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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #150 on: April 28, 2017, 02:45:25 PM »
No easy answers: why left-wing economics is not the answer to right-wing populism

Interesting perspective..

Thanks for the interesting read, a nice overview of the problems facing the left.

But according to its logic, Obama could never have become president because he's black. If you want to take the right-wing winds out of the sails of immigration as a populist tool, you need to take a clear stance and leave out the political correctness which makes it impossible to debate.

What I'm also missing, is that Labour's demise was in large part caused by the horrible hypocrisy of corporate warmongers like Tony Blair. They're still reaping the bitter fruits, similar to what is now happening to the Democratic Party, which has swung far too much to the right.

The final paragraph is good, though:

Quote
In this context, tacking to the left on economics won't give Democrats a silver bullet to use against the racial resentment powering Trump's success. It could actually wind up giving Trump an even bigger gun. If Democrats really want to stop right-wing populists like Trump, they need a strategy that blunts the true drivers of their appeal — and that means focusing on more than economics.

First and foremost, you have to stop sweet-talking voters and then stick a knife in their backs (like the Clintons and Obama have done). Voters have shown that they are sick of that and will even vote for a narcissistic kleptocrat to make that point.

So, first you have to gain their trust by showing you're for real and that you passionately stand for something (like Sanders is doing). And then you have to appeal to what most people in America want: Affordable health care, getting the soldiers back, free tuition, clean energy, getting money out of politics, and yes, some limits on immigration as well.

You know, all those things that you can really exploit because Trump is going to make a huge mess of it. But it has to come out of the right mouths. I can imagine people want to throw up when they hear Pelosi's platitudes. Or Perez' empty rhetoric.
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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #151 on: April 28, 2017, 04:20:08 PM »
I just watched this TheRealNews video, and one of the people in the discussion, a certain Paul Jay, has some really interesting things to say about the split in the Democratic Party, how Corporate Democrats and Sanders Progressives are heading for a civil war, but are now working together to keep the Democratic Party as an institution whole. He starts talking at 4.22 minutes:

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sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #152 on: April 28, 2017, 09:37:32 PM »
Re: Maybe you can be my conduit?

I don't play on the left coast too much, mostly east of the Mississippi. I think i would have to set up a PAC before accepting monies from anyone, that is a step i am considering, but i have some other ideas along those lines. As far as Jaffe goes, I suggest you contact him directly via his web site, find out if he has a PAC and work with them.

sidd

TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #153 on: April 28, 2017, 10:28:53 PM »
No easy answers: why left-wing economics is not the answer to right-wing populism

Interesting perspective..


The link provided is a must read for any that "Want Their Country Back". A sobering, well documented argument that the further we move to the left economically, the further the voters may swing out of our grasp.
If the economic security that more socialist programs provides simply allows the proles the freedom to vote based on xenophobic, religious, security, or militaristic concerns, what are we left to run on?
I'm not comfortable supporting a candidate if he is simply another right wing shill, regardless of which party he runs in, yet according to Zack the biggest losers in the last election were the Democrats who most closely aligned themselves with right wing economics. Those who spouted leftist rhetoric got less votes than Hillary.
A very troubling message.
Terry

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #154 on: April 28, 2017, 10:50:09 PM »
I do not find Beauchamp reliable in matters regarding the midwest. From my travels, I find the reason most people voted against Feingold and Strickland was because they were seen as part of the Democratic power structure. Racism is held up as the cause for Democratic defeat, but he carefully avoids the question of why the racists voted for a black man twice. Tim Ryan of Ohio is a counterexample, who is as left wing as it gets in the Democratic Party today, and yet wins in places like Youngstown and Akron.

He should get out more. I wonder if he has ever been to the midwest.

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ivica

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #155 on: April 28, 2017, 10:59:42 PM »
How about here ? Uf, it may be OT, not sure if even title /translated by Neven/ could help. I apologize.

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #156 on: April 28, 2017, 11:10:07 PM »
How about here ? Uf, it may be OT, not sure if even title /translated by Neven/ could help. I apologize.

People, animals, curses? Is that what the title means?

Seems a bit off-topic, yes. Although Jimmy Dore does curse a lot.  ;)
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TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #157 on: April 28, 2017, 11:23:18 PM »
Sidd
You can't imagine how strongly my hope is that you're right.
I'm sure you noticed his chart plotting black population percent against welfare generosity. Your Mississippi example certainly stands out. An up to date chart using visible minorities as opposed to only blacks might further clarify the issue.


I'll be speaking of the dearth of visible minority participation in a high IQ society this weekend. My argument will be that many feel uncomfortable there, few are encouraged to test their intelligence, and that many would qualify if we did a better job of recruitment.
I shudder to think of what counter-arguments I may face.


Terry

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #158 on: April 29, 2017, 06:23:53 AM »
The weekend of the march of science, i had my own little march with a bunch of others to plant trees. I wound up paired with a young man from a little place south of Steubenville, OH. No chance of college, no health insurance, construction work in summer, snow removal, slow starvation, living in the car in winter. Yet he came out and volunteered to plant trees, so that was my first clue that he was wise beyond his years. (Don't get me wrong, he knew little about planting trees ...)

