The Trump

[Neven]

I see this as a question of human freedom. That's why I'm wary of excess control. The history of civilization is a history of human non-freedom. We have codified freedom, mostly in the US constitution and we should be extremely careful with any new regulations which reduce freedom, since that's a very slippery slope that has repeatedly resulted in tens of millions of deaths. The worst results occurred in the countries (China, USSR, Cambodia) in which the aim was largely that of economic justice.

I agree that it's a fine line, which is why I don't advocate for 'equality' (as in communism), but rather for a limit on inequality. Not because I have some moral principles on equality itself, but because it puts a brake on the dynamic that is created by concentrated wealth.

Jean-Paul Sartre said that personal freedom is unlimited in principle, but it ends there where the freedom of another person starts. The problem with unfettered capitalism is that this dynamic created by concentrated wealth makes more and more people increasingly un-free. Whether it's physically un-free through for instance resource wars, or mentally un-free, through addiction and repetitive work, at some point it starts reducing freedom, which is when the second half of the cycle towards self-destruction starts.

Like Gumbercules says: It's never enough. How is that freedom? People are the slaves of their possessions, and the richer they are, the more responsibility they bear. I also have it good and don't have to worry much about money in general, but I dread the idea of being rich. Because it would mean I have to protect my wealth by making it grow, I would have to work for my wealth and be pre-occupied with it, like it's some demon ('my precious'). And then when I think of all the misery that my actions are causing... No thanks, my wife and I will invest in our home, our garden, our library, and if we ever have more than we need, we will probably buy up agricultural land and do something more useful with it.

Human nature is many things, not just greed. The way society is set up, determines which aspects of human nature are emphasized and which aren't. As soon as concentrated wealth takes over, it's only 'natural' that greed, cruelty and recklessness get rewarded. By de-concentrating wealth, room is created for other aspects of human nature.

But anyway, to get back on topic, I don't believe Trump has any intention of solving this, because he represents only a very small portion of the American population: the oligarchs. Who in turn are owned by their possessions and wealth. Poor, poor rich people.

[Poldergeist]

You are not on the look-out for enemies, but you're very easily provoked. Instead of letting Gumbercules talk for a while (okay, he had a provocative name at first, because not everyone knows the Rick & Morty cartoon) to see where he's coming from exactly, you jump on him. While there are so many interesting things to ask Gumbercules, like for instance, whether he truly believes that Trump is looking out for ordinary Americans, etc.

However, this place has become toxic now.

"For there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so."

Neven, IMHO you are gaslighting lumencraft. His historical perspective is valid. His ethical judgment is valid. It's not about left or right or seeking an enemy, it is about recognizing fascism and its facilitators. Trump is a fascist, no doubt. His supporters are enablers, as is the concentrated wealth enabling a system which brings fascism forward. The fascist formerly known as Adolf mixes valid points with a them versus us attitude and a -as has been noted- white supremacist storyline. It's all too familiar.

[Poldergeist]

Your response actually makes me want to vote for Trump more. Isn't that weird?

I am not going to quote everything. Just let me state a few obvious things:

Trump pulled out of the Paris agreement. Trump appointed climate change deniers in crucial posts, who went on deleting climate research etc etc. Trump supports coal and fracking. Oil companies receive more in subsidies (not very right-wing eh.. subsidies) -like 10 times as much- as all government spendiing on education.

Trump detains immigrants at the borders, but does not stop there. He criminalizes and dehumanizes people who are fleeing from hunger and repression.

Trump is racist, sexist. He is a liar. He demonizes free press as well as his political opponents.

This is not about left or right. Trump is a horrible horrible person and an enemy of the people, his own as well as every human on this planet. There is no argument -oh.. the left is so leftist...- that can make supporting this guy a valid option. Unless you really support his sexist, racist, white supremacist, anti-nature, fascist politics.

And BTW, the so called left in the USA is not left at all. We would call them slightly right of center. So read a few books, preferably Hannah Arendt, and follow some news sites outside of the US, preferably BBC, Al-Jazzeera or German, Dutch or Swedish programs, if you are able to understand non-English speaking people (they do exist you know). Try to understand Trumpism is not funny for anybody other than a few white men in America.

[Poldergeist]

I think the human being is maladaptive. I don't know if it's an intrinsic condition or we have acquired it, but at this point it is moot. Nowhere is this more evident than someone insisting on preserving the economy at the expense of the planet. The fact that politicians get together regularly, with the intention of negotiating with physics just blows my mind.

+1

Or, how some captains of industry seem to think going to Mars is a better option than saving Earth. Really funny if you think about it as an engineering problem. Mmm... what's easier, terraforming Mars of terrakeeping Earth?

[Pmt111500]

Trumpistan government reports there has not been any increase in forest fires in Alaska, reports of Bering Sea warming are false and the fishing industry is doing just fine, the fish stocks are full, "what of ,we do not tell, but they're full trust us.", a govt representative was heard saying.

[DrTskoul]

Trumpistan government reports there has not been any increase in forest fires in Alaska, reports of Bering Sea warming are false and the fishing industry is doing just fine, the fish stocks are full, "what of ,we do not tell, but they're full trust us.", a govt representative was heard saying.

Plus, because we stopped measuring, the bees are doing just fine and can handle all the toxic pesticides we can throw at them.

[Pragma]

Plus, because we stopped measuring, the bees are doing just fine and can handle all the toxic pesticides we can throw at them.

Did you notice that the bee research cancellation coincided with an "emergency" exemption to using a pesticide that was harmful to bees?

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/07/08/usda-indefinitely-suspends-honey-bee-tracking-survey-states-get-approval-use-bee

Although relevant,  that's just an aside. I came to this thread because I just had some insight into the whole wealth thing, especially concentrated wealth, and I think there is some misunderstanding.

People that are wealthy beyond avarice have limited ways to get a sense of acheivement. They don't get to save up for a fancy night out, or a trip to Ibiza. They don't get to buy out-of-season avocados as a treat. They have disadvantages that the rest of us don't.

