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Who are you going to vote for?

Clinton
31 (70.5%)
Johnson
2 (4.5%)
Stein
6 (13.6%)
Trump
1 (2.3%)
Not going to vote / going to spoil ballot
4 (9.1%)

Total Members Voted: 43

Voting closed: November 26, 2016, 07:11:49 AM

Author Topic: The Trump Presidency  (Read 631011 times)

solartim27

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #550 on: November 12, 2016, 05:05:53 PM »
In my town there were just over 2000 votes cast, the break down was about 60/40 in favor of trump.  As many of us were casting votes against trump, many of the trump voters were in fact voting against Hillary not for trump.  I know liberals won't want to hear this, but there is one driving force, and that's guns.

Guns, guns, guns, that's what these folks are obsessed with, and that's how they vote. Period.  Democrats need to give up the gun control stuff if they want "blue collar whites" back.  It really as simply as that. 
If closing the gunshow loophole is possible in Nevada, then there is still hope for common sense to rule the day.
https://ballotpedia.org/Nevada_Background_Checks_for_Gun_Purchases,_Question_1_(2016)
FNORD

AbruptSLR

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #551 on: November 12, 2016, 05:29:30 PM »
Now that Hillary is toast, can you feel the Bern?

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/bernie-sanders-empire-strikes-back-231259

Extract: "Supporters of Bernie Sanders' failed presidential bid are seizing on Democratic disarray at the national level to launch a wave of challenges to Democratic Party leaders in the states."

See also the article entitled: "What’s next for Democrats? For starters, a battle for the soul of the party."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/whats-next-for-democrats-for-starters-a-battle-for-the-soul-of-the-party/2016/11/12/33521d9a-a841-11e6-8fc0-7be8f848c492_story.html

Extract: "Amid the wreckage of Hillary Clinton’s loss, Democrats have started jockeying for control of the national party — and vigorously debating a dramatic course correction in response to Donald Trump’s election.

The upcoming choice of a new Democratic National Committee chairman could become an early proxy fight between the establishment wing of the party, embodied by Clinton, and its more liberal members, many of them aligned with Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.), the party’s runner-up in the Democratic primaries.

Sanders and other liberal lawmakers and advocacy groups argue that the DNC needs to be reimagined as less of an insider’s club focused on raising money and more of an advocate for the working-class voters won over Tuesday by the Republican nominee."

&

http://www.npr.org/2016/11/12/501704004/after-trump-victory-many-bernie-sanders-supporters-say-i-told-you-so

Extract: "As America continues to absorb the results of a truly contentious and historic presidential election, one group of voters may be particularly upset: Bernie Sanders supporters. For months over the course of the campaign, many in Sanders' ranks said he was the only candidate with a sure shot at beating Trump, that he could reach working class voters better than Hillary Clinton could, and that he offered a true progressive agenda that Clinton could not."
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 05:45:24 PM by AbruptSLR »
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JayW

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #552 on: November 12, 2016, 05:47:36 PM »
In my town there were just over 2000 votes cast, the break down was about 60/40 in favor of trump.  As many of us were casting votes against trump, many of the trump voters were in fact voting against Hillary not for trump.  I know liberals won't want to hear this, but there is one driving force, and that's guns.

Guns, guns, guns, that's what these folks are obsessed with, and that's how they vote. Period.  Democrats need to give up the gun control stuff if they want "blue collar whites" back.  It really as simply as that. 
If closing the gunshow loophole is possible in Nevada, then there is still hope for common sense to rule the day.
https://ballotpedia.org/Nevada_Background_Checks_for_Gun_Purchases,_Question_1_(2016)

A simular referendum failed in my state (Maine), and in my opinion, played a significant role in trump taking one of Maine's electoral votes.

I suspect Nevada has a demographic that's trending more urban, democrats are losing all the rural areas, and I feel that that's the price for the gun control legislation.  That's to high a price to pay when we end up with Sarah Palin as someone who could head the department of the interior, a frightening scenario.

I'm a single issue voter, climate and environment, it's not worth it to me to get these gun control measures passed when I see it alienating so many people around me.  Maine is one of the few rural states that is still blue, but it won't be for long, I know the democrats don't care about our 4 votes, but that's why they are in the place they are in now...

Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Ohio, all turning red.

