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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #250 on: May 17, 2013, 05:49:45 PM »
The study shows a nearly quintupled number of weather-related loss events in North America for the past three decades, compared with an increase factor of 4 in Asia, 2.5 in Africa, 2 in Europe and 1.5 in South America.
Actually I think that quote illustrates my point - "weather-related loss events". That's not the same thing exactly as natural catastrophes (though even if it was, the US is better placed to deal with them than most of the other regions).

wili

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #251 on: May 17, 2013, 06:07:53 PM »
"astroturf opposition to Geo-E"

Lewis, I agree with most of your positions, here and elsewhere. I would just point out that not all opposition to Geo-E can be properly characterized as "astroturf."
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #252 on: May 17, 2013, 07:43:12 PM »
I expect we will transition to some form of authoritarian/command structure resembling a modern version of a feudal society.  It would be interesting to read your thoughts on what you think our economic structure might be like in 40-50 years.

You are likely right.

I think the movement away from Democracy (or other forms of governance) and the ascendency of the marketplace has been occurring for some time. Whether cloaked as neoliberal or neoconservate, both worship at the altar of the market. Instruments of government are increasingly at the beck and call of wealth which, as a result of free markets, now spans political boundaries. When government (expressing the will of the governed) seeks to institute policy at odds with the market, enormous capital outflows punish the transgression. The power of the market place has contributed to the increasingly dysfunctional behavior in U.S. politics. As the official organs of governance quit responding to Americans, we see a dramatic increase in populist movements on the right (Tea Party) and on the left (Occupy Wall Street) Both see "big" (banks, corporations, government as the servant of market etc.) as the enemy. Keep in mind the existence of "big" is a natural outcome of the accumulation of capital.

This does not mean to suggest that populism will be our salvation. Riots are occurring across Europe (increasingly violent) driven by the same hopelessness that fueled the Arab spring. The tyranny of the masses may prove to be every bit as onerous as the tyranny of the market. The natural response of government will be to defend the status quo and suppress any popular opposition.

Lewis C

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #253 on: May 17, 2013, 08:34:36 PM »
CCG - consider the ratios of the impacts reported in the regions:

"The study shows a nearly quintupled number of weather-related loss events in North America for the past three decades, compared with an increase factor of 4 in Asia, 2.5 in Africa, 2 in Europe and 1.5 in South America. "

They are plainly neither the ratios of GDP growth, nor of the value of vulnerable infrastructure in place. They are as stated the increase in "weather related loss events" - i.e. where extreme weather has come in and destroyed something. The Africa-Europe ratio is perhaps the most telling on this, but even the N.Am-Africa ratio makes the case pretty clearly.

Regards,

Lewis

Lewis C

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #254 on: May 17, 2013, 08:46:33 PM »
Wili - you're quite right that not all opposition to Geo-E is astroturf, and I didn't intend to imply that it was. There are certainly people of integrity with strong doubts - due quite often to misleading information foisted on them - with whom I'm happy to spend time discussing the issues.

In this sense there is a parallel fraction of people who get called deniers when they don't remotely deserve the term. Flukers would be a far better characterization of their doubts that man could actually affect the whole planet's climate, not only because they tend to discount impacts to date as yet more flukes, but also because it can be used amicably in discussion to leave them ample room to one day declare they've changed their mind after yet another outrageous weather event.

Regards,

Lewis

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #255 on: May 17, 2013, 08:49:05 PM »
They are plainly neither the ratios of GDP growth, nor of the value of vulnerable infrastructure in place. They are as stated the increase in "weather related loss events" - i.e. where extreme weather has come in and destroyed something. The Africa-Europe ratio is perhaps the most telling on this, but even the N.Am-Africa ratio makes the case pretty clearly.
In that case I think I need to try to find out exactly what a "weather related loss event" is. If it is really where extreme weather has come and destroyed something - fair enough - but what counts as something? Does it need to result in insurance claims, for example? What about people who do not count as something (plenty of those in Africa in the eyes of more affluent nations and corporations like insurance companies - no money to pay out after all)

America is heavily insured and accordingly will trigger a lot of insurance claims for natural disasters. A lot of events where "something is destroyed" in other words. Crops may be lost or people die or infrastructure be damaged in African nations - and who will record/report it? Who will make an insurance claim? Unless one can show a truly impartial source of data behind those ratios (eg satellite measurements) I'm skeptical that we should assume climate impacts in Africa have increased so much less than America? (skeptical, but not refusing to consider the possibility the interpretation is valid even if you drop the term "loss events" out)

I'm not saying I necessarily think it implausible - just that I don't trust the data source or understand what counts as a "loss event" versus "weather event". If a loss event is required to count for their data - of course America will seem to have more...

wili

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #256 on: May 17, 2013, 11:43:28 PM »
Thanks for the clarification, Lewis.

I assume that you don't think that all geo-engineering schemes are equally viable. Perhaps you could give an ordered list of those you think have the best chances of working and the least possibility of major unintended consequences. Clearly, the worst kind of Geo-E is the sort that we are doing--dumping massive quantities of carbon into the atmosphere, apparently at ever greater rates. You clearly think that cloud whitening and bio-char sit at or near the other end of that spectrum. It would be useful as at least a starting point to have one person who has looked into them to lay out the range of possibilities and their relative viability, even though we know that much more research will be needed for most of them. Thanks ahead of time.

For the record, I count myself as one who is generally skeptical of most geo-engineering schemes--they generally strike me as hubris attempting to solve the problems of hubris, a good recipe for solutions causing problems that will need further solutions. But biological 'sequestration' certainly seems a reasonable thing to pursue (which I actually do in my own small way). And I'm open to hear about others, particularly if they are easily stoppable/reversable if negative, unforeseen consequences ensue.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

ritter

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #257 on: May 18, 2013, 01:28:54 AM »
So, we've released what is essentially millions of years of stored and compressed solar energy in a century and we somehow think we have the energy/resources to "geoengineer" ourselves out of the consequences? I don't buy it.

Lewis C

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #258 on: May 18, 2013, 03:31:55 AM »
Ritter - there are a couple of points you may want to consider.

First the millions of years of stored solar energy is not quite what it seems - the total known & projected fossil fuel reserves represent the tiny fraction of the biomass that grew over the aeons that happened to have the necessary conditions to end up fossilized and metamorphosed by geology.

Next, the energy and resources needed for effective geo-engineering are readily available for the Albedo Restoration mode of Geo-E  - where the most promising option of 'cloud brightening' would reportedly need between one and two thousand wind-powered vessels of about 100ft length. The pumps driving the seawater mist jet would be driven by submerged rotors taking power from the vessel's speed.

The second mode, Carbon Recovery, has only one feasible option due to its huge scale and thus its need of a partly self-funding carbon sequestration option. At best, it is about native coppice forestry for biochar and co-product methanol, working with village scale plants to minimize feedstock transport losses. Those plants would need to be mass produced in modular form to minimize capital outlays, but the operating energy requirement is negative as the process is both highly exothermic and puts about 28% of the feedstock's potential energy into woodgas, which is readily converted to methanol that should amply cover product-disribution fuel-needs.

The major resource need is of course of non-farmland for afforestation, which sets the limit on the maximum potential carbon recovery per year. Using all of the 1.6GHa.s identified by the WRI-WFN study as available globally, plus harvesting most of the present infestations of water hyacinth, plus using a good fraction of the global urban and rural biomass wastes, the program would demonstrably need to run into next century to restore the pre-industrial atmosphere.  A smaller feedstock resource would of course require a longer period of operation, implying a worse acidification event for the oceans.

Next, its worth noting that both modes of Geo-E are only the necessary adjuncts to a stringent Emissions Control program, without which they'd be simply futile. They are no kind of quick overall fix.

Next, with even very stringent Emissions-Control-alone being patently unable to control the warming that we've unleashed, what other choices do we have ? There are of course no guarantees of success - it seems the nearest we have to a guarantee is of our failure as a species if we fail to try.

Regards,

Lewis

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #259 on: May 18, 2013, 10:27:11 AM »
Hello wili,

Have you described how are you sequestering C02 in an other thread ? If no, can you do it please on an appropriate thread ?

Personally I am not for Geo-engineering, it does sound so funny, we have to solve our structural problem first. As Einstein was saying :
“We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.”
The first thing to think of is Negawatts (reducing strongly the energy consumption or not using energy at all (changing our consumption)), after is biological carbon sequestration (there is different possibilities but it is not clear how it will be done and set in motion world wide), and thirdly Geo-engeeniring...I am still not convinced !!!

TerryM

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #260 on: May 18, 2013, 11:02:53 AM »
Wili
Geo-engineering scares the bejesus out of me. I keep thinking back to the schemes used to solve problems of one invasive species by introducing an invasive predator species - and how that usually worked out.
We have to stop producing and using FF - preferably starting about 50 years ago - then figure out how to halt the pine beetle that has now crossed the Rockies and will destroy the forests of Canada. This needs to be done prior to 2,000. Once these have been accomplished we'll have time to work on removal of CO2 from the atmosphere, never letting it rise above 350 PPM so that Ocean acidification stays under control.
Hook up the Delorean 'cause a sequel is needed!
Terry

Lewis C

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #261 on: May 18, 2013, 05:11:28 PM »
CCG - IIRC the report is referring to insured and uninsured losses, not to insurers' losses.

Munich Re is a supremely risk-averse organization - to the extent of having avoided the temptations of the novel 'financial instruments' of the last decade and thus maintained steady growth - unlike its competitors. From this perspective it isn't going to make claims of evidence of rising climate impacts, nor of the US being the prime target, without rock-solid justification. Insurers would switch away from Munich Re if there was even a hint that their rates reflected an unjustified assessment of regions' changing climate risks. In reality, their weather risks business has been growing steadily.

To get chapter and verse on the matter I'd suggest contacting Prof. Peter Hoppe who runs the relevant department, who is reportedly very approachable and should be able to give clarification.

Regards,

Lewis

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #262 on: May 18, 2013, 06:47:57 PM »
I would never say (from the knowledge base I now have) that Geo-E projects do not have the technical (within the laws of physics) possibility of reversing the damage humans have wrought to our bio-sphere, but...like Terry I am highly skeptical of such proposals.  For many reasons.  Foremost among them is that we quickly run into the Law of Unintended Consequences.  Do we really know the entirety of the effects and consequences of executing any one of the many Geo-E proposals?  I really doubt it at this point.  It would be wise to ensure that we would not make things worse in the long-run vice actually improving the future situation.  After all our track record on Geo-E projects to date is not exactly admirable.


On a more real-world (engineering) aspect of executing Geo-E projects you have to consider the likely amounts of resources needed to execute and whether the other competing interests for those same resources are going to have precedence over your requirements.  For example consider the possible situation that we have been discussing.  The collapse of the agriculture system.  Let's pick a date earlier than my estimate of 2050 and say it really kicks off in the timeframe mentioned in Lewis' post - 2030.  I am just going into brainstorm mode here and not trying to be be rigorous.  A given in my mind is that when agriculture collapses (whether from climate change or peak oil or both) a rapid collapse of the population is certain.


Without going into excruciating detail I think it fair to state that such an event by 2030 means that the impacts of climate change are tracking the more worst case projections.  This causes a big ripple effect through civilization and results in a vast reduction of burning of fossil fuels by and for the general public (especially coal) and a corresponding dramatic increase in the attempt of building out of the alternate energy infrastructure we have been lollygagging along at doing (if you don't replace our current energy infrastructure with an alternate one you will have large scale collapse).  In the meantime energy costs for the fossil fuels we will still be using are going to skyrocket due to the increased demand for them. As we will already know the location of more non-coal fossil fuel supplies than we dare burn we will shut down further exploration for them as those resources will be needed elsewhere.  This will throw us deep into the depletion curve (let's not forget Peak oil) and this will further dramatically raise the costs of energy supplies.



