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Poll

Who are you going to vote for?

Clinton
31 (70.5%)
Johnson
2 (4.5%)
Stein
6 (13.6%)
Trump
1 (2.3%)
Not going to vote / going to spoil ballot
4 (9.1%)

Total Members Voted: 43

Voting closed: November 26, 2016, 07:11:49 AM

Author Topic: The Trump Presidency  (Read 663915 times)

Sleepy

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #500 on: November 11, 2016, 07:09:56 AM »
No, too litte snow for headlong dives, but I had some snow-showers while anger managing my 1982 Ariens ST 1136 on Wednesday. The snow will be gone next week when we return to our regular westerlies here. All will melt away.

I don't think it is much irony (my post above was, obviously), money leads the way = BAU. It's the same as here.

Am I the only one who's been thinking about the 2000 election with Bush and Gore and how that ended?

Paddy

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #501 on: November 11, 2016, 07:14:31 AM »
I think protesting right after the conclusion of a fair election smells of sour grapes. Protesting after Trump takes office and has shown how he will govern will have a much stronger and lasting impact than protesting now.

Picture Clinton having won under similar circumstances as Trump. Wouldn't we tend to discount Trump's protesters as malcontents?

Indeed. We have to try to plan for what's coming up, not just vent our spleens about what's already happened.

And Sleepy, no, you weren't the only one.

Pmt111500

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #502 on: November 11, 2016, 08:06:49 AM »
Suggestion for a new thread:
America - The Empire strikes back!

The great dear leader of the worlds greatest hypocrisy (*Finland* just lost that title...) must of course have a great and grand project, as all great dear leaders do. So what will it be?

 <clip>

Everything is awesome!!


I'd say they start with getting China, India and a few other biggest emitters out of the paris accord. Then they'll level the Appalachians to direct Atlantic hurricanes to midwest to alleviate drought and make south florida, cascadia and california de-join the union to get the next elections. That a plan??

Everything is awesome here too!!
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 08:12:38 AM by Pmt111500 »
Cooling the outside by heat pump.

Sleepy

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #503 on: November 11, 2016, 08:28:01 AM »
There's no way to tell what will happen. How can anyone plan for that? What one can say, no matter who won, is that in the US the number of votes matters less than where those votes are cast.

If Trump sticks to his words he will pull out of the 1992 agreement, then withdraw from the Paris agreement after one year. As the 1992 agreement was/is an international treaty, the president does not have to consult with the Senate before withdrawing. Remember that scentence from Paris?

oren

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #504 on: November 11, 2016, 09:07:13 AM »
The only hope with Trump is that he will not be able to fulfill his plans because of his personality. But unfortunately bad things come more easily than good things. I don't have much hope.
BTW, protesting is idiotic in my opinion, he was elected lawfully according to the voting system, end of story. This is what the country "wanted". Had Hillary won by such a margin, no one here would think to question her victory. The whole democratic system is broken in the age of "reality" shows and widespread ignorance and mis-education, but that's a whole different issue.
Buddy regarding your notes on economic growth and unemployment, I think that from the point of view of the typical citizen the economy is not so great as the numbers may claim, hence the social anger that brought Trump along.

Csnavywx

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #505 on: November 11, 2016, 09:30:54 AM »
Careful there, he's made a ton of fools (including me) out of people underestimating him so far.

Sleepy

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #506 on: November 11, 2016, 09:37:13 AM »
Certainly.
https://www.ft.com/content/3c9487f0-a74f-11e6-8b69-02899e8bd9d1
And:
Quote
Bookmakers have already started taking bets on the 2020 election. Mr Trump is the current favourite at 5/4

Edit; Not sure if that link is readable, here's the story on Paddy Power in the Guardian:
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/nov/09/paddy-power-4m-bill-donald-trump-us-election-republican-victory
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 10:10:52 AM by Sleepy »

Pmt111500

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #507 on: November 11, 2016, 09:58:21 AM »
Anyway he can't do anything reeaally bad without republican support from senate, house, and supreme court so we're all safe...hmm? ooops...wait.
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Sleepy

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #508 on: November 11, 2016, 11:00:55 AM »
A small reminder.

Sleepy

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #509 on: November 11, 2016, 11:42:55 AM »
Guess I've been to busy the last two days; Michael Moore has a plan and a to do list:
https://www.facebook.com/mmflint/posts/10153913074756857
Quote
Morning After To-Do List:
1. Take over the Democratic Party and return it to the people. They have failed us miserably.
2. Fire all pundits, predictors, pollsters and anyone else in the media who had a narrative they wouldn't let go of and refused to listen to or acknowledge what was really going on. Those same bloviators will now tell us we must "heal the divide" and "come together." They will pull more hooey like that out of their ass in the days to come. Turn them off.
3. Any Democratic member of Congress who didn't wake up this morning ready to fight, resist and obstruct in the way Republicans did against President Obama every day for eight full years must step out of the way and let those of us who know the score lead the way in stopping the meanness and the madness that's about to begin.
4. Everyone must stop saying they are "stunned" and "shocked". What you mean to say is that you were in a bubble and weren't paying attention to your fellow Americans and their despair. YEARS of being neglected by both parties, the anger and the need for revenge against the system only grew. Along came a TV star they liked whose plan was to destroy both parties and tell them all "You're fired!" Trump's victory is no surprise. He was never a joke. Treating him as one only strengthened him. He is both a creature and a creation of the media and the media will never own that.
5. You must say this sentence to everyone you meet today: "HILLARY CLINTON WON THE POPULAR VOTE!" The MAJORITY of our fellow Americans preferred Hillary Clinton over Donald Trump. Period. Fact. If you woke up this morning thinking you live in an effed-up country, you don't. The majority of your fellow Americans wanted Hillary, not Trump. The only reason he's president is because of an arcane, insane 18th-century idea called the Electoral College. Until we change that, we'll continue to have presidents we didn't elect and didn't want. You live in a country where a majority of its citizens have said they believe there's climate change, they believe women should be paid the same as men, they want a debt-free college education, they don't want us invading countries, they want a raise in the minimum wage and they want a single-payer true universal health care system. None of that has changed. We live in a country where the majority agree with the "liberal" position. We just lack the liberal leadership to make that happen (see: #1 above).

