Political theatre/wrestling

[TerryM]

^^ Ouch !!


That's not a pretty picture.


but thanks so much for dragging up this wonderful old thread!
Terry

[DrTskoul]

^^ Ouch !!


That's not a pretty picture.


but thanks so much for dragging up this wonderful old thread!
Terry

?? Sexist much ??

[Tom_Mazanec]

Well, Trump's agencies are preparing for AGW, even if he ain't:
https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2019-07-30/agencies-prep-for-climate-change-despite-hostility-from-trump
Energy Secretary: Humans cause AGW:
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/31/energy-secretary-rick-perry-humans-play-a-role-in-climate-change.html

[blumenkraft]

but thanks so much for dragging up this wonderful old thread!
Terry

Thanks, Terry. Also in this thread, Sidd is missed.

[Neven]

Where is sidd? Did something happen while I was away?

[philopek]

Where is sidd? Did something happen while I was away?

This is his last post and all others before this one don't hint at any special event or purposeful absence.

[TerryM]

Hope he's doing OK
Terry

[Tom_Mazanec]

A new tone from some Republicans on climate change — mostly behind closed doors
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/08/22/climate-change-global-translations-1675710

Republicans are beginning to feel the heat on climate change.

Though a significant bloc of the party continues to deny the basic science of the issue, some senior Republicans are showing a willingness to consider incremental legislation to turbo-charge clean energy research funding, invest in greening buildings, support electric vehicle charging infrastructure and promote energy efficiency.

[Tom_Mazanec]

The Problem With Our Climate Debate Is That Only Democrats Are Showing Up
https://www.thenation.com/article/climate-change-democrats-townhall/

However, the very structure of the forum, taking place only among Democrats, highlighted the key political reality that makes addressing climate change so difficult. The Republican standard-bearer, Donald Trump, has repeatedly described climate change as a hoax. Nor is Trump alone in his denialism. Even those Republicans who accept the reality of climate change aren’t prepared to do anything substantive about it. Given that the American political system includes many mechanisms for a minority party to veto or weaken laws, GOP denialism will remain a major hurdle even if the Democrats win the presidency and take back the Senate in 2020.

[Tom_Mazanec]

For youth, climate isn’t partisan
https://grist.org/beacon/for-youth-climate-isnt-partisan/

When it comes to the issue of climate change, young Republicans and young Democrats might as well be in the same party. Recent surveys suggest that Gen Z and millennial Republicans care about the climate much more than their older counterparts — and, get this, maybe as much as their peers across the aisle.

I'm a conservative Republican. Climate change is real.
https://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2019/09/11/climate-change-conservative-republicans-000955

I’m a conservative Republican and I believe climate change is real. It’s time for my fellow Republicans in Congress to stop treating this environmental threat as something abstract and political and recognize that it’s already affecting their constituents in their daily lives.

If we don’t change our party’s position soon, our voters will punish us.

[Tom_Mazanec]

Bishop, Scalise, Cheney unveil GOP alternative federal energy bill
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/11/offshore-energy-policy-1489384

The GOP bill would open the eastern Gulf of Mexico to drilling, require deference to state rules governing fracking on public lands, create new categorical exclusions for oil and gas permitting, and require congressional approval to make areas of the nation’s off-limits for offshore drilling while effectively ending the president’s authority to declare national marine monuments.

It would also boost the states’ share of production revenues to 50 percent from 37.5 percent and remove a $500 million annual cap on the payments to states. And it would block an Interior secretary from preventing coal lease sales and require congressional approval for any moratorium on new oil, gas or coal lease sales on public lands or waters.

[Tom_Mazanec]

The political theatre plays a farce:
Inside conservative groups’ effort to ‘Make Dishwashers Great Again’
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/17/climate/trump-dishwasher-regulatory-rollback.html?rref=collection%2Fsectioncollection%2Fclimate

Of all the efforts to persuade the Trump administration to weaken environmental rules, the Make Dishwashers Great Again lobby might be the most peculiar.

[Tom_Mazanec]

Every Group Except Older Republicans Is Concerned About Climate Change
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/climate-change-poll_n_5d87ab74e4b0849d472adbb3

But the poll also finds a significant generational divide within the GOP: 69% of Republicans under age 45 describe themselves as at least somewhat concerned about climate change, compared to just 38% of those age 45 and older. There’s not a similar difference based on age among Democrats.