If you are going to try to maintain a civilization consisting of a mostly urban population (necessary as there is no place for these people to go to be subsistence farmers nor an infrastructure to support them getting started) you have to rebuild the transportation system and get all those people out of cars as the fuel they would use has higher priority requirements now.  A great many of the types of businesses that exist today are going to cease to exist as they consume resources that are going to be needed for other higher priority projects; air travel for non-essential business travel will stop, tourism businesses that require travel to reach will largely cease to exist, consumer retail businesses that cannot be directly converted into supporting the new infrastructure requirements will shrink dramatically, unemployment will skyrocket as a significant proportion of the world's population are not engaged in activities which are essential in any respect.  Are we going to try and feed these people who will soon no longer be able to afford to buy food?  If so, it is going to take a lot of resources being put into alternate types of farming techniques from standard industrial and small scale farming.  Subsistence farming has no value in this situation because it is only productive enough to feed itself on average.  I think it fair to say the above will have an adverse impact on our banking and financial system, which appears to be essential in order to maintain the efficient operation of our current complex civilizational structure.  I think it would operate much less efficiently, thus adding further strain to our attempts to quickly reorganize and build our infrastructure/civilization, and might actually cease to function in any form we would find familiar today.  Very sketchy thoughts but the gist of it is that reorganizing, restructuring, rebuilding, Geo-E'ing, avoiding large scale military conflicts and all that before 2030 is asking a lot.  Is it even possible?


I could go on with this stream of thought as there are a host of items that would be impacted by the collapse of ag.  But we are beating a dead horse I think.   A near-term (2030 is less than 17 years away) dramatic reduction in food and energy availability likely does not allow enough resources to be available to avoid rapid population loss.  If you can't avoid rapid population loss you do not have the time and resources to rebuild all those different infrastructures and execute your Geo-E projects.  It is the real world difference between engineering and physics.  Physics tells you what is technically possible or not.  Engineering tells you what can actually be done within real world practical constraints.  And, I suppose, finance tells you whether you are going to end up ahead or behind if you end up trying to do it.


Even if I am correct in my opinion that the agriculture system will not really fall off the cliff until mid-century I have real doubts that there is enough time and resources to execute the above.  This is why I don't think it is the path we as a species are going to take.  The requirements for change it would place upon our nature, our cultures, our social behaviors, our tribal behaviors, etc are such that I can only conceive of us making such a change as a intellectual (physics) possibility and when I contemplate it as a practical (engineering) possibility my conclusion is there is almost no chance what-so-ever that we take that path. 
 
We do not err because truth is difficult to see. It is visible at a glance. We err because this is more comfortable. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

How is it conceivable that all our technological progress - our very civilization - is like the axe in the hand of the pathological criminal? Albert Einstein

Lewis C

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #263 on: May 18, 2013, 08:07:02 PM »
Wili - you are right again - I know of only two options for Geo-E that appear viable, and one of those, Cloud Brightening, is still being denied the chicken-feed research funding to discover whether or not it actually is viable. Roll on the day when foundations are established by philanthropists specifically to fund earth sciences' research and end their current dependence on commercial and governmental backing.

Other Albedo Restoration techniques are primarily focussed on stratospheric aerosols, with sulphates having been proposed by Edward Teller in '95. Their pollution factor is an issue, but it is minor in comparison with concerns over the unavoidably global impacts - due to them spreading round the stratosphere - on regional rainfall patterns. Various alternative chemicals are being studied, such as titanium oxide, to avoid the pollution issue, but they don't assuage the major concern.

By using natural seawater for cloud brightening those concerns can potentially be resolved. Water rains out of the atmosphere in just nine days on average, meaning that the operation can be focussed on areas where any unhelpful changes in rainfall can occur over the oceans, rather than posing a global effect. In this sense it is a precision tool for planteary cooling, rather than a blunt instrument. It is also feasible for localized trials, whose effect can be halted in nine days if necessary, while the stratospheric options can only be at the global scale, with a halt-period of 2 years for the use of sulphates.

There has been discussion of surface brightening through different land-use and physically painting roofs, but I've yet to see and cogent account of its being of more than marginal effect. The ongoing acceleration just of cryosphere decline would more than outweigh a maximum global program of this option.

There has been rather wild talk of covering oceans with floating reflectors, but the ecological impacts, alongside the costs of their maintenance at sea, make this a fantasy.

The option beloved as a strawman by the nay-sayers is the fantasy of vast numbers of mirrors in space, placed at a distance where they don't fall back to earth. The financial, energy and carbon costs of getting them there negates their practicality, but worse is the fact of their irretrievability - we'd be stuck with a permanent shading of the planet. Sheer nonsense, hyped by some for their own reasons that have nothing to do with controlling AGW.

On the Carbon Recovery mode of Geo-E, only the use of biomass for biochar and co-product methanol, harvested primarily from native coppice afforestation, offers the necessary self-funding potential. It is necessary owing to the sheer scale of the task of recovering over 170ppm of CO2 (450-280) to restore the natural atmosphere. With 2.1GtC per ppm, we're looking at around 360 thousand million tonnes of airborne carbon, plus some fraction of 80GtC coming back out of the oceans as atmospheric CO2 is reduced.

Biochar's production not only offers a potentially significant global supply of the exceptional liquid fuel methanol, its use in farmland as a soil fertility enhancer and as a vital soil moisture regulator give it both a financial value and a critical strategic value in raising global farm yields to help meet the needs of the remaining rise of population. Its feedstock's production is also economically valuable in providing massive additional rural employment, thereby helping to halt and potentially reverse the increasingly perilous urban drift. The massive gains in biodiversity within 1.6GHa.s of coppice forestry would be very welcome, but they're currently of little commercial value to allay overall costs, and at best would at least help with feeding people.

There is a novel approach to ocean fertilization with iron dust that warrants some consideration here. The basic problems of stimulating organic growth being limited by the next mineral shortfall, and the worse problem of that growth falling to the seabed where its decay depletes oxygen levels, after which it decays to produce highly poisonous gas, are potentially resolved by this new approach. It proposes fertilizing areas of deep ocean that currently produce little plankton with an appropriate blend of minerals to generate massive plankton volumes. Rather than leaving these to die off, appropriate species of krill would be established to graze the plankton and grow to massive volumes per year. The trawling of these and their use for biochar would reportedly provide a very significant carbon sequestration in their own right.

There are a host of questions around this proposal's feasibility and desirability, which would require some serious research to resolve. My own primary questions would be on the viable scale of the operation for it to be of significant effect. If the ex-krill charcoal were dropped to the sea-bed from a floating production vessel, the only cost-offset is the export to shore of the liquid fuel coproduct. OTOH, if the carbon is freighted to the nearest port, the tonnages are rather fantastic. To recover just one ppm of CO2 per year would require 2.1GtC to be transported, needing 10,000 trips by 100,000 tonne super-freighters for each 1.0GtC. Which makes 21,000 runs per year by such super-freighters. There might perhaps be a moderate scale of operation that would be feasible IF the many other questions can be resolved positively, but at best it seems unlikely to be more than an incremental addition to terrestrial biochar production.

The idea of air-capture of CO2 via Dr Lackner's 'artificial trees' has gained undue press as a potentially significant solution, as he developed the concept as a means for industrial plants to recover their carbon outputs when a carbon price allows. These devices offer no prospect of being generally useful for carbon recovery as they face worse scale problems than the Krill-plankton option. For each 1.0GtC of carbon collected (from 0.48ppm CO2) by reaction with a suitable mineral, there is more or less than another 1.0Gt of the feedstock mineral that must be dug up, milled, transported and then elevated to the collectors and spread along their shelves. You then have more or less than 2.0Gts of mineral waste that must be got off the collectors' shelves, loaded onto trucks and transported to some disposal site.
And at no point is there anything of value produced to help offset the costs.

These notes on various Geo-E options are only a layman's opinions as I've no relevant expertize beyond the field of coppice forestry and the UK tradition of charcoal making.  I hope they may be of some help in providing comparisons of the various options' feasibility, not least because it is no longer possible to demonstrate the viability of controlling AGW by Emissions Control alone - even without accounting for any feedbacks. And as Terry indicates above with his remark of the pine-beetle now attacking Canada's vast Jack Pine forests, carbon feedbacks capable of dwarfing anthro-emissions are now accelerating. From this perspective the choice we face is not whether to employ Geo-E, but of which options will have to be employed.

Regards,

Lewis


Typo corrected
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 09:36:26 PM by Lewis C »

Lewis C

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #264 on: May 18, 2013, 09:31:12 PM »
Jim - re your remarks
Quote
I am highly skeptical of such proposals.  For many reasons.  Foremost among them is that we quickly run into the Law of Unintended Consequences.  Do we really know the entirety of the effects and consequences of executing any one of the many Geo-E proposals?

I'd point out that unintended consequences are primarily an indicator of deficient research. Why you think we'd  run into them quickly via Geo-E is obscure, as that depends on what research is undertaken before deployment. The fact that we are heading for catastrophic impacts on food production  and the geopolitical destabilization that implies, means that we will predictably see emergency deployment of the only ready Albedo Restoration option - the ultra-cheap, dirty and dangerous sulphate aerosols - if opposition to the research of better options prevails. With unprecedented famines, what opponent of Geo-E would even get a hearing ?

Yet I'd well agree that we cannot know "the entirety of the effects and consequences of executing any one of the many Geo-E proposals." The same question may have been quite an issue among those who first contemplated coming down from the trees. Could they be entirely sure that the trees wouldn't simply keel over and die, brokenhearted at the loss of their inhabitants ?
(Note: this is a joke, not snark)

Quote
. . . .you have to consider the likely amounts of resources needed to execute and whether the other competing interests for those same resources are going to have precedence over your requirements.

As climate destabilization impacts global food security to the point of emergency, its control via Geo-E options will predictably face rather few competing interests. I gave a fairly comprehensive answer on the resource requirement for the best of the present options in a post to Ritter above, which may be of interest.

Regarding the date of the onset of mega-famines if effective mitigation is delayed, my contention is not of 2030 but rather within a decade. I laid out the scientific indicators for this in a general overview post near the foot of page six, which I hope may be of interest. I would note that your contention of agriculture enduring till 2050 seems complacent even in comparison with Prof Beddington (UK chief scientist) who put the crisis at around 2030 back in 2010.

The core issue of course is just what political pressure will be raised to advance the necessary reform of nations' priorities regarding agreement of commensurate global action on AGW. We have the huge assistance from rising extreme weather impacts in raising that pressure, but it is being badly undermined by people voicing their defeatism and lack of will to strive at all costs for a successful outcome. As I'm sure you don't wish to add to the difficulties and the mega-deaths from famine, perhaps you'd consider keeping your defeatism to yourself on public fora and instead talking up any prospect of success you can find ?

Regards,

Lewis

wili

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #265 on: May 18, 2013, 10:54:06 PM »
Can we avoid throwing names like "defeatism" around, here, please.

There are very legitimate concerns about geo-engineering, and frankly the more quickly its proponents dismiss such concerns as 'defeatism,' the less confident I am that they are on solid ground.

Laurent, I was referring to my paltry attempt to convert most of my postage-stamp-size lot over to native grasses and forbs, many of which keep 90% or so of their mass in the root system. I also do a bit of guerrilla gardening of the same species.

I don't pretend that this is any great part of the solution. Just one more tiny, tiny wedgelet.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Anne

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #266 on: May 18, 2013, 11:53:32 PM »
Eh, wili, sometimes I wish we had a like button here on the forum.

JimD

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #267 on: May 19, 2013, 12:09:59 AM »
...... but it is being badly undermined by people voicing their defeatism and lack of will to strive at all costs for a successful outcome. As I'm sure you don't wish to add to the difficulties and the mega-deaths from famine, perhaps you'd consider keeping your defeatism to yourself on public fora and instead talking up any prospect of success you can find ?

Regards,

Lewis

Lewis.  That. Was a pretty stupid thing to say (sorry Anne).

Realism is not defeatism.

My one and only concern is the survival of our species. 

