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budmantis

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The Crisis for Liberalism in the United States and Europe
« on: November 21, 2016, 04:54:15 PM »
I've been thinking about starting a new thread since the U.S. Presidential election resulted in a Donald Trump victory. I also wanted to incorporate what is happening here in the U.S. as well as Canada and Europe. The Presidential poll thread seems to have outlived it's usefulness and the Empire America thread doesn't seem to be the right place to address this issue.

Here's an article from the NY Times to kickoff the start of this thread:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/20/opinion/sunday/the-crisis-for-liberalism.html?_r=0

"The 2016 campaign was a crisis for conservatism; it's aftermath is a crisis for liberalism."
« Last Edit: November 21, 2016, 05:08:47 PM by budmantis »

budmantis

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Re: The Crisis for Liberalism in the United States and Europe
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2016, 05:06:28 PM »
Two articles from Politico regarding the future of Obamacare and Elizabeth Warren's emergence since the election.

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/obamacare-repeal-market-collapses-231653

"Obamacare repeal plan stokes fears of market collapse."

From our own experience, my wife and I have both benefitted from the Affordable Care Act (ACA). I am now on Medicare, but my wife is still three years shy of qualifying. I've talked with enough people to know that the ACA has it's drawbacks and changes should be made to improve it. Some Republicans want to repeal the ACA and not replace it, while others want to repeal and replace.

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/elizabeth-warren-democrats-liberals-231692

"Elizabeth Warren fills the Democratic void."

"The Massachusetts senator is making clear she intends to stand against Donald Trump every step of the way."

budmantis

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Re: The Crisis for Liberalism in the United States and Europe
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2016, 06:32:17 AM »
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/alt-right-hate-richard-spencer_us_5833242fe4b058ce7aac26fe

"The alt-right is a hate movement, and it's scarier than you think."

"It's leader, Richard Spencer is no less skilled at manipulation than Donald Trump."

budmantis

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Re: The Crisis for Liberalism in the United States and Europe
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2016, 03:27:22 PM »
http://www.france24.com/en/20161121-hes-tipped-be-french-conservative-nominee-president-but-who-francois-fillon

"Fillon proposes a new path for the French right."

"He was the outsider few predicted would win the first round of primary voting among France's centre-right presidential candidates, but François Fillon has emerged as the new favourite who just might sweep the conservatives to power."

budmantis

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Re: The Crisis for Liberalism in the United States and Europe
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2016, 05:54:43 AM »
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38075644

"Austrian far right hopeful Hofer may back EU vote."

"Austria's far-right presidential candidate Norbert Hofer has said he would push for a referendum on EU membership, if the EU became more centralised after Brexit."

TerryM

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Re: The Crisis for Liberalism in the United States and Europe
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2016, 08:17:44 AM »

I'm in extreme sympathy with the fears that I expect we are all feeling.

I also fear for the longevity of this forum & therefor wonder if it is wise to continue what could be considered as attacks on the president elect of a country strong enough to close down this on any other web site,
I'm going to copy this to any other threads heading in this directon
Thanks
Terry
« Last Edit: November 24, 2016, 09:08:55 AM by TerryM »

Archimid

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Re: The Crisis for Liberalism in the United States and Europe
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2016, 12:11:37 PM »
Quote
wonder if it is wise to continue what could be considered as attacks on the president elect of a country strong enough to close down this on any other web site,

We absolutely must continue without fear.  Silence now will mean losing more later.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

greylib

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Re: The Crisis for Liberalism in the United States and Europe
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2016, 02:47:12 PM »
Over the course of a longish life (now approaching 70), I've seen a couple of changes that seem to me to be important and relevant.

When I was growing up, there were entire groups of people who couldn't be bought at any price. Not all of them, but the vast majority of police, doctors, teachers, bank managers, priests, local and national politicians, army officers, senior civil servants, directors of major companies... Nowadays everyone seems to be on the take, and the word "probity" has disappeared from the dictionary.

Allied with that, the growth of a "political" class. I've put "political" in quotes because they aren't political in the traditional sense. They aren't driven by any burning ideals - they're in politics for power and money, for themselves and the rest of the class. Take a look at how many millionaires there are in both UK houses of parliament, in all parties. Likewise the US Congress and Senate. A lot of them were wealthy before they were elected, but most are much richer now, and more than can be explained by the pay for the job.

Most people aren't stupid. They've noticed all this, and wonder where their democracy has gone. What seems to be happening is that they're voting against the people who think they own them. Such votes usually aren't sensible, but they're saying "years of voting responsibly has given us this - let's try something different."

I have to admit that I gave in to the urge once, and voted for RRS Boaty McBoatface.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/apr/17/boaty-mcboatface-wins-poll-to-name-polar-research-vessel
Naturally, the Owners didn't allow the decision to stand, but it was good fun while it lasted!