Let's try to get this all done by noon today.
-- Michael Moore

And:
https://www.facebook.com/mmflint/posts/10153915876426857
Quote
Day Two's To-Do List:
1. Must quickly and decisively form an opposition movement, the likes of which hasn't been seen since the 1960s. I will do my part to help lead this as I'm sure many others (Bernie, Elizabeth Warren, MoveOn, the hip-hop community, DFA, etc.) will, too. The core of this opposition force will be fueled by young people who, as with Occupy Wall Street and Black Lives Matter, don't tolerate b.s. and are relentless in their resistance to authority. They have no interest in compromising with racists and misogynists.

2. Prepare to impeach Trump. Just as the Republicans were already planning to do with President Hillary from Day One, we must organize the apparatus that will bring charges against him when he violates his oath and breaks the law -- and then we must remove him from office.

3. Must commit right now to a vigorous fight (including civil disobedience, if necessary) which will block any and all Donald Trump Supreme Court nominees who do not meet our approval. We demand the Democrats in the Senate aggressively filibuster any nominees who support Citizens United or who oppose the rights of women, immigrants and the poor. This is non-negotiable.

4. Demand the DNC apologize to Bernie Sanders for trying to fix the primaries against him, for spinning the press to ignore his historic campaign, for giving Clinton the questions in advance at the Flint debate, for its latent ageism and anti-Semism in trying to turn voters against him because of his age or religious beliefs, and for its anti-democracy system of "superdelegates" who are elected by no one. We all know now had Bernie been given a fair shot, he probably would have been the nominee and he -- as the true outsider and "change" candidate --would have inspired and fired up the base and soundly defeated Donald Trump. If no apology is soon forthcoming from the DNC, that's ok -- when we take over the Democratic Party (see yesterday's To-Do List, #1), we will issue the apology in person.

5. Demand that President Obama establish a Special Prosecutor to investigate who and what was behind FBI Director James Comey's illegal interference into the Presidential election 11 days before the vote was held.

6. Begin a national push while it's fresh in everyone's mind for a constitutional amendment to fix our broken electoral system: 1. Eliminate the Electoral College -- popular vote only. 2. Paper ballots only -- no electronic voting. 3. Election Day must be made a holiday for all -- or held on a weekend so more people vote. 4. All citizens, regardless of any run-ins with the criminal "justice" system, must have the right to vote. (In swing states like Florida and Virginia, 30-40% of all Black men are prohibited by law from voting.)

7. Convince President Obama to immediately do what he should have done a year ago: Send in the Army Corps of Engineers to Flint to dig up and replace all the poisoned pipes. NOTHING HAS CHANGED; the water in Flint is still unusable.

Will try to get these done by sundown. More To-Do tomorrow...
--Michael Moore

Buddy

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #510 on: November 11, 2016, 01:16:56 PM »
Living in Georgia has been interesting.  Probably a lot like going back to the 1960's or something.  I used to live in Oregon....WHEN IT WAS REPUBLICAN.  Oregon was ALWAYS "progressive".  Not in the political sense....but in the EXECUTIONAL sense.  They would execute policy's that were FORWARD LOOKING....and good for the state....even when they were Republican.

Here in Georgia.....WOW....what a difference.  Whatever you do....DON'T look forward.  And it is a hotbed of Trumpism....and global warming denial.  So what is now happening in Georgia....IN NOVEMBER:

http://www.11alive.com/news/local/wildfire-spreads-10000-acres-in-n-georgia/350760895

Our neighborhood is in an HOA....and we have a private facebook page....so I have to be "non political" when I post to that page.  Yesterday I posted about all the wildfires in North Carolina and southeastern Tennessee.  Now today...posted about the article noting the Georgia wildfires.....and a post script of "anyone that wants to learn more about global warming knows where to reach me").  I'll see if there are any takers.....I doubt it.  Ten or 15 years from now when there home is burning down maybe they will think:  Hmmmmm......that dude may be on to something.  Our neighborhood is "Trump central"...  I actually get a kick out of some of it.  It's always better to be on the side WITH FACTS....even if there are way more people on the other side.

FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Buddy

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #511 on: November 11, 2016, 01:28:57 PM »
Update to my post about the HOA above.