They are, simply put, bored. So, they play Jenga.

However, they play Jenga in a way that befits their power, wealth and status. No plebeian alder blocks for them, no sir! They play with the real building blocks of our ecosystem.

For those not familiar with Jenga, here are the basics:

Players take turns removing one block at a time from a tower constructed of 54 blocks. Each block removed is then placed on top of the tower, creating a progressively taller and more unstable structure. The game ends when the tower falls, or if any piece falls from the tower other than the piece being knocked out to move to the top. The winner is the last person to successfully remove and place a block.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenga

So, when the Koch brothers pay millions to deny global warming, they are not evil, they just don't want anyone to interrupt their game.

[Tunnelforce9]

I think they are sociopaths.

Sociopaths are people who have little to no conscience. They will lie, cheat, steal and manipulate others for their own benefit. They know exactly what they are doing, they just don't care because they don't think that way. If you are naive enough, they will brainwash you into doing exactly what they say and what they want which is the only time a sociopath is truly happy.
Sociopaths can hide this well if you haven't known them for long. They're really nice and charming at first, almost too nice, but it's extremely fake. The niceness will last until a problem occurs in which they are at fault however, you will be manipulated to believe that you are in the wrong. There is no reasoning with this person. Things have to be their way or it's the highway. They will blame you for hurting them (even if they're the ones who hurt you) or blame the world for all their problems (knowing full well they do shitty things in general). They are compulsive liars and even if they do apologize, it's never genuine. Most are anti social and have few to no friends because most people around them don't want to associate with them. However the sociopath will again tell you that "people hate me for no reason/the world is against me". The only person who will put up with a sociopath is someone who is off their rocker or someone who has absolutely no self respect, or both of those two combined.

[Gumbercules]

You are not on the look-out for enemies, but you're very easily provoked. Instead of letting Gumbercules talk for a while (okay, he had a provocative name at first, because not everyone knows the Rick & Morty cartoon) to see where he's coming from exactly, you jump on him. While there are so many interesting things to ask Gumbercules, like for instance, whether he truly believes that Trump is looking out for ordinary Americans, etc.

However, this place has become toxic now.

"For there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so."

Neven, IMHO you are gaslighting lumencraft. His historical perspective is valid. His ethical judgment is valid. It's not about left or right or seeking an enemy, it is about recognizing fascism and its facilitators. Trump is a fascist, no doubt. His supporters are enablers, as is the concentrated wealth enabling a system which brings fascism forward. The fascist formerly known as Adolf mixes valid points with a them versus us attitude and a -as has been noted- white supremacist storyline. It's all too familiar.

Your demonizing of me is inappropriate and dishonest.

[Gumbercules]

Why do you re-post conspiracy theories? What comes next? Chemtrails or HAARP?

But you're saying the exact same thing! Here it is: "If a democrat wins the 2020 election, that's when fascism will come to America."

It doesn't matter if 'the left' or 'the right' wins, if it's a candidate who represents concentrated wealth instead of the people, the USA will inexorably move towards fascism. And given that every president since Jimmy Carter has represented concentrated wealth instead of the people, one could argue that the USA is already a fascist state. Go and read through sidd's comments, containing a multitude of links that point to this.

You and b_lumenkraft help this dynamic by falling for those childish conquer&divide narratives of 'left vs right'. Obama wasn't 'left', just as Trump isn't 'right'. They serve one master only: concentrated wealth.

There is a difference. lumencraft doesn't even attempt to address my rebuttal of his hateful condemnation. I'll talk about anything with anyone, and debate anything with no ground rules, other than no threats of violence.

lumencraft and poldergeist made this topic toxic by deceitfully demonizing me and oozing copious amounts of hate towards me. You can judge yourself if I have espoused any sort of fascistic views. Are their judgments of me fair? Who has been more civil? They won't go into detail as to what makes me a fascist or white supremacist because they don't want to be forced to defend their mischaracterization. Their behavior here itself is fascistic. Their rhetorical tactics are in the style of witch hunts and show trials and unpersoning common in fascistic states. 

I'm willing to discuss and defend (or concede) anything. But they don't engage except to condemn because they think they have the moral high ground and aren't even willing to talk to people they consider beneath them. They apparently don't believe in debate. That is the difference between right and left these days. Mainstream and even most fringe people on the right are willing to talk to anyone about anything with no ground rules - basically they actually believe in free speech. It's a mainstream notion on the left that it's wrong to even talk to people with whom you disagree, and you're seeing this behavior in action here. They don't believe in free speech, inquiry, or free and fair debate. The problem is once you are no longer willing to talk to a person all that is left is violence.

[Neven]

Whether Gumbercules is what some people think he is or not (I don't know yet, maybe he is), just by reacting to him the way they did and more or less ordering me to ban him (I might in the future, who knows), they lost. This really is not a smart way to handle a troll, whether he is one or not.

Why not engage with him first, instead of projecting all kinds of stuff onto him and go berserk right away? You can always go berserk at some later point. Now it's all about how people have reacted to Gumbercules, instead of his opinions on Trump. He can just ignore everything now and continue to whine about how people treat him here.

But I'd like to know whether he truly believes that Trump will make things better for the majority of the American people? Is Trump really fighting the establishment, or is he part of it? Has he drained the swamp, or extended it? And in light of all of this, is he the right president to deal with the risks of AGW, which are very serious?

[gerontocrat]

Trump is a snake-oil salesman and stumbled on the snake-oil that got him to the White House.

He is a misogynist.
He is a racist.
He appeals to the worst in people.

He is not immoral. Immoral people defy morality.
He is amoral. Morality does not exist for him.

He has the instincts and desires of a dictator.
He cannot be trusted.

When he is finished the USA will be weaker.
If he gets a second term the damage will be severe.

