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Author Topic: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out  (Read 118888 times)

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1800 on: January 11, 2019, 01:33:11 AM »
From the "can't make this up" department: markos scams donors for US$3.33/rose, gives Pelosi 25000 roses

Those boots had better taste good.

https://t.co/tzOIosnA88

sidd



sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1801 on: January 15, 2019, 07:42:09 AM »
It strikes me that while corporate democrats and corporate republicans bemoan convergence of rightists and leftists on populist rebellion, they elide convergence of corporate republicans and corporate democrats for corporate dominion.

I propose new parties: Populists and Corporates

PS: i note that Commodus, now known as the horrible, had the temerity to transpose the motto into Populus Senatusque Romanus. And he taxed the senators to pay off the populace. So he was assassinated. Mmmm ...

sidd
« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 09:01:51 AM by sidd »

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1802 on: January 15, 2019, 09:07:47 AM »
Greenwald at The Intercept:

Quote
As Democratic Elites Reunite With Neocons, the Party’s Voters Are Becoming Far More Militaristic and Pro-War Than Republicans

But what is remarkable about the new polling data on Syria is that the vast bulk of support for keeping troops there comes from Democratic Party voters, while Republicans and independents overwhelming favor their removal.

(...)

Identical trends can be seen on the question of Trump’s announced intention to withdraw half of the U.S. troops currently in Afghanistan, where Democrats are far more supportive of keeping troops there than Republicans and independents.

This case is even more stark since Obama ran in 2008 on a pledge to end the war in Afghanistan and bring all troops home. Throughout the Obama years, polling data consistently showed that huge majorities of Democrats favored a withdrawal of all troops from Afghanistan:

(...)

This is, of course, not the first time that Democratic voters have wildly shifted their “beliefs” based on the party affiliation of the person occupying the Oval Office. The party’s base spent the Bush-Cheney years denouncing war on terror policies, such as assassinations, drones, and Guantánamo as moral atrocities and war crimes, only to suddenly support those policies once they became hallmarks of the Obama presidency.

But what’s happening here is far more insidious. A core ethos of the anti-Trump #Resistance has become militarism, jingoism, and neoconservatism. Trump is frequently attacked by Democrats using longstanding Cold War scripts wielded for decades against them by the far right: Trump is insufficiently belligerent with U.S. enemies; he’s willing to allow the Bad Countries to take over by bringing home U.S. soldiers; his efforts to establish less hostile relations with adversary countries is indicative of weakness or even treason.

At the same time, Democratic policy elites in Washington are once again formally aligning with neoconservatives, even to the point of creating joint foreign policy advocacy groups (a reunion that predated Trump). The leading Democratic Party think tank, the Center for American Progress, donated $200,000 to the neoconservative American Enterprise Institute and has multilevel alliances with warmongering institutions. By far the most influential liberal media outlet, MSNBC, is stuffed full of former Bush-Cheney officials, security state operatives, and agents, while even the liberal stars are notably hawkish (a decade ago, long before she went as far down the pro-war and Cold Warrior rabbit hole that she now occupies, Rachel Maddow heralded herself as a “national security liberal” who was “all about counterterrorism”).

All of this has resulted in a new generation of Democrats, politically engaged for the first time as a result of fears over Trump, being inculcated with values of militarism and imperialism, trained to view once-discredited, war-loving neocons such as Bill Kristol, Max Boot, and David Frum, and former CIA and FBI leaders as noble experts and trusted voices of conscience. It’s inevitable that all of these trends would produce a party that is increasingly pro-war and militaristic, and polling data now leaves little doubt that this transformation — which will endure long after Trump is gone — is well under way.
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sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1803 on: January 15, 2019, 09:26:28 AM »
Re:  vast bulk of support for keeping troops there comes from Democratic Party voters

I think i posted about it on another thread. It is true, War is popular on the coasts. Much less so in the heartlands, even in those little towns with banners on the lamp posts extolling many who served and many who died in wars for empire. A lot of the population is ex-military, VA been screwing em for years but still better than teachers and coal miners.  They know their kids keep signing up for lack of hope, the jobs are gone, even the land is dying from corn soy rotation and corporate leased pig/chicken/beef concentration camp operations.

Empire is expensive. In blood and gold, certainly, but much more so in lives and hopes.

sidd

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1804 on: January 17, 2019, 12:45:14 AM »
Taibbi at rollingstone with a bit of history: of neocons and corporate dems

"Because they started this Middle East disaster on a lie and even bragged about doing so — “We’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality” — they undermined faith in a smorgasbord of American institutions, from the news media to the presidency to the intelligence community to their own party."

"longtime Democratic Party advisers are once again triangulating against their party’s own progressive wing, which was the core strategy of the original “Third Way” Democrats in the early Nineties. Party leaders now want to kick out populist, antiwar liberals in the same way Frum once wanted to excommunicate antiwar conservatives."

"Glenn Greenwald noted in the Intercept last year, the “most extreme and discredited neocons” began uniting with Democrats “long before the ascension of Donald Trump.” "

Taibbi quotes Heilbrun from 2014: “Even as they castigate Mr. Obama, the neocons may be preparing a more brazen feat: aligning themselves with Hillary Rodham Clinton and her nascent presidential campaign, in a bid to return to the driver’s seat of American foreign policy.”