It's not worth it.
"To defy the laws of tradition, is a crusade only of the brave" - Les Claypool

AbruptSLR

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #553 on: November 12, 2016, 06:23:59 PM »
Paul Krugman offers some comments on the fight ahead in the linked article entitled: "Thoughts for the Horrified":

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/11/opinion/thoughts-for-the-horrified.html?smid=tw-nytopinion&smtyp=cur&_r=0

Extract: "So what do we do now? By “we” I mean all those left, center and even right who saw Donald Trump as the worst man ever to run for president and assumed that a strong majority of our fellow citizens would agree.
I’m not talking about rethinking political strategy. There will be a time for that — God knows it’s clear that almost everyone on the center-left, myself included, was clueless about what actually works in persuading voters. For now, however, I’m talking about personal attitude and behavior in the face of this terrible shock.
First of all, remember that elections determine who gets the power, not who offers the truth. The Trump campaign was unprecedented in its dishonesty; the fact that the lies didn’t exact a political price, that they even resonated with a large bloc of voters, doesn’t make them any less false. No, our inner cities aren’t war zones with record crime. No, we aren’t the highest-taxed nation in the world. No, climate change isn’t a hoax promoted by the Chinese.
So if you’re tempted to concede that the alt-right’s vision of the world might have some truth to it, don’t. Lies are lies, no matter how much power backs them up.

Americans, no matter how secular, tend to think of themselves as citizens of a nation with a special divine providence, one that may take wrong turns but always finds its way back, one in which justice always prevails in the end.
Yet it doesn’t have to be true. Maybe the historic channels of reform — speech and writing that changes minds, political activism that eventually changes who has power — are no longer effective. Maybe America isn’t special, it’s just another republic that had its day, but is in the process of devolving into a corrupt nation ruled by strongmen.
But I’m not ready to accept that this is inevitable — because accepting it as inevitable would become a self-fulfilling prophecy. The road back to what America should be is going to be longer and harder than any of us expected, and we might not make it. But we have to try."

Note: I added the emphasis in the last two lines.
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

Sleepy

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #554 on: November 12, 2016, 06:31:17 PM »
You surely have a different nation over there.

Here we go then:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/12/donald-trump-appears-to-soften-stance-on-range-of-pledges
I'm not surprised:
Quote
He told 60 Minutes the call in which Clinton conceded the election was “lovely”, adding: “It was a tough call for her, I can imagine ... She couldn’t have been nicer. She just said ‘congratulations Donald, well done’.”

“She’s very strong and very smart,” he said, adding that Bill Clinton had also called. “He couldn’t have been more gracious. He said it was an amazing run. One of the most amazing he had ever seen,” Trump said of the former president.

Another expected comment and a nice bunch including Steve Bannon:
Quote
Asked whether the tone of his campaign had gone too far, he said: “No. I won.”

The vice president-elect, Mike Pence, will play a key role in his administration, serving as a liaison with Congress, Trump said. On Friday Trump put Pence in charge of his transition team, while his daughter, Ivanka, her husband, Jared Kushner, and his sons Eric and Donald Jr joined the executive committee. The PayPal co-founder Peter Thiel and Stephen Bannon, the former chairman of Breitbart News who directed Trump’s campaign, are also on the committee.

And this reality:
Quote
Jean-Claude Juncker, the president of the European commission, said Trump needed to learn “what Europe is and how it works.”

“I think we will waste two years before Mr Trump tours the world he does not know,” he said.

Good Night.

mati

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and so it goes

Buddy

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #556 on: November 12, 2016, 08:22:26 PM »
http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Crowds-Fill-MacArthur-Park-for-Anti-Trump-March-Through-DTLA-400938496.html

The thousands in LA will turn into tens of thousands within 6 months.  Will turn into hundreds of thousands before a year is up IF Trump continues on an "alt right" path.

I actually don't want Obama to "pre pardon" Clinton.  First....I don't think there is any reason to.  Second....if Trump and Guilianni want to try her....that would be like pulling the pin on a hand grenade and holding onto it.

Again....Trump has the ego of a Stalin....and the will and ignorance to use it.  Shall be interesting times....

FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

AbruptSLR

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #557 on: November 12, 2016, 08:34:29 PM »
If we take Donald J. Trump as the Game of Thrones' Night's King, then per the linked Mother Jones article about Trump's Cabinet, it looks like Newt Gingrich may be the "Hand of the King". That winter is coming might indicate that either misfired geoengineering and/or a nuclear winter is coming:

The linked article is entitled: "Trump's Cabinet Is Going to Be as Bonkers as You Thought – Buckle Up"

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/10/what-donald-trumps-cabinet-might-look-like

Extract: "After Mike Pence was picked for the veep spot, Gingrich commented, "I said I want to be the senior planner for the entire federal government, and I want a letter from you that says Newt Gingrich is authorized to go to any program in any department, examine it, and report directly to the president." In other words, he wants to be—in Game of Thrones parlance—the Hand of the King. Maybe that's because Gingrich, with his decades of outlandish remarks, controversies, and scandals, might not want to go through what could be a bruising confirmation process.
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― Leon C. Megginson

charles_oil

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #558 on: November 12, 2016, 08:45:20 PM »
Bizarre that he has already drifted to a modified Obamacare idea - wonder how long that will last.  Maybe all his promises are built of sand and closer inspection will show them up as silly / expensive / wrong - then he just adjusts reality again ! 

Perhaps "Trumpcare" won't have quite the right connotations.....