One "good" consequence is that the moral and ethical bankruptcy of the US Political establishment has been exposed - because he is still the President.

Trouble is, a lot of people a long way from the US of A could end up as collateral damage.

[Gumbercules]

Whether Gumbercules is what some people think he is or not (I don't know yet, maybe he is), just by reacting to him the way they did and more or less ordering me to ban him (I might in the future, who knows), they lost. This really is not a smart way to handle a troll, whether he is one or not.

Why not engage with him first, instead of projecting all kinds of stuff onto him and go berserk right away? You can always go berserk at some later point. Now it's all about how people have reacted to Gumbercules, instead of his opinions on Trump. He can just ignore everything now and continue to whine about how people treat him here.

But I'd like to know whether he truly believes that Trump will make things better for the majority of the American people? Is Trump really fighting the establishment, or is he part of it? Has he drained the swamp, or extended it? And in light of all of this, is he the right president to deal with the risks of AGW, which are very serious?

I am probably a troll to some extent. I mean, I do seek out debate. But that's not necessarily trolling. I think it's because even when I see someone who holds a view I do, I may still see their justification for doing so isn't logical and feel the need to point that out. Or there may be some reason their view could be valid while one of the arguments they dismiss on the other side is valid, even though I may still feel it insufficient to justify a change of view. So I'm as concerned about good and bad arguments as I am about true and false views. Obviously I want to have true views, but they aren't any good the justification for all of them is irrational.

Maybe more to the point, a quote from my favorite intellectual:

"It’s always worth establishing first principles. It’s always worth saying, what would you do if you met a Flat Earth Society member? Come to think of it, how can I prove the earth is round? Am I sure about the theory of evolution? I know it’s supposed to be true. Here’s someone who says there’s no such thing, it’s all intelligent design. How sure am I of my own views? Don’t take refuge in the false security of consensus, and the feeling that whatever you think you’re bound to be okay, because you’re in the safely moral majority."

I see a lot of forums, like reddit, and in many of these places like the politics sub on reddit, everyone just agrees with each other. So when they talk about Trump, it's all about how he's horrible, literally in every way, and if someone dares speak up and say, you know, I don't like him, but about this one tiny thing, he's not wrong, people just go nuts and pile on. Anyone that dares to question the local dogma gets shredded, and no one deals with their arguments, regardless of how civilly they are presented. It's like people WANT to exist in a laboratory quality echo chamber. I truly do not understand that inclination. I mean, I used to argue with creationists because I was an evangelical Christian, and about the time I left that religion for no religion I had LONG arguments with the Christians that I knew in real life (through our yahoo group) and I actually ENJOYED explaining all the interesting details within biology that make it nearly certain that humans and other animals share a common ancestor. And I enjoy astronomy, so I also enjoyed talking about all the reasons the universe HAS to be old. I didn't just call them stupid and say everyone knows the universe is 13.7 billion years old and you'd have to be an idiot to think otherwise. The result is that they actually had some good questions (and some kind of dumb ones), and I think a lot of them actually saw that there was very good reason for me to think what I thought and as a result they are more comfortable themselves with accepting these ideas than they otherwise would be.

More about trolling. I came to this forum because Guy McPhereson got me interested in the subject. I saw something about near term human extinction on youtube, and it was interesting. I can't evaluate his claims quantitatively, but qualitatively they made sense. I am interested in a BOE, even if it's as bad as Guy says, it's interesting. Just like nukes are interesting. Devastating, but still, if a nuke goes off, or a tornado hits, it's still fascinating to watch. So mostly I monitor two threads, the current melt season thread, and the other similar one with all the data and graphs.

I don't want to give advice to people who will vote for people who go heavy on identity politics, anti-capitalism, free everything for everyone. Those things and immigration is why I voted for Trump. I don't like the turn towards totalitarianism on the left, and that is what it is. It's all about identity politics. Suppressing speech in real life and on the internet, calling everything racist, sexist, lying about police killings, lying about the wage gap, and all around attempting to destabilize and overturn civil society and create a socialist utopia. Why this concerns me is best summed up in this video:



There are lots of people who voted for him for those exact reasons, and don't like being called racist, deplorable, irredeemable (without justification by the way) by people who continually bash the very country they both call home, and half the people who live there. Most of them aren't dumb enough to think Trump is going to make their lives great or greater (that's our own responsibility). Again, I don't want to give advice, but the behavior of people here only breeds more Trump supporters, because those people will still dislike Trump, but they see the danger of what the left is becoming as talked about in that video. Anyone on the fence, if they read the last few pages of this thread will likely see those who condemned most aggressively and find them to be irrational and hysterical and unwilling to even talk to people with whom they disagree. Most people are civil and reject such behavior and recognize the evil that can so easily come about if those who think dissidents shouldn't be allowed to speak get real power.

[be cause]

So I get it .. climate denier .. bad .. shown the door .. civil / human rights denier .. come in , sit down , Neven has all day for you .. pc b.c.

[Tunnelforce9]

American citizens held at ICE concentration camps

[wili]

To follow Trump today is to tell anyone who will listen that you would have followed Hitler had you been alive in the 1930s and 40s

https://www.palmerreport.com/analysis/went-there-just-do-trump/19334/

[philopek]

Great and important posts here recently.

When i compared him with Adolf 2 years ago i was quite alone, not new to me to be honest.

The question that i ask myself when viewing such revealing videos and articles is, when will they find reasons to block the stuff or shut down the web for public use in general or at least heavily censored.

As we all know, this can be easily done and is done in many countries at this very day and time, i.e. IRAN, P.R.C. to name just two of the most outstanding.

We're definitely heading towards a kind of "French Revolution 2.0" only that it will be almost global.

I'm not sure how much comparison is allowed or possible but certainly the "KINGS" will be held responsible and most probably in a similar manner as always and not much good will follow the first few years thereafter.

IMO it will start once shelves in supermarket remain empty for a given time and when ATM's won't spit money for a given time on a kind of global or semi-global scale.