Robert Kagan talked about a union with Democrats, hoping to replace the term “neoconservative” with the less-infamous-sounding “liberal interventionist.”

"The union achieved formal expression in 2016 with groups like the Alliance for Securing Democracy, which is backed by neocons like Kristol and Jamie Fly as well as former Joe Biden and Clinton campaign security adviser Jake Sullivan."

"The neocons are trying to create with Democrats a true political movement of shared goals and common adversaries. Apart from “liberal interventionism,” they’re emphasizing stridently anti-populist leanings "

"Just don’t be surprised if “liberal interventionists” are sitting in the White House once Trump leaves the scene. These are determined revolutionaries who’ve been scheming for years to throw a saddle on the Democratic Party after decades in bed with Republicans. Sadly, they have willing partners over there."

Read the whole thing:

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/bulwark-weekly-standard-778709/

sidd

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1805 on: January 17, 2019, 02:05:56 AM »
Adler at NYT: Populists are not the ones retreating from democracy, but the centrists are

a) most skeptical of democracy
b) least likely to support free anf fair elections
c) least likely to support liberal institutions
d) more supportive of authoritarians than the far left worlwide, but he finds that "In the United States, centrists’ support for a strongman-type leader far surpasses that of the right and the left."

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/05/23/opinion/international-world/centrists-democracy.html

I remarked elsewhere that corporate dems and corporate repubs were allying. That's because they are more like each other.

sidd



b_lumenkraft

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1806 on: January 17, 2019, 06:43:21 AM »

I remarked elsewhere that corporate dems and corporate repubs were allying. That's because they are more like each other.

sidd

Hey Sidd,

as an American politics nerd from Germany, watching the whole thing from the outside, comparing to the European political landscape, i couldn't agree more.

Here in Europe, you have a vivid landscape of parties on the whole political spectrum. In the US there are two corporate parties. One is right wing, the other far right.

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1807 on: January 17, 2019, 09:37:47 AM »
Re:  "In the US there are two corporate parties. One is right wing, the other far right."

Yes. A phrase on this side of the pond is "two wings of the same bird of prey."

sidd

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1808 on: January 18, 2019, 07:29:58 AM »
Bruce Dixon at blackagendareport picks up on something interesting on HR1, first democrat proposed bill for the house:

"The second piece of HR 1 which has a chance of gaining the bipartisan support it would need to become law, if Democrats want it badly enough, is aimed squarely at keeping the Green Party off the ballot in as many states as possible, and crippling the Green Party’s presidential campaign. This part of HR 1 quintuples amount Green presidential campaigns are required to raise to qualify for federal matching funds from $5,000 in each of 20 states by the last day of 2019, to $25,000 per state in 20 states"

Cut the legs off under any possible third party challenge. I can see the republican center supporting this. They got their tea party splinters to worry about.

Read the whole thing:

https://blackagendareport.com/house-democrats-hr-1-faking-funk-voting-rights-spreading-fear-and-gunning-greens-2020

sidd


Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1809 on: January 18, 2019, 10:12:02 AM »
<snip, none of this inane Dr Strangelove-type propaganda, thanks; N.>
« Last Edit: January 18, 2019, 10:17:00 AM by Neven »
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1810 on: January 18, 2019, 10:28:20 AM »
<snip, none of this inane Dr Strangelove-type propaganda, thanks; N.>

OK. Let me take it one step at a time then :

$25,000 per state is about 1 ct per person.
That's not a very high bar to cross if you want to start a third party.
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1811 on: January 18, 2019, 10:31:37 AM »
<snip, none of this inane Dr Strangelove-type propaganda, thanks; N.>
« Last Edit: January 18, 2019, 10:45:45 AM by Neven »
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1812 on: January 18, 2019, 10:34:05 AM »
<snip, none of this inane Dr Strangelove-type propaganda, thanks; N.>

« Last Edit: January 18, 2019, 10:46:01 AM by Neven »
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Susan Anderson

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1813 on: January 19, 2019, 06:31:18 AM »
Perhaps some of you might become better acquainted and employ less prejudiced hearsay:

Quote
But if anyone has the chops to manage Mr. Trump’s brattiness, it is Ms. Pelosi ... [who] is not unfamiliar with his type, having risen to political prominence in a field full of arrogant, entitled, patronizing men.

Along the way, she has been repeatedly underestimated. In 1985, having reached the top of the California Democratic Party, she campaigned, unsuccessfully, to head the national party. As Ms. Pelosi tells it, one union organizer dismissed her as “an airhead.” Other players told her that Democrats wouldn’t risk elevating a woman to such a high-profile post on the heels of Walter Mondale’s 1984 presidential loss with Geraldine Ferraro as his running mate. Ms. Pelosi never forgot those slights.

Upon arriving in Congress in 1987, she had to carve out a space in what was then still an old white boys’ club. She succeeded through a combination of sweat, savvy and sheer will. She learned how Congress works, both as an institution and as a collection of egos. As she showed in quashing a challenge to her leadership after the midterm elections, she knows how to find people’s pressure points.

She also knows how to handle pressure. As House minority leader, she helped derail President George W. Bush’s efforts to privatize Social Security by ignoring the conventional wisdom that Democrats needed to offer an alternative plan. Resisting criticism from both the White House and her own conference, Ms. Pelosi focused on taking down Mr. Bush’s plan.

This time around, Ms. Pelosi is aiming not merely to rein in the out-of-control president but, in the process, to deflate his cherished image as a Master of the Universe. She has mocked Mr. Trump’s obsession with what she terms his “manhood” and gone all in with the grandmother-wrangling-an-unruly-child shtick. What he paints as strong leadership and standing his ground, she dismisses as a temper tantrum. Rather than outrage or disbelief, Ms. Pelosi’s most common response to Mr. Trump amounts to one long, exasperated eye roll.

…. few politicians are as well equipped to weather a political storm. Ms. Pelosi has been a polarizing figure for longer than most members have been in Congress. For years, Republicans have been using her as a boogeyman, painting pretty much every Democratic candidate nationwide as a tool of her and her radical San Francisco agenda. As a result, her public appeal is much like that of the Senate majority leader, Mitch McConnell, slightly above a root canal. But while Pelosi-bashing has its charms — Republican voters do love hating on the speaker — as the midterms showed, it also has its limits.

For her part, Ms. Pelosi is not overly concerned with personal popularity.
….
The big question is whether she can avoid getting pulled down into the muck right along with him.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/opinion/pelosi-trump-shutdown.html

Susan Anderson

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1814 on: January 19, 2019, 06:39:18 AM »
By the way, though I try to steer clear and only post third-party info that might provide much absent and needed information, the prejudice and distortion in the permitted clique above is staggering. I get it, you all believe the same thing, and others need not intrude. However ...

Greenwald is now living in a very expensive area, safe in disintegrating and dangerous Brazil, now being run by Bolsonaro who is happy to tame the Amazon rainforest for profit, since it serves a secondary purpose of genociding the indigenous populations who are in the way of his friends' profits.

imnsho, Greenwald has lost his way. I was a fan in the Snowden days, but he's got too much hate, as usual, for decent people, and too much tolerance for leadership that exploits hatred and victim blaming. I was a bit intrigued by this, which seemed to indicate he might be trying to open his mind: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/09/03/glenn-greenwald-the-bane-of-their-resistance

Quote
Sandgren had tweeted, retweeted, or “liked” disparaging remarks about Muslims and gays; he had highlighted an article suggesting that recent migration into Europe could be described as “Operation European Population Replacement”; he had called Marx’s ideas worse than Hitler’s. He had also promoted the Pizzagate conspiracy theory, which accuses Hillary Clinton of human trafficking. Sandgren told reporters that, though he didn’t support the alt-right, he did find “some of the content interesting.”

This became a small news story. Sandgren then lost his quarter-final, and, at the subsequent press conference, he read a statement condemning the media’s willingness to “turn neighbor against neighbor.” Later that day, he was surprised to receive a supportive message from Glenn Greenwald, the journalist, whom he followed on Twitter. (Sandgren also followed Roger Federer, Peter Thiel, and Paul Joseph Watson, of Infowars.)

Infowars is Alex Jones, by the way.

Lurk

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1815 on: January 19, 2019, 08:05:48 AM »
I didn't know AOC had 2 million followers on Twitter. Probably because I don't use twitter I never noticed. Pretty good for a nobody newcomer to Congress. :)

I'm not sure why but I really do get off on blatant hypocrisy. Such as here by Democratic House Rep. Emanuel Cleaver ... who while jumping all over AOC in another "attack" and he can't seem to help himself from "sniping" at her repeatedly is quoted saying:

"I'm sure Miss Cortez means well but there's almost an outstanding Rule: 'Don't attack your own people'" said represent representative Emanuel Cleaver a Democrat from Missouri we just don't need sniping in our Democratic caucus."


Gosh so when is Emanuel Cleaver going to stop doing that himself and allowing such comments to go mainstream Public all over the media and social media circles?

What a F****** Dufus! What a Hypocrite! Top shelf mind that guy has ... NOT! :)

But I am sure "he means well" ROFL My God, everyone "means well" strewth aka Doh!

Jimmy Dore and the Miserable Liberal discuss a recent Politico article - it's quite funny and sad all at the same time.

"You assist an unjust administration most effectively by obeying its orders and decrees. [...] A good person will resist an evil system with his whole soul. Disobedience of the laws of an evil state is therefore a duty."
Mahatma Gandhi - Non-Violent Resistance

Lurk

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1816 on: January 19, 2019, 08:41:12 AM »
FYI - A concern troll visits sites of an opposing ideology and offers advice on how they could "improve" things, either in their tactical use of rhetoric, site rules, or with more philosophical consistency. The "improvements" are almost exclusively intended to be less effective.

Perhaps one of the best descriptions of the concern troll even before any proper nomenclature was by Martin Luther King in, "Letter from a Birmingham Jail."

    First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.”

Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."


from https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Concern_troll



"You assist an unjust administration most effectively by obeying its orders and decrees. [...] A good person will resist an evil system with his whole soul. Disobedience of the laws of an evil state is therefore a duty."
Mahatma Gandhi - Non-Violent Resistance

Lurk

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1817 on: January 23, 2019, 06:04:45 AM »
I believe that by the time Hillary sticks herself into the 2020 election and Xmas 2019 comes around the Democrat Party will pretty much at all out war with itself. But we'll see. Just a hunch.