I posted an informational link to an article about the wildfires in Georgia with a map.  In a sentence at the bottom....I stated the following:

"This is not August or September.  This is November.  Anyone wanting to know more about global warming, knows how to reach me."

Well.....I guess that was just TOO CONTROVERSIAL for the gestapo....they cut off my internet access to the Cherokee Reserve Facebook group.  I'll be looking for KKK burned into my yard sometime next week :)   Bring it on guys.....nobody ever said this was going to be easy.....
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DrTskoul

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #512 on: November 11, 2016, 01:35:48 PM »
Update to my post about the HOA above.

I posted an informational link to an article about the wildfires in Georgia with a map.  In a sentence at the bottom....I stated the following:

"This is not August or September.  This is November.  Anyone wanting to know more about global warming, knows how to reach me."

Well.....I guess that was just TOO CONTROVERSIAL for the gestapo....they cut off my internet access to the Cherokee Reserve Facebook group.  I'll be looking for KKK burned into my yard sometime next week :)   Bring it on guys.....nobody ever said this was going to be easy.....

Keep up the good fight Buddy!!!   Trying to develop energy and fertilizer production options that are scalable and ultra low carbon footprint, until renewable sources start to make a real dent.

Buddy

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #513 on: November 11, 2016, 01:59:08 PM »
Quote
Keep up the good fight Buddy!!!   Trying to develop energy and fertilizer production options that are scalable and ultra low carbon footprint, until renewable sources start to make a real dent.

I'll be finishing a "Cherokee Reserve:  Global Warming" facebook page sometime today or tomorrow.  It will be PUBLIC....but of course it will contain the name Cherokee Reserve so anyone from our neighborhood will likely stumble upon it from time-to-time.

The truth NEVER GOES AWAY.  It just sits there in wait.....for everyone to discover it. ;)
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TerryM

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #514 on: November 11, 2016, 02:18:38 PM »
Am I the only one who's been thinking about the 2000 election with Bush and Gore and how that ended?


No.




Tor Bejnar

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #515 on: November 11, 2016, 02:20:50 PM »
Buddy,
I think you got banned, not because of your acknowledging GW, but because of the Duck you proudly display on these threads.  You really must become a Cherokee High Warriors fan, I do believe.  Hey, they're having a winning season, and have a play-off game this evening.  Busy?

[Disclaimer:  Before my internet search (map of your locale, etc.), I'd never heard of Canton's Cherokee Warriors.]

All politics is local politics!
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Tor Bejnar

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #516 on: November 11, 2016, 02:31:36 PM »
There is an interesting table at http://www.electoral-vote.com/ (11/11/16) that shows both 2012 and 2016 votes cast, by state and candidate.  Of the 6 states that Trump won that Obama won in 2012, only Florida had more Democrats voting this year than in 2012.  (Trump votes went up more, obviously.)  In the other 5 states, if Democratic votes had matched 2012 votes, Clinton would have won all 5 of them, even though Trump votes exceeded 2012 numbers in those states.

Interesting that Trump received fewer votes, over all, than Romney did!

Basically, Democrats didn't vote this year.
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Buddy

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #517 on: November 11, 2016, 03:04:15 PM »
Quote
Basically, Democrats didn't vote this year.

Fascinating chart.  You think the voters in Washington state were turned off this year?  Yikkkkessss.

It was a message and strategy from Trump from the very beginning, to get out the "racist white vote"....and he succeeded in that.

Keep in mind....that he got slightly less than 25% of the registered voters (slightly less than 50% of ACTUAL voters).  Of that 25% of registered voters he got.....some % of those are the "racist deplorable's".  So let's guess high...and say it is half of them.  So 12.5% of the registered voters are the "deplorable's" that will love any racist themes that Trump will initiate.

What I think Trump has underestimated.....and that many people underestimate.....is the passion of the NONDEPLORABLES.  Even some of those that didn't vote.

That is why I was NEVER worried about what would happen if Clinton won.....there might be some small areas (especially in the south....like my neighborhood ;)) where there would be some protesting.  But I think we're just at the very beginning of what may end up to be "Viet Nam War type protests" that grow MUCH....MUCH...bigger in scope over the coming months/years.  You will see LARGE.....LARGE...protests about climate change in coming months and years.  I won't be surprised....but I think many will be.

Because MOST of the people in the US....are NOT RACIST PIGS that love violence (right....Chasing Ice ;))......and an ever increasing portion of the US wants to do something about global warming...
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 04:36:32 PM by Buddy »
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budmantis

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #518 on: November 11, 2016, 03:12:00 PM »
Sleepy:

With regards to Michael Moore's to do lists, I disagree with point 5 (morning after to do list). I agree only in part with points 2 and 3 (day two to do list).

I like Michael Moore and I think he's substantially right in what he is saying. What I'm concerned with is an overreaction. I also think it's important that we let Trump and the Republicans make some mistakes (which is inevitable). IMHO that will be the best time to hit back HARD.

I don't like the electoral college either, but it is the law of the land and the results of this election have to be respected.  That said, a repeal (which is highly unlikely) would be a good thing.


Buddy

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #519 on: November 11, 2016, 03:26:13 PM »
Here is some information regarding "recording laws" (voice as well as video).  Looking DOWN THE ROAD....you just need to be prepared, and understand what is LEGAL in your state.

