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vox_mundi

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Re: What's new in Greenland?
« Reply #550 on: March 15, 2021, 10:52:55 PM »
Scientists Stunned to Discover Plants Beneath Mile-Deep Greenland Ice
https://www.uvm.edu/uvmnews/news/uvm-scientists-stunned-discover-plants-beneath-mile-deep-greenland-ice



In 1966, US Army scientists drilled down through nearly a mile of ice in northwestern Greenland—and pulled up a fifteen-foot-long tube of dirt from the bottom. Then this frozen sediment was lost in a freezer for decades. It was accidentally rediscovered in 2017.

In 2019, University of Vermont scientist Andrew Christ looked at it through his microscope—and couldn't believe what he was seeing: twigs and leaves instead of just sand and rock. That suggested that the ice was gone in the recent geologic past—and that a vegetated landscape, perhaps a boreal forest, stood where a mile-deep ice sheet as big as Alaska stands today.

Over the last year, Christ and an international team of scientists—led by Paul Bierman at UVM, Joerg Schaefer at Columbia University and Dorthe Dahl-Jensen at the University of Copenhagen—have studied these one-of-a-kind fossil plants and sediment from the bottom of Greenland. Their results show that most, or all, of Greenland must have been ice-free within the last million years, perhaps even the last few hundred-thousand years.

The discovery helps confirm a new and troubling understanding that the Greenland ice has melted off entirely during recent warm periods in Earth's history—periods like the one we are now creating with human-caused climate change.

The new study provides the strongest evidence yet that Greenland is more fragile and sensitive to climate change than previously understood—and at grave risk of irreversibly melting off.

"This is not a twenty-generation problem," says Paul Bierman, a geoscientist at UVM in the College of Arts & Sciences, Rubenstein School of Environment & Natural Resources, and fellow in the Gund Institute for Environment. "This is an urgent problem for the next 50 years."



https://www.uvm.edu/uvmnews/news/secrets-under-ice

The material for the new PNAS study came from Camp Century, a Cold War military base dug inside the ice sheet far above the Arctic Circle in the 1960s. The real purpose of the camp was a super-secret effort, called Project Iceworm, to hide 600 nuclear missiles under the ice close to the Soviet Union. As cover, the Army presented the camp as a polar science station.

The military mission failed, but the science team did complete important research, including drilling a 4560-foot-deep ice core.

They were focused on the ice and, apparently, took less interest in a bit of dirt gathered from beneath the ice core. Then, in a truly cinematic set of strange plot twists, the ice core was moved from an Army freezer to the University of Buffalo in the 1970s, to another freezer in Copenhagen, Denmark, in the 1990s, where it languished for decades—until it surfaced when the cores were being moved to a new freezer.

... The new study makes clear that the deep ice at Camp Century—some 75 miles inland from the coast and only 800 miles from the North Pole—entirely melted at least once within the last million years and was covered with vegetation, including moss and perhaps trees. The new research, supported by the National Science Foundation, lines up with data from two other ice cores from the center of Greenland, collected in 1990s. Sediment from the bottom of these cores also indicate that the ice sheet was gone for some time in the recent geologic past.

And the new study shows that ecosystems of the past were not scoured into oblivion by ages of glaciers and ice sheets bulldozing overtop. Instead, the story of these living landscapes remains captured under the relatively young ice that formed on top of the ground, frozen in place, and holds them still.



Andrew J. Christ el al., "A multimillion-year-old record of Greenland vegetation and glacial history preserved in sediment beneath 1.4 km of ice at Camp Century," PNAS (2021).
https://www.pnas.org/content/118/13/e2021442118

... Cosmogenic 26Al/10Be and luminescence data bracket the burial of the lower-most sediment between <3.2 ± 0.4 Ma and >0.7 to 1.4 Ma. In the upper-most sediment, cosmogenic 26Al/10Be data require exposure within the last 1.0 ± 0.1 My.

The unique subglacial sedimentary record from Camp Century documents at least two episodes of ice-free, vegetated conditions, each followed by glaciation. The lower sediment derives from an Early Pleistocene GrIS advance. 26Al/10Be ratios in the upper-most sediment match those in subglacial bedrock from central Greenland, suggesting similar ice-cover histories across the GrIS. We conclude that the GrIS persisted through much of the Pleistocene but melted and reformed at least once since 1.1 Ma.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2021, 11:12:27 PM by vox_mundi »
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P-maker

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Re: What's new in Greenland?
« Reply #551 on: March 16, 2021, 03:00:28 PM »
Vox_mundi