One reason a large number of very competent scientists shy away from Geo-E solutions is because they are very dangerous in terms of  our not knowing all the effects they could have and it is easily possible we could make things worse.  We have little time to figure out all the ramifications of such actions.  Your rather cavalier attitude towards the prioritization of resources strongly implies you have little to no experience or knowledge in the issues of changing allocations and control of them.  Humans can be a tenacious lot you know.

Be that as it may, the real issue I have with proposed solutions like yours is that they are based upon a reliance on the entire human race completely changing its approach towards survival learned over thousands of generations, also its culture, over coming its prejudices, its fear of strangers, to name just a few items.  Buddy, no species is capable of such rapid change.  It just ain't going to happen and wishing for it will not help or work.

If you want to solve problems first you must identify them and understand them.  Then, and only then, do you sort through actions which are not only possible to execute but that will possibly facilitate a solution.  To put it somewhat bluntly I do not see such understanding in most analysis or proposed solutions. 

We will work our way through the dilemma we have placed ourselves in as a species within the confines of our nature.  For better or worse that is the only path open to us.  So, a proposed solution is dead on arrival if it does not conform to those requirements.

Since I don't think God or a technical miracle is going to save us I guess we will have to muddle through on our own. So, what is the no. 1 issue we have to fix?  What is the biggest thing we have done or are doing wrong as a species.  What exactly have we done wrong that created the vast majority of our problems and that makes the side effects of our existence so threatening to us.  Make solving that your priority and fix it as fast as possible.  That is your best chance for ensuring long-term survival. And that, ultimately, is all that counts.

Climate change is a symptom of the problem and fixing the symptom will not cure the disease so to speak.  Yes we have to stop emitting vast amounts of carbon and, at least, stop making the climate worse.  But, even if we did that, we would still be screwed as there are a host of other issues which are coming at us as well.  There are a number of non-climate issues that will eventually collapse agriculture on their own such as loss of top soil, lack of phosphates, access to sufficient water, pollution, etc.  There are looming energy supply issues, there are going to be critical shortages of all kinds of strategic minerals, etc.  All of these issues are driven by the fundamental fact that we chose to allow our population to reach 7+ billion people and we are continuing to add 80+ million a year and will, under some form of BAU, continue to do so until agricultural collapse occurs (whenever that might happen).  We are several times over the earth's carrying capacity and that has to be changed quickly.

Population is the penultimate issue that has to be dealt with.  Without dealing with it no other problem can be solved and when it is dealt with all other problems become amenable to solution or to being lived with.

We,  as a species, are facing a great dilemma.  Barring one of the above mentioned miracles we face two possibilities.  We are going to face a rapid population loss sooner... or later.   Should we prepare as best for collapse and let it happen or should we pull out all stops to delay it as long as possible in the hopes of preventing it?  I am pretty certain that I know what your answer is going to be.  I think that you need to be aware that there is going to be a large percentage of humanity that will take the first path vice the second.  Some will decide this way for logical reasons (for instance that path would leave more resources left for the survivors to pick up the pieces and go on) or because they are amongst the most wealthy and powerful and this solution is probably a good choice for them, but most who choose this path will do so because that path fits best with our basic nature that when danger threatens we hunker down and protect what we have, we prepare to take from others if necessary and we work as hard as possible towards the survival of our clan/tribe.  I should not need to tell you that if a large percentage of the population chooses to follow this path then everyone gets to follow it whether they like to or not.  Solution no.2 requires almost everyone to work in harmony or it fails and reverts to no. 1.  Therefore, it is going to be no 1.  Deal with it, plan for it, survive it, continue on.   An adage used in one of my former careers is applicable here, "Optimists die young." 
We do not err because truth is difficult to see. It is visible at a glance. We err because this is more comfortable. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

How is it conceivable that all our technological progress - our very civilization - is like the axe in the hand of the pathological criminal? Albert Einstein

Anne

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #268 on: May 19, 2013, 12:28:37 AM »
JimD, no need to say sorry to me! Sorry if my comment was ambiguous. I was seconding wili.  :) I don't agree with everything you say but I respect your experience and am dismayed at any attempt to silence you.

Anne

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #269 on: May 19, 2013, 02:49:23 AM »
Just reminding people that there is a private message facility on this site.

ggelsrinc

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #270 on: May 19, 2013, 07:01:21 AM »
I anticipate events causing global concern as people realize climate change is in the now and not something for future generations. I figure the world will go for stratospheric aerosols, because the solution is lower tech and cheap. Even if they figure out what the best kind of particle size is and how to effectively apply it, it will always run the risk of a volcano joining in on the fun. Adding acid to the atmosphere doesn't help the oceans and only removing the carbon can do that. Only a biological solution over years is big enough to remove that amount of carbon and yes bio-char will improve soil quality just like it did in the Amazon during past cultures. To make that or any system work, we need cheap alternative energy such as Thorium MSRs and quickly phasing out fossil fuels. Removing CO2 from the atmosphere is much more involved than putting it there and it will take highly productive economies to remove that atmospheric CO2.


ccgwebmaster

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #271 on: May 19, 2013, 12:54:09 PM »
I anticipate events causing global concern as people realize climate change is in the now and not something for future generations. I figure the world will go for stratospheric aerosols, because the solution is lower tech and cheap. Even if they figure out what the best kind of particle size is and how to effectively apply it, it will always run the risk of a volcano joining in on the fun.
Panic, financial market crashes, etc are what I expect the symptoms to be once people en masse realise climate change is now and not later. Pensions? Mortgages? Loans? Careers? What value do they have if the future itself comes into question? (to say nothing of critical resources like food and energy - those could become very valuable rather rapidly)

As for stratospheric sulphate aerosols, an important point in relation to these is that my understanding is we can't be sure they will help the Arctic situation at all - and may even make it worse (by reflecting heat back down in the winter). I believe that's based on model runs - not sure if it's borne out by any satellite data following volcanic eruptions. Even this intervention isn't as cheap and easy as people think - there isn't currently a good delivery mechanism, the fastest being the ad hoc method of adding sulphur to aeroplane fuel - even here, I am sure there are lots of questions nobody has answered.

With minimal or unhelpful impact on the Arctic, we'd need rather a lot of additional intervention to counter balance all that lost albedo I suspect as the process would continue, I presume with potentially ongoing adverse impacts on weather (wouldn't cooling the rest of the planet also make the thermal gradient driving the jet stream shallower?)

Humans aren't magicians, technology isn't going to ride to our rescue - and the one thing I've seen that sounded worth exploring aggressively has been almost totally ignored for long enough that it could've been turned into an option by now - assuming Stephen Salters figures materialised. With cloud brightening the idea was to cool the currents flowing into the Arctic (or in any other location) to discriminately attempt to intervene on a more localised scale. Beats widely dispersed sulphates any day.

It ought to be emphasised of course that there are several more necessary components to a minimum solution - all of which must be implemented to stand any chance for the majority of the population - and to which the difficulty of each component has only tended to increase over previous decades as societies chose collectively to ignore the problem and postpone it for their children or grandchildren to pay their price, even as they enjoyed running up the tab (metaphorically at least). Emissions must still be eliminated, greenhouse gas concentrations still cut in the atmosphere, the underlying social lessons learned and injustices corrected, and so on.

A rather improbable future, but the last hope for many people.

Shared Humanity

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #272 on: May 19, 2013, 07:56:35 PM »
I get heartburn whenever the discussion turns to geoengineering. This is not because I have the ability to assess the effectiveness of any specific suggestion.

I have had a 30 year career in electronics manufacturing, responsible for building very sophisticated electronic assemblies in large quantities. Business success is dependent on process control. Small drops in yield can drive a company out of business. There are four states that any process can be in:

1.)  In control, in spec (preferred)
2.)  In control, out of spec (2nd best)
3.)  Out of control, out of spec (3rd best)
4.)  Out of control, in spec (worst)

All processes have inputs and outputs. By controlling inputs and process parameters while having a deep understanding of process behavior you can achieve the desired output. If some input or process parameter shifts, you begin to see a rise in out of spec product. This one time change leaves the process in control but it is now delivering product that is out of spec. Studying the inputs and processes will allow you to identify the change and correct the input to bring this in control process back in spec. Companies pay very high salaries to engineers who are able to control complex processes.

When faced with out of spec product, poorly run companies will start monkeying with a variety of inputs and process parameters to deliver in spec product without understanding what they are doing. This will drive a process into the third state (out of control, out of spec) with wild swings in the quality of the product. If they are temporarily successful with all of the ill advised attempts to deliver good product, they arrive at the worst possible state (out of control, in spec). This is worse than the 3rd state because management (I was one of those) will develop a false sense of security that everything is OK.

As complicated as electronic processes are, they pale in comparison to the complexity of climate. People on this blog always talk about the difficulties in modeling climate. We simply do not have sufficient knowledge of how the various inputs (e.g. CO2) contribute to outputs (storms, heat waves, floods).

The earth was arguably "in control, in spec" before humans started increasing an input (CO2) into the climate process. We are beginning to see the effects in the form of "out of spec" results (drought/floods anyone?). The climate system is now "in control, out of spec". Our focus should be to bring this input back to previous levels. If the geoengineering suggestions focus on this, I think we are looking at the right things. Anything that enhances CO2 uptake would be fine. We see the planet do this with the seasonal cycling of CO2 levels. This is why I am attracted to ideas like accelerated weathering.

If we instead start changing other inputs or process parameters to accommodate for rising CO2 levels we will quickly move to "out of control, out of spec". Because we do not understand the climate process well enough, nothing good will come of this.

JimD

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #273 on: May 19, 2013, 08:31:45 PM »
In light of our discussions on the timing of the collapse of global agriculture I thought you might find the following of interest.

http://www.worldwatch.org/global-grain-production-record-high-despite-extreme-climatic-events-0

http://www.worldwatch.org/node/5539

Global grain production in 2012 totaled 2.4 billion tons and was an all time record.  Production was up 1% from 2011 in the face of significant climate/weather problem which affected production.

For instance corn production in the US was down 60 million tons from 2011 or 13%.  However, global corn production was up 4.1% from 2011, thus the rest of the world backed up the US production shortfall.

Global rice production in 2011 (no figures for 2012) was a record and 2.6% higher than 2010.

Global wheat production was down 3.6% from 2011.  Some of this decline was a choice by farmers to plant corn vice wheat as wheat prices had reduced demand for wheat for animal feed.  thus resulting in the record corn harvest.

From the 2nd link (dated 2007)
Quote
On average, humans get about 48 percent of their calories from grains, a share that has declined just slightly, from 50 percent, over the last four decades.....
.....People consume a little less than half (48 percent) of the world’s grain directly.. Roughly one third (35 percent) becomes livestock feed. And a growing share, 17 percent, is used to make ethanol and other fuels

These number demonstrate how much potential slack there is in the system.  As someone who follows The Oil Drum blog I know that using grains to make ethanol fuel started out as a corporate welfare program for farmers and the companies supplying them.  The intent was to raise corporate farming profits by increasing the demand for grains.  This claim is supported by studies which show that the EROEI for converting grains into ethanol fuel results in an EROEI of barely more than 1:1.  In other words it is a fuel conversion process not a fuel production process.

Now if we converted all that global grain production which is currently used for animal production and fuel conversion into straight human consumption it turns out that we are currently producing enough grain to entirely feed everyone on earth.  (Note:  I am not claiming that we could actually mandate such a change just that it is technically possible.)  On top of grain production you also have vegetable production (minus grains) and fish production.  Global fish production is approx. 154 million tons (2011) and includes aquaculture.  Global vegetable production is approx. 1 billion tons.

Roughly we are globally producing enough food products to feed 10.6 billion people at this time.  That number implies that climate change and fuel supply issues will have to degrade production by 33% before we no longer have enough food to feed everyone.  Factors which impact that 33% are further population increases (a really bad idea), potential production increases achieved by bringing additional land into production (certain to happen), shortfalls in fish production due to collapsing fish stocks (certain to happen), possible reductions in food wastage, much greater participation in home gardening, etc.

These numbers are part of the reasons why I do not think agriculture will collapse for some time.  There is a lot of slack in the system.

