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TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1750 on: December 01, 2018, 09:51:06 PM »

It's embarrassing when a respected global newspaper launches a major investigative series and can't really nail the subject down. Neither can the people it interviews: Hillary Clinton, for example, admits she was "absolutely dumbfounded" by how Donald Trump ate her lunch every day during the 2016 presidential campaign. She still doesn't get it.

Shirley, you jest. (Airplane! 1980)

The Guardian is neither respected nor respectable. It should come delivered in a plain brown paper wrapper to protect it's recipient from the sneers of his neighbors. Keeping copies under the counter in news stands to protect minds of impressionable youths should be mandated.

Wrapping fish with it would spread the rot.
Terry
One should therefore depend on - the Murdoch Newspapers? After all, the Wall Street Journal's reputation is well-deserved.


Fleet Street or Fleet Enemas, the results are now the same.


Our last heroic herald is being publicly pilloried at the Ecuadorian Embassy, unable to defend himself even as mental and moral midgets throw their crap at his legacy.


Murdoch's reputation has stained far greater publications than the WSJ, but the malodorous stench of anything Murdoch touches has been enough to drive off all but nastiest of beetles. The Guardian for decades promised fresh insights, now it too reeks of authoritative cynicism, designed to disinform the deludable.
Terry

wili

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1751 on: December 02, 2018, 05:18:00 PM »
"designed to disinform the deludable"

Terry, you are reaching new heights of alliterative, elocutionary excellence! :)
« Last Edit: December 02, 2018, 08:42:36 PM by wili »
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Lurk

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1752 on: December 05, 2018, 12:32:39 PM »
Solving Climate Change means changing 'The System' because nothing changes when nothing changes.
Each one of us must consider our deepest values, proceed to act from this standpoint alone, ignoring other voices of illusion, false hope, and distraction that might threaten to throw us off course.

Lurk

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1753 on: December 05, 2018, 04:31:04 PM »
Camille Paglia: ‘Hillary wants Trump to win again’

excerpt:

Is humanity losing its sense of humor?

As a bumptious adolescent in upstate New York, I stumbled on a British collection of Oscar Wilde’s epigrams in a secondhand bookstore. It was an electrifying revelation, a text that I studied like the bible. What bold, scathing wit, cutting through the sentimental fog of those still rigidly conformist early 1960s, when good girls were expected to simper and defer.

But I never fully understood Wilde’s caustic satire of Victorian philanthropists and humanitarians until the present sludgy tide of political correctness began flooding government, education, and media over the past two decades. Wilde saw the insufferable arrogance and preening sanctimony in his era’s self-appointed guardians of morality.

We’re back to the hypocrisy sweepstakes, where gestures of virtue are as formalized as kabuki. Humor has been assassinated. An off word at work or school will get you booted to the gallows. This is the graveyard of liberalism, whose once noble ideals have turned spectral and vampiric.

https://spectator.us/camille-paglia-hillary-trump/
Solving Climate Change means changing 'The System' because nothing changes when nothing changes.
Each one of us must consider our deepest values, proceed to act from this standpoint alone, ignoring other voices of illusion, false hope, and distraction that might threaten to throw us off course.

Lurk

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1754 on: December 06, 2018, 01:18:20 PM »
Because this is the only Democrats thread, latest news on Biden

"I think I’m the most qualified person in the country to be president. The issues that we face as a country today are the issues that I’ve worked on my whole life — the plight of the middle class and foreign policy," Biden told an audience in Montana, according to The Missoula Current. "But my family and I need to decide as a unit whether we’re ready — we do everything as a family."

Biden said his decision would come in the next six weeks to two months, according to a CNN report, in line with the timeline he offered when discussing his plans on Election Day.
Solving Climate Change means changing 'The System' because nothing changes when nothing changes.
Each one of us must consider our deepest values, proceed to act from this standpoint alone, ignoring other voices of illusion, false hope, and distraction that might threaten to throw us off course.

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1755 on: December 07, 2018, 09:54:23 PM »
ROI on politicians is the best:

" ... incoming Ways and Means Committee chair Rep. Richard Neal (D-Mass.), who has denounced Medicare for All as "not realistic" and will soon be in a position to tank healthcare plans that are unacceptable to his insurance industry donors."

"Neal will have near total control over what tax-related policies come to the House floor, including legislation that would create a Medicare for All healthcare system,"

"Neal—who has served as the top Ways and Means Democrat since 2016—has received more insurance industry cash throughout his career than any other member of the incoming Congress, including Republicans."

"Neal has relied on support from the health care industry, receiving $950,000 from health professionals and associations and $750,000 from the pharmaceutical industry."

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2018/12/06/power-kneecap-bold-demand-incoming-democratic-tax-committee-chair-says-medicare-all

sidd

TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1756 on: December 09, 2018, 03:00:12 PM »
So, the first task for Democrats who are for a single payer health care system is to get rid of Richard Neal (D). The health care status quo's Billion Dollar Baby.


Remember back when the Republicans were the Party of Big Business?
Terry

Lurk

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1757 on: December 12, 2018, 02:48:56 AM »
Old & new News - Backgrounder on the DNC - Democratic (sic) Party Lawsuit against Wikileaks and Julian Assange by Jimmy Dore.

Quote
DNC Threatens Press Freedom - Wikileaks Pushes Back Hard (30 mins)

"So you know that WikiLeaks exposed the DNC for the rigging of the 2016 primary .... and so instead of the DNC actually reforming itself which is what needs to happen it again does more stuff to distract people. It's suing WikiLeaks ....the DNC is suing a newspaper organization or a news organization, for literally reporting the truth..... now WikiLeaks is counter-suing them,

and so I just wanted to walk you through this because it's clear that most people don't understand what's going on in this case ..... over to the Committee to Protect Journalists right they have a website and they put out an article *by suing WikiLeaks the DNC could endanger principles of press freedom* it's written by Avi Asher Shapiro US correspondent for the CPJ."
[...]