Buddy

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #559 on: November 12, 2016, 09:10:03 PM »
I wonder why Trump never quoted from Galatians 6:7?  And his surrogates on ESPN that always wear their crosses.....they never quoted it either.  I wonder why?

Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. Whatever a man sows, he will reap in return.  8The one who sows to please his flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction...
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 09:43:03 PM by Buddy »
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Buddy

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #560 on: November 12, 2016, 09:13:18 PM »
Quote
Trump is smart enough to understand that always aligning himself with the Republicans may not be in his best interest. I think he will and may already be doing some triangulation, playing one party against the other. He may be a lot of things, but he's not stupid. (Umm, except for those late night Twitter rants, that is!).

Trump may have some intelligence (book smarts)...but not as much as you people might think.  And there is a world of difference between INTELLIGENCE and WISDOM.  He definitely got shorted on wisdom....and we will see that play out.


FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Buddy

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #561 on: November 12, 2016, 09:19:11 PM »
Quote
One thing further. What do you hope to accomplish before January 20, 2017? Are you seriously thinking that the electoral college will vote for Hillary instead of Trump? Get real!

Two things:

1)  I NEVER said ANYTHING about the electoral college.  The electoral college IS the system...and it should be followed.  You certainly weren't talking to me on that one.

2)  I'm a big "momentum" guy.  There is NO REASON to wait and start AFTER January 20th.  Momentum starts NOW.  It has started in LA....it has started  in Berlin...it has started in Portland, Oregon.  It will CONTINUE as Trump rolls out his plans.  If anyone likes Roger Stone, Newt Gingrich, Rudy Guilliani, Larry Kudlow, and the rest of the band of liars......they will love what he rolls out.  I prefer not to wait.  As he rolls things out....I will protest.

Can't wait till he try's to pull layer back the 1st amendment.  That will be received well.

The way to deal with a bully is NOT TO WAIT.  It is to hit him in the chops.....
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 09:44:42 PM by Buddy »
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Buddy

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #562 on: November 12, 2016, 09:28:25 PM »
By the way Budmantis....RE:  Nate Silver

1)  I agree with the article that says that Nate is noting more than a "statistical" guy.  I think Nate would AGREE WITH THAT.  He is ONLY as good as the polls are.  Again....he would agree with that.  He is NOT...and has never been....a tarot card reader with psychic abilities.  All he does is aggregate polls.....and make an adjustment for (1) previous bias and (2) current economic conditions.

The morning of election day HE POINTED OUT that Donald Trump had a chance....just not a statistically good chance.  Again....Nate would likely be the first to agree that IF/WHEN the "polls get it wrong" (in any direction).....he will too....because he aggregates them.

The guy from Huffington Post that gave him grief Tuesday morning because he wasn't calling the race MORE FOR CLINTON....is obviously eating a healthy dose of crow.  Haven't heard from him again.

And again....note that Clinton was about 120,000 votes DIVIDED BY 3 states....from the election.  This was a CLOSE election.

All Nate is....regarding the elections....is "an aggregator" of polls.  I have never said anything else....and I think he would agree with that (with the 2 caveats above).

The two polls that did get it right...or at least came closest....were IBD and the USC/LA Times poll.  What is interesting about the USC poll....is that it was VERY CONSTANT for the last 6 months.  Interesting I thought....

FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Sigmetnow

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #563 on: November 12, 2016, 09:47:57 PM »
And this reality:
Quote
Jean-Claude Juncker, the president of the European commission, said Trump needed to learn “what Europe is and how it works.”

“I think we will waste two years before Mr Trump tours the world he does not know,” he said.

Here's an interesting interpretation of that initial Obama/Trump meeting at the White House:

http://valadilenne.tumblr.com/post/153048664118/ive-been-thinking-a-lot-about-the-meeting-between

I imagine his eyes widened considerably.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 10:00:56 PM by Sigmetnow »
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Buddy

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #564 on: November 12, 2016, 10:46:51 PM »
Instead of waiting till January 20th, 2016.....maybe give him a few more years..... ;)

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-looking-fast-ways-quit-global-climate-deal-1818
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

magnamentis

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #565 on: November 12, 2016, 10:55:05 PM »
And this reality:
Quote
Jean-Claude Juncker, the president of the European commission, said Trump needed to learn “what Europe is and how it works.”

“I think we will waste two years before Mr Trump tours the world he does not know,” he said.