In addition to volunteering to plant trees, he goes out and registers people to vote, those living in the back of beyond, talking people without indoor toilets. He tries to make sure that they know when the primaries and elections are, and gives as many a ride to them as he can, don't care who they vote for. He  said the only way we will change the system, whether on the Republican or the Democrat side, is to get those forgotten to show up to the polls and vote. As evidence, he cites the number that don't vote.

That is a powerful argument, I have been chewing on it since, and I am looking at organisations to support that do the same.

In any sane society, that young man would go far. In the one he lives in, he'll be lucky if he survives. Did I mention he is black, been in jail twice, beaten by police more times than he cared to count ?

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budmantis

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #159 on: April 29, 2017, 06:33:47 AM »
Sidd:

You're story about this young man is quite impressive. Homeless at least part of the year and still volunteers! Thanks.

BudM

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #160 on: April 29, 2017, 08:18:02 AM »
Part of why he volunteered might have been the free food after, but that's ok by me. I spent about 8-9 hrs with him, digging holes, moving boulders, fluffing rootballs, manual labor. He worked me into the ground. And we talked.

I don't know if you guys recall this story in 2008 outtta Washington, PA, first stoppable town in PA eastbound on I-70 from Ohio. (That town is in the middle of an area with huge death rate from drug epidemic and suicide right now, but that's another story that the coastal media never covers)

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/on-road-western-pennsylvania/

He grew up around there but across the Ohio. Not too many blacks round there, but some. He was too young to vote in 2008, but the white racists around there were telling him on the street, "Hey, we voting for your guy." He told me that nowadays the whites he tries to drive around and register are telling him, "We voted for the nigger twice, and he turned out to be a nigger."

The guy had edges on him. I tried to give him some money, he wouldn't take it, until i told him it was for educating me. I can see how he mouthed off at the cops and they beat him up. If I were in his shoes, I'd probably snap and wind up in jail too.

Left him my fone number, told him i'd pay for him getting a CDL (commercial drivers license), but also told him with jail time he can't get a hazmat cert, and that driving jobs are going away. But he don't want to drive, I don't blame him.

sidd
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 08:29:56 AM by sidd »

Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #161 on: April 29, 2017, 01:59:25 PM »
No easy answers: why left-wing economics is not the answer to right-wing populism

Interesting perspective..

Thanks for the interesting read, a nice overview of the problems facing the left.

But according to its logic, Obama could never have become president because he's black. If you want to take the right-wing winds out of the sails of immigration as a populist tool, you need to take a clear stance and leave out the political correctness which makes it impossible to debate.
Methinks Obama's blackness was indeed a factor: Some time back there was another interesting analysis written by someone who spent a lot of time with white folks at the "bottom". What drove them into the fangs of the Trump wolf was welfare envy, the perception that other sheep got more of the pie.

We also have that here in Germany: The evil wörd "Wirtschaftsflüchtling", economic refugee.

Quote
The final paragraph is good, though:

Quote
In this context, tacking to the left on economics won't give Democrats a silver bullet to use against the racial resentment powering Trump's success. It could actually wind up giving Trump an even bigger gun. If Democrats really want to stop right-wing populists like Trump, they need a strategy that blunts the true drivers of their appeal — and that means focusing on more than economics.

First and foremost, you have to stop sweet-talking voters and then stick a knife in their backs (like the Clintons and Obama have done). Voters have shown that they are sick of that and will even vote for a narcissistic kleptocrat to make that point.
... who doesn't use a knife (which was anyhow often Republican obstruction) but a machete. (Wrrrr it drives me nuts...)

Quote
So, first you have to gain their trust by showing you're for real and that you passionately stand for something (like Sanders is doing). And then you have to appeal to what most people in America want: Affordable health care, getting the soldiers back, free tuition, clean energy, getting money out of politics, and yes, some limits on immigration as well.

You know, all those things that you can really exploit because Trump is going to make a huge mess of it.
Looks like Trump/GOP voters don't care a bit about all that. So methinks getting rid of "corporate Democrats" won't help anything, except to make those feel better who anyhow don't vote GOP. The polls seem to show that Trump voters don't show one bit of buyer's remorse. And methinks they won't ever (because that would imply admitting having been stupid).

Welfare envy has been exploited by the GOP since Reagan's fake "welfare queen".
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/09/welfare-queen-myth/501470/

That could and should be turned around on them by pointing out the corporate welfare queens. Trump himself being the glaring paradigm.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 02:07:26 PM by Martin Gisser »

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #162 on: April 30, 2017, 05:10:31 AM »
Neven wrote: "And then you have to appeal to what most people in America want:Affordable health care, getting the soldiers back, free tuition, clean energy, getting money out of politics, and yes, some limits on immigration as well."

Mr. Gisser replied: "Looks like Trump/GOP voters don't care a bit about all that. "

Au contraire:

1) Affordable health care: I know many who got hit by the Obamacare rate increases in the Midwest just before the election, and are planning to drop out.  They care. Thats part of the reason they voted for Trump. They just ain't got the money.

2) Get the troops back: dear god, there are so, so many,many little towns throughout the midwest that have seen  their kids go off to war and come back maimed or not at all. And you see them at the VA hospitals if you ever go there. There is nothing more that they would like to do than get them back. It is a conscription, a conscription that dare not speak its own name, a conscription of the poor. Returning the troops home will sell to both Democrats and Republicans, actually more to the latter because they go in the army more.