"So what they're do is they're criminalizing journalists having a point of view. That's what the DNC lawsuit is trying to do. [...] What (Goodale) is saying here is that what Julian Assange (of Wikileaks) was doing is normal journalistic activity. And now trying to criminalize that is the greatest threat to press freedom today.

"What's the greatest threat to press freedom today? Trump taking away Jim Acosta's microphone? Is it Trump telling a reporter that "that's a stupid question"? Is it Trump saying that "someone is doing fake news"? No, turns out the greatest threat to press freedom today comes directly from the Democratic National Committee.

"Ironic because if you just watch the mainstream news uncritically you would think it was Julian Assange. You would think it was the WikiLeaks. You would think it was Trump. You would think it was Trump as the greatest threat to press freedom today. Turns out it's their enemies. It's Trump's enemies (the DNC and Hillary Clinton et al ... who are the greatest threat to press freedom today!) Isn't that wild?" [...]


JD video url [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwHsbA0YJdc]

References:
May 29, 2018 Committee to Protect Journalists
https://cpj.org/blog/2018/05/by-suing-wikileaks-dnc-could-endanger-principles-o.php

Dec 7 - WikiLeaks Asks Judge to Toss DNC Conspiracy Claims
https://www.courthousenews.com/wikileaks-asks-judge-to-toss-dnc-conspiracy-claims/

Legal Brief - MEMORANDUM OF LAW IN SUPPORT OF DEFENDANT WIKILEAKS’S PRE-TRIAL MOTION TO DISMISS THE FIRST AMENDED COMPLAINT
WikiLeaks also joins in the joint Memorandum of Law filed today on behalf of all defendants (“Defendants’ Joint Memo”)

https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/WikiLeaksDNC.pdf

Dec 7 - News report - Wikileaks seeks Dismissal of DNC Lawsuit (sub)
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/dec/7/wikileaks-seeks-dismissal-dnc-lawsuit/

Law360 (December 10, 2018) -- The Trump campaign and WikiLeaks asked a New York federal court to toss the Democratic National Committee’s suit over a pre-election email hack, saying Friday that the suit runs counter to... (sub)

Greenwald in April
https://theintercept.com/2018/04/20/the-dncs-lawsuit-against-wikileaks-poses-a-serious-threat-to-press-freedom/

PBS April - The Democratic National Committee is claiming there was a broad conspiracy to aid Donald Trump’s presidential campaign by hacking and leaking stolen emails. How hard will that be to prove in court? William Brangham gets analysis from Susan Hennessey, executive editor of Lawfare
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/how-the-dnc-lawsuit-could-become-a-powerful-tool

Politico: Sanders campaign withdraws lawsuit against DNC
https://wikileaks.org/dnc-emails/emailid/6478
https://wikileaks.org/dnc-emails/emailid/6320
Flag: Judge Throws Out Lawsuit Challenging Arizona’s Disastrous Primary (ThinkProgress)
https://wikileaks.org/dnc-emails/emailid/30180

Comment:
You'd think that those who write the Laws would be capable of understanding those laws. Well of course they do. The DNC are intentionally "hand-waving" to falsely claim they have been 'harmed' by the actions of others - not their own actions - by presenting a false scenario that "the sky is falling!"

But they know precisely what they are up to and why. It's called using the Courts to intentionally intimidate, to bully, to wear down, and to harass other parties by Abusing the Power inherent in the DNC and those who support it. That Power resides in their Mega Wealth and in the established Institution it already is within America's deep psyche.

They know this. And so they use it. They can afford to waste donors money on frivolous Lawsuits they know are going to fail. So they do it. Why? Because they can get away with it. They can afford it. The "news value" and the "propaganda value" is worth every penny.

The Plausible Deniability for this is also shit easy as - "Oh we really thought we had a solid RICO conspiracy case. We think the judge is wrong and we are considering Appealing once we have the time for our Lawyers to properly vet the Judge's decision. Then I suspect we will be taking this Lawsuit against Wikileaks all the way to the Supreme Court if we have too."

That will get reported for 24-48 hours all over the MSM ... and not anything else. Shit easy this stuff. It's as easy as making up some Fake News! ;)
« Last Edit: December 12, 2018, 06:39:12 AM by Lurk »
Solving Climate Change means changing 'The System' because nothing changes when nothing changes.
Each one of us must consider our deepest values, proceed to act from this standpoint alone, ignoring other voices of illusion, false hope, and distraction that might threaten to throw us off course.

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1758 on: December 12, 2018, 07:08:50 PM »
Old & new News - Backgrounder on the DNC - Democratic (sic) Party Lawsuit against Wikileaks and Julian Assange by Jimmy Dore.

Here's the video Lurk refers to. I find it amazing that the DNC is suing Wikileaks, and even more amazing that hardly any journalist is reporting on this threat to their profession. This stuff is really nuts, and underscores how big a hurdle Corporate Democrats are to meaningful change:

Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

wili

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1759 on: December 14, 2018, 02:32:06 AM »
More on sidd's story here:

https://gritpost.com/health-lobbyists-centrist-democrats/?fbclid=IwAR1VJJmaTVjIhsppMeRRYvQhfmh-x01opfwEvLCyJ54NBVip1MgJZf5mEgc

Health Insurance Lobbyists Team Up with Centrist Democrats to Crush Medicare for All

(I think the phrase should be 'gang up' and the object of 'crush' should simply be 'all of us'!  >:( )
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Lurk

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1760 on: December 14, 2018, 08:47:42 AM »
What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action? (Cop24 Kevin Anderson Hugh Hunt)
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1364.msg184085.html#msg184085

This is also new ... though am unsure if it marks any significant change from the norm:

Democrats Betray Environment and 'rational' Climate Action by Appointing Senator Joe Manchin of West Virginia as the Democratic Ranking-member of the Senate Energy Committee.