Ebbw Vale voted Brexit
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/25/view-wales-town-showered-eu-cash-votes-leave-ebbw-vale
even though they're had more EU inward investment than just about anywhere and have almost no immigrants to worry about. As one of them said, "we gave David Cameron a good kicking.”

Things are eventually going to turn around. Whether it'll be soon enough to save our civilisation, who knows? If not, maybe we're not worth saving. A meme I've noticed recently: people saying "I have something that most of the richest people in the world don't have, and can never have: I have ENOUGH!" If enough people start thinking that way, maybe we'll start to give our respect to those who are part of the solution, not those who are most of the problem.
Step by step, moment by moment
We live through another day.

SteveMDFP

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Re: The Crisis for Liberalism in the United States and Europe
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2016, 06:31:24 PM »
Over the course of a longish life (now approaching 70), I've seen a couple of changes that seem to me to be important and relevant.

When I was growing up, there were entire groups of people who couldn't be bought at any price. Not all of them, but the vast majority of police, doctors, teachers, bank managers, priests, local and national politicians, army officers, senior civil servants, directors of major companies... Nowadays everyone seems to be on the take, and the word "probity" has disappeared from the dictionary.
[snip]

Things are eventually going to turn around. Whether it'll be soon enough to save our civilisation, who knows? If not, maybe we're not worth saving. A meme I've noticed recently: people saying "I have something that most of the richest people in the world don't have, and can never have: I have ENOUGH!" If enough people start thinking that way, maybe we'll start to give our respect to those who are part of the solution, not those who are most of the problem.

I'd respectfully disagree.  It certainly does SEEM that officials in positions of authority are less ethical these days.  I deeply doubt that it's true.  I think people in authority have always had a similar set of ethical deficits (or strengths, individually).  But we now live in an information age where every action leaves a trail of evidence.  There are far fewer secrets.  Everyone's dirty laundry is on display.  I actually think this change in official privacy actually keeps everyone a little more upright than they used to be.

But the relentless loss of public trust in authority figures does have a net corrosive effect on society.  More and more, the only people who end up really believing in anything or anyone are increasing extremists and ideologues.  And they're of all kinds of stripes now.  Modern, open societies are increasingly being pulled apart by centrifugal forces.

I don't see anything on the horizon to reverse these centrifugal forces.  Only more unrest, leading to the only stable societies perhaps being authoritarian ones.  In Putin's Russia, nobody was surprised to hear he had money in that Panama banking system, and most didn't care.  Most are just happy that he seems strong, bold and keeps order and direction amidst the domestic and international storms.  I see the effects of climate change leading most societies towards chaos (e.g., the Arab Spring aftermath) or towards authoritarian regimes (as was re-established in Egypt, for example).  I'm not an optimist here, and it's quite sad.

pileus

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Re: The Crisis for Liberalism in the United States and Europe
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2016, 06:35:01 PM »
We absolutely must continue without fear.  Silence now will mean losing more later.

+1

There is no reason to stop criticizing and mocking Trump, until they come for our keyboards.

Doesn't that sound like the nut jobs on the US right wing, regarding Obama coming for their guns?

Trump, the neo-Nazis, and their motley coalition want us to be afraid and intimidated, and therefore silent.  If we stop they win, and most of us lose horribly.

pileus

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Re: The Crisis for Liberalism in the United States and Europe
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2016, 06:44:02 PM »
But a good point in that the ongoing critique is best centered around policy and outcomes around physical sciences, the environment, and global warming, given the intent of this forum.

All of that should continue unabated here, it's absolutely appropriate given the the influence of the POTUS and the US government around the earth.

There are other places better suited for critiques on all of the other horrible aspects of Trump.

be cause

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Re: The Crisis for Liberalism in the United States and Europe
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2016, 10:45:26 PM »
and if what you resist persists .. the only soloution is Love . Love trumps Trump .
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 + 2 = 2021 + 1 =  ' if only we could have seen it coming ' ...

budmantis

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Re: The Crisis for Liberalism in the United States and Europe
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2016, 04:38:34 PM »
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/11/donald-trump-conservative-media-charlie-sykes-214483

"You think the truth took a hit last year? It's about to get worse. A lot worse."

Extract: Trump’s victory means that the most extreme and recklessly irresponsible voices on the right now feel emboldened and empowered. And more worrisome than that, they have an ally in the White House. For years, Rush Limbaugh has gibed about what he calls the “state-controlled media”—the fawning liberal news outlets that Limbaugh has long decried for their lack of critical coverage of President Obama—but we may be about to see what one actually looks like—an alt-reality news outlet operating from within 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. The new media will not only provide propaganda cover for the administration, but also direct the fire of a loose confederation of conservative outlets against critics and dissenters. Already, Fox’s Sean Hannity has urged Trump to freeze out the mainstream media and talk directly to the nation.

budmantis

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Re: The Crisis for Liberalism in the United States and Europe
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2016, 03:58:43 PM »
http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-38103800

"The group that wants to 'out' liberal professors."