3) Free tuition: This I know will sell to both Democrats and Republicans. The number one reason that kids from those little towns don't go to college or drop outta school is money.

4) clean energy : they're fine with clean energy, they just want to be employed building and installing panels and windmills and hydro and batteries and transmission. I been through blackest of coal country and they dont want to work in coal no more. But they got nuttn else. Give them an alternative. The farmers are cool with wind, but they want some say in where the transmission line goes, coz the know where the tractor and the combine gotta make the turn to follow contour. Many farmers I know want to get out of the Monsanto/DuPont/ADM/Conagra... vice and put up solar panels, but they cant get the financing or the transmission. As soon as they can afford batteries, they will drop the grid like some Amish, and that is coming fast, and at that point the grid operators are out of business and they know it.

5) getting money out of politics: o yeah. Thats a winner on both sides.

6) limits on immigration : you know that isn't as big a deal as some think. I know places in PA that had to shut down miles of apple orchards because they couldn't get the immigrant labor they used to. It was sad seeing trees tipped over and hauled out, now theres soy/corn there and the locals regret it, but the farmers couldn't do otherwise unless with hired illegals and still survive. They'd all rather have controlled immigration than not at all. These are not cruel people, none of them personally agrees with kicking out anyone who is paying taxes and keeps out of trouble. They know that their own wages get depressed when the immigrant labor pool is too scared to blow the whistle on wage violations and their life expectancy shortens when immigrants are too scared to call OSHA.


sidd

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #163 on: April 30, 2017, 05:08:44 PM »
Good Bill Maher interview with Elizabeth Warren. I like Warren, as she explains what the problem is, but she really refuses to come clean and address the problem of how the Democratic Party has turned its back on the American people.

! No longer available

At the end Maher says the American people needs a leader to vote for, but fails - yet again - to mention Bernie Sanders. As a matter of fact, he might have discussed him with Warren a bit.

If the Democratic Party comes clean, breaks the dominance of Corporate Democrats and takes the path that Sanders is showing them, I think they can crush the Republican Party to the point where a similar thing might happen there.
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Buddy

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #164 on: April 30, 2017, 09:32:24 PM »
While you Democrat's are busy trying to "root out the Kleptocrat's"........whatever you do, don't look over HERE:

https://thinkprogress.org/white-house-easier-sue-journalists-e7511e0e4881

First the Republicans Gerrymandered your districts.....now they're trying to shut you up.  Amazing.....But get the kleptocrat's FIRST....then worry about the Republicans.  Good strategy... ;)

As an Independent.....I have always been fascinated with both the Republicans AND the Democrats.  Living in Denver, Colorado.....my friends used to always tell me I was a "closet Republican".  Then when I moved to Atlanta.....all the sudden I am a "closet Democrat."  Fascinating.

The Dem's have made SEVERAL mistakes over the years.  Certainly they made their fair share in the last election.....but prioritizing your time by taking care of the "kleptocrats" (whoever they are) now while the Republicans are trying to put you out of business is an interesting tactic.
 



   
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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #165 on: April 30, 2017, 09:44:03 PM »
The Dem's have made SEVERAL mistakes over the years.  Certainly they made their fair share in the last election.....but prioritizing your time by taking care of the "kleptocrats" (whoever they are) now while the Republicans are trying to put you out of business is an interesting tactic.

If you're not bothering to read my comments or watch the videos I link to, I'm not sure if a discussion will lead anywhere. You do realize that the Republican Party is also serving the interests of kleptocrats/oligarchs, right?

My overarching point is that all the polarizing, partisan talk is a distraction from the real systemic problem, in which people are offered the choice between group of oligarchs 1 and group of oligarchs 2 (which are overlapping).

You know, the 'money in politics' thing? Citizens United, etc.

Because of Trump the Republican Party is as much in disarray as the Democratic Party, so the former won't be putting the latter out of business. This depends on what the latter does. The last election showed that voting Americans are obviously fed up with the neoliberal agenda and feel betrayed by Obama and the Clintons. So, that strategy of empty, vague rhetoric and sucking up to donors is not going to work.
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sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #166 on: April 30, 2017, 11:38:17 PM »
I find that many of those who are vociferously insisting that they can push both the Russiagate investigation and resist Trump everywhere else insist that those of us who wish to purge the Democratic party of corporate lackeys can therefore pay no attention to the excesses of the Trump administration.

There are parallels here with climate denialism, in that the progression seems to be

1) It's not happening (No corporate democrats exist)
2) It's not bad (But they are only slightly corrupt)
3) It's too hard. (Democrats have to suck corporate dick to win)
4) It's too late. (Now that Trump has been elected, we first must get him out before anything else.)

sidd

budmantis

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #167 on: May 01, 2017, 07:31:55 AM »
In the linked article, Democrats say they now know exactly why Clinton lost.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/democrats-say-they-now-know-exactly-why-clinton-lost/ar-BBAyW55?ocid=spartandhp

I still doubt that the Democratic leadership is really ready to make wholesale change, but I do think some are willing to acknowledge that Clinton was the wrong candidate for 2016 and Sanders was the better candidate. In the final paragraph, Matt Canter says, "We don't need to be Republican lite". I hope they get their act together before the mid-term elections in 2018.