[Gumbercules]

To follow Trump today is to tell anyone who will listen that you would have followed Hitler had you been alive in the 1930s and 40s

https://www.palmerreport.com/analysis/went-there-just-do-trump/19334/

There was nothing of substance in that rant. This is a hysteria completely disconnected with reality.

[Gumbercules]

You think Trump is a fascist. That's hilarious.

I never said Trump is a fascist, i don't think Trump knows what it entails.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Obama was a bad president but Trump is even worse if he continues his presidency like he is doing now.

Trump signed more executive orders last 2 years then Obama in his last 6 years.
I'd call that fascism, and what about giving his friends a get out of jail free card ?
That is insane.


And again:  Nazi concentration camps where barracks where people could go outside and walk trough the camp, they did Theatre and Comedy, they cooked their own meals, only later on in the war camps became deathcamps.  With other words :  the camps in the US have worse conditions then the nazi concentration camps had back in 1939

Lol. You don't do research to support your points.

Donald Trump issued 116 executive orders between 2017 and 2019.
Barack Obama issued 276 executive orders between 2009 and 2017.

Trump is on pace to issue 33% more EO's than Obama. 33%! OMG. UNPRECEDENTED FASCISM! Nope. Not the 3:1 ratio you suggested. Why did you provide flawed statistics?

By the argument in your last paragraph, literally all detention centers (of any kind, any time, anywhere in the world) that start any degree worse than the best conditions in a Nazi concentration camp is guaranteed to result in an extermination camp. Non sequiter much?

Presidents have the authority to pardon. They can pardon whomever they want. Bill Clinton pardoned lots of dirty people in highly questionable situations.

Which friends has Trump inappropriately pardoned?

[Rich]

Similarities between Trump and Hitler....

If we examine Hitler's rise to power, the context of the German people's desperate suffering in the post WW I environment is obviously essential.

They were so desperate and there really weren't any traditionally logical pathways for them to resolve their predicament. With their survival on the line, nature abhors a vacuum and Hitler stepped in to fill it. 

Fast forward to the 1950's and the German nation as a whole was better off as a result of the horrific processes which unfolded in the interim. The world is short of alternative theories about how the German people could have extricated themselves from their predicament. In hindsight, there is logic for the selection of Hitler as the leader in the destruction of the prevailing paradigm.

I tend to agree with Neven's perspective of concentrated wealth as something akin to a disease from which all suffer, including the wealthy.

The wealthy do not have the collective wisdom to cure the disease, so we are presented again with a vacuum which nature abhors.

The American people have basically exhausted the logical routes for curing the disease. Concentrated wealth has acquired enough of both political parties and the media to effectively suppress the possibility of reform.

A Sanders campaign and real populists in the mold of AOC are something of a last gasp effort to treat the disease proactively, as was achieved under FDR. When they fail, the appeal of a paradigm destroyer such as Trump rises.

Trump is a supremely pathological narcissist. He is immune to the suffering of others and has what it takes to lead the destruction of the paradigm.

He did have a copy of Hitler's speeches at his bedside table. The anecdote is too weird and specific to be contrived and the fact that he owned the book is corroborated in the Vanity Fair article by the man who gave him the book as a gift.

We can argue about whether Trump is a would-be Hitler. I think he is.

But it would be a better to discussion to understand why nature produces DSM-5 quality sociopaths. What is the genetic advantage to a population to have a small number of these individuals walking around?

The answer is that they represent a potential cure for social diseases which can not be treated otherwise. The politically incorrect conclusion that can't be shared in polite company is that Hitler was a success. He treated the paradigm of wealth concentration on behalf of the people who were suffering the most.

America in 2019 is not in as bad a shape as Germany in 1925, but the disease of concentrated wealth that Neven speaks to is entrenched. As the possibility of socially acceptable cures such as those espoused by Sanders are eliminated by the disease, the American people will subconsciously migrate to leaders who are willing to destroy lots of living tissue en route to removing the cancer.

If not Trump, there will be a more competent fascist to follow. Nature abhors a vacuum.

[Tunnelforce9]

Trump is nothing like Hitler.
Hitler served in WWI and got a medal, he was also more intelligent then Trump


but the road is clear..
Sturmabteilung or SA is beginning to take shape
First signs i've seen is in that state were rebublicans ran while the vote on environmental policy was pending.  Militia were threatening police and telling them they would protect the republicans.

Another ingredient is the Einsatzgruppen.
You need people who are allready emotionally stumped, maybe they served in Iraq, afghanistan, or working in ICE detention center or prisons .. humanity is a  big issue in the US military, Abu Graib....

[Rich]

Trump is nothing like Hitler.
Hitler served in WWI and got a medal, he was also more intelligent then Trump.

Such a thin argument. They have plenty in common. Much, more more than the average two humans out there.

Both sick fucks capable of watching millions die w/o losing sleep over it.

Hitler wasn't that intelligent. Choosing war with Russia and the US was a recipe for self-destruction. Trump obviously isn't a genius, but he had enough smarts to win the US Presidency.at least once.

When it comes to distracting the US public from the reality of the wealth concentration disease that is systematically destroying democracy, Trump is a genius.

No human in the history of the Republic has ever gathered so much attention to themself. I am hard pressed to even name someone who was close.

[Gumbercules]

Trump is nothing like Hitler.
Hitler served in WWI and got a medal, he was also more intelligent then Trump.

Such a thin argument. They have plenty in common. Much, more more than the average two humans out there.

Both sick fucks capable of watching millions die w/o losing sleep over it.

Hitler wasn't that intelligent. Choosing war with Russia and the US was a recipe for self-destruction. Trump obviously isn't a genius, but he had enough smarts to win the US Presidency.at least once.

When it comes to distracting the US public from the reality of the wealth concentration disease that is systematically destroying democracy, Trump is a genius.

No human in the history of the Republic has ever gathered so much attention to themself. I am hard pressed to even name someone who was close.