Here's an interesting interpretation of that initial Obama/Trump meeting at the White House:

http://valadilenne.tumblr.com/post/153048664118/ive-been-thinking-a-lot-about-the-meeting-between

I imagine his eyes widened considerably.

hoho... that's such a great read, made my day (next to other things LOL)

BTW, too many capital and bold letters in this thread, i dunno about others but in case of seeing such things repeatedly i just jump over those posts. i know that's not welcome to mention but then
i always hope that it makes people reconsider. cheers

Buddy

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #566 on: November 12, 2016, 11:02:04 PM »
Quote
BTW, too many capital and bold letters in this thread, i dunno about others but in case of seeing such things repeatedly i just jump over those posts. i know that's not welcome to mention but then

i always hope that it makes people reconsider. cheers

I don't mean for this to be a snide remark...but there IS a reason there is a bold and a CAPS.   Otherwise....why wouldn't they leave them off the computers?  They are used for emphasis.  Just a thought... 
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 11:09:15 PM by Buddy »
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

budmantis

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #567 on: November 12, 2016, 11:21:17 PM »
Quote
BTW, too many capital and bold letters in this thread, i dunno about others but in case of seeing such things repeatedly i just jump over those posts. i know that's not welcome to mention but then

i always hope that it makes people reconsider. cheers

I don't mean for this to be a snide remark...but there IS a reason there is a bold and a CAPS.   Otherwise....why wouldn't they leave them off the computers?  They are used for emphasis.  Just a thought...

There is no need to use bold and caps like you do Buddy. People will read your posts regardless, that is if they are worth reading. I think Magnamentis has a valid point and perhaps you should spend more time listening rather than continuing your sometimes tiresome rants. I find I learn more from listening as opposed to talking, which is why my posts tend to be short.

« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 11:33:03 PM by budmantis »

Buddy

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #568 on: November 13, 2016, 12:25:41 AM »
Quote
I think Magnamentis has a valid point and perhaps you should spend more time listening rather than continuing your sometimes tiresome rants.

Budmantis.....you are the one that had to be convinced to NOT vote for Trump...remember?

"You can lead a horse to water...but you can't make him drink."  I guess you're not thirsty enough.  Although....by the time you are, the river will be dry.

Sounds like I have worn my welcome out.   So this will be my last post.  I know...THANK GOODNESS.

Good luck chaps.... ;)
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

oren

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #569 on: November 13, 2016, 12:39:41 AM »
Buddy, I enjoy reading you posts, please don't take it personally. You do tend to overuse the CAPS thing, it's a minor issue, I hope you do not disappear from the forum because of that.

budmantis

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #570 on: November 13, 2016, 06:56:36 AM »
Quote
I think Magnamentis has a valid point and perhaps you should spend more time listening rather than continuing your sometimes tiresome rants.

Budmantis.....you are the one that had to be convinced to NOT vote for Trump...remember?

"You can lead a horse to water...but you can't make him drink."  I guess you're not thirsty enough.  Although....by the time you are, the river will be dry.

Sounds like I have worn my welcome out.   So this will be my last post.  I know...THANK GOODNESS.

Good luck chaps.... ;)

I just want to say that I was never, ever going to vote for Trump. I want that to be clear. Just two or three days before the election, I was morally conflicted about voting for Clinton and I shared that with folks here at the forum. Because of Buddy and others, I was convinced to cast my vote for Clinton. After the election results became clear, I suggested we use caution in how to deal with Trump's victory. Buddy and I have been going back and forth the entire election season and I enjoyed the exchange with him and others very much. Over the past week the dialogue became heated and Buddy's comments really got under my skin. I try very hard to use tact and diplomacy in communicating here on the Forum as well as dealing with people in my life.

Unfortunately, I didn't live up that standard and now we may have lost a valuable contributor to the Forum. I'd like to join Oren in saying to Buddy that I'd like him to reconsider his decision to leave the Forum. I also want to apologize for the remarks I made that caused him to make that decision. Please reconsider Buddy.

budmantis

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #571 on: November 13, 2016, 07:30:47 AM »
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/hillary-clinton-popular-vote-victory_us_5827a2c5e4b02d21bbc91bbc

"Hillary Clinton's popular vote victory keeps growing."

"She is up by 1.8 million votes, with millions still being counted in California."

I was surprised to see Clinton's popular vote lead grow to 1.8 million votes. I was also under the impression that the vote count was finished within a day or two of the polls closing.

Sleepy

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #572 on: November 13, 2016, 07:38:09 AM »
The view from canada... it's basically racism

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/us-election/the-real-reason-donald-trump-got-elected-we-have-a-white-extremism-problem/article32817625/
It's a big part and not only the US. As I tried to express earlier, you can't ignore it, we already made that mistake here.

And this reality:
Quote
Jean-Claude Juncker, the president of the European commission, said Trump needed to learn “what Europe is and how it works.”

“I think we will waste two years before Mr Trump tours the world he does not know,” he said.

Here's an interesting interpretation of that initial Obama/Trump meeting at the White House:

http://valadilenne.tumblr.com/post/153048664118/ive-been-thinking-a-lot-about-the-meeting-between

I imagine his eyes widened considerably.
I believe that. :)
Reminds me of our populist leader here who had a burnout a while back. Reality is a tough place to face.

But more importantly, Obama didn't wait, there's no time to loose. Go get 'em!

in4apenny

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #573 on: November 13, 2016, 04:34:16 PM »
Got quite addicted to this thread although not from the US the topic is close to home.

I'm White, British, age 45+, low income, no college education & voted leave ( brexit), omg i must be racist.

Wrong.

The political elite/establishment & their followers  are quick to blame all but themselves for their failure to bring all citizens under their wing, this would mean some sacrifice & negotiation on their part which they seem unable to comprehend . The only argument/phrase/snide remark they seem to have is racist which is spouted at every opportunity to hide their own shortcomings with ideas to bring people together.

Back in sunny Blighty our schools are struggling to cope , the hospitals are at breaking point, the roads are buckling under the volume of traffic, we're building houses on greenbelt sites to keep up with population explosion & the air quality is plummeting etc,etc,, call me a racist but these are the issues that concern me.

i'll now get me coat ( for the brits :) )

« Last Edit: November 13, 2016, 05:43:58 PM by in4apenny »

TerryM

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #574 on: November 13, 2016, 06:42:15 PM »

Back in sunny Blighty our schools are struggling to cope , the hospitals are at breaking point, the roads are buckling under the volume of traffic, we're building houses on greenbelt sites to keep up with population explosion & the air quality is plummeting etc,etc,, call me a racist but these are the issues that concern me.


Build more hospitals, repair the roads, demand high density dwellings, and tighten regulations for air quality. Pay for it by ending subsidies for bad things, taxing those who can afford it, and utilizing all that cheap immigrant labor.




Solutions exist without xenophobic memes.
Terry


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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #575 on: November 13, 2016, 07:04:55 PM »

Back in sunny Blighty our schools are struggling to cope , the hospitals are at breaking point, the roads are buckling under the volume of traffic, we're building houses on greenbelt sites to keep up with population explosion & the air quality is plummeting etc,etc,, call me a racist but these are the issues that concern me.


Build more hospitals, repair the roads, demand high density dwellings, and tighten regulations for air quality. Pay for it by ending subsidies for bad things, taxing those who can afford it, and utilizing all that cheap immigrant labor.
Solutions exist without xenophobic memes.
Terry

By jove i think you've sorted it , will you be my MP.

All valid points & maybe one day we can look forward to a maximum density healthy population , breathing pure fresh air.

Oh, & the cheap immigrant labour where did you get that from? min wage + rights over here.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2016, 07:17:14 PM by in4apenny »

theoldinsane

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #576 on: November 13, 2016, 09:36:05 PM »
Quote
I think Magnamentis has a valid point and perhaps you should spend more time listening rather than continuing your sometimes tiresome rants.

Budmantis.....you are the one that had to be convinced to NOT vote for Trump...remember?

"You can lead a horse to water...but you can't make him drink."  I guess you're not thirsty enough.  Although....by the time you are, the river will be dry.

Sounds like I have worn my welcome out.   So this will be my last post.  I know...THANK GOODNESS.

Good luck chaps.... ;)

Please come back. I miss you.

TerryM

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #577 on: November 13, 2016, 10:04:16 PM »
In4


Point I was trying for was that exiting and longstanding trade alliances don't have much to do with how well schooling, hospitals, and roads are maintained, or even the state of air pollution.
All of these, too my eyes, are indicative of locales where government spending on infrastructure has, for one reason or another, proven inadequate.


The worst examples I've seen are in the American South West where a Wal-Mart has opened in a town 50 miles away. Soon local retail has closed up, their taxes gone, property values drop, infrastructure goes unrepaired, urban services are no longer affordable, and within a few decades a modern ghost town arises from the ashes of a viable community that might have flourished for a hundred years prior to Wal-Mart's move.


Here in Canada I've seen villages that became specialists in fine cuisine, high end clothing and accessories, winter sports or summer boating/canoeing. The taxes keep flowing, property values hold their own, and infrastructure improves. Wal-Mart is relatively new here and seems content to remain in fairly large communities.


If you aren't willing to pay enough taxes your community's quality of life will suffer. In general towns with increasing populace, having a broader base to tax, do better than towns that are stagnant or whose population is dropping. This downward spiral may prove difficult to halt.


Why wouldn't a region want additional taxpayers?
They will pay for better schools, hospitals and roads. They eventually increase the voting bloc and demand better services from regional and central government.


Terry

in4apenny

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #578 on: November 13, 2016, 10:34:14 PM »
In4


Point I was trying for was that exiting and longstanding trade alliances don't have much to do with how well schooling, hospitals, and roads are maintained, or even the state of air pollution.
All of these, too my eyes, are indicative of locales where government spending on infrastructure has, for one reason or another, proven inadequate.


The worst examples I've seen are in the American South West where a Wal-Mart has opened in a town 50 miles away. Soon local retail has closed up, their taxes gone, property values drop, infrastructure goes unrepaired, urban services are no longer affordable, and within a few decades a modern ghost town arises from the ashes of a viable community that might have flourished for a hundred years prior to Wal-Mart's move.