Edited to fix link.
We do not err because truth is difficult to see. It is visible at a glance. We err because this is more comfortable. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

How is it conceivable that all our technological progress - our very civilization - is like the axe in the hand of the pathological criminal? Albert Einstein

fishmahboi

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #274 on: May 19, 2013, 10:27:28 PM »
I remember seeing the same amount of optimism in certain news article that I have read on the topic. The only drawback is that I think we are going to be forced to rely heavily on Record Years in order to produce enough food for the global population.

JimD

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #275 on: May 20, 2013, 12:26:06 AM »
fish,

Well I think the numbers say a lot about what is likely to happen in the future.  After all, our accepting the science of climate change is based upon an acceptance of using data to figure out what happened and what is going to happen.  We should use data to try and figure this out as well.

Here is some more data to contemplate:  I only went back to 2003 so we can see what the effect of climate change has been over that time.  Tons are metric and equal 2200 lbs, hectare is 2.47 acres.

From this link:  Note that this source has 2012 at a different amount than the other source I linked too.  As always with such stats one can find different numbers but the scale of production is what I am talking about.

http://www.earth-policy.org/data_center/C24

2003    1864 billion tons     2.82 tons/hectare
2004    2043                      3.06
2005    2016                      3.00
2006    2005                      2.99
2007    2116                      3.09
2008    2243                      3.22
2009    2242                      3.25
2010    2201                      3.24
2011    2316                      3.34
2012    2241                      3.24

By this source total production has risen by 20% 2003-2012.  Yield per hectare has risen by 15%.  Total acreage in production has varied over that time from 661 to 669 million hectares with the high year being 2008 and last year 691. 

As one can see, total production is holding up pretty well as is yield per hectare.  As they say, past performance does not guarantee future performance.  But it is always best to base one's estimates on real data. 

Food shortages anywhere in the world at this time are strictly due to distribution and affordability issues.  Not that either of those are going away, but mass starvation, by the above data, is just not right around the corner.

A big part of the reduction in global grain supplies over the last 5 years is due to significant growth in feeding the grain to animals for meat production and very significantly due to converting grain into ethanol fuel as I pointed out previously.  Minus those 2 artificial impacts global grain supplies would not have seen anywhere near as big a reduction as there has been, if any. 
We do not err because truth is difficult to see. It is visible at a glance. We err because this is more comfortable. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

How is it conceivable that all our technological progress - our very civilization - is like the axe in the hand of the pathological criminal? Albert Einstein

JimD

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #276 on: May 20, 2013, 12:45:38 AM »
Another interesting stat.

From:

http://www.treehugger.com/sustainable-agriculture/global-grain-stocks-drop-dangerously-low-2012-consumption-exceeded-production.html

At the end of 2012 US corn stocks had dropped to only 15 days supply.  A record low.

But there is more to the story.  Ethanol production in 2012 used 114 million tons of corn.  If that corn had been put into stock vice making ethanol then US corn stocks at the end of 2012 would have risen to...160 days!  We can't even store that much in the US.

This is the real story behind the recent years of supply problems.  If the US produces like it is capable of grain prices are going to be so low that producers are in financial trouble.  So our favorite lobbyists come up with another solution to help us all out (snark).  We create a corporate ag welfare program that will use up the 'extra' supply, create demand, raise prices, allow the government to claim that it is being 'green' and take an extra bite out of the wallets of poor people all over the world.  A complete win as far as they are concerned.  What could possibly go wrong?  The Law of Unintended Consequences bites us in the ass once again.

We do not err because truth is difficult to see. It is visible at a glance. We err because this is more comfortable. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

How is it conceivable that all our technological progress - our very civilization - is like the axe in the hand of the pathological criminal? Albert Einstein

ccgwebmaster

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #277 on: May 20, 2013, 03:45:07 AM »
This is the real story behind the recent years of supply problems.  If the US produces like it is capable of grain prices are going to be so low that producers are in financial trouble.  So our favorite lobbyists come up with another solution to help us all out (snark).  We create a corporate ag welfare program that will use up the 'extra' supply, create demand, raise prices, allow the government to claim that it is being 'green' and take an extra bite out of the wallets of poor people all over the world.  A complete win as far as they are concerned.  What could possibly go wrong?  The Law of Unintended Consequences bites us in the ass once again.
That really is the issue in a sense. I wouldn't argue with the stats etc you can use to show that a rather large agricultural decline is needed to start to bite if sensible policies prevail.

Right now though, despite everyone (with half a brain) knowing biofuels are putting food commodities under price pressure sufficient to cause issues in some nations - the western nations are still consuming food in their engines. Rich people are still wasting food, an increasing number of people are still increasing meat consumption, population still rising, etc.

So I would argue it doesn't take as much as a 33% drop in agricultural production to cause serious issues as socioeconomic factors are not necessarily going to favourably align in any logical rational manner. Why would one suppose the amount of rationality would significantly increase from where it is now in all this? Because it makes sense? Or a more definite line in reasoning?

Notwithstanding theoretical slack in the agricultural supply - for as long as prices remain as high as they are it remains precisely that, theoretical slack (as opposed to actual).

If common sense solutions were going to be applied, why aren't they already? What probable trigger would cause them to be applied?

icebgone

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #278 on: May 20, 2013, 05:16:12 AM »
I wonder when the superbugs will begin to take over from the Ag Chemicals?  Will it be when the arctic ice is gone for the summer or will they wait until there is no ice at all.  Many insects have mutated defenses to individual chemicals.  Now they have to applied in combinations to have the desired control effect.  If the bugs win will they consume everything?

ggelsrinc

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #279 on: May 20, 2013, 09:33:01 AM »
I'm not trying to give you heartburn, Shared Humanity, but the way I look at it, we are presently geoengineering the Earth by adding greenhouse gases and that should give everybody heartburn, because all our wellbeing depends on this Earth.

I have evaluated the concepts behind geoengineering and technological energy advances and have tried to do so in the most unbiased manner. ccwebmaster mentioned several points about stratospheric aerosols that run contrary to my research. First off, if the poles are becoming too warm and creating problems with the jet stream, because of the temperature difference between the equator and poles, cooling the poles and not the whole Earth is the smart thing to do. Secondly, a volcano is hell of a better model than a computer when it comes to cooling the Earth with stratospheric aerosols. Is there evidence of polar consequences from past volcanic eruptions? The troposhere is thinner at the poles (9 km) instead of 17 km at the equator. An Antonov An-225 Mriya has a service ceiling of 11,000 meters and a Lockheed C-5 Galaxy has 10,600 meters. These are the largest military cargo transports and smaller ones have even a higher service ceilings. With added oxygen tanks, cargo airplanes can go as high as their design gives them lift, so it is quite possible to delivery large amounts of material to the stratosphere and doing so is low tech. The idea of putting sulfur in jet fuel and just flying around doesn't solve the problem of particle size and distribution, but I'm not totally ruling out the concept as a boost. Sulfur is a fuel and from what I recall of studying sulphate aerosols, the best results require making small particules of sulfuric acid, which means water needs to be added to SO3. I'm not aware of research to obtain the best results from a delivery system, but my guess would be to use military cargo transport and satellites to monitor distribution. I also don't know if we have a satellite system that can properly detect stratospheric sulphates and monitor levels, but initially levels could be monitored by the aircraft deliverying the sulphates. The price tag I've seen on this geoengineering is several billions of dollars per year and it may give the world time to change it's direction. I don't support rushing in there and doing it, but I do support researching the best way to quickly and properly get it done.

If you believe in global warming and I think the people on this site do, claiming warmer means drier is crappy science. The Earth has been going through glaciation changes for a couple of million years, so the idea that the Earth has a stable climate is bogus. Only major changes in climate patterns can explain the Sahara becoming green during interglacial thermal maximums, because monsoons have to change direction and travel north. Whether the Earth does it by changing solar irradiance over time or man does so by adding radiative forcing with greenhouse gases doesn't change the outcome by much. Milankovitch changes during the Eemian meant the Northern Hemisphere was getting more direct sunlight and the Sahara was green for 30,000 years. That means the Earth can get hot enough to melt GIS with mankind living in caves. Adding greenhouse gases is a more general warming of the Earth than direct sunlight from Milankovitch changes, even if the poles are warming faster as explected. The fact is that's what the poles always do that and it's logical for them to do so. This is not new territory on planet Earth and there are plenty of scientific studies showing consistent outcomes of warming the Earth more than it presently is.

A question for fishmahboi! What would be the cost of mining and applying enough limestone dust to counteract man's acidification of the oceans and major waters?  It's been done in lakes with acid rain destroying the habitat. With ships plying the oceans all the time, there certainly should be an easy mechanism to return the pH to proper levels for surface water and there are plenty of references from Earth's past more carbon times, though a distinction of purely using CO2 levels is warranted. I also have a question about the missing CO2 during glacial maximums, so if 100 ppm of CO2 left the atmosphere during glacial maximums, where did it go? I certainly believe the biosphere had less carbon during glacial maximums, but I don't think that much carbon can get trapped in land masses covered with ice. The carbon shutdown for the atmosphere would have to happen both at seas and land masses, but where did that carbon in CO2 go during glaciation when an ocean has less volume of water, so it's pH has to be high? What was the pH of that ocean, because the ancestors of all the ocean creatures had to live through that and not that long ago?

I don't see anything wrong with warning about ocean acidification or any of the changes man has made to planet Earth, but I do see something wrong with making disaster predictions totally contrary to known science. The truth is we don't know enough to monkey around with the Earth, but we do know it's been warmer and colder than it presently is. We presently live in a world that rapidly changes from warm interglacials to cold glaciation and Archaeological evidence proves that world is not at climate stasis during interglacial warm periods. The last time the Earth was warmer, mankind started forming cities because of the abundance of food, but now the Doomsayers claim it's the end of the world if the Earth returns to those times. The time before that, the Earth had hippos and water buffalo in the Thames and Rhine. That means the winters can't be too cold for too long or those species couldn't exist there. There are plenty of northern places on Earth where species have existed before and you can't get them to live there now, because the climate is too cold.

The only way we will ever get human beings to care about global warming is either intellectually or if they feel global warming is biting them in the ass. It's only human nature to dismiss warnings of doom. I've seen claims that a warmer Earth is drier and that is nonsense. These claims about famine associated with a warmer Earth are nonsense. Overall the world will become more productive in agriculture with it warming, but people don't live in the whole world, so even if it's totally better, there will be some big time losers in certain locations.

I've looked at maps for food production and the common theme is it's too cold north to make more food than we presently do. I can post the maps for you, but they are easy to get in wiki just by researching the staples. I've looked at corn, rice, wheat, millet, soybean and potato and they have world production maps showing the area producing the products. It's only logical and common sense that northern areas are more cold stressed to reduce yields than southern areas have been warmed and since trees existed next to the Arctic Ocean in the past, there is plenty of room to expand agricultural production northward. The logic behind this massive famine caused by global warming rests on the assumption that mankind is at it's food production limit and that is a bogus claim. The majority of food production is done to accommodate established markets, because a farmer will go broke mindlessly producing without a means to sell their product. It doesn't take much land to produce more food than people want, so try it sometime and see if you can even give away the food! It's not that hard to produce food and I don't see people giving up mowing their lawns to create food.