GOP LEADERSHIP HUDDLES WITH FOSSIL FUEL INDUSTRY DURING CLIMATE WEEK
https://theintercept.com/2019/09/22/gop-fossil-fuel-fundraisers-climate-week/

YOUTH DEMONSTRATORS stormed streets across the world demanding drastic action on the climate crisis on Friday, following a visit by Swedish activist Greta Thunberg on Capitol Hill last week to press lawmakers to view rising greenhouse gases as an existential problem that requires an immediate response.

Behind closed doors, across town in Washington, D.C., Republican lawmakers, including leadership, huddled with the fossil fuel industry, maintaining the very ties that bind U.S. policymakers and prevent them from addressing climate change.

[Neven]

Here we go again!

[wili]

So what. A news organization got a detail in a story wrong, and then corrected the story. It happens pretty much every day. If you or Dore are going to jump up and down every time that happens, you're gonna get sore leg muscles from repetitive motion sickness!

[SteveMDFP]

So what. A news organization got a detail in a story wrong, and then corrected the story. It happens pretty much every day. If you or Dore are going to jump up and down every time that happens, you're gonna get sore leg muscles from repetitive motion sickness!

Indeed.  Trump asked the President of Ukraine to "do us a favor, though" and launch an investigation into the Bidens.  The aid to Ukraine was very clearly implied as hostage to compliance.  The facts are clear.  Overstatements by one or another news outlet are irrelevant to the overall picture. 

[Neven]

Kyle Kulinski explains why Trump is better at political theatre than silly 'liberals':

[Rob Dekker]

Remember during all the Benghazi investigations when Obama blocked access to documents and refused to let Hillary testify ?

Of course you don't, because it never happened.

Obama handed over everything and Hillary sat in testimony 11 hours straight, because they had nothing to hide and they aren't dipshit man-babies like Trump and his cronies.

Trump has got to go, and the whole corrupt GOP swamp with him.

[Rob Dekker]

Kyle Kulinski explains why Trump is better at political theatre than silly 'liberals':

Kulinski is really starting to piss me off.

Let's do some fact checkin.

Just go to the first claim, at 0:43 into the video :
Kulinski claims that Biden met with a "Ukraine gas Exec", implying that Biden's son did something wrong.

But the fact is he didn't.

Not just did Hunter Biden do nothing wrong, and an investigation into his business dealings by the Ukrainian prosecutor general in 2017 confirmed that, but the photo shows a picture with Devon Archer, a US business man and fellow board member who was never a "Ukraine gas exec.".

Neven, can you PLEASE stop posting the spin, and the propaganda, and the lies vented by guys like Kulinski and Jimmy Dore, so that I don't have to expose them every time ?

Thank you !

[Neven]

But the fact is he didn't.

The fact - and we all know how you love facts - is that Hunter Biden received 50K per month for sitting on that Ukraine gas company board, without having any experience in that sector. If you're going to maintain there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, Trump will have a field day with you, which is Kulinski's point. He doesn't dispute any 'facts', he just says that if you're going to gloss over the fact that this (and other) stuff makes Biden look very bad, you lose.

Trump is better at this game than silly 'liberals' because silly 'liberals' continuously put themselves in unwinnable positions, because their tribal hypocrisy is so in plain sight.

[TerryM]

Joe Biden was paid $900K by Burisma, according to documents posted by a Ukrainian lawmaker.
https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/press-conference/617936-amp.html


When Hunter Biden and Kerry's step son Chris Heinz involved engorged themselves in the Ukrainian energy sector my initial thought was that it sounded like something the Republicans would do. I'm still partisan enough to believe that this isn't the kind of thing that Democrats normally engage in. Kerry's had the good sense to move into the background.


Biden's already hung by his own admission. Democrats need to distance themselves from Biden and embrace a candidate free of this kind of baggage. We need a win here & Bidens not a winner.
Terry

[sidd]

Re: " this isn't the kind of thing that Democrats normally engage in. "

Clinton Foundation.

sidd

[sidd]

"Hunter Biden received 50K per month for sitting on that Ukraine gas company board, without having any experience in that sector"

Well, he had form, which might have recommended him. The guy is a crackhead, as such easily controlled.  Just keep the cocaine flowing and he'll sign anything you want. Throw him a 50K bone a month, we're talking billions on the deal here.

What surprises me most often is not that these guys are crooked, but how cheaply they sell themselves.