This 'appears' completely at odds with any plan for real climate action. The West Virginia senator's promotion was ratified Tuesday evening by members of the Senate Democratic caucus for the next term of Congress.

Solving Climate Change means changing 'The System' because nothing changes when nothing changes.
Each one of us must consider our deepest values, proceed to act from this standpoint alone, ignoring other voices of illusion, false hope, and distraction that might threaten to throw us off course.

TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1761 on: December 14, 2018, 09:49:45 AM »
Apparently primary elections are every bit as important as the elections themselves.


2020 and the primaries preceding it are going to present problems to anyone with even a slightly progressive agenda.
Terry 

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1762 on: December 15, 2018, 03:46:28 PM »
Democrats Betray Environment and 'rational' Climate Action by Appointing Senator Joe Manchin of West Virginia as the Democratic Ranking-member of the Senate Energy Committee.

I'm sure there is a reasonable-sounding explanation, but stuff like this really baffles me. And right out in the open too.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1763 on: December 16, 2018, 10:02:50 PM »
Correction. What baffles me, is that other people don't seem to see it:

Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1764 on: December 20, 2018, 12:13:27 AM »
Luke Savage at Jacobin on the devolution of liberalism:

"The animating mission here is less to combat injustice than to efficiently manage discontent"

"In theory, modern liberalism is a set of ideas about human freedom, markets, and representative government. In practice, or so it now seems to me, it has largely become a political affect, and a quintessentially conservative one at that: a set of reflexes common to those with a Panglossian faith in capitalist markets and the institutions that attempt to sustain them amid our flailing global order. In theory, it is an ideology of progress. In practice, it has become the secular theology of the status quo; the mechanism through which the gilded buccaneers of Silicon Valley, Wall Street, and multinational capital rationalize hierarchy and exploitation while fostering resignation and polite deference among those they seek to rule."

Read the whole thing:

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2018/12/liberalism-theory-practice-obama-trudeau

sidd

Lurk

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1765 on: December 20, 2018, 05:01:04 AM »
This kind of thing was always going to happen. AOC being gaslighted by conservatives, and a backlash against her by some on the 'left' and the genuine question of will she walk the talk of her own campaigning, or not long term? Once one is 'inside the tent' all the dynamics begin to change. That's a known fact. The future is what is unknown.

28 Nov 2018 Daniel Haiphong, author of the upcoming book “American Exceptionalism and American Innocence”, joins Anya to discuss his recent contribution to the Black Agenda Report which accuses Ocasio-Cortez running a PR stunt to help Pelosi.
Solving Climate Change means changing 'The System' because nothing changes when nothing changes.
Each one of us must consider our deepest values, proceed to act from this standpoint alone, ignoring other voices of illusion, false hope, and distraction that might threaten to throw us off course.

Lurk

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1766 on: December 20, 2018, 05:17:57 PM »
You may have seen the outtake video of Obama bragging about making the USA the biggest Oil producer when he was President.

But did you see the other part where he bragged about how much money Wall Street was making when he was President?

in the following video first part at 11:35 and then at 12:55 "Just say thank you please"
https://www.rt.com/shows/redacted-tonight-summary/445925-pentagon-huge-trillion-funding/

Is the original Obama talk video avail in full?
Solving Climate Change means changing 'The System' because nothing changes when nothing changes.
Each one of us must consider our deepest values, proceed to act from this standpoint alone, ignoring other voices of illusion, false hope, and distraction that might threaten to throw us off course.

Lurk

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1767 on: December 22, 2018, 02:23:31 AM »
Is it not amazing how stupid people can be? Even overpaid career US Senators? ;)

Solving Climate Change means changing 'The System' because nothing changes when nothing changes.
Each one of us must consider our deepest values, proceed to act from this standpoint alone, ignoring other voices of illusion, false hope, and distraction that might threaten to throw us off course.

wili

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1768 on: January 03, 2019, 12:34:23 AM »
Already, corporate dems are working to limit what progressives can do with a 'pay as you go' rule:

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/progressives-ro-khanna-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-paygo-rules-fight_us_5c2d2401e4b0407e9087b393

"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1769 on: January 03, 2019, 03:26:49 AM »
Money and drugs: Pharm Nation

" ... House Democrats selected Rep. Steny Hoyer of Maryland to serve as the next majority leader and Rep. James Clyburn of South Carolina as majority whip, making them the No. 2 and No. 3 most powerful Democrats ... "

"Both lawmakers have received more than $1 million from pharmaceutical company political action committees ..."

"Adding Rep. Nancy Pelosi, the California Democrat expected to be the next speaker, the three-person House Democratic leadership team has collected more than $2.3 million total in campaign contributions from drugmakers ..."

