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The Walrus

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Re: The Trump
« Reply #6800 on: November 03, 2024, 02:10:29 PM »
At times, gerrymandering is encouraged.  The concept of majority-minority districts was established to enable greater minority representation in Congress.  Without such a policy, minorities are under-represented because they cannot win enough districts to match their percentages.  The Maryland district, portrayed earlier, was not one them.  It was drawn by Democratic legislators to reduce Republican voters in the district.  It worked as Democrats unseated an 11-term Republican Congressman.  Gerrymandering has been used by each party to gain an advantage, and sometimes both in tandem to create “safe” districts for those already in power.  Drawing equitable districts depends on one’s own definition of equity.

The Walrus

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Re: The Trump
« Reply #6801 on: November 03, 2024, 03:49:27 PM »
Each state has one electoral vote for each representative in Congress (House and Senate).  In Nebraska and Maine, the electoral votes are awarded as follows: one to the winner of each  House Congressional district and two to the overall winner of the state (for each Senator).  For example, in 2020 Trump won of the three House districts in Nebraska and the overall state, so he received 4 electoral votes and Biden 1.  In Maine, they each won one House district and Biden won the overall state, so Biden received 3 EVs and Trump 1.

This would replace the current "swing states" with "swing districts".


Possibly.  But at least they would be scattered throughout the country, and with an equal number of votes, they would be equally important.

Rascal Dog

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Re: The Trump
« Reply #6802 on: November 03, 2024, 05:54:08 PM »
one to the winner of each  House Congressional district and two to the overall winner of the state

This would replace the current "swing states" with "swing districts".


Possibly.  But at least they would be scattered throughout the country, and with an equal number of votes, they would be equally important.

Possibly?

Why would any Presidential candidate campaign in districts they are likely to win? Or likely to lose?

Upstate Maine would get lots of visits. As would Colorado 8th and so on. Many States would get no visits, as all districts are solid one way or the other. The current list of swing States would remain of interest, due to the overall winner delegates. This is taking the Congressional polls, President would be at least somewhat different...





Rascal Dog

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Re: The Trump
« Reply #6803 on: November 03, 2024, 06:14:22 PM »
Drawing equitable districts depends on one’s own definition of equity.

Drawing unfair districts only depends on a desire for power. Which seems fairly universal,

One side effect of Gerrymandering is there would be few if any swing districts if all States were Gerrymandered. Compare California, with a non-partisan process with strict rules for setting districts, and has 5 swing districts, and Texas, with a very partisan process for setting districts and 0 (zero) swing districts.

kassy

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Re: The Trump
« Reply #6804 on: November 03, 2024, 07:37:28 PM »
You could also go with 1 person 1 vote but that is too democratic and the states won´t like it.
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

The Walrus

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Re: The Trump
« Reply #6805 on: November 03, 2024, 09:58:07 PM »
Much of this is fair criticism of the U.S. voting system.  But I ask most of our European contributors, how many of your prime ministers are elected by direct vote?

Rodius

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Re: The Trump
« Reply #6806 on: November 04, 2024, 02:09:18 AM »
You could also go with 1 person 1 vote but that is too democratic and the states won´t like it.

Even that approach completely ignores the needs of minority people.

The fairest way is to have a voting system that best reflects the mix of the population and forces those various groups to negotiate with each other to provide better policies and laws.

First past the post is a weak voting system, always has been.

interstitial

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Re: The Trump
« Reply #6807 on: November 04, 2024, 02:50:27 AM »
Drop the electoral college completely and give one person one vote. Swing states always get way more attention than they should while solid states get ignored completely.

be cause

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Re: The Trump
« Reply #6808 on: November 08, 2024, 01:01:08 PM »
well done Donald ! :)
We live in a Quantum universe . Do you live like you do ?