BudM

AbruptSLR

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #168 on: May 02, 2017, 12:25:58 AM »
The linked article is entitled: "The Daily 202: Eight ways Trump got rolled in his first budget negotiation".  Donald may end-up making the establishment Democrats look like geniuses (at least in comparison).

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/daily-202/2017/05/01/daily-202-eight-ways-trump-got-rolled-in-his-first-budget-negotiation/590687f2e9b69b3a72331f09/?utm_term=.88472700748e

Extract: "Perhaps the best negotiators are not the people who tell everyone that they are the best negotiators.

But Democrats are surprised by just how many concessions they extracted in the trillion-dollar deal, considering that Republicans have unified control of government."
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AbruptSLR

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #169 on: May 02, 2017, 04:09:36 PM »
The linked article is entitled: "EPA, Clean Energy Spared Trump's Ax in $1.1 Trillion Budget Deal".  The establishment Democrats seem to be the most effective group w.r.t. putting on the brakes to Trump's attach on environmental programs.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-05-01/epa-clean-energy-spared-trump-s-ax-in-1-1-trillion-budget-deal

Extract: "Environmental programs marked for death or deep cuts by President Donald Trump got a reprieve in the government funding deal revealed early Monday by congressional leaders -- at least for now.

The Environmental Protection Agency, targeted for $247 million in cuts for this year’s funding, instead escaped with a budget trimmed by $81 million -- or 1 percent -- and no staff reductions. Research divisions within the Department of Energy received increases despite calls by Trump to slash or eliminate them."
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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #170 on: May 02, 2017, 04:23:00 PM »
The linked article is entitled: "EPA, Clean Energy Spared Trump's Ax in $1.1 Trillion Budget Deal".  The establishment Democrats seem to be the most effective group w.r.t. putting on the brakes to Trump's attach on environmental programs.

1) What are you trying to say?
2) Which other group had the possibility to put the brakes on? I'm asking because of 'most effective'. I'm also the most effective person in my house right now, as my wife and daughter aren't here. Oh wait, the dog is still there (darn it!).
3) Who are these establishment Democrats exactly?
4) What's in it for Trump, given his Overton-window deal making tactics?
5) Can we go back to sleep now?
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AbruptSLR

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #171 on: May 02, 2017, 04:44:24 PM »
The linked article is entitled: "EPA, Clean Energy Spared Trump's Ax in $1.1 Trillion Budget Deal".  The establishment Democrats seem to be the most effective group w.r.t. putting on the brakes to Trump's attach on environmental programs.

1) What are you trying to say?
2) Which other group had the possibility to put the brakes on? I'm asking because of 'most effective'. I'm also the most effective person in my house right now, as my wife and daughter aren't here. Oh wait, the dog is still there (darn it!).
3) Who are these establishment Democrats exactly?
4) What's in it for Trump, given his Overton-window deal making tactics?
5) Can we go back to sleep now?

1) We should express some appreciation to the establishment Democrats for putting up effective resistance.
2) The scientific consensus could convince the GOP (who control the Congress, WH & Supreme Court) to grow-up; or populists could make the WH quake in fear of backlash in the 2020 election.
3) Pelosi  & Schumer
4) Trump avoided the humiliation of a government shutdown (as what I am citing is a done-deal).
5) Goodnight!
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AbruptSLR

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #172 on: May 02, 2017, 05:00:50 PM »
The linked article is entitled: "Trump Says He’ll Sign Congress Spending Deal That Jettisons His Goals".  He is doing so to avoid humiliation of a government shutdown.

https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-05-01/congress-strikes-tentative-deal-on-1-1-trillion-spending-bill
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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #173 on: May 02, 2017, 06:22:00 PM »
I've never visited this section of the site before and haven't read through the pages of comments on this thread.  (And I don't have time in my life for another set of conversations.)

Let me simply address the subject of the thread - "The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out".

Let me remind people that it takes 50% + 1 to win an election.  It actually takes more if you're running as a Democrat as we saw with Gore/Bush and Clinton/Trump.

It takes 50% + 1 to pass legislation in the US House.  It takes 60% to pass legislation in the Senate.

It would be stupid to make the tent smaller.  A "purity progressive" tent wouldn't stand a chance of winning anything at any level.  Cast out a legislator from West Virginia because they are "soft on coal" or one from Louisiana because they have to go easy on oil  and you give the bad guys the keys to power. 

The way progressives/the most liberal win is by 1) making sure the tent contains enough voters/legislators and 2) educating those inside the tent about the better ideas and solutions progressives might have.

We've achieved rights for gays by changing public attitudes.  We wouldn't have been able to do that with the "15%" of us who understood the issue a decade ago.

Push the zeitgeist.  Figure out how to increase public awareness and change public attitude.  And then a majority of the public will vote with you. 

At the same time put all your support behind the "lesser of the evils" when push comes to shove. 

Hillary may have been far from what the far left wanted but wouldn't you rather have her in the White House right now?

Imagine how different America would be had Gore been elected president.  Think how much further along we'd be in our climate change fight.  Imagine no Iraq war and, possibly, no 9/11.


sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #174 on: May 02, 2017, 06:38:42 PM »
The corporate democrats are the reason Trump got elected. Support them some more, and you will have worse than Trump.

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #175 on: May 02, 2017, 06:59:11 PM »
The linked article is entitled: "EPA, Clean Energy Spared Trump's Ax in $1.1 Trillion Budget Deal".  The establishment Democrats seem to be the most effective group w.r.t. putting on the brakes to Trump's attach on environmental programs.

1) What are you trying to say?
2) Which other group had the possibility to put the brakes on? I'm asking because of 'most effective'. I'm also the most effective person in my house right now, as my wife and daughter aren't here. Oh wait, the dog is still there (darn it!).
3) Who are these establishment Democrats exactly?
4) What's in it for Trump, given his Overton-window deal making tactics?
5) Can we go back to sleep now?

1) We should express some appreciation to the establishment Democrats for putting up effective resistance.
2) The scientific consensus could convince the GOP (who control the Congress, WH & Supreme Court) to grow-up; or populists could make the WH quake in fear of backlash in the 2020 election.
3) Pelosi  & Schumer
4) Trump avoided the humiliation of a government shutdown (as what I am citing is a done-deal).
5) Goodnight!

1) Don't they get enough appreciation already from the donor class? And I mean the Corporate Democrats, not the real progressive ones who have the interests of the American people in mind. Which brings my to a subquestion:
a) What do you mean with appreciation? That Americans must vote for them next time, regardless of what they stand for, because otherwise the red team wins again? If it isn't this, your remark is totally meaningless. Do people have to thank politicians every time they do their job? Corporate Democrats may push for things that benefit the people occasionally. But if it's against the interests of the people who financed their campaigns, when push comes to shove, we all know what they do, right?
2) So, you compare two groups with very little actual power to a group that actually has power, and call the latter 'most effective' because of that? Wow, what a compliment. It's like calling a truck driver 'world champion' because he has just beaten two 10-year olds at armwrestling.
3) Pelosi and Schumer? Seriously? Even if it weren't their fault directly, these people are responsible for Democrats losing at all federal levels, everywhere. In any normal situation where introspection and evaluation are things that are valued, they'd be out the door. I suggest you thank them when they have been replaced by people who have been elected for their ideals, not because they're so good at raising money.
4) We'll have to wait and see what's in it for Trump. If Americans all acquiesce and bow to the benign oligarchs, they might seize the opportunity to strike a deal with the oligarchs behind Trump.
5) I think I'm going to have nightmares in which I am an American and have no other option but to sacrifice my freedom to Corporate Democrats. Go quietly into the night.
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AbruptSLR

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #176 on: May 02, 2017, 07:22:40 PM »
a) What do you mean with appreciation?

I mean that my post is meant as an expression of my appreciation to the Democratic Congressional leadership for putting-up effective resistance to Trump's agenda.
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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #177 on: May 02, 2017, 09:06:15 PM »
a) What do you mean with appreciation?

I mean that my post is meant as an expression of my appreciation to the Democratic Congressional leadership for putting-up effective resistance to Trump's agenda.

Okay, I misunderstood, I'm sorry. I thought you were telling other people they should be thankful to Corporate Democrats and support them.

I'm glad you're grateful. But IMO, you're a bit too easy to please.  ;) ;D
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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #178 on: May 02, 2017, 09:25:45 PM »
Quote
The way progressives/the most liberal win is by 1) making sure the tent contains enough voters/legislators and 2) educating those inside the tent about the better ideas and solutions progressives might have.

I couldn't agree more, Bob. That's exactly my point. The Democratic Party has been losing voters because the people feel betrayed. And they feel betrayed because they see that the people who run the Democratic Party (those who raise the most money) will prioritize the interest of wealthy donors over theirs. And so all they have, is empty rhetoric. That's why Trump won. He didn't mean most of what he said, but at least he said it.

So, if you want to get more voters, you have to make sure these people at least don't lead the party anymore. I don't think you need to educate Corporate Democrats as much as you need to make clear that if they keep doing what they're doing, they're going to be in trouble and not even their buddies in the Republican Party can help them. The gloves need to come off a bit.

Quote
Hillary may have been far from what the far left wanted but wouldn't you rather have her in the White House right now?

I'm not American, so what I want, doesn't count as much. But no, I wouldn't want to have her in the White House, because she's pro-war, pro-fracking, pro-TPP, against single payer, and she's too close to the donor class (and Saudi Arabia, Israel and Russia).

I also don't project myself onto the leader of the free world, or identify with him/her, so I don't care if he/she is a gentleman. I don't care about the personality stuff. I only care about whether the POTUS represents the people or the super-wealthy.

I hate it when idiots like Reagan and the Bushes so blatantly screw over the people, but I hate it even more when pretty faces and smooth talkers like Bill Clinton and Obama do the exact same thing. I believe that as long as Americans (and as a consequence, the rest of the world) let themselves be herded by oligarchs, even if they are benign, we will never be able to solve all the problems the world faces.

I don't believe in the lesser of two evils. It's an unfair and defeatist proposition, and there is no such thing as a lesser evil. Evil is still evil, and wishywashy doesn't cut it when the stakes are too high.

If the ideas are good and informed, and delivered with honesty and passion, you can win. Because reality is on your side, and people see there's something wrong, even though they are being misled and can't quite put their finger on it.

There's a battle going on in the Democratic Party, and we can all influence that (non-Americans included). Do you want Pelosi/Schumer, or do you want Sanders/Warren?
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sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #179 on: May 02, 2017, 09:46:40 PM »
For those on the left coast, San Luis Obosopo, here is a set of people who seem to be working on kicking the corporates out of the Democratic party:

https://sloprogressives.org/about/

sidd

AbruptSLR

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #180 on: May 02, 2017, 11:46:58 PM »
I'm glad you're grateful. But IMO, you're a bit too easy to please.  ;) ;D

The key to being happy is not to set one's expectations beyond reality  :)
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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #181 on: May 02, 2017, 11:58:41 PM »
I'm glad you're grateful. But IMO, you're a bit too easy to please.  ;) ;D

The key to being happy is not to set one's expectations beyond reality  :)

Is happiness one's sole responsibility, or does it also encompass the happiness of others?

As for expectations beyond reality, I believe you like quotes:
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AbruptSLR

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #182 on: May 03, 2017, 01:24:34 AM »

Is happiness one's sole responsibility, or does it also encompass the happiness of others?

As for expectations beyond reality, I believe you like quotes:

Actually, I believe that true happiness comes with developing compassion for others; however, that requires effort, and as the linked article entitled: "Can democracy survive the fourth industrial revolution? Should it?", explains, at the moment the majority of people are not making the effort to develop the skills required to organize & cooperate:

https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/jan/11/can-democracy-survive-the-fourth-industrial-revolution-should-it

Extract: "As automation and digitisation undermine employment and increase inequality, established political systems will need to adapt – fast.

But democracy isn’t simply a matter of choice. It’s also a matter of power – and, at the moment, voters have very little of that."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #183 on: May 03, 2017, 01:26:23 AM »
The corporate democrats are the reason Trump got elected. Support them some more, and you will have worse than Trump.
Hah haaaaahahahahahaha... Once upon a time methought it couldn't get worse than GWB.

What got Trump elected was decades of Republican stupidification (remember Alzheimo Reagan, now considered a progressive intellectual compared to today's GOP?), neocon "economic" quasireligion, decades of shit thrown at Hillary Rodham (who had to change into a H Clinton to survive politically) plus, foul play and obstruction by Republican dominated congress. Much if not most that is blamed on B Clinton and Obama is due to the latter. Did you know the U.S. president is not (yet) a dictator? That politics is sometimes the art of compromise?

According to the latest Gallup poll, Trumps gets the highest approval ratings by those who have to suffer most under him and his billionaire friends and the GOP ape house. America is brain dead now, and the corpse prepared to be devoured by corporate Republicans, madhouse billionaires, and the global fossil mafia... All the while the good Democrats keep bickering about Obama cashing not half as much as Reagan did for some speech...

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #184 on: May 03, 2017, 06:15:09 AM »
Those SLO progressive guys actually got a working group on, I kid you not, on "Take Over DNC/Eliminate Superdelegates" , lead is someone called Chris Whipple. Might not be a bad guy to contact.

They might have ideas on primary challenger to Dianne Feinstein.

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #185 on: May 03, 2017, 07:00:15 AM »
Re: "Politics is the art of compromise"

Quite. I am a very compromising kinda person. I pay taxes to a warmongering government, that's a big compromise right there.

Here's some of the compromises I'm currently prepared to make:

I will support any republican or democrat challenger to democrat Joe Manchin in WV who has a credible plan for those hopeless little communities. Now I am no fan of DiFi or Pelosi or Schumer, considering their history, but: I will support Nancy Pelosi and Dianne Feinstein and Chuck Schumer if they spearhead bank and dark money breakup and disavow wars fought for defense industries and act in favor of repatriating all the troops and stopping all the bombing in Afghanistan and the Middle East.

Trump just put breaking up the banks on the table. Lets see if any Democrats run with it. I suspect none will.

The real fight i think is with the banks. The warmongering could not exist without the wealth pump. Unfortunately, Schumer does not come for reelection forawhile. And, of course, other countries are waking up and choking off the wealth pump.

sidd

Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #186 on: May 03, 2017, 02:00:18 PM »
Trump just put breaking up the banks on the table. Lets see if any Democrats run with it. I suspect none will.
With all those Goldman Sachs alumni at Trump's table? Dream on.

Trump and friends will give the banks the means to break themselves, by rolling back the meager regulations that the Obama administration was able to put in place. Here we will see the difference between "corporate Republicans" and "corporate Democrats". Trump will pave the road to the next financial crisis.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/trumps-deregulation-of-banks-will-unleash-the-financial-fire-next-time-2017-03-01
Quote
Gary Cohn, a former Goldman Sachs president and chief operating officer who now heads President Donald Trump’s National Economic Council, says that we should reduce capital requirements (meaning allow more debt and less equity funding at banks) in order to boost the economy. This is exactly what happened in the early 2000s. If Cohn gets his way, the consequences will be similar: disaster.

(...)
[RI-D Sen. Jack] Reed made precisely this point in speaking to the suitability of Steve Mnuchin — a former Goldman Sachs executive vice president — as Treasury secretary:

”An individual who made his fortune aggressively foreclosing on his fellow Americans does not possess the right values, in my view, to be our Treasury secretary. Based on his record, I am not convinced Mr. Mnuchin is capable of draining the swamp, and I fear he may end up further rigging the system in favor of the 1% at the expense of working-class Americans.”

But the Senate confirmed Mnuchin, which suggests that we are about to come full circle. (...)
financial deregulation in the 1980s and 1990s led to a real-estate boom in the early 2000s; that set the stage for the 2008 financial bust, which in turn gave rise to a new wave of reform in 2010 and after. The reforms were serious; but they did not go far enough, and they can be rolled back without much difficulty.

The Trump administration is poised to do exactly that.

The big banks will get bigger. Capital levels will fall. And reasonable risk-management practices will again become unfashionable. Powerful people do well from booms and busts. The rest of us can expect deeper inequality and more crisis-induced poverty.

If the discussion in this and other threads is any hint, then Trump has a good chance to survive for at least one full term. And his undoing will not be Russiagate or his mental health, or a climate catastrophe event. And surely not the corporate kleptocracy he represents (because the Dems are just as evil, hahaha). Trump's fall will be the next big financial crash... (Hmmm, or, that could be the Big Bang that gives his ilk dictatorial powers, and then good bye planet Earth...)

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #187 on: May 04, 2017, 10:37:48 PM »
I'm now officially done with The Jimmy Dore Show. This one was the last drop in my bucket:
"Obama Gives Finger To Country—Takes $400K From Wall Street"

Rush Limbaugh would be less waste of time, being somewhat entertaining at least. And methinks Rush wasn't much more effective in doing propaganda for Republican voters.

* $400k would make any serious European soccer player laugh.
* Trump took $1000k-$1500k for speeches (2005-7).
* Reagan $1000k (then).
(Source: http://publicspeaking.co.ke/post/10-highest-paid-public-speakers-in-the-world (2012) won't look up more)

Context of such speeches: https://www.ft.com/content/35802190-2c06-11e7-bc4b-5528796fe35c

Here's what Obama plans to do with the money: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/obamas-to-visit-chicago-to-discuss-planned-library-museum/2017/05/03/d37cb970-2fbd-11e7-a335-fa0ae1940305_story.html

Thanks for confirming that Obama isn't that much different from Rush Limbaugh, Trump and Reagan, Martin. I hope you also enjoyed the pictures with Branson and Obama's Hollywood buddies.

Maybe he can do his next speech at Exxon, Lockheed or Pfizer for 500K.

But we should be discussing this in the Corporate Democrats thread.

Neven, look at the numbers. Obama is less than half of Reagan, and less than a third of Trump :)

Less bad is not the same as good or better. Obama should be zero of Reagan and Trump (like Jimmy Carter is), he shouldn't be giving speeches to Wall Street firms, and he should donate all the money he ever makes to good causes (that insane book deal is more than enough for the next five Obama generations to live off).

This isn't just about morality, it's also about perception. It's this kind of stuff that makes it so easy for Republicans to smear Democrats. And I don't understand why you so vehemently defend this and say you will no longer watch Jimmy Dore because he's so good at explaining why Obama's behaviour is so disastrous.
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Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #188 on: May 04, 2017, 11:00:19 PM »
Less bad is not the same as good or better. Obama should be zero of Reagan and Trump
Philosophically, yes. Pragmatically, no, that's not how the U.S. polit theater works.

Quote
It's this kind of stuff that makes it so easy for Republicans to smear Democrats.
What drives me nuts is Dems smearing Dems. Like Dore smeared Obama.

Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #189 on: May 04, 2017, 11:11:43 PM »
Reps don't give a hoot about Obama's $400k speech. Only perfectionist leftists do.

My favorite pundit Bill Maher recently explained the problem better than I can. Alas I couldn't yet find that interview. What made Obama bad was his trying to "work" with Republicans. And now he gets smeared for the "little" he accomplished against them. (But heck, he 1. introduced some improved health insurance 2. didn't let the Paris climate talks fail. After decades of other presidents failing there. That is achievement enough for the history books. Even if it wasn't perfect 100%)
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 11:17:20 PM by Martin Gisser »

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #190 on: May 04, 2017, 11:48:38 PM »
Less bad is not the same as good or better. Obama should be zero of Reagan and Trump
Philosophically, yes. Pragmatically, no, that's not how the U.S. polit theater works.

There's your problem right there. If you don't change that, you're not going to change anything ever.

Quote
What drives me nuts is Dems smearing Dems. Like Dore smeared Obama.

It's not a smear. Obama stuffs his pockets with Wall Street money, his reward for bailing out the banks, failing to break them up, and screwing homeowners all over the US.

He did all that, just like he made it possible for the next president to throw anyone in jail without a trial (like 'ecoterrorists' in the near future), like he expanded the (illegal) war effort in the Middle East, like he pushed for fracking and the TPP. And so on.

But people are still so enamoured with him, his pretty smile and pretty words, that they don't care (to know). Come on, Martin, you're smarter than that. Don't identify with a team so much, because it forces you to take untenable positions. If it quacks like a duck...

Look what your favorite pundit has to say about it:

! No longer available
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TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #191 on: May 05, 2017, 12:05:41 AM »
It isn't perfection I seek, it's blatantly turning their back on the very people that have historically made up the party's base that appalls me.


Do you also approve of Hunter Bidden and Heinz jumping into Ukrainian fracking?