Thanks for flagging this piece of old news from Greenland. It may very well be that the sediments from below the ice core may have been exposed to light some hundreds of thousand years ago. However, I also noticed from a quick read through some of the Supplementary material that a tiny tree fragment from one of the samples was AMS Radiocarbon dated to 38,300 BP. The scientists decided to look away from this finding, although I find that such a young age of the biogenic material ought to be much more concerning than the much older exposure date of the minerogenic material.

sidd

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Re: What's new in Greenland?
« Reply #552 on: March 17, 2021, 02:01:22 AM »
Camp Century is only 75 miles inland, would not surprise me if the thing has melted a couple times since Eemian

I think Dye-3 saw organics at the bottom too, some years ago.

sidd

gerontocrat

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Re: What's new in Greenland?
« Reply #553 on: March 17, 2021, 01:57:39 PM »
So at enormous difficulty and at great expense they drill these holes all the way through the ice sheets and completely ignore or forget to bring up a sample of dirt and bedrock from the bottom of the hole.

Scientists with blinkers on, unable to think beyond their narrow specialisation.

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gerontocrat

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Re: What's new in Greenland?
« Reply #554 on: March 21, 2021, 08:45:50 PM »
I was looking for AMSR2 data and stumbled on something else entirely.

The International Ice Patrol log the number of icebergs spotted at at South of 48 Degrees North.
ftp://sidads.colorado.edu/DATASETS/NOAA/G10028/

& here are a couple of graphs.

Just think of how many hours could be spent trying to figure out reasons for the very large decadal variations and the even more extreme yearly changes.

ps:1912 was a big year for bergs heading south - in April 395 bergs, the maximum for April until 1972, and more than the average yearly total in the 1910's
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kassy

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Re: What's new in Greenland?
« Reply #555 on: March 21, 2021, 09:23:09 PM »
Can we have an april graph?  ;)

Also 1990 really stands out in the last one.
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The Walrus

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Re: What's new in Greenland?
« Reply #556 on: March 21, 2021, 09:30:56 PM »
Yes, 1912 was a famous year for icebergs.

gerontocrat

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Re: What's new in Greenland?
« Reply #557 on: March 21, 2021, 10:40:33 PM »
Can we have an april graph?  ;)

Also 1990 really stands out in the last one.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
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gerontocrat

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Re: What's new in Greenland?
« Reply #558 on: March 21, 2021, 11:12:14 PM »
And one more for luck.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
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longwalks1

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Re: What's new in Greenland?
« Reply #559 on: April 01, 2021, 03:36:41 PM »
I stumbled across the WaPo article about the plants a mile below the ice sheet.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2021/03/15/greenland-ice-sheet-more-vulnerable/

I looked at the web site posted for further information about Project Iceworm.  And $45 is just a bit too much for an article about Project IceWorm and trying to bury nukes in Greenland.   which is how the core originated. 

https://sci-hub.st/https://doi.org/10.1080/03468750701449554

Quote
Scandinavian Journal of HistoryPublication details, including instructions for authors andsubscription information:http://www.tandfonline.com/loi/shis20THE ICEMAN THAT NEVER CAME 
Nikolaj Petersen aa Niels Juels Gade 1,3., DK‐8200 Århus N, Denmark E-mail:Published online: 17 Dec 2007

Quote
In  the  beginning  of  1960  the  US  Army  fostered  an  ambitious,  indeed  revolutionaryplan to deploy a major force of nuclear missiles under the Greenland Icecap – an ideawhich  grew  out  of  its  extensive  research  in  the  previous  decade  of  the  military potentials  of  the  Arctic  environment.  Over  the  next  few  years  the  plan,  known  asProject  Iceworm,  was  promoted  by  the  Army  as  a  response  to  three  challenges:  thestrategic challenge to American security posed by the Soviet ICBMs, the challenge tothe Army’s status posed by the US Air Force and Navy as the primary bearers of theUnited States’ nuclear deterrent, and – when this battle was lost – the challenge ofthe NATO Allies’ demand for ‘a finger on the nuclear trigger’. This battle was also lost by the Army, as the Kennedy Administration settled, in June 1962, for the MLF(Multilateral  Force)  concept,  which  envisaged  a  ship-based  mixed-manned  NATOmissile force.
Eventually, this plan also came to nothing.The Danish Government never got the scent ofProject Iceworm, whose realization
would have turned a large part of the Greenland Icecap into a US or NATO missilebase.

vox_mundi

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Re: What's new in Greenland?
« Reply #560 on: April 01, 2021, 09:31:04 PM »
Scientists Have Observed Ominous Winter Leaks in Greenland Ice Sheet Lakes
https://earther.gizmodo.com/scientists-have-observed-ominous-winter-leaks-in-greenl-1846592038

For the first time ever, scientists have shown that lakes on Greenland’s ice sheet can drain during the winter months, in a phenomenon that could accelerate the rate of glacial melt.