LeftyLarry

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Re: The Trump
« Reply #6809 on: November 09, 2024, 08:12:16 PM »
Drop the electoral college completely and give one person one vote. Swing states always get way more attention than they should while solid states get ignored completely.
The country changes, the South was once the bastion of the DEMOCRAT party, California was solid Republican.
The electoral college provides meaning for even small states at various different times in our history , gives them a voice , Whereas without the electoral college, NY and California type States where enormous amounts of people are living in big Cities would have ALL the say and all the rights.
A small size of land mass would determine how the 85% of the countries land masses people lived.
How does that makes any sense?
It’s the greatest system in history, checks &  balances  plus a constitution that protects all .
We just saw it in action, fascinating.
One side thought its control of the press and pop culture, along with its control of education was all it needed ,  weaponizing the DOJ, LAWFARE ,  was the cherry on top , to win ANY election and consolidate its hold on the people , however, the American electorate was not fooled and voted its own self interest .
What a Great country!

Rodius

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Re: The Trump
« Reply #6810 on: November 10, 2024, 01:21:08 AM »
Drop the electoral college completely and give one person one vote. Swing states always get way more attention than they should while solid states get ignored completely.
The country changes, the South was once the bastion of the DEMOCRAT party, California was solid Republican.
The electoral college provides meaning for even small states at various different times in our history , gives them a voice , Whereas without the electoral college, NY and California type States where enormous amounts of people are living in big Cities would have ALL the say and all the rights.
A small size of land mass would determine how the 85% of the countries land masses people lived.
How does that makes any sense?
It’s the greatest system in history, checks &  balances  plus a constitution that protects all .
We just saw it in action, fascinating.
One side thought its control of the press and pop culture, along with its control of education was all it needed ,  weaponizing the DOJ, LAWFARE ,  was the cherry on top , to win ANY election and consolidate its hold on the people , however, the American electorate was not fooled and voted its own self interest .
What a Great country!

This is funny.

Democracy by first past the post voting means the majority gets the biggest say and the US promotes this as wonderful... yet, you say that if first past the post was the method forward, the masses would get to decide who leads the country which is, according to you, a bad thing.

Which is it?

Do the majority make the decision or is the system gamed to stop that from happening?

etienne

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Re: The Trump
« Reply #6811 on: November 10, 2024, 08:22:47 AM »
[...]

This is funny.

Democracy by first past the post voting means the majority gets the biggest say and the US promotes this as wonderful... yet, you say that if first past the post was the method forward, the masses would get to decide who leads the country which is, according to you, a bad thing.

Which is it?

Do the majority make the decision or is the system gamed to stop that from happening?

I know it is childish to quote Hannah Arendt in this context,  but other people would say that children are the only ones not worried when telling the truth.
Quote
To this aversion of the intellectual elite for official historiography, to its conviction that history, rigged in any case, could without harm become the playground of the enlightened, it is appropriate to add this terrible and demoralizing fascination: enormous lies, monstrous untruths, can ultimately be posed as incontestable facts, man can be free to change the past at will, and the difference between truth and lies can cease to be objective and become a simple matter of power and cunning, of pressure and infinite repetition.

Maybe I should publish this quote in the Forum Decorum thread to describe what I feel about the evolution of the Politics part of this forum.

LeftyLarry

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Re: The Trump
« Reply #6812 on: November 11, 2024, 05:41:36 AM »
Drop the electoral college completely and give one person one vote. Swing states always get way more attention than they should while solid states get ignored completely.
The country changes, the South was once the bastion of the DEMOCRAT party, California was solid Republican.
The electoral college provides meaning for even small states at various different times in our history , gives them a voice , Whereas without the electoral college, NY and California type States where enormous amounts of people are living in big Cities would have ALL the say and all the rights.
A small size of land mass would determine how the 85% of the countries land masses people lived.
How does that makes any sense?
It’s the greatest system in history, checks &  balances  plus a constitution that protects all .
We just saw it in action, fascinating.
One side thought its control of the press and pop culture, along with its control of education was all it needed ,  weaponizing the DOJ, LAWFARE ,  was the cherry on top , to win ANY election and consolidate its hold on the people , however, the American electorate was not fooled and voted its own self interest .
What a Great country!

This is funny.

Democracy by first past the post voting means the majority gets the biggest say and the US promotes this as wonderful... yet, you say that if first past the post was the method forward, the masses would get to decide who leads the country which is, according to you, a bad thing.

Which is it?

Do the majority make the decision or is the system gamed to stop that from happening?

Of course the Majority, by definition, makes most of the decisions,the system was set up so the minority would also have some rights.

Have something to negotiate with.

The system was set up for the Majority not to be totally tyrannical towards the minority, be it , the right or the Left.