"In the past decade, members of Congress from both parties have received about $81 million from 68 pharma PACs In the past decade, members of Congress from both parties have received about $81 million from 68 pharma PACs  ..."

https://khn.org/news/democrats-taking-key-leadership-jobs-have-pocketed-millions-from-pharma/

ROI on buying politicians is incredible. It does not surprise me they are corrupt, rather it is that they are so cheap. For a few millions, make tens of billions. That's better than a thousand to one ROI. As far as illicit drug profits, even cocaine kingpins can only dream of such reward.

sidd
« Last Edit: January 03, 2019, 03:34:18 AM by sidd »

Susan Anderson

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1770 on: January 03, 2019, 08:56:40 PM »
I had promised myself to try and untangle and post a response on behalf of friends and colleagues here, while untangling the mildly offensive and incorrect responses - particularly from Neven - that caused me to leave in August. However, the more I tried to be fair, reasonable, and accurate, the more defiled I felt. So here's a response to ageism and sexism from the NYTimes comment section today, with a tip of the hat to the effective progressive leadership of Nancy Pelosi, affirmed and acclaimed today. The ~15 (vs. 220) who voted against her or "present" were mostly to the center-right of the Democratic party or from Republican districts that demanded a public show of opposition to her. The demonization which seems to have taken strong hold here bears no relationship to the actual woman and her work.

The readership of the NYTimes is to the left of its reporters, who attempt to represent the full range of US citizens, not an easy task in the face of the criminal psychotoddler cowardly greedly bully-in-chief and his enablers. If you think these are not good enough, welcome to the 1% of purity mongers who prefer Republicans to the vast majority of good people here in the US. I have chosen here a few at the top of "Reader Picks":

Quote
silver vibes, Virginia

Unlike the outgoing, enabling and water-carrying Paul Ryan, Nancy Pelosi will stand up to this president and call him out for any abuse of power or deliberate misinterpretation of the Constitution.

The president is in over his head in any one-on-one encounter with Pelosi and he know it. Pelosi is this president’s and Republicans’ worst nightmare. For the first time in his dysfunctional administration, the president will now be held accountable for his missteps and wrongdoing. Ryan gave him a pass for two years but those days are long gone.

Jessica, Sewanee, TN

I am reassured that we have Nancy Pelosi poised to reclaim her post as Speaker of the House.  She is smart, experienced, and cares about the nation and all of its people.  It is clear that Republicans do not, that they are comfortable with blatant lies, corruption, and boosting the fortunes of the 1%. 
 
William Menke, Swarthmore, PA

As a landscape architect, I worked for a woman owned business (ha - my wife's).  I also am old enough to have witnessed, and supported the inclusion of women in all male bastions such at the Rotary Club.  Such vehemence at the changes, and now, it seems all like so much about nothing.

Kudos to Pelosi for getting where she is, the tough way.  She has her toughest job now.   Wish her the very best.  You go, girl!

Fester, Columbus

And so it begins, Mr. President. Just try threatening or buying the silence of this woman.  Go ahead, make Nancy's day.

Bob Burns, McKenzie River Valley

I've always thought that the greatest modern Speaker of the House was Sam Rayburn. I'm not so sure anymore. Nancy Pelosi is the Republicans' worst nightmare come true.

She will shred the opposition not by combat but by persuasion. She is no firebrand. She is a consummate person of the House and knows how it works.

May God bless and keep her in these trying times. She is the right person for the moment.

Vicki lindner, Denver, CO

I'm a new Pelosi fan! When people say she needs to make room for new younger leaders they never specify exactly who those leaders are or what they should accomplish that Pelosi can't when and if  they take charge. Alexandra Ocasio- Cortez is clearly on the list of charismatic newcomers -- and I applaud her idea for a committee on Climate Change-- but she is by no means as experienced politically as Pelosi was when she got the gavel.  Right now, in the age of Trump, we need a time-tested  powerful leader in charge of the house . Pelosi is right to hang on for now.  Plus she is providing a good model of what the first woman President should look like.

arusso, OR

"...long a target of Republicans who have demonized her as a San Francisco liberal..."

My question is,  what is the basis of this demonization? What had Pelosi done or stood for that is so distasteful? So terrible? So harmful? I can think of a dozen male GOP officials who have done things from sleazy to criminal off the top of my head with little effort and Republicans do not seem to care. And no one can clearly articulate to me what is so terrible about a "San Francisco liberal", as if that phrase alone should be explanation enough.  What a world we live in where over a third of the country supports Trump and believes Pelosi is the embodiment of evil.

There are hundreds more. Anywhere she comes up, people who know her and are served by her have nothing but praise. Her biography is admirable.

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1771 on: January 04, 2019, 07:22:19 PM »
PayGo sounds like a really bad idea (and with that I mean bad for the American people, great for the donors):





« Last Edit: January 04, 2019, 08:05:17 PM by Neven »
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SteveMDFP

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1772 on: January 04, 2019, 07:52:26 PM »
PayGo sounds like a really bad idea (and with that I mean bad for the American people, great for the donors):


Both Kulinski and Dore display a severe ignorance of fiscal policy issues.
Among the most severe governance problems in the US is the massive annual deficit and accumulating debt.  Roughly $1 trillion.  Thanks, in large part, to Trump's tax cuts for the rich, as well as increased Defense funding.

With each passing year, more and more spending must then go to interest payments on the debt.  If allowed to continue, debt payments would eventually consume the entire discretionary budget.

Kulinski asserts that Pay-Go should be ignored because Democrats' spending would "expand the economy."  But economic impacts are included in projections by the Congressional Budget Office.  For any program in which this argument makes sense, adoption of Pay-Go is not an obstacle.

Pay-Go does not serve the interests of donors.  It restricts funding for the donors' pet interests.

Pay-Go is a commitment to discipline.  If we want tax burdens to be shifted back towards the wealthy, we should support Pay-Go.  If we want to restrain Defense spending, we should support Pay-Go.  Yes, fiscal discipline makes it more challenging to enact free community college (etc), but it also demonstrates that he Dems are the adults in the room.  That's a real alternative to the Republicans' irresponsibility.  We shouldn't be seeking to emulate these Republicans.

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1773 on: January 04, 2019, 10:02:01 PM »
Both Kulinski and Dore display a severe ignorance of fiscal policy issues.

Yes, they're dumb and you're the smartest boy in the classroom. Pat on the head.
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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1774 on: January 05, 2019, 12:28:43 AM »
Both Kulinski and Dore display a severe ignorance of fiscal policy issues.

Yes, they're dumb and you're the smartest boy in the classroom. Pat on the head.

I explained my perspective on their short-sightedness.  Did you have something substantive to add to the discussion, maybe an explanation of my error?  A critique of CBO scoring methodologies?  An explanation of how Pay-Go serves the interests of donors, rather than stymieing them?  An alternative view of escalating national debt? 
« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 12:41:02 AM by SteveMDFP »

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1776 on: January 05, 2019, 07:05:21 AM »
If you can access this, it's a good short summary of what happened with PayGo.
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/01/paygo-rule-explained-ocasio-cortez-house-democrats-pelosi.html

Posting caricatures of Nancy Pelosi won't work with anyone rational in the US at the moment. She's a good manager. That is not a bad thing. Ocasio-Cortez is working with her, not in opposition. Argument is healthy, and I agree that the optics (and it's just optics) of PayGo are lousy given the liberties Trumpistanians have taken.

I doubt this will transmit across the pond, but it's worth a look. Get a load of the real woman, not the caricature that you've worked so hard to hate.

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1777 on: January 05, 2019, 06:05:23 PM »
https://www.epi.org/blog/the-bad-economics-of-paygo-swamp-any-strategic-gain-from-adopting-it/

sidd

It's a good econ article.  When the baseline of budget deficits is small, Pay-Go is stupid, and if a recession is in effect, disastrous.  That seems plainly true to me.

But right now, we're running trillion-dollar annual deficits, with no current recession to fight.  Pay-Go here just means a commitment to avoid making the deficit even more enormous and unsustainable.

He points out something that I should have been aware of, that Pay-Go at the level of House rules is entirely a tempest in a teapot, a matter of zero actual significance:

"And whatever the House decides to do with its internal rules, there remains a statutory PAYGO requirement that can only be loosened by the House and Senate together. So in the end, embracing PAYGO or not in the next House of Representatives is a purely political decision."

Which in turn means that excoriating Pelosi over implementing the rule is stupid.

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1778 on: January 05, 2019, 06:37:08 PM »
Doesn't Pay-Go eliminate:


Single payer healthcare.
Lowering pharmaceutical costs
Spending to clean up the environment
Spending to monitor the environment
Investing in HSR
Relief from education debt


and any number of popular programs that Democrats have successfully campaigned for.


Why would we want to champion taking these off the table?
Do we wish to engage with the Republicans by vying to be the greater at leading the country into the failed austerity programs that have proven themselves so ineffective, as well as being very unpopular around the world?


Have Pelosi enact some austerity programs in her own district, say by turning down federal and state grants for higher education, investments in Bart - or even highway maintenance. Once the next election results are in she'll have proof of how well these programs are received by the voting public, and the rest of her colleges will be jumping on board. ::)


Austerity is always good for them, never for us.
Terry

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1779 on: January 05, 2019, 07:05:18 PM »
Doesn't Pay-Go eliminate:


Single payer healthcare.
Lowering pharmaceutical costs
Spending to clean up the environment
Spending to monitor the environment
Investing in HSR
Relief from education debt


and any number of popular programs that Democrats have successfully campaigned for.


Why would we want to champion taking these off the table?
Do we wish to engage with the Republicans by vying to be the greater at leading the country into the failed austerity programs that have proven themselves so ineffective, as well as being very unpopular around the world?


Have Pelosi enact some austerity programs in her own district, say by turning down federal and state grants for higher education, investments in Bart - or even highway maintenance. Once the next election results are in she'll have proof of how well these programs are received by the voting public, and the rest of her colleges will be jumping on board. ::)


Austerity is always good for them, never for us.
Terry

Pay-Go doesn't require austerity at all.  We're running trillion-dollar deficits.  In macroeconomic terms, that's the opposite of austerity.  Pay-Go just means we shouldn't run even bigger deficits.  Pay-Go isn't a requirement for a balanced budget (a stupid goal), it means not making the current annual deficit even bigger (a necessary goal).

If we can't fund those desired advances while running trillion-dollar deficits, then the problem isn't Pay-Go.  The actual problem is the last half-dozen rounds of tax cuts for the rich, and massive spending on "defense."

Trillion-dollar deficits aren't sustainable.  That problem *has* to be fixed.  Hard choices are needed.  We can fund *all* of the above under Pay-Go rules, we just have to reverse some tax cuts and defense spending.

Passing ObamaCare under Pay-Go meant increasing a number of taxes.  (Back then Pay-Go imposed needless restrictions.)  We also basically flat-funded defense (already too big).  We can do it again, with enough political will.

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1780 on: January 05, 2019, 08:29:33 PM »

Passing ObamaCare under Pay-Go meant increasing a number of taxes.  (Back then Pay-Go imposed needless restrictions.)  We also basically flat-funded defense (already too big).  We can do it again, with enough political will.


Political will is fairly easy. Political won't, not so much.


Whoever is out of power demands that those in power restrain their out of control spending. They're adamant about this until they wrest power from those prodigious spendthrifts. At this point the roles are reversed and the new opposition demands that the new rulers pay attention to the very thing that they themselves so recently ignored.