Look at lobbying. ROI on DC lobbying is something like a million to one, take the bank bailouts. Banks invest a few millions n legislators,  get back trillions.  After they lost trillions in the first place. But the legislators ? hell they made nuttn compared to the banks. A competent set of crooks could have made a few hundred billion outta that deal. They settled for peanuts.

sidd

[Rob Dekker]

But the fact is he didn't.

The fact - and we all know how you love facts - is that Hunter Biden received 50K per month for sitting on that Ukraine gas company board, without having any experience in that sector....

Why is paying $50k / month unreasonable for making sure a corporation adheres to the highest international standards of business conduct ?

Seriously. Why is that a problem ?

For a corporation that is under investigation and situated in a country where corruption is a major point of concern, it seems very reasonable decision to me to attract international businessmen on the board to advise the company on how to fix any issues of business conduct and $50k/month is NOT a lot of money to pay for that.

What is unreasonable is your point of view seen against the OTHER facts that you seem to ignore :

I don't hear you complain about Trump's kids making millions while holding positions in the White House.
https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2019-10-10/trumps-adult-children-do-business-overseas-as-president-slams-biden
https://www.forbes.com/sites/danalexander/2019/10/02/donald-trump-has-sold-more-than-100-million-of-real-estate-since-taking-office/#783b083b1090
https://www.newsweek.com/trump-family-members-have-gotten-much-richer-president-moved-white-house-975993

I also don't hear you complain about Rick Perry trying to install a new board at Naftogaz, Ukraine's largest gas corporation, so that Trump's friends could profit greatly. The conflicts of interest are blatantly obvious :
https://www.apnews.com/d7440cffba4940f5b85cd3dfa3500fb2
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/trump-allies-aimed-to-cash-in-from-ukraines-state-owned-gas-company-2019-10-06

You are just tunnel-visioned complaining about Hunter Biden, who served on the board of Burisma, which has been investigated and cleared of wrongdoing already by the Ukrainian prosecutor general after an investigation that ended in 2017.

No offense, but your pro-Trump bias is showing very, very clearly.

[TerryM]

Re: " this isn't the kind of thing that Democrats normally engage in. "

Clinton Foundation.

sidd

Yea, but ...
I always liked Bull Bill. Bill is what I meant damnit.
And it was an energy racket - you know, like Bush or Cheney, or some oily Republican.
Terry

[Neven]

Why is paying $50k / month unreasonable for making sure a corporation adheres to the highest international standards of business conduct ?

Seriously. Why is that a problem ?

Do you really not see why the Hunter Biden thing is a problem? Do you really not understand that this is what makes you lose against Donald Trump?

For a corporation that is under investigation and situated in a country where corruption is a major point of concern, it seems very reasonable decision to me to attract international businessmen on the board to advise the company on how to fix any issues of business conduct and $50k/month is NOT a lot of money to pay for that.

He was attracted because he was the vice-president's son. Period. It may be legal, but it's definitely not ethical. It stinks to high heaven.

What is unreasonable is your point of view seen against the OTHER facts that you seem to ignore :

I don't hear you complain about Trump's kids making millions while holding positions in the White House.

The point is: How can you complain about Trump's kids, while at the same time maintaining that the Hunter Biden situation is just fine?

As soon as you go 'Trump is horrible, but Biden is good, and it's all a lie, it's all conspiracy theories, Obama and the Clintons are the good guys, they are not corrupt elites, but really have the interest of the majority of Americans', you lose. Because people see through it, they see through your selective indignation, your double standards, your hypocrisy.

This is the kind of thinking that has made it possible for a corrupt idiot like Donald Trump to become the US president. Don't engage in political theatre. Stop making up excuses for Biden because of tribalist Trump Derangement Syndrome. Use your brains.

You solve the problem by saying that they are all the same, they're all in the same club, they all need to go. Trump, the GOP, Corporate Democrats, Third Way Democrats, they are all the problem. Everything else is a losing strategy.

[blumenkraft]

It astonishes me how Americans are completely blind to corruption. It's right there in front of them, yelling at them on a daily basis - but they just don't see it.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

[Tom_Mazanec]

It astonishes me how Americans are completely blind to corruption. It's right there in front of them, yelling at them on a daily basis - but they just don't see it.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Well, I have seen it all my life, and I am an American. But it’s just like “So what else is new?”.