I for one don't see the wealthy as inherently flawed. I don't preach class hostility, and I do set different standards for Republicans and Democrats.


Bidden sold out. Kerry sold out. Clinton sold out. Obama sold out.
Neven's bandwidth would be taxed if I listed them all.


This isn't "a Dem smearing Dems" this is a lifelong Democrat who is enraged that our party has been sold to the highest bidders. This is a lifelong Democrat who is enraged that our "leaders" don't even try to hide their rapacity. This is a lifelong Democrat who won't welcome a Republican Lite Party.
My Democrats don't drone individuals.
My Democrats don't push for war.
My Democrats don't curtail welfare.
and
My Democrats don't accept bribes in or out of office.


Is that really so much to ask?
Terry




Buddy

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #192 on: May 05, 2017, 12:10:34 AM »
Quote
Thanks for confirming that Obama isn't that much different from Rush Limbaugh, Trump and Reagan, Martin. I hope you also enjoyed the pictures with Branson and Obama's Hollywood buddies.

Maybe he can do his next speech at Exxon, Lockheed or Pfizer for 500K.

But we should be discussing this in the Corporate Democrats thread.

That dirty Obama.  I HATE THAT when he takes from the rich....and then turns around and gives $2 million dollars to the poor......this time poor kids in Chicago.  ;)

He "isn't much different from Rush Limbauch, Trumpand Reagan...."

Yea....I absolutely agree......
 

FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #193 on: May 05, 2017, 12:21:53 AM »
You too, Buddy. Why do you defend an untenable position? Why can't you just admit that this makes Obama and by extension Democrats look bad? Even if it's unfair (let's say), the perception of most people will be unfavourable. Was it so difficult for Obama to let that Wall Street offer slide? He's not stupid, he knew how this would look. But he did it anyway.

It's a slap in the face. And I'm not a masochist.
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Buddy

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #194 on: May 05, 2017, 12:28:51 AM »
Quote
You too, Buddy. Why do you defend an untenable position? Why can't you just admit that this makes Obama and by extension Democrats look bad? Even if it's unfair (let's say), the perception of most people will be unfavourable. Was it so difficult for Obama to let that Wall Street offer slide? He's not stupid, he knew how this would look. But he did it anyway.

Hey...I was AGREEING WITH YOU.  I was using YOUR WORDS.  Did you think my agreement with you was so outlandish that I must have been sarcastic?
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Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #195 on: May 05, 2017, 12:30:49 AM »
That dirty Obama.  I HATE THAT when he takes from the rich....and then turns around and gives $2 million dollars to the poor......this time poor kids in Chicago.  ;)
Yeah. And by my fuzzy logic (i.e.: there's more than either-0-or-1) my beloved Hillary is even worse (not just same, as Neven seems to argue). :)

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #196 on: May 05, 2017, 12:38:53 AM »
Did you think my agreement with you was so outlandish that I must have been sarcastic?

No, I was looking at your comment and when I saw 'and then turns around and gives $2 million dollars to the poor......this time poor kids in Chicago', I figured you were being sarcastic.

Is there a transcript of that speech he gave, or does he still have to give it? It'd be kind of cool if he had accepted the money and then preached and ranted for 45 minutes about how they are destroying the American people and the world (and their own souls).
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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #197 on: May 05, 2017, 01:20:15 AM »
It's quite possible that Trump will lose his following, and that whoever runs against him in 2020 will win.
Who would you like to be in that enviable position?


Do we want someone who owes his success to Bankers, Big Oil & the MIC?


The present DNC leadership can deliver up no other, they're already bought, & they sold us out last time.
Do they care more about winning an election, or holding their jobs?
If they were concerned with the outcome of the next election - they would have resigned!


Democrats don't win as kinder, gentler, Republicans, and when they do slip by, we end up with kinder, gentler, Republicans in office.


Obamacare is/was Romneycare writ large. Trumpcare will be the same with rougher edges. Who pushes for single payer, you know, the plan that eliminates insurance companies & provides healthcare for everyone.
Who will champion bringing home the troops. Not someone who owes the MIC.
Who will enact a large carbon tax? Not someone who has fed at Big Oil's trough.
Who will follow Iceland's lead with the Banksters? Not one who accepts their money.


Trump proved that you don't need the huge donors to win. Can't we learn from that?
Terry

Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #198 on: May 05, 2017, 01:41:27 AM »
Here's the Bill Maher interview I mentioned.
Short and beeped version: https://www.attn.com/videos/16897/bill-maher-has-some-advice-democrats
Long version with a good laugh at the end: https://www.attn.com/stories/16642/bill-mahers-advice-democrats

Jimmy Dore is sorta following his advice... (Heck I just wasted another 30min checking this 0.6 x smear: like last year's checking Russo-American Fakebook stuff... but then I had to close the windows on Bill Clinton and mass incarceration and on Obama and habeas corpus, before I got to the end of Dore's rant... Stuff no serious Trump voter cares about. Stuff for those who need an excuse for having voted Trump.)

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #199 on: May 05, 2017, 06:15:40 AM »
https://justicedemocrats.com/FAQ

These guys seem to have some of the same ideas we are exploring. I have watched some Cenk Uygur shows before, and he seems intelligent enough. 

sidd