Now I grant that climate change will cause a period of instablility as climate patterns change, but that is instability on top of a prior unstable world. I expect food prices to increase in the developed areas, because the market will allow an increase. The notion that mankind has lived on a planet with a stable climate is bogus. Whole civilizations weren't flushed down the toilet in our recent past and agriculture is and has been a gamble against the elements, since it's creation. North and South America are rich in Archaeological evidence of past civilizations being done in by climate change, long before industrialized mankind became it's present factor to change the climate. What we need is a system that values human life and our environment. No civilization on Earth should have to suffer the consequences of modern man using fossil fuels and somebody wil lose out, even if the Earth changes to a better overall state for food production.  Society needs to advance enough and value people more than the price of how it once enslaved them. My days on Earth will be much more satisfying when someone somewhere on Earth isn't suffering, but I'm sure the people involved in the suffering are more concerned about it than I am.

ggelsrinc

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #280 on: May 20, 2013, 01:03:20 PM »
This is the real story behind the recent years of supply problems.  If the US produces like it is capable of grain prices are going to be so low that producers are in financial trouble.  So our favorite lobbyists come up with another solution to help us all out (snark).  We create a corporate ag welfare program that will use up the 'extra' supply, create demand, raise prices, allow the government to claim that it is being 'green' and take an extra bite out of the wallets of poor people all over the world.  A complete win as far as they are concerned.  What could possibly go wrong?  The Law of Unintended Consequences bites us in the ass once again.
That really is the issue in a sense. I wouldn't argue with the stats etc you can use to show that a rather large agricultural decline is needed to start to bite if sensible policies prevail.

Right now though, despite everyone (with half a brain) knowing biofuels are putting food commodities under price pressure sufficient to cause issues in some nations - the western nations are still consuming food in their engines. Rich people are still wasting food, an increasing number of people are still increasing meat consumption, population still rising, etc.

So I would argue it doesn't take as much as a 33% drop in agricultural production to cause serious issues as socioeconomic factors are not necessarily going to favourably align in any logical rational manner. Why would one suppose the amount of rationality would significantly increase from where it is now in all this? Because it makes sense? Or a more definite line in reasoning?

Notwithstanding theoretical slack in the agricultural supply - for as long as prices remain as high as they are it remains precisely that, theoretical slack (as opposed to actual).

If common sense solutions were going to be applied, why aren't they already? What probable trigger would cause them to be applied?

Have you owned a farm? I'm still suffering from my youth so I do all my farming at Acme and Walmarts along with all my hunting, which I never was involved in. My dad came from farms in West Virginia and I remember his garden being a poor investment of both time and money. The fact is all you need to grow a plant is room, nutrients and water. Have you ever spent enough of your life picking a bushel of beans to question whether doing so is worth the effort, even if the beans are free? What if you were given a bunch of beans, you have to string and break them into pieces to cook them and bushels are only used for canning. Farmers had large families because many of the chores required mass participation to accomplish. Try growing a tenth of an acre in lima or string beans and see how many hours it takes to harvest that crop! I solute anyone willing to do those tasks, but I'd have to be starving to do it myself.

Let's evaluate Pawpaws or Asimina! I can understand the appeal of a plant having insect repellant qualities, but what about the Pyrethrins in Chrysanthemums? Plants have been doing chemical warfare against insects for millions of years and long enough to develop Neurotoxins. The problem with the fruit of Pawpaws is it's seasonal and no one has figured out a good way to preserve it for commercial use. The only way I know to preserve it is to freeze or dehydrate it, which both destroy the banana like texture. I don't recall trying the juice, but any juice can be preserved with the right concentration and chemicals. When was the last time you had peach juice and I ask because even if a juice will taste good doesn't mean it can be marketed? Pawpaws aren't that exciting in their native area of the world, but I give the plant do credit. If you want a story about a plant that has met it's man, consider Asimina tetramera! Here is a variety of Pawpaw that is long lived and able to spend it's time dormant underground. There are less than a thousand plants left in Florida in 17 locations probably because the plant is a victim of our desire to put out fires and it needs fires to clear areas to grow. I keep thinking back about all those seeds in Pawpaw fruit and can't understand why mankind can't grow the plant, if they take away it's environment. Just what part of room, nutrients and water can't they figure out?


SteveMDFP

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #281 on: May 20, 2013, 01:21:58 PM »

.....
By using natural seawater for cloud brightening those concerns can potentially be resolved. Water rains out of the atmosphere in just nine days on average, meaning that the operation can be focussed on areas where any unhelpful changes in rainfall can occur over the oceans, rather than posing a global effect. In this sense it is a precision tool for planetary cooling, rather than a blunt instrument. It is also feasible for localized trials, whose effect can be halted in nine days if necessary, while the stratospheric options can only be at the global scale, with a halt-period of 2 years for the use of sulphates.
 

Lots of people are likely to read this and say:  "No effing way!  We'll just screw thing up worse, but differently."  And thus there's likely to be little funding, even for small trials.

That is, until a trial shows, say, dramatically improved rainfall and crop yields in the California Central Valley.  Then Ag interests will demand public funding, or even (gasp!) use their own money to roll this out big-time, if it works.

There is a novel approach to ocean fertilization with iron dust that warrants some consideration here. The basic problems of stimulating organic growth being limited by the next mineral shortfall, and the worse problem of that growth falling to the seabed where its decay depletes oxygen levels, after which it decays to produce highly poisonous gas, are potentially resolved by this new approach. It proposes fertilizing areas of deep ocean that currently produce little plankton with an appropriate blend of minerals to generate massive plankton volumes. Rather than leaving these to die off, appropriate species of krill would be established to graze the plankton and grow to massive volumes per year. The trawling of these and their use for biochar would reportedly provide a very significant carbon sequestration in their own right.
 

Well, that krill is likely to be needed for human mouths. 

A thought occurred to me that I've not seen anywhere before.  There's a huge Texas-sized sea of floating trash in the Pacific, almost all plastic.  A fairly simple global treaty might be enacted that requires any producer of any plastic to incorporate traces of Iron, perhaps also Phosphate, in any plastic that has any remote chance of ending up floating in the ocean.

That plastic doesn't just stay there, with weathering effects, it slowly breaks down, and would very slowly release iron (+/- phosphate) to feed plankton.

No, we wouldn't purposely dump that new plastic into the ocean, but as we seem unable to prevent it ending up in the ocean, we may as well use our species' dirty ways to SOME good effect.  I'm guessing ocean productivity in the oceans could be enhanced tremendously, at very reasonable cost that would broadly end up coming from users of plastic, which would be very appropriate.

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #282 on: May 20, 2013, 03:56:09 PM »
This is the real story behind the recent years of supply problems.  If the US produces like it is capable of grain prices are going to be so low that producers are in financial trouble.  So our favorite lobbyists come up with another solution to help us all out (snark).  We create a corporate ag welfare program that will use up the 'extra' supply, create demand, raise prices, allow the government to claim that it is being 'green' and take an extra bite out of the wallets of poor people all over the world.  A complete win as far as they are concerned.  What could possibly go wrong?  The Law of Unintended Consequences bites us in the ass once again.
That really is the issue in a sense. I wouldn't argue with the stats etc you can use to show that a rather large agricultural decline is needed to start to bite if sensible policies prevail.

Right now though, despite everyone (with half a brain) knowing biofuels are putting food commodities under price pressure sufficient to cause issues in some nations - the western nations are still consuming food in their engines. Rich people are still wasting food, an increasing number of people are still increasing meat consumption, population still rising, etc.

So I would argue it doesn't take as much as a 33% drop in agricultural production to cause serious issues as socioeconomic factors are not necessarily going to favourably align in any logical rational manner. Why would one suppose the amount of rationality would significantly increase from where it is now in all this? Because it makes sense? Or a more definite line in reasoning?

Notwithstanding theoretical slack in the agricultural supply - for as long as prices remain as high as they are it remains precisely that, theoretical slack (as opposed to actual).

If common sense solutions were going to be applied, why aren't they already? What probable trigger would cause them to be applied?

I agree. In 2011, with fully functioning markets and record (or near record) agricultural production, 66 million (.94%) people starved to death and another 975 million (13.9%) were suffering from chronic malnutrition. Chronic malnutrition is a U.N. euphemism for starving to death. I am very skeptical the situation will improve as global warming gets worse.

ccgwebmaster

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #283 on: May 20, 2013, 04:52:24 PM »
Have you owned a farm? I'm still suffering from my youth so I do all my farming at Acme and Walmarts along with all my hunting, which I never was involved in. My dad came from farms in West Virginia and I remember his garden being a poor investment of both time and money. The fact is all you need to grow a plant is room, nutrients and water. Have you ever spent enough of your life picking a bushel of beans to question whether doing so is worth the effort, even if the beans are free? What if you were given a bunch of beans, you have to string and break them into pieces to cook them and bushels are only used for canning. Farmers had large families because many of the chores required mass participation to accomplish. Try growing a tenth of an acre in lima or string beans and see how many hours it takes to harvest that crop! I solute anyone willing to do those tasks, but I'd have to be starving to do it myself.
Never been anywhere near wealthy enough to own a farm - or even land - but I did take on a couple of derelict allotments a few years ago in the UK. We (myself, my mother and then wife) reclaimed them and grew - entirely through manual effort with almost nil chemical inputs (excepting slug pellets) quite a few things. For example we grew enough potatoes to meet our collective needs for each whole year, same with jerusalem artichokes. Enough of some seasonal things (beans particularly) to have a glut when they came in. Plus various other things on a smaller scale.

Bear in mind that was done around full time jobs for all involved, as well as still spending time doing other things. Worth the time? Definitely - it was good exercise, the best quality produce it is possible to get (shop stuff is never truly fresh) and I expanded greatly upon my childhood experiences of growing things - gaining useful experience in the event I should need to fall back upon subsistence agriculture to eat.

Let's evaluate Pawpaws or Asimina! I can understand the appeal of a plant having insect repellant qualities, but what about the Pyrethrins in Chrysanthemums? Plants have been doing chemical warfare against insects for millions of years and long enough to develop Neurotoxins. The problem with the fruit of Pawpaws is it's seasonal and no one has figured out a good way to preserve it for commercial use. The only way I know to preserve it is to freeze or dehydrate it, which both destroy the banana like texture. I don't recall trying the juice, but any juice can be preserved with the right concentration and chemicals. When was the last time you had peach juice and I ask because even if a juice will taste good doesn't mean it can be marketed? Pawpaws aren't that exciting in their native area of the world, but I give the plant do credit. If you want a story about a plant that has met it's man, consider Asimina tetramera! Here is a variety of Pawpaw that is long lived and able to spend it's time dormant underground. There are less than a thousand plants left in Florida in 17 locations probably because the plant is a victim of our desire to put out fires and it needs fires to clear areas to grow. I keep thinking back about all those seeds in Pawpaw fruit and can't understand why mankind can't grow the plant, if they take away it's environment. Just what part of room, nutrients and water can't they figure out?
Why do you think it's so simple to grow plants? It isn't just room, nutrients and water. Someone else gave a nice concise list earlier in this thread - but there is a large number of relevant factors that matter.

Fencing a plant off from the herbivores that graze upon it should allow it to flourish, right?

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=of-ants-elephants-and-acacias

I suggest not - the problem is far more complex than one might think. Toss a seed adapted to your climate and local growing conditions into the ground and you may well get the impression it is just room, nutrients and water. Good luck once you start to take those plants out of their adapted conditions (even many commercial crops still rely upon insect pollination!).

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #284 on: May 20, 2013, 05:30:58 PM »
I have evaluated the concepts behind geoengineering and technological energy advances and have tried to do so in the most unbiased manner. ccwebmaster mentioned several points about stratospheric aerosols that run contrary to my research. First off, if the poles are becoming too warm and creating problems with the jet stream, because of the temperature difference between the equator and poles, cooling the poles and not the whole Earth is the smart thing to do.
With reference to http://www.atmos-chem-phys.net/10/5999/2010/acp-10-5999-2010.pdf

I was saying models appear to predict that using sulphates may cause further warming of the Arctic (see Fig 2). Of course it is smart to cool the polar region(s) relative to the rest of the planet - my point is that it looks as though sulphates may do the exact opposite.

Also alluded to indirectly here:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/01/120125142212.htm

Using cloud brightening locally (possible due to the short residence time in the atmosphere) would let you try to cool the ocean before it flows into the Arctic.

If this point is contrary to your research, I'd be curious to know what you have? And how increased sulphate aerosols over the Arctic during the winter do not run a risk of reflecting radiation back down to the planet in that area?

General stuff (maybe geo-engineering, particularly with an Arctic theme deserves it's own topic somewhere, it's pushing the constraints of this one a bit):
http://rsta.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/366/1882/4007.long

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #285 on: May 20, 2013, 07:32:52 PM »
ggelsrinc
Quote
These claims about famine associated with a warmer Earth are nonsense. Overall the world will become more productive in agriculture with it warming, but people don't live in the whole world, so even if it's totally better, there will be some big time losers in certain locations.

I've looked at maps for food production and the common theme is it's too cold north to make more food than we presently do. I can post the maps for you, but they are easy to get in wiki just by researching the staples. I've looked at corn, rice, wheat, millet, soybean and potato and they have world production maps showing the area producing the products. It's only logical and common sense that northern areas are more cold stressed to reduce yields than southern areas have been warmed and since trees existed next to the Arctic Ocean in the past, there is plenty of room to expand agricultural production northward. The logic behind this massive famine caused by global warming rests on the assumption that mankind is at it's food production limit and that is a bogus claim. The majority of food production is done to accommodate established markets, because a farmer will go broke mindlessly producing without a means to sell their product. It doesn't take much land to produce more food than people want, so try it sometime and see if you can even give away the food! It's not that hard to produce food and I don't see people giving up mowing their lawns to create food.

I am a little unsure how to respond to the above.  In one respect you are seeming to support my contention that the collapse of industrial agriculture is quite a ways in the future still.  However, almost all of the reasons above you give to support your position are incorrect based upon my knowledge of agriculture and climate science.

To wit:  You are confusing Thermal Maximum conditions in the high latitudes with what the conditions are going to be like in 30-40 years.  you cannot do this.  In the northern hemisphere the fertility of the soils as one moves north towards the poles becomes less favorable to  agriculture production.  Growing seasons are shorter.  The weather conditions, while generally warmer, are going to remain volatile and there will still be frequent cold snaps and frosts/freezes.  Soils will not warm as quickly in the spring as they do farther south and this will retard planting and seed germination.  Fall frost will still be earlier.  Available sunlight is always going to be less optimal than further south. Your argument that a warmer world is wetter is correct, but the real issue is that rainfall patterns are quickly changing and what we should expect are longer and hotter dry spells,  more intense rainfall and less even rains.  Lastly, as someone else mentioned we can expect significant pest and plant disease problems as time goes on.  Agriculture is not going to be more productive going forward in any significant amount (unless we have big breakthroughs in GMO crops, and chemistry - not my favorite idea by the way) and there are very good arguments out there that ag productivity has already plateaued and what we should expect to happen in the next 20 years or so is the setting in of a  long decline in productivity.

We can and will push the industrial ag system hard from here on in until we can't any longer.  As you say, and as I have shown with the numbers above, there is slack in the system and if we improve in the areas possible and eliminate policies which burn food in vehicles we can handle significant declines in yields.  For a limited period of time. Just when that time is is, of course, the question.    I have seen no reasoning that supports a timeframe beyond about 2050 for major shortfalls in food production.
We do not err because truth is difficult to see. It is visible at a glance. We err because this is more comfortable. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

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ritter

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #286 on: May 20, 2013, 10:55:34 PM »
Ritter - there are a couple of points you may want to consider.

Lewis,

Thanks for the response. Unfortunately, you have not salved my fears. I suppose I should have included wisdom and leadership in my statement as we lack either of those as well to sufficiently address the problem. I remain convinced that our goose is cooked with or without geoengineering (sort of a too little, too late deal). I also do not consider this defeatism, rather a firm grip on reality.

ggelsrinc

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #287 on: May 21, 2013, 03:16:19 AM »
ggelsrinc
Quote
These claims about famine associated with a warmer Earth are nonsense. Overall the world will become more productive in agriculture with it warming, but people don't live in the whole world, so even if it's totally better, there will be some big time losers in certain locations.

I've looked at maps for food production and the common theme is it's too cold north to make more food than we presently do. I can post the maps for you, but they are easy to get in wiki just by researching the staples. I've looked at corn, rice, wheat, millet, soybean and potato and they have world production maps showing the area producing the products. It's only logical and common sense that northern areas are more cold stressed to reduce yields than southern areas have been warmed and since trees existed next to the Arctic Ocean in the past, there is plenty of room to expand agricultural production northward. The logic behind this massive famine caused by global warming rests on the assumption that mankind is at it's food production limit and that is a bogus claim. The majority of food production is done to accommodate established markets, because a farmer will go broke mindlessly producing without a means to sell their product. It doesn't take much land to produce more food than people want, so try it sometime and see if you can even give away the food! It's not that hard to produce food and I don't see people giving up mowing their lawns to create food.

I am a little unsure how to respond to the above.  In one respect you are seeming to support my contention that the collapse of industrial agriculture is quite a ways in the future still.  However, almost all of the reasons above you give to support your position are incorrect based upon my knowledge of agriculture and climate science.

To wit:  You are confusing Thermal Maximum conditions in the high latitudes with what the conditions are going to be like in 30-40 years.  you cannot do this.  In the northern hemisphere the fertility of the soils as one moves north towards the poles becomes less favorable to  agriculture production.  Growing seasons are shorter.  The weather conditions, while generally warmer, are going to remain volatile and there will still be frequent cold snaps and frosts/freezes.  Soils will not warm as quickly in the spring as they do farther south and this will retard planting and seed germination.  Fall frost will still be earlier.  Available sunlight is always going to be less optimal than further south. Your argument that a warmer world is wetter is correct, but the real issue is that rainfall patterns are quickly changing and what we should expect are longer and hotter dry spells,  more intense rainfall and less even rains.  Lastly, as someone else mentioned we can expect significant pest and plant disease problems as time goes on.  Agriculture is not going to be more productive going forward in any significant amount (unless we have big breakthroughs in GMO crops, and chemistry - not my favorite idea by the way) and there are very good arguments out there that ag productivity has already plateaued and what we should expect to happen in the next 20 years or so is the setting in of a  long decline in productivity.

We can and will push the industrial ag system hard from here on in until we can't any longer.  As you say, and as I have shown with the numbers above, there is slack in the system and if we improve in the areas possible and eliminate policies which burn food in vehicles we can handle significant declines in yields.  For a limited period of time. Just when that time is is, of course, the question.    I have seen no reasoning that supports a timeframe beyond about 2050 for major shortfalls in food production.

I'm not confusing Thermal Maximum conditions in high latitudes with our present Earth, because causing warming sets the motion for the Earth to go to another thermal maximum, but such changes take time. The facts point to major changes in climate patterns during our Holocene interglacial as evidence with changes in the Sahara. The Sahara is big enough to affect climate, whether it's a desert or not. Since we know for a fact that the Sahara was green and the monsoon patterns were changed, it doesn't surprise me that major climate pattern changes are necessary for that to occur. It doesn't surprise me that there will be more precipitation as the world warms, but it must surprise people using computer models to claim worldwide drought in 2060.

What the Thermal Maximums should tell a scientist is here is a real life Earth showing the consequences of warming. Our 400 ppm CO2 Earth is not going to behave like the 400 ppm CO2 Pliocene Earth that had different thermohaline circulation, it's going to behave like it did during the Holocene Thermal Maximum and the Eemian. Every area of the Earth doesn't have a fossil record of the HTM and Eemian, but there is usually a record not that far away to give details about that past climate for that area which is the best guess of what the future climate will be. It only makes sense that future warming will imitate past warming, so what present warming trend runs contrary to thermal maximum data?

Here is an interesting thing I came across and used against Denialistas who tend to talk about the expense of making changes for global warming. The first part of the video is interesting too, but around 8:30 a gentlemen giving a representation as a reinsurer (insurers that insure insurance companies) makes a point that they were assessing risk from climate change since 1973. I found the chart he used to show that a person in 2010 was around 2.5 times more likely to be a victim of a natural catastrophy than a person 30 years earlier in 1980 and the increase is climate related. Reinsurers aren't in business to lose money so any risk they believe they are taking is reflected in their rates and rates the insurance companies they insure charge consumers. That means someone having insurance since 1973 has been paying for global warming, whether they know it or not and that date is fascinating because there wasn't much concern about climate change in academic cycles at that time. There should be some good data on crop loses that adjust for price and look at incidents. Someone in crop insurance should have data that can properly assess risks.





Here are some maps for world food production.













It isn't poor soil preventing food production in the north, it's a shortened growing season caused by the cold. Notice the difference in corn and wheat production in the Great Plains and compare it to Manchuria! As the Earth warms the growing season in the north becomes longer and that allows food production to expand in the north. Notice also that food production tends to follow population trends. The fact that there are the Great Plains and places like it on Earth indicates grasses are preferred over trees in those locations, so it's only natural that wheat would grow well there. Notice also that the areas for producing wheat and potatos are very similar in Eurasia!

I remember seeing a short documentary as a child at the movies showing hugh vegetables being grown in Alaska and that was long before global warming concerns. The food looked like it was made for giants, things like carrots longer than your arm. That was a case of someone knowing what they were doing. In Chemistry we call it cooking when we follow the process to get the desired results and sometimes the whole process can be very complicated. The same kind of discipline is required in the kitchen, garden or lab. If you do it right, you will get the desired results. The failures in commercial agriculture involve being subject to variables, like rain. That's why irrigated marginal land that is well drained can become very productive because it removes the important variable of water from being a concern. It isn't that hard to test and add nutrients and the cost of adding the nutrients can be reduced by maintaining proper humus levels. Without some buried organics to bind the nutrients, they will drain away from the soil adding expense to replace them. That said, what percentage of the world's crops are grown with conditions to optimize yield? When farmers get 20 cents of the dollar spent on food, someone is looking out for their interests in that remaining 80 cents and the commodity has to already exist at that point.

The whole story on the corn/ethanol deal also involves our government purchasing corn to maintain prices and paying to store it as it rotted away. I recall visiting a farm of a friend back then who raised Appaloosa horses and his father and he were in the corn business, growing some on their property and using their corn equipment on additional fields to justify it's cost, which wasn't cheap. Even with a full time well paying job off the farm, the corn business then was very risky and farmers were struggling. If that equipment broke down in the field, some machinist skills were usually required to get it operational.

Another part of the ethanol story involves it replacing the carcinogen MTBE, which replaced the neurotoxin tetraethyl lead. Methanol would also work and ethanol can be made with crops like sugar beets or cane, so less corn is required. Corn is only food if something gets to eat it and paying for storage so it can rot away with starving people in the world doesn't make good sense. 

ggelsrinc

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #288 on: May 21, 2013, 04:49:29 AM »
Have you owned a farm? I'm still suffering from my youth so I do all my farming at Acme and Walmarts along with all my hunting, which I never was involved in. My dad came from farms in West Virginia and I remember his garden being a poor investment of both time and money. The fact is all you need to grow a plant is room, nutrients and water. Have you ever spent enough of your life picking a bushel of beans to question whether doing so is worth the effort, even if the beans are free? What if you were given a bunch of beans, you have to string and break them into pieces to cook them and bushels are only used for canning. Farmers had large families because many of the chores required mass participation to accomplish. Try growing a tenth of an acre in lima or string beans and see how many hours it takes to harvest that crop! I solute anyone willing to do those tasks, but I'd have to be starving to do it myself.
Never been anywhere near wealthy enough to own a farm - or even land - but I did take on a couple of derelict allotments a few years ago in the UK. We (myself, my mother and then wife) reclaimed them and grew - entirely through manual effort with almost nil chemical inputs (excepting slug pellets) quite a few things. For example we grew enough potatoes to meet our collective needs for each whole year, same with jerusalem artichokes. Enough of some seasonal things (beans particularly) to have a glut when they came in. Plus various other things on a smaller scale.

Bear in mind that was done around full time jobs for all involved, as well as still spending time doing other things. Worth the time? Definitely - it was good exercise, the best quality produce it is possible to get (shop stuff is never truly fresh) and I expanded greatly upon my childhood experiences of growing things - gaining useful experience in the event I should need to fall back upon subsistence agriculture to eat.