[SteveMDFP]

It astonishes me how Americans are completely blind to corruption. It's right there in front of them, yelling at them on a daily basis - but they just don't see it.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Well, I have seen it all my life, and I am an American. But it’s just like “So what else is new?”.

Indeed.  Some of the worst corruption in American politics is perfectly legal.  Anyone with deep pockets can spend unlimited funds on behalf of a candidate and do so hidden from public view.  Legal.  Sure, contributions to official campaign coffers are limited and public, but so what?

It's then perfectly legal for that big supporter to meet with the elected official and lay out what policies he wants to advance, or else.

In this context, consider that the offspring of an elected official often cashes in on his connection to power.  Not only is this also perfectly legal, it's utterly unimportant in comparison to the campaign finance elephant in the room (which is also legal).

[TerryM]

It astonishes me how Americans are completely blind to corruption. It's right there in front of them, yelling at them on a daily basis - but they just don't see it.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

I find it difficult to blame anyone who has lived their whole life under a constant barrage of propaganda for succumbing to it. The only reason I am able to see through (some) of it was that I was born under one set of lies, lived my adult life under a competing set, then retired and returned to live under the original cloud of propaganda.


Propaganda is very powerful stuff, and without some window to the outside it's very difficult to get, let alone maintain your bearings.


Every country spends big bucks indoctrinating their citizens. The USofA is just a little better at it than most.
Terry

[Neven]

Kyle Kulinski continues to explain why the strategy connected to Ukrainegate is so incredibly stupid and helps Trump:

[blumenkraft]

Imagine the Democrats weren't corrupt. Imagine the moral high ground, the arguments they would have...

But this is America, and there is no reason to assume you couldn't bring your opponent down for corruption while being corrupt yourself.

It's not about who's corrupt, no one cares really.

If you want to win the election you have to mobilize your base. Telling the democratic voters how bad Trump really is in a constant stream of crimes pulled into the public will mobilize the base. It will also potentially demobilize one or the other republican voter. Every republican non-vote counts!

[Neven]

Imagine the Democrats weren't corrupt. Imagine the moral high ground, the arguments they would have...

That's exactly it. That's what makes Rob Dekker's 'fact-checking' superiority so incredibly inferior. That's how a dumb idiot like Trump beats super-intelligent Democrats who are at the apex of meritocracy.

[Neven]

Another video on how bad the Biden stuff is, with Ryan Grim explaining from 6:45 onwards how there is absolutely no need to protect Biden and gloss over this issue ('because Trump'), as the general election hasn't even started yet.

Unlike Rob Dekker, who thinks there is only a binary choice between Trump and Biden and thus Biden must be shielded at all costs, a rational person knows that you can actually decide to choose neither.

[TerryM]

Another video on how bad the Biden stuff is, with Ryan Grim explaining from 6:45 onwards how there is absolutely no need to protect Biden and gloss over this issue ('because Trump'), as the general election hasn't even started yet.

Unlike Rob Dekker, who thinks there is only a binary choice between Trump and Biden and thus Biden must be shielded at all costs, a rational person knows that you can actually decide to choose neither.

Throwing Biden under the bus is probably the minimum first step required to winning the presidency. The days when we could point to the Republicans and say "They are the crooks." without facing laughter are long past.


I've been calling for campaigning against Trump by emphasising his obvious domestic policy unforced errors. Russiagate has backfired and Ukrainegate will trip up more Democrats than Republicans.


Trump should have been standing for re-election after 4 years of vocal Democratic opposition to his stand on climate change, immigration issues, and his position on health care. Trump's side & Republicans lose on all these issues.


Instead we've raised so much heat over Russia and the Ukraine that there has been little ink left to examine Trump's outrageous domestic policies, and even less spent explaining to the voting public why another 4 years will be so harmful.


There is still almost a year before the election.
Attack him where it will hurt - even if this requires cutting some of our corporate sponsors.
Terry

[blumenkraft]

Attack him where it will hurt - even if this requires cutting some of our corporate sponsors.

Why 'some', Terry?

You need to ditch them all in order to fight corruption.

[blumenkraft]

In 2013, during the super summer, there was a group of kids and 2 cops educating them on traffic laws. I bought a box of ice cream for the kids. Of course, i offered the cops one too because i don't want to be rude, right? They actually reacted pretty angrily to my surprise. They refused because this is bribery. I tolled my respect.

[Neven]

Kyle Kulinski continues to explain how dumb it is to impeach Trump based on Bidengate: