM »
Your nose is getting longer!

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-hitler-mein-kampf/

Quote
Did Donald Trump Say ‘Mein Kampf’ Had a ‘Profound Effect’ on Him?

I stated he has it on his nightstand. That makes him a fan. Why would it be there? To learn how to not have concentration camps? Only to then have some himself?

Quote
Donald Trump 'kept book of Adolf Hitler's speeches in his bedside cabinet'
Link >> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/donald-trump-adolf-hitler-books-bedside-cabinet-ex-wife-ivana-trump-vanity-fair-1990-a7639041.html

Don't put words in my mouth, Pragma.

Pragma

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5526 on: July 12, 2019, 10:51:40 PM »
Quote from: b_lumenkraft link
Don't put words in my mouth, Pragma.

I don't need to:

Quote
Also remember, Donald Trump is a Hitler fan.

Snopes:

Quote
Not only were we unable to locate an original source for this quote, or evidence that Time magazine even interviewed Trump in 2002, but we see no discernible record of its existence before the meme first surfaced in April 2019. Yet it’s the kind of statement that would have been quoted ad nauseam in the press had Trump said it. No such references exist.

Nor were we able to find isolated instances of Trump praising Mein Kampf or Adolf Hitler in public statements. The cadence and grammar of the passage are Trump-like (“… but I do respect him. As a leader. Tremendous respect.”), but all indications point to it being fabricated.

Quote
A book with Nazi speeches is the only book he reads.

Now that is just silly. Reference please.

Snopes again:

Quote
Questions about what he read or didn’t read aside, we have yet to stumble upon a verifiable instance of Trump expressing respect or admiration for Adolf Hitler. What we did find is that people (including some close to him) have been insinuating that Trump has an affinity for Hitler for the better part of 30 years, which in and of itself is interesting.

"All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest, hmmmm"

Paul Simon, The Boxer


Gumbercules

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5527 on: July 12, 2019, 11:35:16 PM »
As an atheist I think your response is snarky and not relevant. Miscarriages never had a chance. Nature knows those fetuses didn't have a chance so they die.

Only one of many examples with you:

Mother nature knows it all, but hey, i'm an atheist.

Dude, how isn't your brain exploding with all this cognitive dissonance?
It's a figure of speech. And I didn't say "mother". Please do not put words in my mouth. 

Can you cite one of the many examples aside from that contrived one?

I would appreciate if you thoughtfully responded to my long post that was a response to your hateful and baseless condemnation.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 12:06:32 AM by Abradolph Lincler »

Gumbercules

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5528 on: July 12, 2019, 11:53:15 PM »
quote abrADOLPH lincLER:

'Lighten up.

Everything is a fit subject for humor. '

To that I agree (well allmost). But, even jokes needs context. This forum is not a stand up, nor is it a Rick and Morty fanclub. Outside of a joking context your username is plain distasteful. I can joke that killing humans is good for the planet and killing Americans, as they pollute the most, even more so. Al Qaida were the real New Green Deal. I even think this is funny in the context of this forum. But it would be distasteful to wear a shirt proclaiming 'Kill Americans' while walking down the street. I might think it funny, but I guess most people won't grasp the irony intended.

The linkage of Hitler and Lincoln kind of more than indicates it's a combination that is absurd for absurdity's sake. But fair enough. I'm trying to change it, but settings won't let me and I hate thinking of usernames (unless I have total liberty).

<Edit Neven: I've changed the name to Gumbercules, as requested.>
« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 11:14:08 AM by Neven »

Gumbercules

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5529 on: July 13, 2019, 03:22:52 AM »
The US is escalating the concentration camps policies to the next step: Concealed concentration camps will become a thing which then become extermination camps.

This is a one to one copy of German Third Reich policies. Remember, Auschwitz is in Poland.

Also remember, Donald Trump is a Hitler fan. A book with Nazi speeches is the only book he reads. He has it on his nightstand.

https://prospect.org/article/trump-seeking-effectively-outsource-asylum-seekers-guatemala

There is no evidence for your claims. Your own link disproves your hyperbolic claims. The link said Trump is trying to use safe third counties. Do you know Germany occupied Poland? Did we invade Guatemala unbeknownst to everyone but you? Are safe third countries concentration camps? The entire country? Are they extermination camps?

Do you know if you move people less far, and to places with a more similar culture, and without a much higher standard of living, you can actually help them more? Take Syria and East Africa. Europe had/has a problem with mass migration from these areas. More of these people can be helped with an equal amount of money by leaving them as close as possible to home. By a HUGE margin. About 10x in some cases. That makes letting them settle in high standard of living countries indefensible. How do you defend that immoral policy?

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/syrian-refugees-will-cost-ten-times-more-to-care-for-in-europe-than-in-neighboring-countries-a6928676.html
Quote: "A budget of $3,000 per refugee in Jordan would provide food, water, education and opportunity. In Germany this will cost $30,000"

https://www.npr.org/2018/01/13/577660805/a-new-approach-to-refugees-pay-them-to-go-home

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/refugee-costs-88-billion-80-000-per-immigrant-free-welfare-medicaid

Are you going to pay for the social services needed for the billion plus of poor people that would immigrate here if they could? If you don't make yourself poor through giving to help the less fortunate, don't pretend this is a moral stand you're taking. 

Open borders is an immoral policy.

Gumbercules

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5530 on: July 13, 2019, 03:38:11 AM »
@AL

What do you think will happen if Ebola breaks out all over America, do you think "superior whites" have a higher survivability rate then people who originated from Africa within the last 500 years ? 

I don't think so !

You should definitly watch this video btw :


Why did you say "superior whites"? Are you implying something about me that has no basis in fact? Who are the ones trying to bring ebola to the US? Not right wingers.

Lol. That video is certifiably insane. You think Trump is a fascist. That's hilarious. Pure TDS there. He is the least fascist president we've had since at least George W. Bush. Obama cracked down on journalists. Trump has not. All Trump has done is criticize the intentionally corrupt media, with completely logical justification. The mainstream media is corrupt to the core. They are nothing but the propaganda arm of the DNC. They ARE the enemy of the people. They are complicit in the attempted coup enacted by President Obama against the legitimately elected Trump by ignoring and not reporting on the obvious evidence of the treasonous attempt to overthrow Trump. Trump was set up in an attempted coup by the most corrupt administration in US history.

Sure Trump personally is a buffoon, maybe not too bright, and all around not a good person, but not a fascist. And it's just a fact that the left is FAR more fascist. But that makes sense, because it's standard operating procedure for leftists to accuse others of things they have done or plan to do. They did it with attacking Trump his refusal in a debate with Clinton to say he would definitely accept the results of the election. They still haven't accepted it, and are still working to destroy democracy by overturning it.

I don't have time to do into detail now, but I'll address all 14 points. You guys are pushing so hard to the insane left that you're creating more opposition.

The reaction to Trump's election and policies could not be more hysterical, delusional, and completely detached from logic, reason, and anything resembling reality.

If a democrat wins the 2020 election, that's when fascism will come to America. Remember the Soviets killed far more than the Nazis did. Have you seen journalists defending the attack by ANTIFA of other journalists? Have you seen any leftist journalist talk about the attack of the journalist Andy Ngo by ANTIFA? Nope. Because they like having ANTIFA around beating up people, even journalists.

They will try to ban so called hate speech according to an arbitrary definition of hate. They will try to confiscate guns. They will try to enact intentionally prejudiced laws. They simply are Stalinists that believe in show trials and kangaroo courts. We saw this during the Kavanaugh hearing. "Believe all women", which destroys something called presumption of innocence.



That is the what your side endorses. That's a journalist. That is in Portland. The mayor there tells the police to not protect that journalist, and to not arrest or even lay a hand on the ANTIFA thugs. That's what your side is. Fascist. Masked men with shields and weapons attacking dissidents. With support of mainstream journalists. We're in danger of losing freedom.

Proof here:





« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 04:23:45 AM by Abradolph Lincler »

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5531 on: July 13, 2019, 07:19:11 AM »
Sure, his ex-wife sais so and he sais so, so let's just believe the pathologic liar.

From your link:

Quote
To recap, Trump’s then-wife Ivana (from whom he was separated) told people he owned a book of Hitler’s speeches and read from it occasionally; Trump said he was given a copy of Mein Kampf by a Jewish friend (who, in fact, was not Jewish and said the book was My New Order); then Trump refused to acknowledge whether he owned the book and said that if he did, he would never read it.

In a subsequent television interview with Barbara Walters, Trump did acknowledge receiving a copy of My New Order, though he appeared to bristle at the implication that he admired Hitler’s speeches.

Pragma, you're gaslighting me is trying as fuck.

The problem here are the concentration camps, the racism and that he is doing Nazi policy.

Are you trying to divert from this fact deliberately? Are you trying to relativise Nazi policies?

Neven

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5532 on: July 13, 2019, 12:54:23 PM »
Gumbercules, formerly known as AL, I'll let your comment pass, but I'm already seeing the contours of where this is going to go (nowhere).

Sure Trump personally is a buffoon, maybe not too bright, and all around not a good person, but not a fascist. And it's just a fact that the left is FAR more fascist.

You guys are pushing so hard to the insane left that you're creating more opposition.

If a democrat wins the 2020 election, that's when fascism will come to America.

That's what your side is. Fascist.

Create an enemy in your mind, Us vs Them, spurred on by the media, and then assign everybody to that group. Your side, you guys, 'the left'.