Does anyone believe that America could, or would pay their bloated debts? If they can't/wont pay back a Trillion, why worry when the amount they can't/wont pay back reaches 10 Trillion or a Hundred Trillion?


They squeezed their supposed allies to pay their debts after WWII, but no one has the military strength to demand the same from the U.S.


Russia, Iran, and increasingly China, India, Pakistan and others are pricing their transactions in local currencies. When the EU finds it can purchase all it's needs without need of American Dollars, those holding Dollars will find themselves holding something that the rest of the world has no need of.
Those wanting Saudi oil may still need to pay with American Bucks, but those satisfied with Iranian or Russian petroleum, Chinese Clothing or Russian Rockets may discover that they don't need Uncle Sam's Script for anything at all. The Saudi's may find they've a Yen for Chinese commerce, then the ride comes to an end.


This is when the US may deign to pay back her dollar denominated debt. A million dollars may not buy a loaf of bread, but Trillions of debt will be paid off or forgotten and forgiven.


Until that happy day why should we worry about debt in a zero interest world. We'll pretend that we'll pay it back, they'll pretend that they believe us, and the world will live in harmony, for a little longer. ::)
Terry

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1781 on: January 05, 2019, 09:06:05 PM »

Does anyone believe that America could, or would pay their bloated debts? If they can't/wont pay back a Trillion, why worry when the amount they can't/wont pay back reaches 10 Trillion or a Hundred Trillion?


Well, I essentially agree with all of this.  Except that the day the US Treasury fails to pay the interest payments on Treasury bills (default on the debt), the interest rates demanded by the market will skyrocket.  And then the government's house of debt will instantly become vastly more expensive to maintain, and fiscal spending on actual needs will become mathematically impossible.  Which is why running the current trillion dollar deficits is unsustainable.

Absent more current fiscal restraint, the only way out of that eventual fiscal-socioeconomic-political-human catastrophe is printing sufficient money to pay the debt costs--"quantitative easing."  QE can theoretically pay for any amount of debt, but only at the necessary cost of hyper-inflation.  That might cause slightly less damage than turning fiscal spending (outside of debt payments) to zero, but only somewhat less.

So, adopting Pay-Go is just a step in the direction of averting eventual catastrophe.

Moderate deficits can be sustained indefinitely, at the cost of moderate inflation.  Huge deficits will eventually cause huge human suffering.  The rational decision is to tax the wealthy, reduce military spending, accept moderate inflation, and make sure other spending serves real needs, keeping some rough semblance of fiscal restraint.  This is actually the standard Democratic playbook.  This is what Pelosi is following by Pay-Go.  It's not austerity at all.  There really is no rational alternative.

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1782 on: January 05, 2019, 11:28:55 PM »
Re: QE can theoretically pay for any amount of debt, but only at the necessary cost of hyper-inflation.


Mmmm. Thats what the fiscal hawks were screamin in 2008. As usual, they were wrong. See any hyperinflation here ?

In a larger sense, paygo makes any new program more difficult to get thru. You will either have to pay thru cutting other programs, which makes enemies or a tax raise which is blindly resisted by many. Paygo is a DNC move to cut out the legs under climate action and new social programs.

sidd


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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1783 on: January 06, 2019, 05:32:32 AM »
Re: QE can theoretically pay for any amount of debt, but only at the necessary cost of hyper-inflation.


Mmmm. Thats what the fiscal hawks were screamin in 2008. As usual, they were wrong. See any hyperinflation here ?

In a larger sense, paygo makes any new program more difficult to get thru. You will either have to pay thru cutting other programs, which makes enemies or a tax raise which is blindly resisted by many. Paygo is a DNC move to cut out the legs under climate action and new social programs.

sidd

In response to the GFC, the Federal Reserve created about $4 trillion.  And no, that didn't create inflation, because we were in a severe economic downturn.  Without that much stimulus, we would have had deflation. 

Annual budget deficits are now running about $1 trillion *per year*.  QE was $4 trillion *total*.

Rational economic policy in a downturn looks very different from rational policy when growth is strong.

Trillion-dollar deficits cannot be sustained indefinitely.  Here's why:

As Debt Rises, the Government Will Soon Spend More on Interest Than on the Military
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/25/business/economy/us-government-debt-interest.html

"Finding the money to pay investors who hold government debt will crimp other parts of the budget. In a decade, interest on the debt will eat up 13 percent of government spending, up from 6.6 percent in 2017.

“By 2020, we will spend more on interest than we do on kids, including education, food stamps and aid to families,” said Marc Goldwein, senior policy director at the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget, a research and advocacy organization.

Interest costs already dwarf spending on many popular programs. For example, grants to students from low-income families for college total roughly $30 billion — about one-tenth of what the government will pay in interest this year. Interest payments will overtake Medicaid in 2020 and the Department of Defense budget in 2023."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pay-Go just keeps us from digging ourselves into a deeper hole faster.  That's the bare minimum of rational decision-making right now. 

Regardless, as Bivens points out in the EPI article, a Pay-Go rule for the House makes no difference in the end.  A statutory Pay-Go rule exists regardless.  Circumventing that law requires agreement of both houses, and avoiding a veto.  All Pelosi has done is to signal to the public that she wants to be less insane than the Republicans.  I can't see anything wrong with that.

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1784 on: January 06, 2019, 06:31:42 AM »
Two things are mixed up here. Deficit is USgov debt. QE is FRB (not federal, not reserve, not bank, but there you have it)  asset increase.  These are not the same thing.