One senator , when it’s 51-49 can therefore gain huge advantage for his State on certain votes, no matter how small a State , Congress is set up by districts, once again giving minorities on every side of the spectrum some say in government, some power and then, if a President oversteps , like Biden tried often tried to, we have a Supreme  court protecting the Constitution and keeping Presidents, who represent the majority ( usually) from becoming overly oppressive to everyone else.

 So, you can argue, we have little progress and little change from Administration to administration a dI would argue that’s a good thing, especially when  the country for a long time now has been divided on a 50/50 basis.
This is exactly what the founding fathers had in mind .



The Walrus

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Re: The Trump
« Reply #6813 on: November 11, 2024, 01:27:22 PM »
The majority, indirectly, make the decisions.  That is why the U.S. is called republic, not a democracy.  Representatives are elected by majority vote, and they make the decisions.  Early in the process, minorities had virtually no say, as they had difficulty mustering a majority in any district.  While many despise gerrymandering, when done for political self-gain, it has been an effective tool in increasing minority representation.

The courts were devised to protect the rights of all, and prevent suppression of the minority by the majority.  Is this system perfect?  Far from it.  Popularity is still a big driving force in elections, and can lead to leader like Trump being elected.

LeftyLarry

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Re: The Trump
« Reply #6814 on: November 11, 2024, 09:10:30 PM »
The majority, indirectly, make the decisions.  That is why the U.S. is called republic, not a democracy.  Representatives are elected by majority vote, and they make the decisions.  Early in the process, minorities had virtually no say, as they had difficulty mustering a majority in any district.  While many despise gerrymandering, when done for political self-gain, it has been an effective tool in increasing minority representation.

The courts were devised to protect the rights of all, and prevent suppression of the minority by the majority.  Is this system perfect?  Far from it.  Popularity is still a big driving force in elections, and can lead to leader like Trump being elected.

Why wouldn’t popularity be a big driving force ?

You are popular, usually, based on your viewpoints , your platform.
They tried to make Kamala popular based on personality and look how that worked for them.

Rodius

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Re: The Trump
« Reply #6815 on: November 12, 2024, 01:26:50 AM »
The majority, indirectly, make the decisions.  That is why the U.S. is called republic, not a democracy.  Representatives are elected by majority vote, and they make the decisions.  Early in the process, minorities had virtually no say, as they had difficulty mustering a majority in any district.  While many despise gerrymandering, when done for political self-gain, it has been an effective tool in increasing minority representation.

The courts were devised to protect the rights of all, and prevent suppression of the minority by the majority.  Is this system perfect?  Far from it.  Popularity is still a big driving force in elections, and can lead to leader like Trump being elected.

Why wouldn’t popularity be a big driving force ?

You are popular, usually, based on your viewpoints , your platform.
They tried to make Kamala popular based on personality and look how that worked for them.

First past the post, or the ineffective system the US uses, only allows the people in power to maintain that power more easily.

Majority vote is weak because it is easier to manipulate, and reduces the need to negotiate with smaller groups that could improve how the country works.

Popularity is how it works in the US.... Trump, for some fucked up reason, is more popular than Kamala and he won with the backing of billionaires who spent their money promoting the popularity of Trump and he won.

And now the US has a fucking idiot leading it, which makes a lotof sense given how stupid political manipulation has become in the US.

AND NOW the rest of the world has to deal with whatever shit the US doesn't on the global stage, but the people in the US don't care about that, and why would they, they truly believe they are the good guys.

The US is not led by people who work for the masses, they have people who win the popularity contest every 4 years and then consolidate the wealth and power even more.

Eventually, the growing shitstorm the US is becoming will explode within the US and around the world... all because the voting system makes it easy to keep the two parties in power and the lobbyists just make the rules regardless of who wins the election.

LeftyLarry

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Re: The Trump
« Reply #6816 on: November 12, 2024, 08:06:33 PM »
The majority, indirectly, make the decisions.  That is why the U.S. is called republic, not a democracy.  Representatives are elected by majority vote, and they make the decisions.  Early in the process, minorities had virtually no say, as they had difficulty mustering a majority in any district.  While many despise gerrymandering, when done for political self-gain, it has been an effective tool in increasing minority representation.