So, basically, what you are doing, is just the same thing people are doing when they talk about 'deplorables'. Everyone that isn't Us, is Them, and Them need to be dehumanized.

To me, it's very simple. I don't care about labels, all I care about is whether a politician is truly representing the people, or whether he/she is representing the elites (in other words: concentrated wealth).

People who thought Obama would bring change and really fight for the people, were fooled. People who think Trump will do anything that will benefit them, are in the process of being fooled. Obama and Trump serve the same masters. And the way you, Gumbercules, and b_lumenkraft think, act and react, only reinforces this dynamic.

If you're going to polarise and divide the world up into black-and-white, at least do it the right way. It's not Us against Them, it's Us against Concentrated Wealth. Not against other people, but against an entity that comes into being as soon as a collective of people try to achieve progress.
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b_lumenkraft

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5533 on: July 13, 2019, 01:13:52 PM »
Sure Trump personally is a buffoon, maybe not too bright, and all around not a good person, but not a fascist. And it's just a fact that the left is FAR more fascist.

You guys are pushing so hard to the insane left that you're creating more opposition.

If a democrat wins the 2020 election, that's when fascism will come to America.

That's what your side is. Fascist.

Yepp, that guy obviously watches too many white-supremacy Youtube channels.

Called it!  8)

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5534 on: July 13, 2019, 01:42:45 PM »
Let's talk about the stories we're writing...


Tom_Mazanec

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5535 on: July 13, 2019, 06:23:53 PM »
The US is escalating the concentration camps policies to the next step: Concealed concentration camps will become a thing which then become extermination camps.

Uh, b_lumenkraft, I know what an "extermination camp" is but what is a "concealed concentration camp"? With things like Google Earth and airliner flights and highways going everywhere, how do you hide a concentration camp?
SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

Pragma

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5536 on: July 13, 2019, 09:01:56 PM »
Sure, his ex-wife sais so and he sais so, so let's just believe the pathologic liar.

You have sloppily, or dishonestly, conflated two different statements, but regardless, I wouldn't consider a jilted ex-trophy wife as the gold standard for credibility, particularly when there is zero corroboration. She would, however, probably be an excellent source for muckraking and innuendo and if her story fits into your narrative, then go ahead. The fact that she married Trump in the first place should be a red flag, but maybe that's just me.

Quote
Pragma, you're gaslighting me is trying as fuck.

I think you are using the term "gaslighting" incorrectly. Gaslighting is when someone is manipulated into questioning reality.

From where I sit, it looks like you just don't like it when someone challenges your authority or position. You can call it whatever you like, but where I come from, we refer to it as "calling bullshit".

You are entitled to your own opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts. I refuted your assertions, with research. You accused me of putting words in your mouth. I responded by quoting your very words. Every time I reply, you don't address it, you move the goalposts.

If you don't like someone calling bullshit on what you say, the solution is trivial; don't post bullshit.

If you are getting upset at someone disagreeing with your position, I suggest you reconsider posting on a forum.

If you are annoyed because you feel your opinions and assertions are above reproach and you shouldn't have to defend them, that speaks of a much bigger issue.

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5537 on: July 13, 2019, 09:34:21 PM »
Pragma, if you want to talk to me about concentration camps, i'm all ear.

I'm not at all interested in your opinion on my opinion on a fascist.

Gumbercules

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5538 on: July 14, 2019, 03:12:05 AM »
Pragma, if you want to talk to me about concentration camps, i'm all ear.

I'm not at all interested in your opinion on my opinion on a fascist.

Trump is not a fascist.

Are you willing to address my criticism of your condemnation of me?

Gumbercules

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5539 on: July 14, 2019, 03:18:41 AM »
Sure, his ex-wife sais so and he sais so, so let's just believe the pathologic liar.

You have sloppily, or dishonestly, conflated two different statements, but regardless, I wouldn't consider a jilted ex-trophy wife as the gold standard for credibility, particularly when there is zero corroboration. She would, however, probably be an excellent source for muckraking and innuendo and if her story fits into your narrative, then go ahead. The fact that she married Trump in the first place should be a red flag, but maybe that's just me.

Quote
Pragma, you're gaslighting me is trying as fuck.

I think you are using the term "gaslighting" incorrectly. Gaslighting is when someone is manipulated into questioning reality.

From where I sit, it looks like you just don't like it when someone challenges your authority or position. You can call it whatever you like, but where I come from, we refer to it as "calling bullshit".

You are entitled to your own opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts. I refuted your assertions, with research. You accused me of putting words in your mouth. I responded by quoting your very words. Every time I reply, you don't address it, you move the goalposts.

If you don't like someone calling bullshit on what you say, the solution is trivial; don't post bullshit.

If you are getting upset at someone disagreeing with your position, I suggest you reconsider posting on a forum.