This is a "better safe than sorry".....and "forward looking just in case"....type of information.

For me....in my apparently bigoted neighborhood....I will always make sure I have my Iphone with me, charged, and quickly able to record any conversations that I am a party to (Georgia is a "one party consent" state....as long as YOU are a party to the conversation, you can record it WITHOUT the consent of the other person).

Again...these are the types of things that hopefully won't be needed.  But....better safe than sorry.   And...."plan for the worst and hope for the best."

http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/georgia-recording-law
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Sleepy

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #520 on: November 11, 2016, 04:57:06 PM »
Sleepy:

With regards to Michael Moore's to do lists, I disagree with point 5 (morning after to do list). I agree only in part with points 2 and 3 (day two to do list).

I like Michael Moore and I think he's substantially right in what he is saying. What I'm concerned with is an overreaction. I also think it's important that we let Trump and the Republicans make some mistakes (which is inevitable). IMHO that will be the best time to hit back HARD.

I don't like the electoral college either, but it is the law of the land and the results of this election have to be respected.  That said, a repeal (which is highly unlikely) would be a good thing.
Ok, I'll try to describe why I disagree. There's a real danger with not reacting.
I think Tor's post above partly confirms point 5 (pointing back to No1). "Democrats didn't vote this year."
That's miserable.

Our politicians, also Swedes in general, had more or less the same attitude towards our populistic party and "mini-Trump" earlier, but ignoring them and waiting to see them fail was probably the worst mistake they could do. They got stronger. They don't care about their own failures. That attitude allowed them to do the same thing as Buddys comment above, "It was a message and strategy from Trump from the very beginning, to get out the "racist white vote"....and he succeeded in that." They have also been hugely active through the internet here, spreading nonsense, more so than anyone else.

The only site I've been banned from was managed by racists (it was a tech site, not about politics...). Deniers share the same mentality, often I've found out by following some aliases online, that they are the same. These people work by actively stirring up emotions, ignoring facts/rules and downplaying the "system" and using terms like PC-mafia (politcal correctness).

Waiting for the best time to get back, will never come. It's here now. Go get them.

I've seen Americans annoyed with Moore, here he wouldn't be much of a rebel, if that's what he's percieved as in the US. The US is tilted so far to the right that you don't even have a socialist party.

But my primary concern is climate change. We are already too late. We don't have the time.
It simply sucks to see a denier elected as the next POTUS.

This is not only about the US, I would definately sign this:
https://www.change.org/p/electoral-college-electors-electoral-college-make-hillary-clinton-president-on-december-19
Edit; corrected the URL that got messed up.

Buddy

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #521 on: November 11, 2016, 05:26:33 PM »
Quote
Waiting for the best time to get back, will never come. It's here now. Go get them.

ABSOLUTELY AGREE. What more do you need to see or hear.


Quote
But my primary concern is climate change. We are already too late. We don't have the time. It simply sucks to see a denier elected as the next POTUS.

We've been out of time for a while.  Wildfires in Georgia...IN MID NOVEMBER.  Three years ago, wildfires on the Oregon Coast IN JANUARY.  You NEVER get wildfires on the Oregon coast during the winter. Forty years ago YOU COULDN'T LIGHT A FIRE ON THE OREGON COAST IN JANUARY.

Quote
This is not only about the US

We're ALL on the same ship.  Different parts of the same ship.  And it is "taking on water QUICKLY."  And now someone wants to punch another hole in the ship....
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budmantis

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #522 on: November 11, 2016, 05:54:43 PM »
I'm probably in the minority here on this point, but I believe we have to honor the results of the election. Trump will be inaugurated on January 20, a little over two months from now. Sure the racist white vote went to Trump, but a high percentage of the white vote without a four year college degree put Trump over the top. Did they make a mistake voting for Trump? You bet they did! They just don't know it yet. In order for these folk to change their position, they will have to see how a Trump presidency will fail, and they are obviously in for a big disappointment.

I respect everyone's opinion here on this thread and my own opinion isn't far removed from the general consensus here. I could very well be wrong and if I am, I'll certainly own up to it. All I'm saying is let's wait until Trump takes office before launching a full offensive.

On the bright side, my wife and I have moved to an RV park here in Zephyrhills, FL where there are a lot of Canadians here for the winter. The park we previously lived in was mostly for Trump. In getting acquainted with my new neighbors, they were kind enough to offer me their condolences over the recent election. It was much appreciated.

Buddy

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #523 on: November 11, 2016, 06:06:47 PM »
Quote
I'm probably in the minority here on this point, but I believe we have to honor the results of the election. Trump will be inaugurated on January 20, a little over two months from now. Sure the racist white vote went to Trump, but a high percentage of the white vote without a four year college degree put Trump over the top. Did they make a mistake voting for Trump? You bet they did! They just don't know it yet. In order for these folk to change their position, they will have to see how a Trump presidency will fail, and they are obviously in for a big disappointment.

This is an issue....global warming......that has been brewing for about 7,000 years on a SMALL BASIS.....200 years on a larger basis........30 years on a steeper basis still.....and 3 years STEEPER THAN THATThere is NO WAITING.  This is NOT a "wait and see moment."  He will appoint a climate denier to head the EPA.....and the head of an oil and gas company to head the department of energy.  WE ALREADY KNOW WHO'S PULLING THE SWITCH ON THE ELECTRIC CHAIR......AND WE'RE WALKING OVER TO THE ROOM.....NOW IS NOT THE TIME TO WAIT.