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." Ghandi










An older classic from dearly departed Christopher Hintchens

   "As for Mrs. Clinton look after all she's done for us and all she suffered on our behalf she feels she's owed the presidency.

    And you know, who could possibly disagree. Her life is meaningless if she doesn't get at least a shot and we can, one can only sympathize unless you think as I do that people should be distrusted who are running for therapeutic reasons.

   Because the Presidency doesn't calm those demons as her husband has already proved.

   But look the reason why we have to think about it, the reason why your question is a good one is this: What else can the Democrats do? And if that's the case what the hell shape are we in?"


"You assist an unjust administration most effectively by obeying its orders and decrees. [...] A good person will resist an evil system with his whole soul. Disobedience of the laws of an evil state is therefore a duty."
Mahatma Gandhi - Non-Violent Resistance

Lurk

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1818 on: January 24, 2019, 08:05:42 AM »
Personally I am all for Decency!

"You assist an unjust administration most effectively by obeying its orders and decrees. [...] A good person will resist an evil system with his whole soul. Disobedience of the laws of an evil state is therefore a duty."
Mahatma Gandhi - Non-Violent Resistance

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1819 on: January 26, 2019, 09:43:21 PM »
Daily Kos comes out against Gabbard: apparently she's a "pro-dictator democrat" but worse, she supports the wrong dictators ...

https://twitter.com/mtracey/status/1088975262908338176

sidd

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1820 on: January 26, 2019, 11:18:37 PM »
Well, if you're not in favour of Venezuela regime change, like good Corporate Democrats are ('blah blah, democracy, blah, freedom'), you get the McCarthy-treatment:



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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1821 on: January 26, 2019, 11:37:15 PM »
And fortunately, the Corporate Democrats and their consultant buddies and mainstream media cronies get plenty of help from the intelligence services to keep the anti-war left out of positions of power:

Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1822 on: January 27, 2019, 06:37:03 AM »
Ro Khanna Slams Politicians Supporting Coup In Venezuela

Link >>

Lurk

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1823 on: January 28, 2019, 04:11:21 AM »
Don't blame Trump personally for cancelling on Paris. He's merely the latest front man for a day.

Obama was no better nor was Bill Clinton or Al Gore when in Office. Obama sure 'talked the talk' but he never 'walked the walk.' His grand plan for Climate Change Reform was delivered in December 2016 after Trump had won the election. 8 years to achieve nothing lasting. The US was not instrumental in arriving at the Paris Agreement either. Here's what Obama was most proud of and he demands a Thank You from Wall Street and Oil/Gas producers in Texas 5 Star Function with James Baker:

"Obama: That was me people! ...like you know sometimes you go to Wall Street and folks will be grumbling about I'm anti-business. I said: Have you checked where your stocks were when I came in office where they are now? What what are you talking about, what are you complaining about? Just say thank you, please."



President Barack Obama is directing his administration to ramp up U.S. oil production by extending existing leases in the Gulf of Mexico and off Alaska's coast and holding more frequent lease sales in a federal petroleum reserve in Alaska. (May 14, 2011)



This guy is shameless. But you gotta love him for it?

My point? Beware manipulative 'distractions', blatant Sophistry, and especially False Prophets whose real job is to maximize Real Profits for the few on the backs of the many and the Biosphere we all need to live.

Back in 2008 Obama the Democratic Party President promised Hope and Change and instead delivered ISIS globally, the Arab Spring, more dead Palestinians and more Settlements, a record debt, a fascist coup in Ukraine, ongoing support for undemocratic kingdoms in the middle east, Saudis bombing death and destruction in Yemen, +1000 military sites, 2,300,000 in prisons, and #BlackLivesMatter as a bonus, Murder by Drone, a reinvigorated Taliban in Afghanistan, and in the US a nation fighting against themselves endlessly.

Plus Obama delivered the endless lies about Syria and Iraq, and the closest the world has been to nuclear war since 1962. The US should have given him via Hillary Clinton another 4 years to finish the job properly? Instead you got Donald Trump. Is he really that much worse than the alternative? Or merely more of the same with an edge to his social media hype and shit-stirring ways.

Of course the biggest issue is that the United States of America is not a functional Democracy.

It is a root and branch Corporatocracy where Democratic President Bill Clinton signed the Bill to repeal 66 years old Glass-Steagall Law in November 1999 which led directly to the August 2008 GFC meltdown and the same thing is happening all over again.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bruce-e-levine/the-myth-of-us-democracy-corporatocracy_b_836573.html

Never let the facts get in the way of a good lie.

Jan 2016 Bernie Sanders to Hillary Clinton “I don’t take money from big banks….You’ve received over $600,000 in speaking fees from Goldman Sachs in one year.”

There are the direct payments to Democratic Party Presidential hopeful Sec. Hillary Clinton’s political campaigns, including for the Senate in 2000 and for the presidency in 2008 and now in 2016, which had reached a total of $712.4 million as of September 30, 2015, the most recent figures compiled by Open Secrets.

Four of the top five sources of these funds are major banks: Citigroup Inc, Goldman Sachs, JPMorgan Chase & Co, and Morgan Stanley.

The Clinton campaign meanwhile has set a goal of raising $1 billion for her Super PAC for the 2016 election.
http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2016/01/30/clinton-system-donor-machine-2016-election/

How to kick them out? Show up at the 2020 Primaries to Vote out Democrats like Corporatist Rep. Joe Crowley and Vote in Justice Democrats like AOC, Tulsi Gabbard, Bernie Sanders and Co. That's how. Get mad, get serious, get moving and get smart. Do not send a penny to people like Crowley, Hillary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer, that's how.

Or else you will end up with more of this in the States:

In the previous 10 to 15 years before Democratic Party Barack Obama won the Presidency of which Bill Clinton was President for 7 of them and the Democrats had a double majority in the Congress for 4 of them; his going away present to Goldman Sachs et al was the repeal of Glass-Steagall in toto! Now that's what facts actually look like. There is no difference between Democrats and Republicans in essence - that is a false dichotomy.

Both Bill and Hillary were labeling African Americans and Hispanics "super-predators" when in office and they pushed through the legislation for "3 strikes you're out" as well as the federal funding the militariziation of the Police across the USA as well as the expansion of private prisons - as did the Republicans - which today gives us #blacklivesmatter.

That Legislation was written by ALEC https://www.alec.org/ .... Through ALEC, Global Corporations Are Scheming to Rewrite YOUR Rights and Boost THEIR Revenue
http://www.alecexposed.org/wiki/ALEC_Exposed
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/American_Legislative_Exchange_Council

Don't kid yourself
. Nothings going to change in the USA until the people take to the streets in the millions and start Voting with their heads and their hearts and their "smarts."
"You assist an unjust administration most effectively by obeying its orders and decrees. [...] A good person will resist an evil system with his whole soul. Disobedience of the laws of an evil state is therefore a duty."
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Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1824 on: January 29, 2019, 09:52:59 AM »
Don't blame Trump personally for cancelling on Paris. He's merely the latest front man for a day.

Obama was no better nor was Bill Clinton or Al Gore when in Office. Obama sure 'talked the talk' but he never 'walked the walk.'

<snip, no McCarthyism, thanks; N.>

While Trump is only known for destroying everything that Obama did,
Obama has done more against AGW than ANY other president in history.

https://insideclimatenews.org/news/23122016/obama-climate-change-legacy-trump-policies

Regardless of "talk the talk", here are some examples of when Obama actually "walked the walk" :

For example, the rejection of the Keystone XL pipeline alone put the brakes on Canadian Tar Sand development, which James Hansen rightfully declared "Game Over for the Climate" since Tar Sands are so vast and so carbon heavy they would bring the Earth's climate back to the early Eocene all by themselves if all were extracted from the Alberta grounds.

But there is much more. For example :

Quote
Obama's EPA moved on in his second term to tackling truck emissions, reining in methane leaks from the oil and gas industry and updating energy efficiency standards for home appliances.

and

Quote
The U.S. delegation also led the effort to amend an international agreement to reduce the highly potent greenhouse gases used in refrigeration, hydrofluorocarbons. That one agreement will negate the equivalent of 10 years of U.S. emissions.

and then the Clean Power Plan, which pretty much killed off any more new coal plants :

Quote
The largest target is his signature initiative, the Clean Power Plan, which the U.S. Supreme Court stayed in February until the legal challenges are resolved. The plan was designed to cut carbon pollution from power plants 30 percent from 2005 levels, similar to the cuts that would have been imposed by the failed Waxman-Markey bill. Despite widespread opposition to the plan, most states are on track to meet their obligations under it, at least three recent studies have shown.

and

Quote
Obama's legacy as an international leader on climate is more secure. The China-U.S. deal on carbon emissions that Obama and President Xi Jinping announced in November 2014 will stand as an even more important moment than the Paris agreement, some say. "For two countries that together account for 40 percent of the world's energy use and carbon emissions to go from laggards to leaders is really extraordinary," said Kammen, an international science envoy for the State Department. "And Paris would not have happened without the China agreement."

And I'm not even talking about the Paris Climate Accord, which Obama pushed real hard :

Quote
That momentum carried the U.S. into the climate negotiations in Paris in December 2015, when the countries of the world sealed the first climate pact requiring emissions-cutting commitments from every nation that has signed it. Now ratified by 118 of the 194 countries that signed, representing 80 percent of emissions, it is on track to become one of the most widely accepted treaties in the world.

The facts speak clearly : Obama's legacy on carbon emission reduction is UNPRECEDENTED in the history of US presidents. No other president did as much against Climate Change as Obama did.

Could he have done more ? Absolutely.
But can you name a President who did more than he did against Climate Change ?
I challenge you.

While Trump is only known for destroying everything good that Obama did.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2019, 11:56:02 AM by Neven »
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Lurk

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1825 on: January 29, 2019, 03:10:25 PM »
Obama has done more against AGW than ANY other president in history.

So he's not taking credit for the Oil boom then or the wealth generated on the stock markets? Must have been fake news. But considering the competition, GHW Bush, Bill Clinton, GW Bush, yeah you could say that. A pretty low bar. He also actively fought the Court case Our Children's Trust to the hilt that's how concerned he was about getting serious action happening in the US.

His permanent legacy is what exactly? Given anything he did or signed or said has been undone. Compare Obama's Climate action legacy to Johnson's Civil Rights Act which has never been repealed. Obama doesn't have a legacy. Only new over-paid speaking engagements with wealthy corporatists. He's doing nothing for climate chnage action today - nothing - not a single thing! 

What is there to defend except a kind of mystical belief and aura that he actually achieved something sustainable when he didn't. He'll always be a war criminal President too. Like his "new mates" were.

The core reason why GHG emissions went down for a period during Obama's term was because of the GFC. That's it. Any other 'reduction' is marginal at best and irrelevant it's so insignificant. That's how I see it.
"You assist an unjust administration most effectively by obeying its orders and decrees. [...] A good person will resist an evil system with his whole soul. Disobedience of the laws of an evil state is therefore a duty."
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Lurk

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1826 on: January 30, 2019, 01:53:49 AM »
Obama has done more against AGW than ANY other president in history.

So he's not taking credit for the Oil boom then or the wealth generated on the stock markets? Must have been fake news. But considering the competition, GHW Bush, Bill Clinton, GW Bush, yeah you could say that. A pretty low bar. He also actively fought the Court case Our Children's Trust to the hilt that's how concerned he was about getting serious action happening in the US.

His permanent legacy is what exactly? Given anything he did or signed or said has been undone. Compare Obama's Climate action legacy to Johnson's Civil Rights Act which has never been repealed. Obama doesn't have a legacy. Only new over-paid speaking engagements with wealthy corporatists. He's doing nothing for climate chnage action today - nothing - not a single thing! 

What is there to defend except a kind of mystical belief and aura that he actually achieved something sustainable when he didn't. He'll always be a war criminal President too. Like his "new mates" were.

The core reason why GHG emissions went down for a period during Obama's term was because of the GFC. That's it. Any other 'reduction' is marginal at best and irrelevant it's so insignificant. That's how I see it.

The way I see it, if there was a time ripe for change in the USA it was in 2009 to roll out a New Green Deal - to actually a large portion of that TARP money to develop new industries and redevelop the heartland of manufacturing that had been so devastated the prior 20 years and all but destroyed in the GFC lunacy.

But no, the New Green Deal is merely a "hope for change" held by a small minority group of elected Democrats and their visionary supporters now in 2019. A decade later. But Obama was in a prime postion in 2009 to be not only a visionary for hope and change but to actually act on that and drive economic reform across the nation.

But no, because he was ill-prepared to be a decent Democratic President like say Roosevelt, Kennedy or Johnson (not that they were necessarily the bees knees in all respects either.)

The problem was "I am a really nice guy" and "Let's sit down and talk about it - you'll see the logic in my ideas and will agree with me" is NOT a rational political strategy for success in the USA given the TPTB aligned against such enlightened reforms needed to truly address GHG and climate change.

So Obama et al gave Billion$ to GM say when they could have given them some, taken a partial Nationalization stake that could have been repaid by selling that "nationalized" stake on the open market 4-10 years later and instead seriously tackled the fundamental Systemic barriers to alt-renewable energy and greening of the country possibly turning places like Flint Michigan into a New Green Deal Hub.

But he was not up to the task and neither were the rest of the Democrats or the Republican power bases. My point is NOT that it's all Obama's fault, or he's a Bad bad guy --- my point is that he didn't even realize he could have tried something like this. He was very ill-prepared as President and he really didn't have a clue what he stood for and what he wanted to achieve or how to go about it.

Why praise someone for doing basically NOTHING as if he did when he didn't? How does that drive change and reform or bring in to reality a NEW GREEN DEAL today? Go look who Obama is talking to in 2018/2016 .... CORPORATE-MEDIA SHILLS and the Mega-Wealthy and charging them Million$ for it. Is he speaking about AGW/CC urgency and strategies to address it? No, he is not!

That's the "true colours"[/i] of the man right there. Forget him and move on is what I suggest but remember enough of the IMAGE CULT-ivation to not make the same mistake again in the Ballot Box and in the Primaries next time.

By 2012 he had lost the Democrat Majority in Congress instead of building on it by appealing to that sector of society that would end up Voting for Donald Trump in 2016. Clueless imho. Clueless and incompetent or he always was a FAKE candidate, I don't know.

Obama both Lacked Vision and basic Logic if he ever saw himself as an Agent of Positive Change for the USA and the battle against Global warming.  Why people would now be looking at his time in Office as "the good old days" or a period of "great environmental successes" defies belief and the facts. imo at least.

Better than Trump? Well sure. But if that's your "yardstick" you may as well be comparing Obama to windup monkey toy clapping little cymbals and saying he did so much better. Because when it comes to long term positive actions to drive action against Climate Change the USA is the Laggard of the more enlightened global community - from Europe to India to China.

As I pointed out it took him his entire 8 years to \produce his action plan to tackle Climate Change .... Here read the date of publication and the announcement from his office AFTER Trump had won the 2016 election.