If you are annoyed because you feel your opinions and assertions are above reproach and you shouldn't have to defend them, that speaks of a much bigger issue.

BINGO!

Gumbercules

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5540 on: July 14, 2019, 03:56:28 AM »
Let's talk about the stories we're writing...



Why do you re-post conspiracy theories? What comes next? Chemtrails or HAARP?
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 05:15:03 AM by Gumbercules »

Neven

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5541 on: July 14, 2019, 11:24:50 AM »
Why do you re-post conspiracy theories? What comes next? Chemtrails or HAARP?

But you're saying the exact same thing! Here it is: "If a democrat wins the 2020 election, that's when fascism will come to America."

It doesn't matter if 'the left' or 'the right' wins, if it's a candidate who represents concentrated wealth instead of the people, the USA will inexorably move towards fascism. And given that every president since Jimmy Carter has represented concentrated wealth instead of the people, one could argue that the USA is already a fascist state. Go and read through sidd's comments, containing a multitude of links that point to this.

You and b_lumenkraft help this dynamic by falling for those childish conquer&divide narratives of 'left vs right'. Obama wasn't 'left', just as Trump isn't 'right'. They serve one master only: concentrated wealth.
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b_lumenkraft

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5542 on: July 14, 2019, 11:30:25 AM »
But you're saying the exact same thing!

The cognitive dissonance with this guy is incredible. It's in every single sentence. Its as if he does it deliberately. No one can maintain such a mindset. This must be an act.

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5543 on: July 14, 2019, 11:36:47 AM »
You and b_lumenkraft

Where have i ever stated Obama was on the left? How would you possibly get the impression i would think that?

Also, can you give me a hint of how and where i served my master concentrated wealth? I don't think anything i ever said could give that impression but go ahead, show me, please.

Neven

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5544 on: July 14, 2019, 12:00:41 PM »
You're saying that I'm saying things you didn't say, and then you go and say things I never said. Makes it kind of hard to converse.  ::)

My point is that you and Gumbercules are alike in ways you both wouldn't like to admit, because you're constantly on the look-out for an enemy, just like TPTB want you to be. Gumbercules isn't your enemy and you are not his enemy. You have one shared enemy and that's concentrated wealth. Not the people who own that wealth (on paper), but the wealth itself.
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b_lumenkraft

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5545 on: July 14, 2019, 12:18:59 PM »
I'm speaking out against concentration camps here.

My enemies are people enabling and supporting these policies!

This is not because i'm on an outlook for enemies. I'm shocked you would say that to me. This is a horrible insult coming from you.

However, this place has become toxic now.

Neven

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5546 on: July 14, 2019, 12:35:54 PM »
You are not on the look-out for enemies, but you're very easily provoked. Instead of letting Gumbercules talk for a while (okay, he had a provocative name at first, because not everyone knows the Rick & Morty cartoon) to see where he's coming from exactly, you jump on him. While there are so many interesting things to ask Gumbercules, like for instance, whether he truly believes that Trump is looking out for ordinary Americans, etc.

Quote
However, this place has become toxic now.

"For there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so."
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johnm33

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5547 on: July 14, 2019, 01:55:33 PM »
Interesting interview with Michael Hudson where he criticises Trumps economic policy. https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-07-13/michael-hudson-de-dollarizing-american-financial-empire

Tunnelforce9

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5548 on: July 14, 2019, 06:11:25 PM »
Quote from: Gumbercules
You think Trump is a fascist. That's hilarious.

I never said Trump is a fascist, i don't think Trump knows what it entails.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Obama was a bad president but Trump is even worse if he continues his presidency like he is doing now.

Trump signed more executive orders last 2 years then Obama in his last 6 years.
I'd call that fascism, and what about giving his friends a get out of jail free card ?
That is insane.


And again:  Nazi concentration camps where barracks where people could go outside and walk trough the camp, they did Theatre and Comedy, they cooked their own meals, only later on in the war camps became deathcamps.  With other words :  the camps in the US have worse conditions then the nazi concentration camps had back in 1939

Pragma

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5549 on: July 14, 2019, 08:03:03 PM »
<snip> Obama wasn't 'left', just as Trump isn't 'right'. They serve one master only: concentrated wealth.

Absolutely correct! Every time I see the dog and pony show called the US Election, I am amazed at the trained seals, waving their signs as if there is a difference, as if they have a choice.

This is a narrative that has been created and carefully maintained. It is essential to sustaining the status quo. I could go on, but no one says it better than this:



Jonathan Pie is clever, but Carlin is genius, and that's not a word I throw around. Instead of the Pledge of Allegiance, this should be played every morning in schools, but the owners wouldn't allow it. If people really understood what Carlin was saying, there would be blood in the streets.

*edit* minor typo
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 08:41:34 PM by Pragma »