QE by FRB was primarily used to buy private debt like mortgage assets off the banks at face value. That was a huge scam, FASB had to suspend mark to market as well, but regardless of FASB, FRB can do anything it wants. Even without TARP, Bernanke had 800 billion he could have given anybody, including me or you, without a vote of the FRB. They didnt really buy much gov debt debt(T bonds, bills, notes), but they could.

Now tell me again why FRB purchase of government debt at any interest rate they choose will stoke hyperinflation ? Nothing prevents the FRB at buying US ( or other) gov debt for any value, including above market value and turn it into zero coupon. Which takes away the interest payment problem.

The house of cards will not collapse due to deficit run by USgov or QE by FRB. It will collapse when US power wanes to the extent that nobody trades under US terms, no one respects US sanctions and US tariffs, when financing and markets moves outta NYC and London to places like Shanghai and Bombay and the wealth pump from the rest of the globe to the USA sputters and stalls. When that happens, regardless of USgov deficit or FRB QE position, Empire will fall.

But thats a discussion for another thread.

sidd
« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 06:48:00 AM by sidd »

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1785 on: January 06, 2019, 07:39:39 AM »
Two things are mixed up here. Deficit is USgov debt. QE is FRB (not federal, not reserve, not bank, but there you have it)  asset increase.  These are not the same thing.
. . .
Now tell me again why FRB purchase of government debt at any interest rate they choose will stoke hyperinflation ? 


Entirely correct that QE and fiscal deficits are very different things.  But they're related if one wants to finance large deficits indefinitely. 

When the Federal Reserve purchases Treasury securities (and holds them to maturity) it creates new money.  This is printing dollars (where "printing" is electronic).  Contrary to what most people think about "printing money,"  a certain amount of this is probably a good thing.  But too much of this when the economy is strong will plainly cause inflation.

If you want to finance trillion dollar annual deficits on an ongoing basis, the Federal Reserve needs to buy around a trillion in Treasury securities annually.  The worst economic crisis since the Great Depression prompted the Fed to create a total of $4 trillion in QE.  The Fed just isn't going to be QEing like this.

There are certainly economists who think substantial deficits can be sustained.  But these theoreticians don't often address the problem noted in the NYT article--our current path is forcing a fiscal disaster, with ever-increasing obligations to pay interest on the ballooning debt.

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1786 on: January 06, 2019, 07:48:32 AM »
... All Pelosi has done is to signal to the public that she wants to be less insane than the Republicans. I can't see anything wrong with that.

Maybe that's because you may not be paying enough attention (value) on the Yardstick you are choosing as the comparison?

eg consider that: A Psychopath is less insane than a Schizophrenic in full bloom. A Psychopath is less insane than a Sociopath. A Borderline Personality is less insane than a Sociopath. An OCD is less insane than a BPD person.

Like I said, it all depends on which yardstick you wish to select to prove your point (belief) that something or someone is "less harmful" than others.

While "wanting" and "being" is another question entirely but equally problematic. Far better to judge people on their past actions than their future promises. Because 'Words' are cheap, especially the word of politicians a majority of whom are rent-seeking in their own self-interests.
Solving Climate Change means changing 'The System' because nothing changes when nothing changes.
Each one of us must consider our deepest values, proceed to act from this standpoint alone, ignoring other voices of illusion, false hope, and distraction that might threaten to throw us off course.

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1787 on: January 06, 2019, 08:40:51 AM »
1) First, I do not propose the FRB fund an ongoing deficit. I do propose if the polity is too craven to cut spending on bombing mostly coloured folk in faraway lands, the FRB could step in.

2) as I read your argument: the FRB printing 4 trillion to buy private debt is cool if it saves the bankers, but buyin a trillion or two in green deal and social program debt is not to be considered, nor the ancillary benefits thereof, for risk of disaster.

I put it to you that climate doom is upon us, doubled and redoubled upon our children. So mebbe risk a little disaster ?

3) not that i expect FRB to step in. For that to happen the banks would have to start hurting. Sorta happening already with insurance ...

sidd



« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 08:49:39 AM by sidd »

SteveMDFP

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1788 on: January 06, 2019, 09:16:24 AM »

2) as I read your argument: the FRB printing 4 trillion to buy private debt is cool if it saves the bankers, but buyin a trillion or two in green deal and social program debt is not to be considered, nor the ancillary benefits thereof, for risk of disaster.

I put it to you that climate doom is upon us, doubled and redoubled upon our children. So mebbe risk a little disaster ? 

No, the $4T needed to be issued to avoid a second Great Depression.  Where the money went was not just. 

I do think its crucial that more money goes into, e.g., a green New Deal.  This can and should happen within a sane, sustainable fiscal approach.  Tax burdens need to be shifted back towards the wealthy, insane military spending needs to be reined in.  Not dealing with ever-increasing interest payments just makes it harder to sustain green investments in the long run.


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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1789 on: January 06, 2019, 07:36:41 PM »

I do think its crucial that more money goes into, e.g., a green New Deal.  This can and should happen within a sane, sustainable fiscal approach.

And if it can't be done within a sane, sustainable fiscal approach (MSNBC/FOX/CNN: How ya gonna pay for it, Steve? How ya gonna pay for it? How ya gonna pay for it?), then of course, it shouldn't be done. And thank God, those pie-in-the-sky progressives can be stopped with paygo.
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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1790 on: January 06, 2019, 07:50:27 PM »

I do think its crucial that more money goes into, e.g., a green New Deal.  This can and should happen within a sane, sustainable fiscal approach.

And if it can't be done within a sane, sustainable fiscal approach (MSNBC/FOX/CNN: How ya gonna pay for it, Steve? How ya gonna pay for it? How ya gonna pay for it?), then of course, it shouldn't be done. And thank God, those pie-in-the-sky progressives can be stopped with paygo.