CORRECTION - Blast, now I cannot find that Report/Plan and can now also see I've a muddled memory on this because he did produce several others during his term. Anyway, there was a Climate Action Report completed in Dec 2016 by the Obama White House. Sorry I cannot find it now - I thought I had saved it, downloaded it too but can't even find on my pc either.

Here fwiw is his 2013 Climate Action PLan fwiw, all water under the bridge I suppose.  https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/sites/default/files/image/president27sclimateactionplan.pdf

and here is a summary of Obama's Admin "achievements" regarding that plan in mid-2016
https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/blog/2016/06/28/third-anniversary-climate-action-plan

and other appraisal
https://insideclimatenews.org/news/23122016/obama-climate-change-legacy-trump-policies

SCOTUS impacts
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/04/us/politics/supreme-court-chief-justice-john-roberts-epa-coal.html

LEGACY Issues
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/aug/20/trump-coal-emissions-power-plants-rules-obama
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-to-rescind-obama-era-coal-emissions-standards/
« Last Edit: January 30, 2019, 03:17:45 AM by Lurk »
"You assist an unjust administration most effectively by obeying its orders and decrees. [...] A good person will resist an evil system with his whole soul. Disobedience of the laws of an evil state is therefore a duty."
Mahatma Gandhi - Non-Violent Resistance

TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1827 on: January 30, 2019, 07:53:23 PM »
Has everyone forgotten the long lasting impact that Jimmy Carter had WRT Climate Change?
Reagan could tear Jimmy's solar system off the White House roof, but he couldn't pluck the insulation from the attics of millions of home owners.


I feared an overtly Christian president at the time, and his foreign policy was negatively influenced by Brzezinski, but he was the best environmental president of my lifetime.
Terry

Lurk

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1828 on: January 31, 2019, 02:15:50 AM »

CORRECTION - Blast, now I cannot find that Report/Plan and can now also see I've a muddled memory on this because he did produce several others during his term. Anyway, there was a Climate Action Report completed in Dec 2016 by the Obama White House. Sorry I cannot find it now - I thought I had saved it, downloaded it too but can't even find on my pc either.

Here fwiw is his 2013 Climate Action PLan fwiw, all water under the bridge I suppose.  https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/sites/default/files/image/president27sclimateactionplan.pdf


Reflecting on that, I don't know for certain anymore. Could I have misread the Dec. 2013 report as 2016 in my haste? Yes. I don't usually make such mistakes, but I am not perfect either because sometimes I do. Thankfully most of the time I find such errors myself as I do pay attention to what I am doing sourcing and posting and lean toward double checking even long after again. 

I have posted the "link" to what I thought was the 2016 report here and elsewhere but no one picked it up and told me it was wrong last year.  So I am at a loss.
"You assist an unjust administration most effectively by obeying its orders and decrees. [...] A good person will resist an evil system with his whole soul. Disobedience of the laws of an evil state is therefore a duty."
Mahatma Gandhi - Non-Violent Resistance

Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1829 on: February 02, 2019, 04:23:38 AM »
That is your claim. Mine, and that of several others such as Hudson and Black is  is that the 4TUS$ was to save the banks, not the economy, and that the claim above is propaganda from the oligarchs.
I lost an excellent job back then and an excellent firm collapsed because the bank didn't want to lend money - for something that would have been routine and the 2nd rank bankers assured was absolutely no problem. So my boss ran to the airport and signed a huge contract (with a very business-serious rich country who didn't want to deal with big Siemens, for that would risk their high rank in the anti-corruption index). When he came back the upper bankers had intervened and refused to lend the 70million€ we needed to manufacture stuff and hire workers for the project. So he had to file bankruptcy. (Ultimately his fault, of course, for he just couldn't wait to sign the contract.)

That was in Germany. Hypo Bank. A first tremor of the global financial crisis.

That's how insolvent banks ruin the economy. They serve the grease that keep the smaller wheels turning.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2019, 05:24:25 AM by Martin Gisser »

Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1830 on: February 02, 2019, 04:52:21 AM »
imnsho, Greenwald has lost his way. I was a fan in the Snowden days, but he's got too much hate, as usual, for decent people, and too much tolerance for leadership that exploits hatred and victim blaming. I was a bit intrigued by this, which seemed to indicate he might be trying to open his mind: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/09/03/glenn-greenwald-the-bane-of-their-resistance
Same here. I've written him off in 2016 and put him in the same box as Jimmy Dore. Not much will for objective analysis. Too much bile and visceral thinking and vain self-righteousness. An axe grinder.

The New Yorker article confirms my impression:
Quote
Greenwald noted that some gay teens respond to persecution by assimilating, or by escaping into the arts. He then said, “My strategy was: you have waged war on me, and now I’m going to wage war back on you. I had to hide who I was, because it was shameful and wrong. And I wanted to make them feel the same way—‘No, you’re shameful and wrong.’ ” This force, he said, had propelled his success on debate teams in high school and in college
(My emph. That debate-team attitude in polit discourse pissed me off last century. I only care now because politics is a relevant element of the biogeosphere meanwhile.)
« Last Edit: February 02, 2019, 05:17:24 AM by Martin Gisser »

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1831 on: February 05, 2019, 01:36:24 AM »
Crooked union bosses and the Philly democratic machine: kingmaker indicted for embezzlement

"The bombshell charges announced Wednesday against building trades leader John "Johnny Doc" Dougherty — a Philadelphia labor kingpin whose union is the single biggest independent source of campaign funding in the state — threaten to sap statehouse and congressional Democrats of a mega-donor, slow the party’s momentum in the Philadelphia suburbs, and sideline the man who orchestrated the Democratic takeover of the Pennsylvania Supreme Court. "

"Dougherty was charged with embezzlement, bribery, and theft in a 116-count indictment that alleged he and others stole more than $600,000 in union funds and repeatedly strong-armed public and private officials with the subtlety of a sledgehammer."