Quote
I respect everyone's opinion here on this thread and my own opinion isn't far removed from the general consensus here. I could very well be wrong and if I am, I'll certainly own up to it.


So after they pull the switch you'll admit you were wrong.  Boy....that's awfully big of you.

I see a 50 foot wave coming at us......I think we should wait, it might not make it all the way in.  If I'm wrong.....I'll say I was wrong.  Of course....we'll be dead.  But I'll say I was wrong.  You see how SILLY THAT ARGUMENT IS.  HE IS GOING TO PULL THE FRIGGING SWITCH. 


Quote
All I'm saying is let's wait until Trump takes office before launching a full offensive./quote]

NO....SEE ABOVE.
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

magnamentis

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #524 on: November 11, 2016, 07:40:45 PM »
No, too litte snow for headlong dives, but I had some snow-showers while anger managing my 1982 Ariens ST 1136 on Wednesday. The snow will be gone next week when we return to our regular westerlies here. All will melt away.

I don't think it is much irony (my post above was, obviously), money leads the way = BAU. It's the same as here.

Am I the only one who's been thinking about the 2000 election with Bush and Gore and how that ended?

if you look further up i mentioned that twice :-) hence you're not the only one and BTW she got more popular votes which again hints at what one of the major problems in that system is.

he won his states by a small margin while she won hers by huge margins. those electoral votes are for decades something i'm complaining about but as it seems there is no way. again we have a presdent who rules against the majority of people in a country, not totally the only case but then there is a reason why other countries don't copy the only really working democracy in the world ( by no means perfect but functioning ) that is switzerland. it means less power to the political class and that the people are the souvereign and not a party or a person or the politicians.

interesting in this context are:

a) the ridiculous excuses not to copy that

b) the openly uttered opinions that the people are too stupid to make the right decisions
while the opposite is proven fact.

budmantis

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #525 on: November 11, 2016, 09:04:04 PM »
[


So after they pull the switch you'll admit you were wrong.  Boy....that's awfully big of you.

quote]

Not sure what you are implying here Buddy and I don't much like your tone. What we DONT need right now is a bunch of hotheads flying off the handle. If that's what you want, go for it! I've said all I'm going to say about this subject. I'm entitled to my opinion and you are entitled to yours. Let's leave it at that and avoid insults. After all, we are on the same side!

One thing further. What do you hope to accomplish before January 20, 2017? Are you seriously thinking that the electoral college will vote for Hillary instead of Trump? Get real!
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 09:09:31 PM by budmantis »

magnamentis

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #526 on: November 11, 2016, 09:10:46 PM »
[


So after they pull the switch you'll admit you were wrong.  Boy....that's awfully big of you.

quote]

Not sure what you are implying here Buddy and I don't much like your tone. What we DONT need right now is a bunch of hotheads flying off the handle. If that's what you want, go for it! I've said all I'm going to say about this subject. I'm entitled to my opinion and you are entitled to yours. Let's leave it at that and avoid insults. After all, we are on the same side!

i agree with your point of view for the following main reason:

"important is what they DO and not what they SAY, hence let's see what they do (he does) and judge thereafter. i understand and also agree that there is good reason to be worried but if it's not the time to wait, it's as well not the time to shoot full broad sides at someone, based on
electoral campaign speeches. if that would be true we would have to hang them all ( i said WOULD )
haha...

enjoy the discussion, i find it interesting as long as things don't get nasty and overheated. there is no point in that. once one side starts to loose temper it's best practice to opt out, not saying that i
have it always under control, just saying what "would be" best IMO.

cheers everyone, nice community
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 02:01:37 AM by magnamentis »

Sleepy

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #527 on: November 11, 2016, 09:17:31 PM »
@magnamentis; I've understood from the replies above that I'm not the only one but I had and still have not, read through all the comments. Life is interfering here. ;)
--
@Buddy and budmantis; add over a hundred years of science regarding climate change. All the way from Svante Arrhenius in 1896 up until the US military first encountered real world measurable problems with heat seeking missiles and CO2. That was in the 50's.


The 60's, 70's and 80's were happy days for me, had a friend that moved to Canada in the 80's. Why on earth Canada?? He answered; Oh, it's a lot better than the US and it's a bit more like home. I've been aware that we have the capability of destroying our civilisation since the early 90's, woke up for real in the early naughties, started expressing myself about about hitting the emergency brakes early this decade. The last three years have been distressing, then add Trump.

Which nation on this planet is the greatest ostrich now?
Richard Alley btw, is a republican, I wonder how he voted? A recent quote by him: "We either burn and then we learn or we learn while we burn."

I haven't much to be proud of since my life is a part of climate change, but as a foreigner looking in on the US, I don't have to honor the results of the US election. It's about honoring science and what has been known for many, many years. It's about honoring my kids, it's about honoring every other species on this planet, it's about honoring this spaceship we all call home.

Edit; before hitting the sack I'll just add this after reading sigmetnow's post:
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,438.msg93597.html#msg93597
Some are not waiting.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 09:37:40 PM by Sleepy »

sidd

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #528 on: November 11, 2016, 10:06:24 PM »
1) Ascribing the result to racism is not supported by the fact that the previous black president did much better in the midwestern white vote than his putative white successor.