Let's revisit this in 2 or 6 years so we can all look back and laugh. I remember when people thought Bush II was going to put people in FEMA Camps.

[Tunnelforce9]

When it comes to distracting the US public from the reality of the wealth concentration disease that is systematically destroying democracy, Trump is a genius.

Trump doesn't understand those implications.
Mike Pence is 10 times as smart as Trump.
Hitler was 10 times as smart as Mike Pence.

What made Hitler's character ?
He was a proud soldier in WWI (and didn't get millions of Dollars from his father).
The Interbellum where Germany was castrated by the Allies after WWI , Germany couldn't have an airforce, navy or army and a number of German provinces where under allied control and on top of that there where giant reparations to be paid to the allies.
Life in Germany was so bad people where dying in the streets.
The Armistice after WWI lead to WWII.
Hitler went to jail for 9 months after the organized the Beer Hall Putch back in 1923.
In that 9 month period he wrote his book Mein Kampf.
Futhermore, Hitler was wounded a couple of times during his military service but he didn't want to be evacuated he wanted to stay with his fellow soldiers, he was that kind of guy.
At one time he was up for promotion but he turned it down.
Does that sound anything like Trump character wise ?

Let's not forget

“There is today one state,” wrote Hitler, “in which at least weak beginnings toward a better conception [of citizenship] are noticeable. Of course, it is not our model German Republic, but the United States.”
http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/blog/unwanted-sterilization-and-eugenics-programs-in-the-united-states/

Some more background

After the eugenics movement was well established in the United States, it spread to Germany. California eugenicists began producing literature promoting eugenics and sterilization and sending it overseas to German scientists and medical professionals.[7] By 1933, California had subjected more people to forceful sterilization than all other U.S. states combined. The forced sterilization program engineered by the Nazis was partly inspired by California's.[8]

The Rockefeller Foundation helped develop and fund various German eugenics programs,[98] including the one that Josef Mengele worked in before he went to Auschwitz.[7]

Upon returning from Germany in 1934, where more than 5,000 people per month were being forcibly sterilized, the California eugenics leader C. M. Goethe bragged to a colleague:

You will be interested to know that your work has played a powerful part in shaping the opinions of the group of intellectuals who are behind Hitler in this epoch-making program. Everywhere I sensed that their opinions have been tremendously stimulated by American thought ... I want you, my dear friend, to carry this thought with you for the rest of your life, that you have really jolted into action a great government of 60 million people.[7]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics_in_the_United_States

Peace, Eric

[Rich]

When it comes to distracting the US public from the reality of the wealth concentration disease that is systematically destroying democracy, Trump is a genius.

Trump doesn't understand those implications.

Are you as mind reader? You somehow know what Trump understands and does not understand?

Regardless of our assessment of Trump's intellect, he is a savant of sorts when it comes to dominating the news cycle.

We can appreciate the intelligence associated with writing a cogent book which Hitler had and Trump does not.

But in modern society, you don't dominate mass communications with books. You do it with TV and Twitter.

Please don't praise Hitler"s character. He's responsible for the extermination of millions of innocent and defenseless people, including children. He's just an example of a T-cell in nature's advanced immune system.

Trump is just a modern iteration of nature putting forth a T-cell to treat the disease of concentrated wealth. Concentrated wealth now owns the Congress, main stream media and SCOTUS.

To your point, Trump may have no clue or intention to play that role, but his narcissism is transcendent.

Consciously or not, the appeal of someone with the pathology to destroy the current system is growing. It is that pathology that Trump shares with Hitler.

[philopek]

When it comes to distracting the US public from the reality of the wealth concentration disease that is systematically destroying democracy, Trump is a genius.

Trump doesn't understand those implications.

Are you as mind reader? You somehow know what Trump understands and does not understand?

Regardless of our assessment of Trump's intellect, he is a savant of sorts when it comes to dominating the news cycle.

We can appreciate the intelligence associated with writing a cogent book which Hitler had and Trump does not.

But in modern society, you don't dominate mass communications with books. You do it with TV and Twitter.

Please don't praise Hitler"s character. He's responsible for the extermination of millions of innocent and defenseless people, including children. He's just an example of a T-cell in nature's advanced immune system.

Trump is just a modern iteration of nature putting forth a T-cell to treat the disease of concentrated wealth. Concentrated wealth now owns the Congress, main stream media and SCOTUS.

To your point, Trump may have no clue or intention to play that role, but his narcissism is transcendent.

Consciously or not, the appeal of someone with the pathology to destroy the current system is growing. It is that pathology that Trump shares with Hitler.

"SAVANT" ? 

That's cruel 

Can't say more to keep it civil, sorry.

What remains is the question whether it's on purpose or due to astounding deficiencies in objectivity and other skills.

[Tunnelforce9]

...
It’s looking more and more like the endgame here for Trump—and the right-wing billionaires who support him and the GOP—is not just to get reelected, but to actually rewrite our Constitution and end the American experiment.

The group leading this charge for the billionaires is called Citizens for Self-Governance (CSG), which SourceWatch.org says, “is a right-wing political organization ... that is campaigning for an Article V convention to amend the U.S. Constitution.”

...

“In September 2016, CSG held a simulated convention to propose amendments to the United States Constitution in Williamsburg, Virginia. An assembly of 137 delegates representing every state gathered to conduct a simulated convention. The simulated convention passed amendments relating to six topics, including requiring the states to approve any increase in the national debt, imposing term limits, restricting the scope of the Commerce Clause [to its original meaning], limiting the power of federal regulations, requiring a supermajority to impose federal taxes and repealing the 16th Amendment [end the income tax], and giving the states the power to abrogate any federal law, regulation, or executive order.”

 ...

If Trump is as successful in manipulating the media as he was in 2016, and the GOP can ride his coattails (along with hundreds of millions from right-wing billionaires) to sweep the Democratic-controlled states they’re targeting, they could hit the 38 states needed to replace the Constitution in the first year or two after his reelection (there are 40 states in the lists above).