"A new website has been set up in the US with the aim of naming and shaming left-wing professors for being biased. But some academics are fighting back with humour, poking fun at the project."

budmantis

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Re: The Crisis for Liberalism in the United States and Europe
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2016, 05:56:21 PM »
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-mosque-letters-genocide_us_5839ffcbe4b000af95ee61bd

"Letters To California Mosques Praise Donald Trump, Promise Genocide."

"“You Muslims are a vile and filthy people."

I wonder how long we'll have to wait to hear Pres. elect Trump denounce this?

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Re: The Crisis for Liberalism in the United States and Europe
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2016, 08:21:34 PM »
Wonder how the recent elections here & there would have gone if the outgoing presidents/prime ministers had been more understanding of their electorate.

Sometimes doing the right thing isn't always the right thing. I thought being liberal was being open to & involving all views.As long as there is vigorous & threatening views from one side i'm sure the other side will react in the same way & vice/ versa.

We live in a democracy, you lose you bite you're tongue til the next go, jeez some of us here in the UK have been waiting for 40+yrs to get our say.







budmantis

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Re: The Crisis for Liberalism in the United States and Europe
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2016, 01:47:29 AM »
Wonder how the recent elections here & there would have gone if the outgoing presidents/prime ministers had been more understanding of their electorate.

Sometimes doing the right thing isn't always the right thing. I thought being liberal was being open to & involving all views.As long as there is vigorous & threatening views from one side i'm sure the other side will react in the same way & vice/ versa.

We live in a democracy, you lose you bite you're tongue til the next go, jeez some of us here in the UK have been waiting for 40+yrs to get our say.

There is no room for hate mongering, it is unacceptable. Living in a democracy, one must accept the will of the majority, but "biting one's tongue" is not democratic, especially when the winner of the U.S. Presidential election makes the following statement:

http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/27/politics/donald-trump-voter-fraud-popular-vote/index.html

"Trump falsely claims 'millions of people who voted illegally' cost him popular vote."


 

budmantis

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Re: The Crisis for Liberalism in the United States and Europe
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2016, 01:59:33 AM »
Trump's new tax plan will raise taxes for some in the middle class, while lowering taxes for people in the top tax bracket:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/taxes/analysis-for-some-in-middle-class-trump-plan-would-mean-tax-increase/ar-AAkNzUW?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp

"President-elect Donald Trump's proposals would modestly cut income taxes for most middle-class Americans. But for nearly 8 million families -- including a majority of single-parent households -- the opposite would occur: They'd pay more."

-----

Supply side economics has been attempted here in the U.S. twice before; In the 1980's with Ronald Reagan, and in the 2000's with George W. Bush. The result each time was ballooning deficits. The Republicans have often criticized the Obama presidency for increasing the size of the national debt. Despite their criticism of Obama, I'm sure they'll have no problem in trying out this failed experiment for the third time.

budmantis

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Re: The Crisis for Liberalism in the United States and Europe
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2016, 05:01:29 PM »
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38198694

"Austria presidential election re-run 'too close to call'

Austrians are voting in a re-run of a presidential election which pits far-right Freedom Party candidate Norbert Hofer against former Green Party head Alexander Van der Bellen.

budmantis

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Re: The Crisis for Liberalism in the United States and Europe
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2016, 06:43:55 AM »
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38204189

"Italy referendum: PM Matteo Renzi resigns after clear referendum defeat."

"Italian Prime Minister Matteo Renzi has resigned after suffering a heavy defeat in a referendum over his plan to reform the constitution."

budmantis

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Re: The Crisis for Liberalism in the United States and Europe
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2016, 06:54:33 AM »
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38202669

"Austria far-right candidate Norbert Hofer defeated in presidential poll."

Extract: On Facebook, he described himself as "infinitely sad" and congratulated Alexander Van der Bellen, former head of the Greens, on his victory.
Although the post is ceremonial in Austria, the poll had been seen as a sign of how well populist candidates might do elsewhere in Europe.
Mr Van der Bellen called the result a vote for a "pro-European" Austria based on "freedom, equality and solidarity".

budmantis

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Re: The Crisis for Liberalism in the United States and Europe
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2016, 06:37:48 AM »
http://www.france24.com/en/20161202-manuel-valls-obstacles-french-presidency-2017-socialists

"All eyes on Valls after Hollande bows out of French presidential race."