2) Failure to recognize 1) will ensure future defeat for the Democratic party.

sidd



Buddy

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #529 on: November 11, 2016, 10:22:51 PM »
Quote
I haven't much to be proud of since my life is a part of climate change, but as a foreigner looking in on the US, I don't have to honor the results of the US election. It's about honoring science and what has been known for many, many years. It's about honoring my kids, it's about honoring every other species on this planet, it's about honoring this spaceship we all call home.

Well said.

1)  Budmantis:  What I meant.......is that Donald Trump has PROVEN himself to be (1) a serial liar (2) totally opposed to "green energy" (3) beholden to fossil fuel companies...including our dear friends in the coal business.

There is NO REASON TO WAIT until he takes office.  WE KNOW what he is going to do.  The thought that we should "give him a chance" is amazing to me.  If he was "on the fence"....that would be a very different matter.  He isn't.  The only fence he knows about is the one he wants to build with Mexico's money (lol).

2)  The time for softball is over.  The only reason the Viet Nam war ended.....is that it became so intolerable at home with millions of people demonstrating.  THAT is why the war ended when it did.

The only way that we are going to get SERIOUS about faster movement on global warming....is when people take to the streets in larger numbers to PEACEFULLLY demonstrate about it....and begin to hold their Congressmen accountable.  Otherwise....the Congress will just keep collecting their pay from fossil fuel companies and continuing their lies to the American people.

Donald Trump IS NOT MY PRESIDENT.  He embodies NOTHING that I stand for.  NOTHING.  I will do everything I can WITHIN a legal framework to push change on global warming.....and to push those politicians who oppose that change.....out.





FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

AbruptSLR

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #530 on: November 11, 2016, 11:08:51 PM »
1) Ascribing the result to racism is not supported by the fact that the previous black president did much better in the midwestern white vote than his putative white successor.

2) Failure to recognize 1) will ensure future defeat for the Democratic party.

sidd

The second article at the link is entitled: "The Five Baskets of Trump Voters - The deplorables make up only one basket. If Democrats dismiss the other four, they’ll keep losing elections."


http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/11/more_democrats_should_be_talking_like_harry_reid_right_now.html


"When we talk about Trump’s voters, we’re really talking about five baskets. The first basket is the deplorables: people who love to hate. These are the folks who paint swastikas and write racial slurs on Twitter. The second basket is people who liked Trump’s vilification of immigrants or agreed with him that Clinton didn’t “look like a president.” They’re easily manipulated. The third basket is people who don’t see racism or sexism anywhere. The fourth basket is people who don’t think it’s a big deal. They shrug off Trump’s taped comments about grabbing women as “locker room talk.” And the fifth basket is people who were genuinely troubled by the way Trump treated women, or the way he talked about a Mexican American judge or the mother of a Muslim American soldier, but who voted for him anyway, or stayed home, because they couldn’t stand Clinton.

Everything Clinton talked about in the first paragraph of her “deplorables” speech—racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, Islamaphobia—is real. Trump exploited these prejudices, and I spent most of the election writing about them. As a country, we have a lot of work to do on them. But they can’t be the central message of the Democratic Party. And they can’t be the guiding explanation of why we lost.

That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t talk about race, gender, religion, or homophobia. We should. But we’ve just seen, in the cruelest way, that these issues aren’t enough. Even when the Republican nominee exploits bigotry of all kinds, and even when his opponent would be the first woman president, they aren’t enough. Too many voters—white, male, Christian, or otherwise—don’t care enough about those issues. We can’t afford to lose all these people. We certainly can’t afford to alienate them."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

magnamentis

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #531 on: November 11, 2016, 11:31:00 PM »
1) Ascribing the result to racism is not supported by the fact that the previous black president did much better in the midwestern white vote than his putative white successor.

2) Failure to recognize 1) will ensure future defeat for the Democratic party.

sidd

The second article at the link is entitled: "The Five Baskets of Trump Voters - The deplorables make up only one basket. If Democrats dismiss the other four, they’ll keep losing elections."


http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/11/more_democrats_should_be_talking_like_harry_reid_right_now.html


"When we talk about Trump’s voters, we’re really talking about five baskets. The first basket is the deplorables: people who love to hate. These are the folks who paint swastikas and write racial slurs on Twitter. The second basket is people who liked Trump’s vilification of immigrants or agreed with him that Clinton didn’t “look like a president.” They’re easily manipulated. The third basket is people who don’t see racism or sexism anywhere. The fourth basket is people who don’t think it’s a big deal. They shrug off Trump’s taped comments about grabbing women as “locker room talk.” And the fifth basket is people who were genuinely troubled by the way Trump treated women, or the way he talked about a Mexican American judge or the mother of a Muslim American soldier, but who voted for him anyway, or stayed home, because they couldn’t stand Clinton.

Everything Clinton talked about in the first paragraph of her “deplorables” speech—racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, Islamaphobia—is real. Trump exploited these prejudices, and I spent most of the election writing about them. As a country, we have a lot of work to do on them. But they can’t be the central message of the Democratic Party. And they can’t be the guiding explanation of why we lost.