Let's evaluate Pawpaws or Asimina! I can understand the appeal of a plant having insect repellant qualities, but what about the Pyrethrins in Chrysanthemums? Plants have been doing chemical warfare against insects for millions of years and long enough to develop Neurotoxins. The problem with the fruit of Pawpaws is it's seasonal and no one has figured out a good way to preserve it for commercial use. The only way I know to preserve it is to freeze or dehydrate it, which both destroy the banana like texture. I don't recall trying the juice, but any juice can be preserved with the right concentration and chemicals. When was the last time you had peach juice and I ask because even if a juice will taste good doesn't mean it can be marketed? Pawpaws aren't that exciting in their native area of the world, but I give the plant do credit. If you want a story about a plant that has met it's man, consider Asimina tetramera! Here is a variety of Pawpaw that is long lived and able to spend it's time dormant underground. There are less than a thousand plants left in Florida in 17 locations probably because the plant is a victim of our desire to put out fires and it needs fires to clear areas to grow. I keep thinking back about all those seeds in Pawpaw fruit and can't understand why mankind can't grow the plant, if they take away it's environment. Just what part of room, nutrients and water can't they figure out?
Why do you think it's so simple to grow plants? It isn't just room, nutrients and water. Someone else gave a nice concise list earlier in this thread - but there is a large number of relevant factors that matter.

Fencing a plant off from the herbivores that graze upon it should allow it to flourish, right?

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=of-ants-elephants-and-acacias

I suggest not - the problem is far more complex than one might think. Toss a seed adapted to your climate and local growing conditions into the ground and you may well get the impression it is just room, nutrients and water. Good luck once you start to take those plants out of their adapted conditions (even many commercial crops still rely upon insect pollination!).

An area of the world that doesn't provide the conditions for a plant or animal to live isn't giving the species a room.

Your article states that unique ant acacia relationship is specific to that particular acacia species and other types of acacia are thriving with the loss of grazers. Plenty of species have interdependence and some plants can require specific pollinators. There are also plants that are dependent on wildfire, like that poor Florida Pawpaw and some of the pines out west.

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #289 on: May 21, 2013, 05:41:07 AM »
An area of the world that doesn't provide the conditions for a plant or animal to live isn't giving the species a room.

Your article states that unique ant acacia relationship is specific to that particular acacia species and other types of acacia are thriving with the loss of grazers. Plenty of species have interdependence and some plants can require specific pollinators. There are also plants that are dependent on wildfire, like that poor Florida Pawpaw and some of the pines out west.
The acacia example was just quoted as an example of how in reality things get a lot more complicated than you seem to think. The fact that it only applies to that particular acacia species is even more illustrative of the level of complexity that can affect how plants perform in different places. This is why some crops cannot be cultivated and we still rely upon the plants in the wild (I believe brazil nuts fall into this category for instance - certainly they're another example of specific conditions - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil_nut).

I guess you're taking all those factors in their complexity and saying "a room" - but when one is talking about adapting agriculture by human intervention, you can't do that. It then becomes necessary to consider all the complexity and meet all the required factors for a plant yourself. Historically we've done this over thousands of years (matched crops to locations and bred them for success in those conditions). Now we have decades (according to the optimists) or years (if one believes dramatic changes are occurring on that timescale) to do the same.

Worse, we don't even know how things will go. The predictability of the system is degrading. We don't even really know what the transition process looks like and we don't know either what the equilibrium looks like (you can quote 400ppm paleoclimate worlds all you want - but whether it's from ongoing human emissions or large scale positive feedbacks, 400ppm is just another data point we're going to blast past on the way to something higher and possibly a lot higher).

ggelsrinc

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #290 on: May 21, 2013, 09:12:11 AM »
An area of the world that doesn't provide the conditions for a plant or animal to live isn't giving the species a room.

Your article states that unique ant acacia relationship is specific to that particular acacia species and other types of acacia are thriving with the loss of grazers. Plenty of species have interdependence and some plants can require specific pollinators. There are also plants that are dependent on wildfire, like that poor Florida Pawpaw and some of the pines out west.
The acacia example was just quoted as an example of how in reality things get a lot more complicated than you seem to think. The fact that it only applies to that particular acacia species is even more illustrative of the level of complexity that can affect how plants perform in different places. This is why some crops cannot be cultivated and we still rely upon the plants in the wild (I believe brazil nuts fall into this category for instance - certainly they're another example of specific conditions - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil_nut).

I guess you're taking all those factors in their complexity and saying "a room" - but when one is talking about adapting agriculture by human intervention, you can't do that. It then becomes necessary to consider all the complexity and meet all the required factors for a plant yourself. Historically we've done this over thousands of years (matched crops to locations and bred them for success in those conditions). Now we have decades (according to the optimists) or years (if one believes dramatic changes are occurring on that timescale) to do the same.

Worse, we don't even know how things will go. The predictability of the system is degrading. We don't even really know what the transition process looks like and we don't know either what the equilibrium looks like (you can quote 400ppm paleoclimate worlds all you want - but whether it's from ongoing human emissions or large scale positive feedbacks, 400ppm is just another data point we're going to blast past on the way to something higher and possibly a lot higher).

Who gave the example of a plant that was interdependent on the event of having a wildfire and why isn't that more counterintuitive than the ant/acacia relationship? Plants that are interdependent with insects are not uncommon and any plant interdependent with a particular species of insect is going to need that insect to accompany it in new habitat. Habitat is generally changed in nearby areas and not all the way across the world without it's symbiote. So what if you can't grow bananas outside in Greenland or here for that matter! Does that put the world's banana production in jeopardy? Being alive is a very good indication of a plant being able to reproduce itself and I don't find growing a seed to be a difficult thing to accomplish.

Many people have it in their minds that a future warmer Earth will be drier and that ignores all the data showing the contrary. The Northern Hemisphere tree line basically follows the warmest month (July) 10 degree C isotherm line. Those trees couldn't have changed much in less than 10 thousand years, so when you find past evidence of trees above the present tree line, it isn't wild speculation that the area was warmer than it has been in the recent past. As the arctic warms, the northern latitudes will get a longer growing season, because producing food further north is presently limited by the cold climate.


wili

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #291 on: May 21, 2013, 01:39:13 PM »
"producing food further north is presently limited by the cold climate"

That, of course, is not the only limit in most places.
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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #292 on: May 21, 2013, 05:39:11 PM »
Who gave the example of a plant that was interdependent on the event of having a wildfire and why isn't that more counterintuitive than the ant/acacia relationship? Plants that are interdependent with insects are not uncommon and any plant interdependent with a particular species of insect is going to need that insect to accompany it in new habitat. Habitat is generally changed in nearby areas and not all the way across the world without it's symbiote. So what if you can't grow bananas outside in Greenland or here for that matter! Does that put the world's banana production in jeopardy? Being alive is a very good indication of a plant being able to reproduce itself and I don't find growing a seed to be a difficult thing to accomplish.
I'm a bit confused as to what you are arguing at this point. I got the impression you were arguing it is easy to adapt agriculture and toss seeds in the ground in different regions.

You said:
Quote
I keep thinking back about all those seeds in Pawpaw fruit and can't understand why mankind can't grow the plant, if they take away it's environment. Just what part of room, nutrients and water can't they figure out?

This sort of thing makes it a lot harder to adapt agriculture - not a lot easier!

Right now, we take it for granted that we have large areas that are very suitable for growing our staple crops. It took thousands of years to fine tune this! You seem to take it for granted that we will continue to have large climatic areas suitable for growing our staple crops. This seems a flawed assumption.

Even if the overall productivity activity of the planet did increase as a result of climate change (very questionable in my opinion) - there is no guarantee whatsoever that the species we depend for agriculture will be favoured in that process.

There are a lot of factors even for our main staple crops that must be met. People have listed them on several occasions within this thread. Some of those factors are totally beyond human control (and they do not all change uniformly with climate change). Only by adopting a very simplistic view of the processes of abrupt climate change (and of the equilibrium state) could one possibly be sanguine about agriculture being anything other than "extremely at risk".

Where I diverge from collective opinion is that I argue the risk escalates dramatically over a timescale of only years, as opposed to decades.

TerryM

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #293 on: May 21, 2013, 06:30:47 PM »
 I don't think comparisons of what we are facing with the HCM or the Eemian are valid. As I understand it the HCM was quite regional with the NH having warmer summers while the earth as a whole cooled slightly. The greening of the Sahara isn't something I'd expect to see repeated, at least during a period in which the Milankovitch cycle is in such a different phase.


I agree that the tree line will march northward - followed by the Mountain Pine Beetle - but the removal of topsoil by the Laurentian ice sheet was extensive in the North & the ensuing 10k yrs, with stunted growth at best, hasn't left much of a base for agriculture.


The thing I worry about most though is the unpredictability of weather patterns. I've no experience with agriculture but my understanding is that choosing the optimal seed for the growing season's expected weather plays a big part in maximizing yield. The weather over the last few years has been anything but predictable due to the gyrations of the jet stream & I'd expect this to get significantly worse with less Arctic ice.


Terry

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #294 on: May 21, 2013, 07:12:10 PM »
The thing I worry about most though is the unpredictability of weather patterns.

It's hard to grow crops when the rain doesn't cooperate (too little or too much). And then there's the problem with overuse of our fossil water.

Quote
Wells Dry, Fertile Plains Turn to Dust
Vast stretches of Texas farmland lying over the aquifer no longer support irrigation. In west-central Kansas, up to a fifth of the irrigated farmland along a 100-mile swath of the aquifer has already gone dry. In many other places, there no longer is enough water to supply farmers’ peak needs during Kansas’ scorching summers.
...
Kansas agriculture will survive the slow draining of the aquifer — even now, less than a fifth of the state’s farmland is irrigated in any given year — but the economic impact nevertheless will be outsized. In the last federal agriculture census of Kansas, in 2007, an average acre of irrigated land produced nearly twice as many bushels of corn, two-thirds more soybeans and three-fifths more wheat than did dry land.

Farmers will take a hit as well. Raising crops without irrigation is far cheaper, but yields are far lower. Drought is a constant threat: the last two dry-land harvests were all but wiped out by poor rains.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/20/us/high-plains-aquifer-dwindles-hurting-farmers.html?_r=0

Edited to add a bit more from the article. Dry farming (the majority of the farming conducted in the midwest) is entirely dependent on rainfall. How fast will the aquifers fall if all the dry farmers stick straws into them?

A new study on depletion by USGS. Abstract:
Quote
A natural consequence of groundwater withdrawals is the removal of water from subsurface storage, but the overall rates and magnitude of groundwater depletion in the United States are not well characterized. This study evaluates longterm cumulative depletion volumes in 40 separate aquifers or areas and one land use category in the United States, bringing together information from the literature and from new analyses. Depletion is directly calculated using calibrated groundwater models, analytical approaches, or volumetric budget analyses for multiple aquifer systems. Estimated groundwater depletion in the United States during 1900–2008 totals approximately 1,000 cubic kilometers (km3). Furthermore, the rate of groundwater depletion has increased markedly since about 1950, with maximum rates occurring during the most recent period (2000–2008) when the depletion rate averaged almost 25 km3 per year (compared to 9.2 km3 per year averaged over the 1900–2008 timeframe).
http://pubs.usgs.gov/sir/2013/5079/SIR2013-5079.pdf
« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 07:17:13 PM by ritter »

JimD

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #295 on: May 21, 2013, 09:21:13 PM »
There are a host of assumptions, conjectures and misunderstandings in several posts above that come to the conclusion that agriculture is going to benefit from the warming climate and that over the next few decades we will move into new arable land at higher latitudes that can offset losses further south.  These assumptions are just flat incorrect.  There is a lot of scientific data out there on these issues as well as text books from dozens of college courses which one can learn from.  One can also get involved in growing crops and this will quickly bring to one's understanding a host of those academic issues.  Ignoring data and making unsound assumptions is what they do at WUWT.   