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2019/07/17/how-trojan-horse-project-rewrite-our-constitution-could-actually-happen-if-trump

[Gumbercules]

Trump is nothing like Hitler.
Hitler served in WWI and got a medal, he was also more intelligent then Trump


but the road is clear..
Sturmabteilung or SA is beginning to take shape
First signs i've seen is in that state were rebublicans ran while the vote on environmental policy was pending.  Militia were threatening police and telling them they would protect the republicans.

Another ingredient is the Einsatzgruppen.
You need people who are allready emotionally stumped, maybe they served in Iraq, afghanistan, or working in ICE detention center or prisons .. humanity is a  big issue in the US military, Abu Graib....

Then why don't you volunteer for service so those you condemn don't have to and we have better people to enforce the laws? Too old? Encourage your morally superior kids, grand kids, and those of your morally superior friends to volunteer for a few years.

Those in the military volunteered to put their lives on the line and many have seen things you can't possibly imagine and might not recover from. My father donated blood in flight in a Huey to the point of temporarily going blind to help a guy whose guts were literally spilling out before they wrapped him up for transport. The guy survived. He watched a more experienced soldier fill a seemingly innocent pre-teen Vietnamese girl walking towards them with bullets because the soldier could tell she was carrying a bomb. He crawled through Vietcong tunnels in which you could barely squeeze through - I think I would have a panic attack just being in the tunnel, let alone engaging in combat there. The world is tragic often horrifying and you seem to lack any understanding or even concern about what people far more courageous than you have sacrificed on your behalf. Don't denigrate them so quickly. The fact that you do is rather sickening. 20 veterans commit suicide daily. The ones most prone to suicide are likely the ones that saw the worst and sacrificed the most.

You call them Einsatzgruppen. How dare you.

Einsatzgruppen, (German: “deployment groups”) units of the Nazi security forces composed of members of the SS, the Sicherheitspolizei (Sipo; “Security Police”), and the Ordnungspolizei (Orpo; “Order Police”) that acted as mobile killing units during the German invasions of Poland (1939) and the Soviet Union (1941). Originally created in advance of the occupation of the Sudetenland and Austria prior to the outbreak of World War II, these units received orders to confiscate political and governmental materials and to identify and arrest political enemies, including Jews, Freemasons, members of the Communist Party, religious leaders, and those suspected of political opposition to the Nazi regime.

The above paragraph is sourced from https://www.britannica.com/topic/Einsatzgruppen

Saying anything even in the ballpark of "Trump equals or is becoming Hitler" proves you're hysterical. Haven't you heard of Godwin's Law?

From Wikipedia:

Godwin's law (or Godwin's rule of Hitler analogies)[1][2] is an Internet adage asserting that "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1";[2][3]

There are many corollaries to Godwin's law, some considered more canonical (by being adopted by Godwin himself)[3] than others.[1] For example, there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that, when a Hitler comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever made the comparison loses whatever debate is in progress.[8] This principle is itself frequently referred to as Godwin's law.[9]

There are many legitimate things to criticize about Trump. Him bringing on an American Reich are not one of them. He's one of the least powerful presidents we have had in a long time, although that is due to the media and the deep state that attempted a coup against him.

[TerryM]

^^Ramen!!


Trump is a lot of things - powerful is not one of them.
Terry

[DrTskoul]

US withdraws from nuclear treaty with Russia

[TerryM]

US withdraws from nuclear treaty with Russia

That's got to reassure everyone.
Terry

[cognitivebias2]

Ratcliffe withdraws name as Director of National Intelligence

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/08/02/donald-trump-john-ratcliffe-out-national-intelligence-director/1902336001/

Donald Trump attacks the media, manages a bit of puffery by pretending that he can explain anything to anyone, and 'kind of' acknowledges that this pick was pretty horrible.

"Our great Republican Congressman John Ratcliffe is being treated very unfairly by the LameStream Media. Rather than going through months of slander and libel, I explained to John how miserable it would be for him and his family to deal with these people....
"

As a resident of neighboring TX-3 I'd say, please take him if not for the seriousness of the job.

[blumenkraft]

Let's talk about backpacks, rhetoric, and paths....

[Gumbercules]

Let's talk about backpacks, rhetoric, and paths....

Can we ban linked videos with no commentary from the poster? What is the point? Why should anyone watch a video you post with no context?

Why did my post asking Lumncraft about his own thoughts on a video he posted get deleted while his contextless post of a video gets to remain? By definition, if his video post was on topic, mine was also, since I was just asking about his views on the video's content.

[DrTskoul]

Mitch McConnell fractures shoulder after falling in Kentucky home

Damn...he missed his head

[TerryM]

Mitch McConnell fractures shoulder after falling in Kentucky home

Damn...he missed his head

Injuring his shoulder may be far more serious - he certainly uses it more than his head, and after all it's not solid bone.
Terry

[Neven]

Can we ban linked videos with no commentary from the poster? What is the point? Why should anyone watch a video you post with no context?

I assume it's something about Trump that blumenkraft agrees with.

Why did my post asking Lumncraft about his own thoughts on a video he posted get deleted while his contextless post of a video gets to remain?

I'm willing to approve comments that probably lead to strife/endless discussions, but only if I believe they make sense and are worth it. In this case, I didn't let your comment go through because of the way you worded it, which would've led to nothing but bickering.

[Gumbercules]

Can we ban linked videos with no commentary from the poster? What is the point? Why should anyone watch a video you post with no context?

I assume it's something about Trump that blumenkraft agrees with.

Why did my post asking Lumncraft about his own thoughts on a video he posted get deleted while his contextless post of a video gets to remain?

I'm willing to approve comments that probably lead to strife/endless discussions, but only if I believe they make sense and are worth it. In this case, I didn't let your comment go through because of the way you worded it, which would've led to nothing but bickering.