The courts were devised to protect the rights of all, and prevent suppression of the minority by the majority.  Is this system perfect?  Far from it.  Popularity is still a big driving force in elections, and can lead to leader like Trump being elected.

Why wouldn’t popularity be a big driving force ?

You are popular, usually, based on your viewpoints , your platform.
They tried to make Kamala popular based on personality and look how that worked for them.

""""""First past the post, or the ineffective system the US uses, only allows the people in power to maintain that power more easily."""""

IF THAT IS TRUE WHY DO WE CONTINUALLY HAVE BOTH LEFTWING AND RIGHTWING PRESIDENTS AND CONGRESS SHIFTS ALSO?

Majority vote is weak because it is easier to manipulate, and reduces the need to negotiate with smaller groups that could improve how the country works.

WHICH IS WHY WE HAVE THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE AND BOTH THE SENATE AND THE HOUSE.

Popularity is how it works in the US.... Trump, for some fucked up reason, is more popular than Kamala and he won with the backing of billionaires who spent their money promoting the popularity of Trump and he won.

THE POPULARITY IS BASED ON POLITCAL POSITION.

TRUMP IS POPULAR BECAUSE HE SPEAKS TO THE PEOPLE NOW DISENFRANCHISED IN THE U.S., WHITE MEN, BLACK & HISPANIC WORKING MEN AND WOMEN WHO THINK IT HAS GONE TO FAR TO THE LEFT WITH THE WOKE NONSENSE.

And now the US has a fucking idiot leading it, which makes a lot of sense given how stupid political manipulation has become in the US.

THE MANIPIULATION IS ALWAYS BY THE LEFT WHO CONTROLS MOST OF THE PRESS, POP CULTURE AND THE EDUCATION SYSTEM, TRUMP RAN AGAINST THEM.

AND NOW the rest of the world has to deal with whatever shit the US doesn't on the global stage, but the people in the US don't care about that, and why would they, they truly believe they are the good guys.

BECAUSE WE ARE THE GOOD GUYS AND ALWAYS HAVE BEEN, IF WE WEREN'T WE'D JUST COME OVER THERE AND KICK YOUR ASSES AND INSTEAD WE DON'T , WE LET YOU ABUSE US VERBALLY, ECONOMICALLY, MILITARILY BY FORCING US TO PROTECT YOU, YOU TALK DOWN TO US , ANYTHING THAT MAKES YOU HAPPY, WE STILL BUY YOUR PRODUCTS AND VISIT YOUR COUNTRIES , LEAVING OUR MUCH NEEDED MONEY BEHIND, HELL, WHEN THE CHINESE VISIT YOUR COUNTRIES, THEY PRETTY MUCH DO IT OFF THE MONEY THEY EARN IN THE U.S.

The US is not led by people who work for the masses, they have people who win the popularity contest every 4 years and then consolidate the wealth and power even more.

WHAT POWER DID THE CLINTONS HAVE WHEN THEY ENTERED THE WHITE HOUSE? HE WAS BASICALLY A BROKE, LEFTIST REDNECK FROM ARKANSAS, HOW ABOUT OBAMA, JUST A CLOWN FROM CHICAGO, TRUMP WASN'T EVEN IN POLITICS, HE'S THE ONLY ONE WHO CARES ABOUT AMERICA AND ITS PEOPLE, HE WAS RICH, RISKS EVERYTHING AND HE CONTINUES.

Eventually, the growing shitstorm the US is becoming will explode within the US and around the world... all because the voting system makes it easy to keep the two parties in power and the lobbyists just make the rules regardless of who wins the election.

I BELIEVE A THIRD PARTY MIGHT BE ABLE TO MAKE HEADWAY NOW, IT WOULD BE WITH CENTRIST DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS LEADING IT, TRUTH IS THATS WHAT TRUMP DID.
HE GOT RID OF THE BUSH/KOCH/CHENEY/ROMNEY/ RINO WING OF THE PARTY AND GRABBED ENOUGH CENTER DEMOCRATS FROM THE ELECTORATE TO WIN THE ELECTION.
THIS IS NOT THE OLD REPUBLCIAN PARTY.



« Last Edit: November 13, 2024, 12:18:44 AM by LeftyLarry »