There IS tremendous slack in the global agricultural system.  Just a fact that is easily proven.  The fact that people are starving and malnourished in various locations around the world has nothing to do with that fact either.  Those issues are strictly due to government policies, distribution issues, and food affordability.  This is not to say that there are not moral issues at stake in this human suffering that are addressable (at this time...but eventually not). The likely fact that those issues will not be addressed at any time is quite high.  But attributing the cause to limits of the agricultural system flies in the face of facts.

I have stated why I think the system will eventually collapse and approximately when.  Of course, I may be wrong.  It may come earlier or later.  If earlier I think the facts say it can only happen if the  climate destabilizes much earlier than the peer reviewed research indicates it will. Once again, this may happen, but I am going to go with the experts unless I have knowledge that is certain that they are wrong .   And if I become certain that they are wrong I am going to go to them and find out what I have most likely misunderstood as I recognize that the odds of me being right and them wrong are very small.

How the slack in the system is managed going forward will be the major determinant on the scale of future starvation and malnutrition levels for some time. In the unlikely event that producers choose to modify past policies and financial decisions one could achieve a lot in keeping starvation/malnutrition at more humane levels (for 20 years or more).  However, I do not think this will happen as such altruism is not part of our basic nature. But, once again, we will see.  Will the rich give up eating large amounts of meat so that we can give food to the poor to keep them from starving?  I would  be very surprised if that happened.  As inhumane as this situation is it is not severe enough to cause collapse.  The real crunch time will come when the specter of starvation shows up on the doorstep of the rich and powerful countries and no change in policies can avoid the issue.  At this point the wheels come off the train.   

In the end it matters not who is correct on the timing as that just will impact how many resources are left to the survivors.  If it is later like I  think then we are most likely going to raise the co2 levels far higher and do much greater harm to our world and us.  If collapse comes earlier the long-term effects on the climate would likely be less severe so I guess I would prefer collapse comes sooner rather than later.     
We do not err because truth is difficult to see. It is visible at a glance. We err because this is more comfortable. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

How is it conceivable that all our technological progress - our very civilization - is like the axe in the hand of the pathological criminal? Albert Einstein

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #296 on: May 21, 2013, 09:53:10 PM »
"producing food further north is presently limited by the cold climate"

That, of course, is not the only limit in most places.

Exactly....when Europeans arrived in the Amazon, they saw a rich forest canopy with abundant rainfall. Clearly this was some of the richest agricultural land in the world. Once they cleared the forest and started farming they discovered something quite different. The soils were very poor.

Look at what is happening to the soil in northern Canada and Russia as the permafrost melts. We should not expect to be planting much grain there. We should get a bumper crop of mosquitoes though.

ggelsrinc

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #297 on: May 22, 2013, 03:18:53 AM »
Who gave the example of a plant that was interdependent on the event of having a wildfire and why isn't that more counterintuitive than the ant/acacia relationship? Plants that are interdependent with insects are not uncommon and any plant interdependent with a particular species of insect is going to need that insect to accompany it in new habitat. Habitat is generally changed in nearby areas and not all the way across the world without it's symbiote. So what if you can't grow bananas outside in Greenland or here for that matter! Does that put the world's banana production in jeopardy? Being alive is a very good indication of a plant being able to reproduce itself and I don't find growing a seed to be a difficult thing to accomplish.
I'm a bit confused as to what you are arguing at this point. I got the impression you were arguing it is easy to adapt agriculture and toss seeds in the ground in different regions.

You said:
Quote
I keep thinking back about all those seeds in Pawpaw fruit and can't understand why mankind can't grow the plant, if they take away it's environment. Just what part of room, nutrients and water can't they figure out?

This sort of thing makes it a lot harder to adapt agriculture - not a lot easier!

Right now, we take it for granted that we have large areas that are very suitable for growing our staple crops. It took thousands of years to fine tune this! You seem to take it for granted that we will continue to have large climatic areas suitable for growing our staple crops. This seems a flawed assumption.

Even if the overall productivity activity of the planet did increase as a result of climate change (very questionable in my opinion) - there is no guarantee whatsoever that the species we depend for agriculture will be favoured in that process.

There are a lot of factors even for our main staple crops that must be met. People have listed them on several occasions within this thread. Some of those factors are totally beyond human control (and they do not all change uniformly with climate change). Only by adopting a very simplistic view of the processes of abrupt climate change (and of the equilibrium state) could one possibly be sanguine about agriculture being anything other than "extremely at risk".

Where I diverge from collective opinion is that I argue the risk escalates dramatically over a timescale of only years, as opposed to decades.

That endangered species of Pawpaw exists in a highly developed area of Florida. Pawpaws develop large amounts of fruit with large seeds. This particular Pawpaw has developed a strategy of going domant underground for maybe a hundred years until wildfires remove the vegetation covering the plant. They've been fooling around with the plant for about 30 years and Pawpaws aren't that hard to germinate and grow. Of the remaining less than a thousand plants in 17 locations, some are on private property and that is still enough plants to produce plenty of seeds. Some of the public lands use controlled fires regularly to prevent overgrowth. Your take is the plants are difficult to grow and my take is the plant smells bad and people don't want it around. My take also is even if the plant stinks, there should be somewhere in all that space to allow it to grow and periodically prevent it becoming overgrown with other vegetation, just by weeding out other plants. I can understand why they wouldn't want wildfires raging around a developed area, but that Pawpaw only uses it's fire strategy once it's become overgrown and can't get sunlight.

If you can get an free online course in Physical Geography offered by some college Geology Department or just find a college textbook, even an older one, do so! It will be one of the most interesting courses you will ever take. The course is designed to explain any feature of Earth, so it covers soil classification and what's involved to make a specific soil type. It's the vegetation grown for years in the area that makes the soil the type it is. Different kinds of vegetation produce different characteristics in the soils below. Our staples are basically grains and are mostly grown in areas favored by grasslands since the Pliocene cooled and dried the Earth. It isn't a mystery why an area is a wheat belt, because things similar to wheat have been growing in that area for millions of years, when not covered by a glacier. Forested land that isn't boreal is excellent farmland for growing crops and most of that area of major rice production area in Asia was forested.

Soil also contains a history of past vegetation. When you analyze the soil poleward of where many of the grains are grown, there is evidence of a southern migration of those grasslands in the Northern Hemisphere as the Earth cooled since the HTM. A similar migration away from the poles can be found in South America, though the land mass is much smaller than in the Northern Hemisphere. Patagonia shows evidence of previous glacier decline and we've found evidence of trees in current glacier decline.

Here is the vegetation in Africa today:



Here is the past vegetation from a History of Africa course:



Here is the agricultural potential based on the past in the same course:



Notice the areas they call prime agricultural lands were the forests and woods in the second image, while the pime pasture, suitable farmland are the grasslands (savannas). It looks like they just combined and recolored the same map. Notice also the only extreme desert area in Africa were that southwest Namib Desert area which tends to stay desert, because ocean and wind currents just rob it of rain. That past Africa is in better shape to produce agriculture than the present Africa by a long shot. For that kind of Africa to exist, there would have to be significant changes to present climate patterns.

Around the time of that map, mankind invented agriculture and started cities. In the entire history of agriculture, it's never been some easy sure thing and years of plenty can hurt a farmer just like the lean years, unless a government has price and economic controls to ensure a farmer will not own his crop until it rots and is worthless. More extreme weather conditions will hurt production more than present extreme weather conditions do, but we are not near our limit of world food production. The US drought wasn't as bad on the corn crop, because many farmers were planting drought resistant varieties of corn. The full picture is money was lost in one area and gained in other areas. Farmers in this area, that was once hardwoods, didn't suffer from the drought and their corn crops gave good yields at higher than normal prices.

Where you diverge from a collective opinion is choosing the disaster to happen immediately and forming a collective opinion solely based on agricultural and society collapse, dismissing all views and evidence to the contrary. That opinion ignores the economic reality that agriculture requires selling a product on the market to satisfy the interests of the people involved. The money interests will make enough product to suit market demand and will maintain their profit margins with price increases if necessary. The money interests lose profit, if they sell less than market demand and farmers are a small percentage (20%) of the total money interests in food in developed countries. Does your collective opinion involve anyone who has actually worked in Ag Chem or spent much time around farms? I posted the data showing about two and a half times more natural disasters occuring in 2010 than 1980 and showed they were weather related. It isn't hard to get the data on crop production for that period and we all know it didn't decline. Natural catastrophies don't ignore crops and just pick on people. The "collective opinion" is a mindset. It's opposition to AGW is good, but there isn't evidence that a warmer world has less agricultural production potential and there is plenty of contrary evidence. That doesn't mean gaining more worldwide agricultural production potential is worth the price of warming the Earth. There are better ways to produce more agriculture that don't have consequences like moving monuments and capitals away from sea level rise or victimizing the people drawing the wrong straw in a climate change lottery. People will have enough problems dealing with what is real and now.

When our Earth in near geological time consistently responded to warming by shifting the climate a certain way in various locations, it is logical to believe present warming will produce similar results. Minor differences between present radiative forcing and the HTM ignore the fact that interglacial warm periods aren't equal, so if warm periods produce similar results then changes in circulation are needed. I don't see a way to get to what a future warmer world would be without changes in the jet stream, for example, and I expect many major circulation changes would also be required, even with a primary cause of changes in North African monsoons being insolation. We already have data on the changes in the Eastern equatorial Atlantic upwelling.

Shared Humanity

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #298 on: May 22, 2013, 06:47:44 PM »
ggelsrinc.......really excellent maps. I am sure the warming planet will surprise us and it is not surprising that large land masses like Africa may benefit dramatically. Given the development of human civilization, this map of Africa explains why it was the location of many early civilizations. Anthropologists are increasingly using satellites to locate ancient civilizations and they have identified many possible cities buried deep beneath the sands of the Sahara.

It is a cause for optimism that Africa could become a source of agricultural plenty over the next several thousand years. Since the historical record for all human civilization spans about 5000 years, this slow transition in Africa provides little comfort for human civilization as it is currently evolved.

Perhaps terraforming earths land to accelerate this transition holds out some possibilities? We could treat it as a sort of "Marshall Plan" for agriculture.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2013, 07:16:57 PM by Shared Humanity »

ggelsrinc

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #299 on: May 22, 2013, 09:50:33 PM »
ggelsrinc.......really excellent maps. I am sure the warming planet will surprise us and it is not surprising that large land masses like Africa may benefit dramatically. Given the development of human civilization, this map of Africa explains why it was the location of many early civilizations. Anthropologists are increasingly using satellites to locate ancient civilizations and they have identified many possible cities buried deep beneath the sands of the Sahara.

It is a cause for optimism that Africa could become a source of agricultural plenty over the next several thousand years. Since the historical record of all human civilization spans about 5000 years, this slow transition in Africa provides little comfort for human civilization as it is currently evolved.

The Green Sahara is a product of changes of the 23,000 year North Africa monsoon cycle, but the experts claim there is some other trigger than insolation changes for both the onset and end, because it happens to quickly. I'd say some change in ocean circulation is the most likely trigger. The prevailing winds in the center of the Sahara switch direction.

There are very good reasons why food production didn't flourish throughout the entire continent of Africa (like switching from summer to winter crops as you go north to south and livestock infected by tsetse), which is a topic besides the point that world food production managed to increase significantly during the 30 years when weather related natural catastrophies were two and a half times more likely in 2010 than in 1980 and that comes from a trend and not anecdotal cherry picked data. This increase in exceptional weather events isn't something just happening, it's been happening and the insurance companies have been charging for climate change since 1973.

I think the collective mindset of societal collapse because of climate change follows this path. The data that climate change exists and is anthropogenic is overwhelming and should be convincing to reasonable people. I think the collective mindset sees mankind as the villain and looks for a way for the Earth to counterattack the villain as if the Earth is a sentient life form. I think it's motivated by frustration that things aren't being down to stop AGW. We've all been told about overpopulation since we were born, but at least the older people have the experience of living a lifetime of claimed food production disasters that never happened. The claims predate any concerns about global warming. The odds that someone will spend their entire lifetime without food related societal collapse, just like I have, are much more likely than these doomsday forecasts.