You ASSUME? How do you know? Does he agree with 100% of the video? In every possible way? Does he have nothing to add to the video, or anything from it about which he'd elaborate upon?

Precisely how did I word it that was disqualifying?

This just looks to me like bias in moderation.

[Neven]

This just looks to me like bias in moderation.

Absolutely. What do you expect? My forum, my work, my bias.

[Tom_Mazanec]

Trump more popular than in 2016?
https://www.rawstory.com/2019/08/donald-trump-more-popular-today-than-in-2016-report/

[blumenkraft]

Let's talk about this week...

[vox_mundi]

Trump Admin Reportedly Drafting Order to Counter Social Media “Bias”
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/08/trump-admin-reportedly-drafting-order-to-counter-social-media-bias/
https://gizmodo.com/the-white-house-readies-draft-of-executive-order-that-c-1837110097

The Trump administration seems determined to take action concerning its irritation with social media networks' supposed bias against right-wing speech, as the White House is reportedly drafting an executive order directing agencies to do something about it.

-

The current draft, called "Protecting Americans from Online Censorship," would put the burden of Internet content management on the Federal Communications Commission, calling on the agency—which has never before dealt with regulation of online content—to develop regulations clarifying under what circumstances social media platforms are protected by the law when moderating content. It also says the Federal Trade Commission should consider whatever policies the FCC comes up with when it investigates companies for not adhering to their stated policies.

... its overall suggestion implies that the administration is hoping that the handpicked powers that be at the FCC and FTC would rework enforcement of Section 230 in a way that helps conservatives—or at least helps them make the case that they’re being censored. The irony is that the FCC and FTC don’t even do a great job of enforcing the things that already fall under their jurisdiction. But, if everything went according to the apparent plan, theoretically, corruption could prevail in Trump’s interest. And the chilling effect could be that major social networks severely restrict what users could post or simply find its unrealistic to continue operating.

... Trump last month held a social media event at the White House, and he railed against the "tremendous dishonesty, bias, discrimination, and suppression practiced by" platforms such as Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube. "We will not let them get away with it much longer," he said at the time.

The platforms' supposed silencing of conservative voices is "disgraceful," added the president, whose personal Twitter account has about 63 million followers.

For Trump's 'Social Media Summit' the administration puzzlingly did not invite Facebook, Twitter, or any other major social media companies, but rather a coterie of sycophants who say that Big Tech censors conservative content on its platforms. Participants include Trump allies like Sen. Marsha Blackburn and Rep. Matt Gaetz and representatives of the Heritage Foundation. From there, the guest list gets … colorful. Here’s a partial look at who’s going to the summit—or at least who claims to be attending. https://slate.com/technology/2019/07/trump-social-media-summit-attendees.html

[vox_mundi]

Trump’s Photo-Op With the Orphaned El Paso Baby Was the Smallest Moment of His Presidency
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/08/trump-photo-melania-el-paso-orphan-baby-photo.html

It took a tiny baby to reveal how small Donald Trump really is.

The president’s trip to Dayton, Ohio, and El Paso, Texas, this week, ostensibly undertaken to comfort the mourners and the injured in the wake of two horrifying mass murder sprees that left at least 31 people dead and many more injured, went terribly, terribly wrong. The Washington Post observed on Thursday that inside the White House, the trip was generally seen as “not ideal,” in the words of one senior administration official.

... Five of the eight El Paso victims who were still in the hospital reportedly declined to meet with the president, and three were physically unable to. It appears baby Paul was brought back to the hospital by White House staff for the photo-op.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dead_Zone_(film)

That’s the president, grinning and giving a thumbs-up, as the orphaned child is held out like a trophy. If words weren’t inclined to fail, ghoulish and surreal might serve. This child has no parents because a shooter spouting Trumpist talking points about foreign “invaders” went to El Paso to kill them. And while the president refused to speak to reporters, who were scolded by the White House press secretary, Stephanie Grisham, in a statement saying that the visits were all “about the victims” and not a “photo op,” hours later, Trump released a campaign-style video of his triumphal comforting tour.

It’s not simply that an injured baby had to be returned to a hospital so that a grinning president could throw a Fonzie-style thumbs-up for the Twitter fans—that’s gross, yes, but it misses the point. The point is that this president, who understands only ratings and adulation and crowd size and “getting credit,” is seemingly incapable of subordinating all that to the moment.

... Oh, he can pull off the photo-op; this is a man made of photo-ops. But time and time again, when he is called on to deal with real people—not glassy superfans but genuine human beings whom he allegedly serves as president—he fails to meet the occasion. The consummate reality-TV president is unerringly confounded by reality. ...

[vox_mundi]

Leading Civil Rights Lawyer Shows 20 Ways Trump Is Copying Hitler’s Early Rhetoric and Policies
http://smirkingchimp.com/thread/steven-rosenfeld/86013/leading-civil-rights-lawyer-shows-20-ways-trump-is-copying-hitler-s-early-rhetoric-and-policies

A new book by one of the nation’s foremost civil liberties lawyers powerfully describes how America’s constitutional checks and balances are being pushed to the brink by a president who is consciously following Adolf Hitler’s extremist propaganda and policy template from the early 1930s—when the Nazis took power in Germany.

In When at Times the Mob Is Swayed: A Citizen’s Guide to Defending Our Republic, Burt Neuborne mostly focuses on how America’s constitutional foundation in 2019—an unrepresentative Congress, the Electoral College and a right-wing Supreme Court majority—is not positioned to withstand Trump’s extreme polarization and GOP power grabs. However, its second chapter, “]Why the Sudden Concern About Fixing the Brakes?,” extensively details Trump’s mimicry of Hitler’s pre-war rhetoric and strategies.



... “Why does an ignorant, narcissistic buffoon like Trump trigger such anxiety? Why do so many Americans feel it existentially (not just politically) important to resist our forty-fifth president?” he writes. “Partly it’s just aesthetics. Trump is such a coarse and appalling man that it’s hard to stomach his presence in Abraham Lincoln’s house. But that’s not enough to explain the intensity of my dread. LBJ was coarse. Gerald Ford and George W. Bush were dumb as rocks. Richard Nixon was an anti-Semite. Bill Clinton’s mistreatment of women dishonored his office. Ronald Reagan was a dangerous ideologue. I opposed each of them when they appeared to exceed their constitutional powers. But I never felt a sense of existential dread. I never sensed that the very existence of a tolerant democracy was in play.”

A younger Trump, according to his first wife’s divorce filings, kept and studied a book translating and annotating Adolf Hitler’s pre-World War II speeches in a locked bedside cabinet, Neuborne noted. The English edition of My New Order, published in 1941, also had analyses of the speeches’ impact on his era’s press and politics. “Ugly and appalling as they are, those speeches are masterpieces of demagogic manipulation,” Neuborne says.

“Watching Trump work his crowds, though, I see a dangerously manipulative narcissist unleashing the demagogic spells that he learned from studying Hitler’s speeches—spells that he cannot control and that are capable of eroding the fabric of American democracy,” Neuborne says. “You see, we’ve seen what these rhetorical techniques can do. Much of Trump’s rhetoric—as a candidate and in office—mirrors the strategies, even the language, used by Adolf Hitler in the early 1930s to erode German democracy.”

Many Americans may seize or condemn Neuborne’s analysis, which has more than 20 major points of comparison. The author repeatedly says his goal is not “equating” the men—as “it trivializes Hitler’s obscene crimes to compare them to Trump’s often pathetic foibles.”

Indeed, the book has a larger frame: whether federal checks and balances—Congress, the Supreme Court, the Electoral College—can contain the havoc and vandalism that Trump thrives on and the Republican Party at large has embraced. But the Trump-Hitler compilation is a stunning warning, because, as many Holocaust survivors have said, few Germans or Europeans expected what unfolded in the years after Hitler amassed power.

Here’s how Neuborne introduces this section. Many recent presidents have been awful, “But then there was Donald Trump, the only president in recent American history to openly despise the twin ideals—individual dignity and fundamental equality—upon which the contemporary United States is built. When you confront the reality of a president like Trump, the state of both sets of brakes—internal [constitutional] and external [public resistance]—become hugely important because Donald Trump’s political train runs on the most potent and dangerous fuel of all: a steady diet of fear, greed, loathing, lies, and envy. It’s a toxic mixture that has destroyed democracies before, and can do so again.

“Give Trump credit,” he continues. “He did his homework well and became the twenty-first-century master of divisive rhetoric. We’re used to thinking of Hitler’s Third Reich as the incomparably evil tyranny that it undoubtedly was. But Hitler didn’t take power by force. He used a set of rhetorical tropes codified in Trump’s bedside reading that persuaded enough Germans to welcome Hitler as a populist leader. The Nazis did not overthrow the Weimar Republic. It fell into their hands as the fruit of Hitler’s satanic ability to mesmerize enough Germans to trade their birthright for a pottage of scapegoating, short-term economic gain, xenophobia, and racism. It could happen here.”

20 Common Themes, Rhetorical Tactics and Dangerous Policies

Here are 20 serious points of comparison between the early Hitler and Trump. ...

[blumenkraft]

It could happen here.

No, it is happening there!

Thanks, Vox Mundi for sharing. Last time i brought up this exact point i got backlash from some nazi supporters who don't think of themselves as nazi supporter. I hope they read this without giving you that kind of crap and learn something for once.

[budmantis]

Vox, your contributions on this subject are spot on IMO, and much appreciated.

[Tom_Mazanec]

https://www.dailyclimate.org/the-administration-said-it-was-moving-these-agencies-for-efficiency-now-the-truth-comes-out-the-washington-post-2639776919.html
Real reason two agencies are to move from DC to Kansas City.
Also, Trump weakens the 1973 Endangered Species Act (a Nixon legacy):
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/12/climate/endangered-species-act-changes.html and
https://insideclimatenews.org/news/13082019/climate-change-endangered-species-act-arctic-trump-changes-polar-bears-wildlife
Well, here is an industry Trump is unleashing an environmental review on...Wind Power:
https://www.eenews.net/stories/1060921573

[Niall Dollard]

He wants to buy Greenland now....

https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-eyes-a-new-real-estate-purchase-greenland-11565904223

[vox_mundi]

Workers Had 3 Options: Attend Trump's Speech, Use Paid Time Off or Receive No Pay
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/08/17/politics/workers-trump-speech-attend-pto-no-pay/index.html

Workers at the Pennsylvania petrochemical plant where President Donald Trump spoke Tuesday were told that if they didn't attend the event, they either had to use paid time off or receive no pay for the day.

At least some of the workers who attended the speech were instructed not to protest the President, who told the crowd of workers at the Royal Dutch Shell plant he would be imploring their union leaders to support his reelection.

The instructions to the workers came in a memo, a copy of which was obtained by CNN's Polo Sandoval from a congressional source. That source was given the memo by a person in Beaver County, Pennsylvania -- the site of the plant.

The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, which first reported on the memo and the ultimatum to workers, reported one contractor forwarded the information to workers based on a memo Shell sent to union workers. Smith, the spokesman for Shell, said language in the memo relating to workers' conduct, such as not protesting, did not originate from language passed on by the company.

The Tuesday Trump speech was an official White House event -- not a speech sponsored by the reelection campaign. Trump told the audience at the plant Tuesday that they should oust their union leaders if they declined to support him.

"I'm going to speak to some of your union leaders to say, 'I hope you're going to support Trump.'  Okay?" Trump said.  "And if they don't, vote them the hell out of office because they're not doing their job. It's true. It's true. Vote them out of office."

[Niall Dollard]

Nail on head. A classic distraction.