Here in Canada I've seen villages that became specialists in fine cuisine, high end clothing and accessories, winter sports or summer boating/canoeing. The taxes keep flowing, property values hold their own, and infrastructure improves. Wal-Mart is relatively new here and seems content to remain in fairly large communities.


If you aren't willing to pay enough taxes your community's quality of life will suffer. In general towns with increasing populace, having a broader base to tax, do better than towns that are stagnant or whose population is dropping. This downward spiral may prove difficult to halt.


Why wouldn't a region want additional taxpayers?
They will pay for better schools, hospitals and roads. They eventually increase the voting bloc and demand better services from regional and central government.


Terry

I'm not quite sure if our local govt is similar to your's , it seems their first & most important financial beneficiery is themselves

As for additional taxpayers money to overpopulate the community, NO i'd rather be poorer. It's an environmental thing.

I really don't count quality of life with money.

budmantis

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #579 on: November 15, 2016, 02:15:25 AM »
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/two-presidential-electors-to-colleagues-dump-trump/ar-AAkhZmV?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp

"Two Democratic members of the Electoral College have launched a campaign to keep President-elect Donald Trump from entering the White House, according to a new report."

Sleepy

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #580 on: November 15, 2016, 06:22:51 AM »

budmantis

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #581 on: November 15, 2016, 07:22:30 AM »
FYI Sleepy: I signed the petition.

budmantis

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #582 on: November 15, 2016, 07:38:23 AM »
I keep checking the list of user's online, hoping to see Buddy. I truly miss him, despite the bolds and caps!

Sleepy

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #583 on: November 15, 2016, 07:54:12 AM »
Good to hear budmantis, whatever the petition leads to, it's at least a protest.

No one's perfect, I know I'm not. It would be nice if we all could find ways to accept our differences and try to get along.

budmantis

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #584 on: November 15, 2016, 05:52:44 PM »
Good to hear budmantis, whatever the petition leads to, it's at least a protest.

No one's perfect, I know I'm not. It would be nice if we all could find ways to accept our differences and try to get along.

That would be nice. Maybe someday?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-electoral-college_us_582b103ce4b02d21bbca8624?afd1mjrn0bms7cik9

"Donald Trump won the Presidency but is still sore about the popular vote."

"Doesn't he have anything better to do right now?"

Could we see another Trump twitter rant?

budmantis

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #585 on: November 15, 2016, 06:59:37 PM »
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/%E2%80%98ape-in-heels%E2%80%99-wva-officials-under-fire-after-comments-about-michelle-obama/ar-AAki0ft?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp

"Ape in heels.": West Virginia officials under fire after comments about Michelle Obama.

We should be better people than this!

Sleepy

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #586 on: November 16, 2016, 12:01:21 PM »
Unfortunately I'm not surprised budmantis, it's similar to a lot of remarks from populists here. It's all of those litte comments that really unveils their true personality.

magnamentis

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #587 on: November 16, 2016, 05:35:45 PM »
Unfortunately I'm not surprised budmantis, it's similar to a lot of remarks from populists here. It's all of those litte comments that really unveils their true personality.

people are judged by so many flawed criteria but judging them by genetic origin ( i.e. skin color )
is that far of the mark or in other words so stupid, eventually fear and ego-based, that people with such an IQ should be exempt from voting like in some countries the criminals are.

not kidding, i mean it exactly like that.

on the other hand, since we are already at it, people with top 5% fortunes and in leading positions of top 5% enterprises should as well be exempt to vote and prohibited to contribute to campaign funding while campaigns should be exclusively funded 100% equally with tax money while of course the number of candidates would have to be restricted LOL else we would see too many.

the topic about restricting the right to vote is very complex and the above is just meant o hint at the idea and mentione 2 of the peak groups, there is much more to it and there are more such groups.

Sleepy

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #588 on: November 16, 2016, 09:40:56 PM »
There are a few democracies in this world. The US is not a good example as I see it. But I won't go further on that. When my brother died earlier this year, I had a moment when I thought that there are only two kinds of people, those who care and those who don't. And those two opposites can be the closest two siblings in one family while growing up, like myself an one of my sisters. I will probably never understand that and I don't know where to draw the line for those who should be allowed to vote or not, so my answer would be that everyone should have a vote.

Those who use their money without care for people or nature are the true predators on this planet.

Ah well, this poll is over so why not try a small summary?
One silent member got it right (maybe Michael Moore registered here? ;) ), the Simpsons got it right and also a monkey in China. The choice given was between Clinton, bananas or Trump:
http://www.euronews.com/2016/11/09/trump-the-monkey-was-right

I'm obviously lesser than a monkey and went bananas.
Let's hope the upcoming elections in Europe doesn't follow the US.

magnamentis

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #589 on: November 16, 2016, 10:26:46 PM »
There are a few democracies in this world. The US is not a good example as I see it. But I won't go further on that. When my brother died earlier this year, I had a moment when I thought that there are only two kinds of people, those who care and those who don't. And those two opposites can be the closest two siblings in one family while growing up, like myself an one of my sisters. I will probably never understand that and I don't know where to draw the line for those who should be allowed to vote or not, so my answer would be that everyone should have a vote.

Those who use their money without care for people or nature are the true predators on this planet.

Ah well, this poll is over so why not try a small summary?
One silent member got it right (maybe Michael Moore registered here? ;) ), the Simpsons got it right and also a monkey in China. The choice given was between Clinton, bananas or Trump:
http://www.euronews.com/2016/11/09/trump-the-monkey-was-right

I'm obviously lesser than a monkey and went bananas.
Let's hope the upcoming elections in Europe doesn't follow the US.

that everyone has a vote is a very valid possibility but then we have to face the fact that it obviously does not work well in the long run and start to ponder over alternatives while pondering does not mean that that has to change, could well be that there is simply no good way to draw the lines and hence it's  still better to remain safe and give everyone a vote. i personally believe that it would be possible to find those lines  but then the risk that the wrong people would define them for the wrong reasons and thus the shot would have a reverse effect is way higher than 60% IMO, a bit more pessimistic would be to call that close to 100% certain.

my post was simply meant to throw int the idea in a brainstorming manner because there will be and will have to be changes and the more ideas will be scrutinized and tested and be it only to be discardeed, the better.

budmantis

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #590 on: November 16, 2016, 10:53:55 PM »

Ah well, this poll is over so why not try a small summary?
One silent member got it right (maybe Michael Moore registered here? ;) ), the Simpsons got it right and also a monkey in China. The choice given was between Clinton, bananas or Trump:
http://www.euronews.com/2016/11/09/trump-the-monkey-was-right

I'm obviously lesser than a monkey and went bananas.
Let's hope the upcoming elections in Europe doesn't follow the US.

The monkey picked Trump because of his hair, which looks similar to the monkey's! The issue of who gets to vote can become a very slippery slope. Once you start disqualifying certain parts of the population, where do you draw the line? Thought provoking subject Magnamentis.

Sleepy

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #591 on: November 17, 2016, 05:52:03 AM »
I guess it takes a monkey to know one.  ;D

Apart from education, I think the real solution lies in equality (not just gender equalty). We are far from that in our societies. This is of course a rosy picture of Sweden but still, those ambitions should be world wide.
https://sweden.se/society/sweden-gender-equality/
We are still not there in Sweden, allthough the link and the attached numbers might look good.
America just took a step back, into the dark ages.

budmantis

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #592 on: November 17, 2016, 06:44:04 AM »

We are still not there in Sweden, allthough the link and the attached numbers might look good.
America just took a step back, into the dark ages.

Looking back to forty plus years ago (the 70's), I think we were closer then at least in some ways than we are now. I remember in Sweden in the '70's or early '80's you had a fairly liberal administration with Olaf Palme as prime minister.

Here in the U.S. I can remember feeling very optimistic about the future back in the '70's, but it seems we have gone in the reverse direction since the early 80's. Now look at us, it seems Americans have a pretty large chip on their shoulder and display a level of paranoia that I find disturbing. I think you're right Sleepy, we here are back in the dark ages it seems. I hope the same doesn't happen in Canada and Europe.

I've been giving a lot of thought to the discussions we've had on this thread, post election and I'm reconsidering my stated position of waiting until 1/20/17. Here's a BBC article about the Trump resistance movement. It appears to be gaining momentum.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38005262

Sleepy

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #593 on: November 17, 2016, 08:17:50 AM »
I think you are right, you are at least confirming some of my own memories from back then.
The US has been some sort of a role model for a lot of Swedes for too long. Those who still thinks so, are either predators or misguided. Climate change is not important right now. The upcoming elections in Europe will define our collective future. Imagine Le Pen in France? The EU might implode if that happens. What about mitigation, our collective civilisation and our kids future? We better start screaming and protesting right away.

I saw that about the removal of Trump's name from those buldings in New York yesterday. It's good. Many here in Europe whose parents experienced the buildup towards WW2, are maybe more worried about these signs of unrest, than people in the US?

Buddy

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #594 on: November 17, 2016, 01:21:24 PM »
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I've been giving a lot of thought to the discussions we've had on this thread, post election and I'm reconsidering my stated position of waiting until 1/20/17. Here's a BBC article about the Trump resistance movement. It appears to be gaining momentum.

So you're getting thirsty?  Is there a slight "dryness" in your mouth?  The "movement is just those that understand what Trump is doing...AND...what direction he is going.  It will continue to grow and there are 4 prongs to it right now:  (1)  anyone who is not lily white or not Christian (2) anyone concerned about global warming (I live in Georgia where we are having wildfires AT THE END OF NOVEMBER) (3) those that value freedom of speech and freedom of the press, and (4) women's concerns and issues....there is a "women's march" on January 21st in Washington DC.

Most of you already see it....and now Budmantis sees it....that Trump is going to continue to go "hard right" in his administration.  Of course....once anyone saw his choice for "Chief Strategist" in his cabinet (Steve Bannon...executive from Breitbart News)....people should have known.  If it looks like a rat...walks like a rat...and talks like a rat....ITS A RAT.

The next step....which he has already partially taken during his WHOLE campaign....is dealing with the press.  Look for him to continue to keep the REAL PRESS (anyone other than FOX) on "the outs."  You continue to see this even NOW....his tweets about the NY Times....and expect that to continue.  FOX will be his mouthpiece along with the New York Post.  Control the message is the mantra from within the Trump camp.

If you want to see what is really happening....I suggest you watch Rachael Maddow. Watch the following video clips to whet your taste buds (and make you thirsty):





The interesting thing that I am going to watch...is how the "central press" (NBC, ABC, CBS, and CNN......as opposed to the "left press of MSNBC" or the "right press of FOX") responds over the coming weeks.  How "aggressive" will they become in the coming days and weeks?  Will they hold his feet to the fire in their public questioning of him?

You have to understand that you have an EGOTISTICAL SOCIOPATH as a president.....who is surrounding himself with......a very UNTALENTED TEAM.....of which several are "unhinged authoritarians" (Guiliani.....Bannon....John Bolton, .etc.).  Trump will have a VERY UNQUALIFIED BENCH...and rumor has it he is looking at Governor Nikki Haley for Secretary of State.  Keep in mind that she turned down any consideration for the VP job.  And she is NOT qualified as the secretary of state....which shows just how weak the pool of talent is that Trump will used to fill his cabinet.

Trump will continue to say "everything is great with his team".....which is what he did during the campaign as well.  Even though it isn't.

In the US....it has always been THE PRESS that is the "guardian of freedom".  We'll see over the coming weeks and months if they are up to the task.  We will also see how some of the MODERATE REPUBLICANS respond.  Do they provide some "pushback" like Lindsay Graham...senator from South Carolina?  We'll see what kind of backbone those folks have (and there isn't very many of them).

The other thing to consider is that Trump did NOT win the popular vote (which still irks him)....and Clinton...when all the votes are finalized....will likely have beat him by 1.5 - 2.0 million votes.  So this election was NOT any mandate...he won by the skin of his teeth.

In addition to those that voted for Clinton, you have a lot of people now out there WISHING THEY WOULD HAVE VOTED AND FEELING PRETTY GUILTY ABOUT IT.  As well as those who voted....and over the coming months will not like the fact that they voted a "straight R" ticket on election day.

Keep your EYES OPEN....and if you know people who haven't seen the facts.....then show them the facts.  If you know people who watch FOX News, then you need to send them clips of what is actually happening.  This is going to get a lot uglier before it gets better.  A LOT UGLIER.


FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Buddy

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #595 on: November 17, 2016, 04:38:30 PM »
Another quick note.  Donald is already pushing on Saudi Arabia about he doesn't want any of their oil.  This will just be the first of MANY issues that Trump will step into QUICKLY....without thinking (remember:  Fire...Ready...Aim).

Related to this....ExxonMobile has "held in" a LOT longer than I thought it would.  It's absolute high for its stock was about $105 back in June of 2014.  I continue to see this as going lower over the intermediate term.  TOO MUCH OIL.  And now we have the largest oil discovery EVER in the US (in Texas just this week).  Add to that.....that the Saudi's will have to find a "home" for their oil exports....and you have the recipe for LOWER OIL PRICES.

Greed is a funny bedfellow....and he will turn on you quickly.  The oil and gas companies are going to have a LONG...LONG...trip down (yes...there will be counterrallys higher)....but the short term looks BAD....and the long term looks BAD.

Watch oil over the coming months.......I still expect it to reach the $60ish area....its just taken a lot longer than I thought.  Putin won't be enthralled if the price of oil were to head back into the $30's.....  Then we'll see how well Putin likes Comrade Trump.

Also note....Lindsay Graham wants to look into the "Russia DNC" issue and have senate hearings.  That is one to watch over the coming weeks and months.
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

budmantis

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #596 on: November 17, 2016, 05:09:23 PM »
Welcome back Buddy!

Buddy

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #597 on: November 17, 2016, 05:31:55 PM »
This is what happens to people who "make it to the top and piss off everyone on their way" (Trump).  Nobody wants to work with them....and then people will watch as they fail.  Trump has already had a hard time recruiting good people into his camp....

This is just the first of many in government saying:  F you to Trump.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-intelligence-chief-clapper-resigns-152136438.html

This will be 1 - 2 years "for the ages."  From a history perspective.....the next 1 - 2 years will be about as interesting as it gets.

FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

ChasingIce

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Re: Presidential poll for US citizens on the forum
« Reply #598 on: November 17, 2016, 06:44:31 PM »
Your predictions amuse me, Buddy.   ;)

Sleepy

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