That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t talk about race, gender, religion, or homophobia. We should. But we’ve just seen, in the cruelest way, that these issues aren’t enough. Even when the Republican nominee exploits bigotry of all kinds, and even when his opponent would be the first woman president, they aren’t enough. Too many voters—white, male, Christian, or otherwise—don’t care enough about those issues. We can’t afford to lose all these people. We certainly can’t afford to alienate them."

perfect, thanks

budmantis

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #532 on: November 11, 2016, 11:46:33 PM »
perfect, thanks

Ditto. Sidd and ASLR thanks for doing a better job than I at explaining my point.

Magnamentis: Thanks for your comment #525. "Blessed are the peacemakers".

Sleepy and Buddy: I cant fault anyone for following their conscience. For myself, my conscience says to wait until 1/20/17 and that is what I will do.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 01:46:49 AM by budmantis »

budmantis

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #533 on: November 12, 2016, 01:50:22 AM »
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/gop-obamacare-rift-231272

"GOP feuds over how to kill Obamacare".

As expected, we're already seeing fault lines form within the Republican leadership.

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #534 on: November 12, 2016, 01:53:50 AM »
Needs a large basket for "economically screwed."

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #535 on: November 12, 2016, 02:20:21 AM »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/11/11/prediction-professor-who-called-trumps-big-win-also-made-another-forecast-trump-will-be-impeached/

I find this VERY PLAUSIBLE.  Remember....we're dealing with someone in Trump, who's ego is WAY WAY out over the tips of his ski's.

FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #536 on: November 12, 2016, 02:35:27 AM »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/11/11/prediction-professor-who-called-trumps-big-win-also-made-another-forecast-trump-will-be-impeached/

I find this VERY PLAUSIBLE.  Remember....we're dealing with someone in Trump, who's ego is WAY WAY out over the tips of his ski's.

While I agree that Trump will likely commit many impeachable acts; I am less certain that the US Congress will have the spine to impeach him.
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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #537 on: November 12, 2016, 04:49:09 AM »
Thanks Tor Bejnar for the numbers on this. Now we can at least calculate how many of each state are to blame for this.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 04:58:45 AM by Pmt111500 »
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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #538 on: November 12, 2016, 05:46:39 AM »
So what happens if Trump comes out tomorrow and says that climate change is real? Wouldn't that be something?

I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #539 on: November 12, 2016, 05:54:16 AM »
Myron Ebell could happen. I wouldn't be surprised, if he did that, republicans might find a way to impeach him.
Cooling the outside by heat pump.

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #540 on: November 12, 2016, 07:02:55 AM »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/11/11/prediction-professor-who-called-trumps-big-win-also-made-another-forecast-trump-will-be-impeached/

I find this VERY PLAUSIBLE.  Remember....we're dealing with someone in Trump, who's ego is WAY WAY out over the tips of his ski's.

I've read this article. Prof. Allan Lichtman doesn't think much of your man Nate Silver, Buddy. In the article he says "For all his acclaim Nate Silver is only a clerk, not a scientific analyst." That sounds like a hell of a putdown!

I doubt a Republican controlled Congress would impeach a Republican president, unless the acts were particularly egregious. With Trump, that is entirely possible however Lichtman's assertion seems too Machiavellian. The Republicans would pay a heavy price in any case.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 07:14:38 AM by budmantis »

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #541 on: November 12, 2016, 07:12:55 AM »
So what happens if Trump comes out tomorrow and says that climate change is real? Wouldn't that be something?

Trump is smart enough to understand that always aligning himself with the Republicans may not be in his best interest. I think he will and may already be doing some triangulation, playing one party against the other. He may be a lot of things, but he's not stupid. (Umm, except for those late night Twitter rants, that is!).

Could he change his mind on climate change? Stay tuned.

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #542 on: November 12, 2016, 07:22:28 AM »
So what happens if Trump comes out tomorrow and says that climate change is real? Wouldn't that be something?
Anything can happen, he can tell someone that they are great and the next second the oppsite, expect the unexpected. Either people think he's brilliant or a psychopath. Both are true.

I think I understand that, thanks to a "friend" that I've known for 44 years now. He does the same, he can make people feel like they're the center of the universe, the next second he can stab them. Then for the really fun part, he can talk about why he stabbed you and explain that it is for a greater cause. That cause is always to his own benefit. He's three years younger than Trump. He has been the same for all of those years I've known him.

Sleepy

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #543 on: November 12, 2016, 08:28:11 AM »
Planet Earth Is The Real Loser Of The US Elections
http://www.desmogblog.com/2016/11/09/planet-earth-real-loser-us-elections
Quote
During the U.S. presidential debates, there was not one single question devoted to the topic of climate change. And it appears that the results from the election have only amplified the silence that Americans seem to have on the subject of the environment.
Reminds me of Sweden.

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #544 on: November 12, 2016, 02:05:53 PM »
In my town there were just over 2000 votes cast, the break down was about 60/40 in favor of trump.  As many of us were casting votes against trump, many of the trump voters were in fact voting against Hillary not for trump.  I know liberals won't want to hear this, but there is one driving force, and that's guns.