Every single year, a budget gets set by Congress.  Every single budget is a description of the national priorities.  The question really is never "how are we going to pay for this," it's "what items do we choose to fund."

If interest payments are allowed to increase every single year, then *all* discretionary items eventually get crowded out.

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1791 on: January 06, 2019, 10:01:13 PM »
Re:  the $4T needed to be issued to avoid a second Great Depression.  Where the money went was not just.

That is your claim. Mine, and that of several others such as Hudson and Black is  is that the 4TUS$ was to save the banks, not the economy, and that the claim above is propaganda from the oligarchs.

sidd
 

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1792 on: January 06, 2019, 11:19:36 PM »
This might go on the "Que Se Ficieron ?" thread, but i post here: Corporate Dem cashes in

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/01/04/slamming-joe-lieberman-joining-chinese-telecom-giant-warren-calls-lifetime-ban

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1793 on: January 06, 2019, 11:23:14 PM »
Atcheson at commondreams on fire: paygo is morally bankrupt

"colossally stupid"

"the real conflict is between having a viable life-sustaining climate, and having one that cannot support civilization as we now know it.  It’s between having a health care system that delivers health to the people, not wealth to the pharmaceutical corporations and the health insurance industry. It's between developing an economy that benefits us all, versus one that exclusively benefits the top 1 percent."

" Pelosi already sabotaged the climate effort by setting up a weak sister select committee with little authority and even less power."

"these investments would pay for themselves many times over, but pay-go—with its myopic focus on the short term—obscures that fact."

"Doing the Republican’s sabotage for them"

Read the whole thing:

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2019/01/06/self-inflicted-pay-go-rule-democratic-victory-2020-just-got-harder

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1794 on: January 07, 2019, 02:07:14 AM »
Historical look by Hatrtmann at truthdig at deficit, taxes and spending as political weaponry:

"The GOP is about to kick back into Two Santa Clauses mode and restart the scam they’ve been running since Reagan."

"And there are more than a few “Third Way” Democrats eager to go along with it"

"If ... enough “Third Way” and “New Dem” Democrats get on board with the “deficit hawks” to drag down the New Deal progressives, get ready for the second Trump term."

https://www.truthdig.com/articles/thom-hartmann-the-gop-is-reviving-one-of-its-favorite-scams/

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1795 on: January 07, 2019, 02:49:41 AM »
This might go on the "Que Se Ficieron ?" thread, but i post here: Corporate Dem cashes in

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/01/04/slamming-joe-lieberman-joining-chinese-telecom-giant-warren-calls-lifetime-ban

sidd


Lieberman was the poster boy for Corporate Democrats, but why is Warren acting as though foreign corporations (ZTE) is under some obligation to follow American sanctions against Iran. The US is the one violating international law by placing those sanctions.


She calls out Russia, China and Saudi Arabia for lobbying congress, but skips over Israel? Does giving Kerry's son a seat on the board of Ukraine's biggest energy corporation count as foreign lobbying? How about Hunter Biden's position with the same outfit?


Warren apparently was "A top Democratic fund raiser" in 2014 - How does this, and her early support of Hillary Clinton's candidacy mesh with her present stance as a "Progressive"?


I'm 1/1024th convinced of her sincerity.
Terry

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1796 on: January 07, 2019, 05:18:18 AM »
Quote
When Ocasio-Cortez, a leader of the brat pack that has put the old guard on notice, voted for Pelosi, it was an electric visual: two fierce women, a controlled 78-year-old capping her career and an uncontrollable 29-year-old starting hers, joining forces to fight the 72-year-old Neanderthal in the Oval Office.

It's a good article, well worth a look: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/05/opinion/sunday/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-pelosi-congress-dance.html

Need anyone say more?

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1797 on: January 07, 2019, 06:10:29 AM »
Poor old Joe! Dumb as dirt and half as smart.




According to the progressive policy shop Data for Progress and the Kaiser Family Foundation, Medicare for All polls at 55 percent support in Indiana—and many were quick to point to this data in response to Donnelly's remarks.

---
    Tammy Baldwin (D-WI) co-sponsored Bernie Sanders #MedicareForAll bill & got re-elected in a midwestern state. Joe Donnelly (D-IN) didn’t and lost re-election.

    Baldwin also voted against #BankLobbyistAct which Donnelly voted for. Every US Sen who lost re-election voted for it.
    — Eric J (@EricJafMN) December 29, 2018

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2018/12/30/centrist-democrat-who-lost-reelection-attacks-medicare-all-progressives-respond

70% of Americans now support Medicare-for-all—here's how single-payer could affect you
28 Aug 2018
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/28/most-americans-now-support-medicare-for-all-and-free-college-tuition.html
Solving Climate Change means changing 'The System' because nothing changes when nothing changes.
Each one of us must consider our deepest values, proceed to act from this standpoint alone, ignoring other voices of illusion, false hope, and distraction that might threaten to throw us off course.

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1798 on: January 07, 2019, 06:10:34 AM »
CFPB was Warren's greatest hit, she done good there in my book. Bankers hate her. She ain't perfect on war,  but she'll do for now to force the democratic party leftward.

We probably should discuss presidential candidacies on another thread. This one is for democrats sucking on corporate teats.

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1799 on: January 07, 2019, 06:15:48 AM »
Oh I don't know. It's not difficult to understand. Even Jimmy can grasp it easy enough.

Solving Climate Change means changing 'The System' because nothing changes when nothing changes.
Each one of us must consider our deepest values, proceed to act from this standpoint alone, ignoring other voices of illusion, false hope, and distraction that might threaten to throw us off course.