"Now that French President François Hollande has announced that he will not be seeking another term, all eyes are on his prime minister, Manuel Valls, ahead of the left wing’s January primary to choose a presidential candidate for 2017."

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: The Crisis for Liberalism in the United States and Europe
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2019, 07:24:39 PM »
ONLY A GREEN NEW DEAL CAN DOUSE THE FIRES OF ECO-FASCISM
https://theintercept.com/2019/09/16/climate-change-immigration-mass-shootings/
Quote
The rapidly escalating cruelty of our present moment cannot be overstated; nor can the long-term damage to the collective psyche should this go unchallenged. Beneath the theater of some governments denying climate change and others claiming to be doing something about it while they fortress their borders from its effects, there is one overarching question facing us. In the rough and rocky future that has already begun, what kind of people are we going to be? Will we share what’s left and try to look after one another? Or are we instead going to attempt to hoard what’s left, look after “our own,” and lock everyone else out?

In this time of rising seas and rising fascism, these are the stark choices before us. There are options besides full-blown climate barbarism, but given how far down that road we are, there is no point pretending that they are easy. It’s going to take a lot more than a carbon tax or cap-and-trade. It’s going to take an all-out war on pollution and poverty and racism and colonialism and despair all at the same time.
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KiwiGriff

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Re: The Crisis for Liberalism in the United States and Europe
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2020, 08:19:48 PM »
I guess this fits here even though we are not Europe or America.
NZ election.
Left.
Center left labour party 49.1% of the party vote. 64 seats
Green party 7.6% and one electoral seat. 10 seats.
Right.
ACT Neoliberal 8%. 10 seats.
National center right Conservative  26.8%. 35 seats.

NZ First populist 2.7% and gone from Parliament.

Resounding victory for "liberalism' whatever that means.

NZ's effective response to Covid  has boosted the support of the center left  government.
Significant swing to Greens by left wing voters probably because labour was polling high so many voted Green party to push them further towards efforts on climate change.
https://www.electionresults.govt.nz/
NZ MMP system .
https://elections.nz/democracy-in-nz/what-is-new-zealands-system-of-government/what-is-mmp/

Animals can be driven crazy by placing too many in too small a pen. Homo sapiens is the only animal that voluntarily does this to himself.
Notebooks of Lazarus Long.
Robert Heinlein.

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: The Crisis for Liberalism in the United States and Europe
« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2020, 12:52:28 AM »
Quote
I guess this fits here even though we are not Europe or America.
NZ election.
NZ is historically part of the British civilization, and imho the title of the thread is overly restrictive.
SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

bbr2315

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Re: The Crisis for Liberalism in the United States and Europe
« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2020, 02:41:13 PM »
It appears the root of the crisis in the EU is Islam. More beheadings in France today. I think the apocalyptic winter wave of COVID in the EU will trigger most countries to shift very far-right, and there will soon be mass expulsions or worse.

Europeans love to tell Americans how stupid and evil they are, meanwhile, they are quite proficient at genocide.

RikW

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Re: The Crisis for Liberalism in the United States and Europe
« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2020, 09:08:16 AM »
The root is populism, misinformation and fake-nationalism. In our current world there is no place for nationalism, because of the digital world where borders don't exist. But it is much easier to blame others than to blame yourself.

Everything that is wrong in the Netherlands it the fault of the EU and the immigrants, everything that is great is because of the politicians. At least, that is what they say.

What they forget is that we as a country can veto almost everything bad that is decided in Europe (which we didn't apparently...), that most bad things for us are good things for others, and because of those bad things other good thing could be done and the sum of those decisions is good for us.
And they also forgot because of the immigrants we are a lot richer then we would have been without and we don't have to do the shitty jobs ourselves.

bbr2315

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Re: The Crisis for Liberalism in the United States and Europe
« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2020, 10:52:09 PM »
Another Synagogue attack, this time in Vienna. Seems to be a recurring theme re: perpetrators. The immigration must be stopped or Europe will be doomed.

morganism

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Re: The Crisis for Liberalism in the United States and Europe
« Reply #28 on: Today at 05:24:39 AM »
How meritocracy entrenches inequality

https://the.ink/p/dignity

MICHAEL: The pandemic is revealing. It's a crisis, and, like most crises, it reveals the fundamental shape of our social and political lives. Central to the shape of our social and political life in recent decades has been deepening inequality. Not only that, a growing divide between winners and losers has poisoned our politics and driven us apart.

Those who've landed on top have come to believe that their success is their own doing, the measure of their merit. And, by implication, that those who struggle, those who've been left behind, have no one to blame but themselves.

In “The Tyranny of Merit,” I try to give an account of how a seemingly attractive principle, the principle of merit, has a dark side that's corrosive of the common good.