Guns, guns, guns, that's what these folks are obsessed with, and that's how they vote. Period.  Democrats need to give up the gun control stuff if they want "blue collar whites" back.  It really as simply as that.  I work with so many people, who I feel are woefully uninformed, but aren't bad people, they are just scared, very scared about their guns being taken.  I don't get it as I have no gun, and don't lock my house, letting my dogs watch things.

But they are just so paranoid, they really believe everyone is out to get their shit.  They are always on edge, worry about everything, and blame the world for their problems.  But like I said, it's cause they are scared, and not about the effects of climate change.  However, giving up the gun thing can help win sportsmen over. 

I really believe that care enough about the environment that they would be open to accepting the realities of climate change.

But there are so many single issue voters, and the gun thing really drew them to the polls.  I witnessed it first hand.

Sorry to feel that way, I would certainly like to see less assault weapons out there, but if fighting that fight means losing the presidency to someone like trump, I throw up the white flag.

Time to cut the losses, and begin trying to bring those people into the fold.
"To defy the laws of tradition, is a crusade only of the brave" - Les Claypool

Buddy

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #545 on: November 12, 2016, 02:20:14 PM »
Quote
But there are so many single issue voters, and the gun thing really drew them to the polls.  I witnessed it first hand.

Sorry to feel that way, I would certainly like to see less assault weapons out there, but if fighting that fight means losing the presidency to someone like trump, I throw up the white flag.

Time to cut the losses, and begin trying to bring those people into the fold.

I think you're right as well.  It is irrational.....but I think that is what people think.  Incredible to me...but they have been brainwashed.....and perception is reality.
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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #546 on: November 12, 2016, 02:45:34 PM »
I think there is a GREATER than 50/50 chance that Trump doesn't make it past 2 years:

1)  His cabinet....and the people around him are "D league"....not "A team."  Gingrich, Christie, Kudlow, Guiliani, Jeff Sessions (F), etc.  In order to have a good team....whether it is in sports, business, or government.....YOU HAVE TO HAVE GOOD PLAYERS.  And good players don't AUTOMATICALLY assure your success....BUT...they are a PREREQUISTE to having success.  He will not attract good players.  And of course....he is not "draining the swamp".....he's "hiring the swamp."

2)  If his business is so successful....who in the world can 3 or 4 of their top lieutenants (children) be so involved?  The answer is....his business is NOT so successful.  It never has been.  His business will continue to falter in coming months and years.  His business is in trouble.  His brand COTINUES to take a beating.  I'm afraid the white non-educated voters in the rust belt aren't his business customers.

3)  Tax Returns:  That issue is NOT going to go away.  The press will start to hound him about it in another 2 or 3 months.  They will NOT let it go.  And his 2015 return is NOT under audit...and the press will NOT let it go.  He will try to drag it out as long as he can...but he will NEVER SHOW HIS RETURNS.

4)  He has NOT made any friends in the press.  If he continues to push on the issue of the press....they will start to smell blood and go after him.  The "Washington Press Corps Dinner" next year....will be like a funeral.  THAT....will be interesting.

5)  Russian involvement:  That issue isn't over yet I'm afraid.  If it turns out the Trump campaign was working with Russian sources to get information....that WILL BE A BIG ISSUE.  If breaking into the Democratic Headquarters as the Nixon administration did for Tricky Dick.....what would helping the Russian government dig into Democratic servers be?  Think about that one for a minute......

6)  There are a LOT of pissed off Democrats that will be looking for some hide.  There are also a lot of REPUBLICANS that aren't particularly enamored with him as well.  If he starts to "screw the pooch" regarding policy....or other things....they will drop him like a hot potato if the political winds are blowing against him.

7)  Climate change.  Oh yes.  This one isn't going away.  And I am afraid Trump has himself in a pickle here.   He has the big money backing from fossil fuel companies.  If he continues on his path to (a) do away with the EPA or at least significantly decrease their clout, and (b) has an oil and gas guy as his energy secretary.........there will be hell to pay with demonstrations.  MARK MY WORD.  Here we are in a La Nina....and temperatures are STILL HOT.  There will be a continual stream of bad news on this front.

On the other hand....if backs away from his oil and gas buddies....then the Republicans in Congress will HATE THAT.  He is in a no win situation.

By the way.....we have a "Trump Moon" this Monday.  Flooding in southern Florida is supposed to be significant due to a King Tide.  Perfect timing.

Trump's biggest problem is his ego.  And it will be his downfall.  We're only 3 days after the election....and fissures are already starting.  Watching his cabinet come together will be enlightening.
 
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 04:14:36 PM by Buddy »
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Sleepy

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #547 on: November 12, 2016, 04:08:53 PM »
Bill Maher. :)

budmantis

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #548 on: November 12, 2016, 04:34:39 PM »

Time to cut the losses, and begin trying to bring those people into the fold.

Well said and I completely agree.

budmantis

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #549 on: November 12, 2016, 04:49:41 PM »
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/11/the-black-swan-president-214450

""Donald Trump is the biggest unknown ever to take control of the White House. What's the worst case scenario? The best? As the country waits to find out, Politico Magazine asked seventeen experts to game out a Trump presidency."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-reich/why-we-need-a-new-democratic-party_b_12920342.html?section=us_politics

This article by Robert Reich provides a great deal of perspective and insight into why the election was won by Trump, and why the Democratic party must change.