The rate at which the second largest ice sheet in the world is draining into the northern Atlantic ocean may be occurring faster than we think, according to new research published in the Cryosphere on Wednesday.

As the new paper shows, water that collects on the surface of the Greenland ice sheet during the summer can remain in a liquid state during the winter and leak through cracks that appear along the surface, sending it down to the base below. The drained water then acts like a greasy lubricant, increasing the speed at which ice shelf can move. That’s not an encouraging finding in this, the era of human-induced climate change where Greenland is already losing six times more ice than it was in the 1980s.

... The researchers developed an algorithm to “examine spatial and temporal variations in microwave backscatter from Sentinel-1 satellite synthetic aperture radar (SAR) imagery,” which they did to “document the location and timing of six separate lake drainage events over three different winters,” as the authors wrote in their study.

This technique proved useful, as the chosen microwave wavelength penetrated clouds and darkness, and because the SAR instrument was able to pick up water and ice as distinct signatures. The researchers confirmed the winter lake drainage and offered estimates of how much water is getting lost by using optical data gathered by the Landsat 8 satellite during previous and subsequent melt seasons.

In total, the scientists surveyed 11,758 square miles (30,453 square kilometers) of the Greenland ice sheet from late 2014 through to early 2017. The results showed all six lakes studied—whether buried or covered in a layer of ice—were leaking during the winter months.

Winter drainage of surface lakes on the Greenland Ice Sheet from Sentinel-1 SAR imagery
https://tc.copernicus.org/articles/15/1587/2021/tc-15-1587-2021.pdf
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nukefix

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Re: What's new in Greenland?
« Reply #561 on: April 02, 2021, 11:47:01 AM »
So at enormous difficulty and at great expense they drill these holes all the way through the ice sheets and completely ignore or forget to bring up a sample of dirt and bedrock from the bottom of the hole.

Scientists with blinkers on, unable to think beyond their narrow specialisation.
Well, it was the US Army which has priorities besides scientific excellence.

gerontocrat

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Re: What's new in Greenland?
« Reply #562 on: April 02, 2021, 12:01:12 PM »
So at enormous difficulty and at great expense they drill these holes all the way through the ice sheets and completely ignore or forget to bring up a sample of dirt and bedrock from the bottom of the hole.

Scientists with blinkers on, unable to think beyond their narrow specialisation.
Well, it was the US Army which has priorities besides scientific excellence.
I was thinking of all the other holes that have been drilled through the AIS and GIS. Did they bring up a bit of dirt / bedrock, and were these examined? Surely we would have heard something about it if they found signs of organic material down there before this?
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sidd

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Re: What's new in Greenland?
« Reply #563 on: April 03, 2021, 01:33:03 AM »
Yes. from wikipedia on DYE-3

"Samples from the base of the 2 km deep Dye 3 1979 and the 3 km deep GRIP cores revealed that high-altitude southern Greenland has been inhabited by a diverse array of conifer trees and insects within the past million years"

sidd

gerontocrat

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Re: What's new in Greenland?
« Reply #564 on: April 03, 2021, 04:10:51 PM »
Yes. from wikipedia on DYE-3

"Samples from the base of the 2 km deep Dye 3 1979 and the 3 km deep GRIP cores revealed that high-altitude southern Greenland has been inhabited by a diverse array of conifer trees and insects within the past million years"

sidd
Thanks sidd.

Qu - How long before our descendants (if we have any) see the return of such vegetation ?

I read a recent science paper recently that suggested that by mid to end of this century, annual Greenland SMB change may be -ve, compared with +360 GT as of now. The change in southern Greenland could be far greater than that.
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sidd

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Re: What's new in Greenland?
« Reply #565 on: April 04, 2021, 02:29:55 AM »
I think the fastest deglaciation timescale for GIS i have seen is around 500 yr. But i also seem to remenber that the imposed warming in that paper was +6C global, so +12 in the far north ...

I cant remember the name of the authors, and i have not the time right now to look it up,  but recall that AbruptSLR and i discussed it somewhere in one of the threads.

I expect saddle collapse at 67N between the north and south domes to occur faster than that, and that is also suspiciously close to the DYE site. There is a paper by Otto-Bliesner (?) that did a simulation of the Eemian and showed substantial melt at DYE3, DYE 3 was right on the edge of icecover in that model. I believe that paper may have been discussed at the time somewhere on realclimate.

sidd

gerontocrat

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Re: What's new in Greenland?
« Reply #566 on: April 07, 2021, 11:31:28 PM »
What's new in Greenland?

Greenland's main opposition party has won the general election.

"So what?" you may ask.

READ ON
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56643429

Greenland election: Opposition win casts doubt on mine

Quote
Greenland's main opposition party has won an election which could have major consequences for international interests in the Arctic.

The left-wing Inuit Ataqatigiit, which opposes a mining project in southern Greenland, secured 37% of votes.

Its leader said on Wednesday that the Kvanefjeld mine, home to major deposits of rare minerals, would not go ahead.

The social-democratic Siumut party came second, having been in power for all but four years since 1979.

Inuit Ataqatigiit, an indigenous party with a strong environmental focus, will now seek to form a government.

Greenland is a vast autonomous arctic territory that belongs to Denmark. Although it has a population of just 56,000, the result of the election has been closely followed internationally.
Greenland's economy relies on fishing and subsidies from the Danish government, but as a result of melting ice, mining opportunities are increasing.

What's at stake
The company that owns the site at Kvanefjeld, in the south of the country, says the mine has "the potential to become the most significant western world producer of rare earths", a group of 17 elements used to manufacture electronics and weapons.

However, disagreement over the project led to the collapse of Greenland's government earlier this year, paving the way for Tuesday's snap election. Many locals had raised concerns about the potential for radioactive pollution and toxic waste in the farmland surrounding the proposed mine.

"The people have spoken," Inuit Ataqatigiit's leader Múte Bourup Egede told Danish state broadcaster DR on Wednesday morning, adding that the project would be halted.

The head of the Siumut Party, Erik Jensen, told Denmark's TV 2 he believed the controversy surrounding the Kvanefjeld mine was "one of the main reasons" for its defeat, with 29% of the vote. The party had supported the development, arguing that it would provide hundreds of jobs and generate hundreds of millions of dollars annually over several decades, which could lead to greater independence from Denmark.

Why is Greenland important?


The Kvanefjeld site is owned by an Australian company, Greenland Minerals, which is in turn backed by a Chinese company.

China already has mining deals with Greenland, while the US - which has a key Cold War-era air base at Thule - has offered millions in aid.

Denmark has itself acknowledged the territory's importance: in 2019 it placed Greenland at the top of its national security agenda for the first time.

And in March this year, one think tank concluded that the UK, the US, Australia, Canada and New Zealand - known collectively as the Five Eyes - should focus on Greenland to reduce their dependency on China for key mineral supplies.

China wants the mine, the USA probably needs the mine. Perhaps Elon Musk. the other EV manufacturers and Big Tech need the mine. So who do you think is going to win? The Superpowers & Big Tech or a bunch of ordinary Greenlanders
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
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be cause

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Re: What's new in Greenland?
« Reply #567 on: April 08, 2021, 04:55:57 AM »
    talking @ Greenland , it seems very unusual to have depressions passing W - E across the north of Greenland , then deepening in the N. Atlantic . There are 2 forecast in the days ahead .
   Or is it normal ? b.c.
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 + 2 = 2021 + 1 =  ' if only we could have seen it coming ' ...

VeliAlbertKallio

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Re: What's new in Greenland?
« Reply #568 on: April 08, 2021, 05:26:08 AM »
What's new in Greenland? Greenland's main opposition party has won the general election. "So what?" you may ask. <snip> China wants the mine, the USA probably needs the mine. Perhaps Elon Musk. the other EV manufacturers and Big Tech need the mine. So who do you think is going to win? The Superpowers & Big Tech or a bunch of ordinary Greenlanders
The EV has resolved itself very recently: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/03/28/british-firm-cracks-electric-car-motor-conundrum/
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OffTheGrid

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Re: What's new in Greenland?
« Reply #569 on: April 10, 2021, 08:27:43 PM »
A lot of Tsunami.

Here's one of several on YouTube in the last week


Jim Hunt

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Re: What's new in Greenland?
« Reply #570 on: April 10, 2021, 08:34:12 PM »
The EV has resolved itself very recently: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/03/28/british-firm-cracks-electric-car-motor-conundrum/

At the risk of drifting off topic, the ToryGraph tends to be behind the curve on these matters. See also this 2015 press release:

https://ricardo.com/news-and-media/news-and-press/ricardo-develops-next-generation-electric-vehicle
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grixm

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Re: What's new in Greenland?
« Reply #571 on: April 10, 2021, 08:38:27 PM »
A lot of Tsunami.

Here's one of several on YouTube in the last week

(youtube link)

It says in the description this was in June 2017, so probably this one: https://ce.gatech.edu/news/after-recon-trip-researchers-say-greenland-tsunami-june-reached-300-feet-high