“I think this puts Pennsylvania more in play for Trump,” he said, adding that without Dougherty, “the power structure of the Democratic Party goes totally to the left.”

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/01/31/pennsylvania-democrats-indictment-union-political-boss-1138312

sidd



sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1832 on: February 05, 2019, 07:24:02 PM »
Ryan Grim at the intercept describes how the shit sandwich is made: Pelosi puts the shiv into single payer

"Less than a month after Democrats ...  won back control of the House of Representatives ... the top health policy aide to then-prospective House Speaker Nancy Pelosi met with Blue Cross Blue Shield executives and assured them that party leadership had strong reservations about single-payer health care ..."

" “Lower your health care costs and prescription drug prices.” ... The “your” refers to insurers ..."

https://theintercept.com/2019/02/05/nancy-pelosi-medicare-for-all/

sidd

Lurk

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1833 on: February 06, 2019, 07:25:14 AM »
Found this via RCP

‘There Is Going to Be a War Within the Party. We Are Going to Lean Into It.’

The Justice Democrats helped get Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez elected. Who are they after next?

By DAVID FREEDLANDER

February 04, 2019

“I came to realize Democrats are never going to learn,” he said, “and that the only way to make a difference is to defeat the corrupt corporate Democrats. They get paid to lose. The corporate donor pays them to be weak, and pays Republicans to be strong.”

[..]
A typical “big donor” to the group is Arden Buck, an 84-year-old retired research engineer in Colorado who gave $10,000 after receiving a windfall insurance payout. I found him through public fundraising records; when I asked him how he found about Justice Democrats, he said he saw them mentioned on MSNBC and that he was driven by concern about greenhouse gases and wanted to give money to groups that could use it the most. “I am focused on climate change. If we don’t take care of the environment, social justice is beside the point,” he told me.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/02/04/the-insurgents-behind-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-224542
"You assist an unjust administration most effectively by obeying its orders and decrees. [...] A good person will resist an evil system with his whole soul. Disobedience of the laws of an evil state is therefore a duty."
Mahatma Gandhi - Non-Violent Resistance

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1834 on: February 07, 2019, 10:27:32 AM »
While the boss is busy fueling the political wrestle match with Trump, the aides assure the donors that nothing will change (and millions of Americans don't have cheap access to medical care):

Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1835 on: February 07, 2019, 07:37:46 PM »
Boom!


Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1836 on: February 07, 2019, 08:42:40 PM »
This guy is still learning to be a YouTube political commentator, but that video clip of Hillary Clinton... There's only one word for it: psychopath.

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b_lumenkraft

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1837 on: February 08, 2019, 08:08:43 AM »
The Millennial Era of Climate Politics Has Arrived

Quote
When asked whether she [AOC] was offended that Nancy Pelosi had, a day earlier, referred to the new plan as “the green dream, or whatever they call it,” Ocasio-Cortez just smiled. “No, I think it is a green dream,” she replied. She added that the original New Deal had seemed pretty dreamy itself.
Link >> https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/02/aocgreen-new-deal-new-era-millennial-climate-politics/582295/?utm_source=feed

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1838 on: February 08, 2019, 10:48:09 AM »
Quote
Nancy Pelosi had, a day earlier, referred to the new plan as “the green dream, or whatever they call it

Did she really? How surprising.
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b_lumenkraft

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1839 on: February 08, 2019, 11:31:40 AM »
"...or whatever they call it..."

As if she didn't know what it's called. What a cheap and obvious smear attempt. This is exactly what she is told to say.

AOC and the Justice Democrats for that matter are wrong in one thing: You can't reform the Dems from the inside...

Lurk

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1840 on: February 09, 2019, 05:09:19 AM »
You can't reform the Dems from the inside...

No but right now Justice Democrats et al can certainly bend the needle a lot and create enough havoc inside it to at least wake up more of the population to reality. The Media cannot ignore a Democrat Party that's in the middle of an Ideological Civil War over the present System.

Michael Moore, who is not the dumbest person in the room, throws up a few choice gems on MSNBC. I hope the shareholders didn't have a heart attack (well actually ... mmmm) :)

"Alexandria Ocasio-Cortes is the leader. She is the leader everybody knows that, everybody feels that. She's the leader of this mass movement. That is not, I'm not talking about a movement in terms of an organization, I'm talking about a Fox Fox News poll this week where it said 70% of the American public agree with her on having the top marginal tax rate @ 70% for the rich."

Pick it up at 1:13 mins ..........................................
« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 05:19:25 AM by Lurk »
"You assist an unjust administration most effectively by obeying its orders and decrees. [...] A good person will resist an evil system with his whole soul. Disobedience of the laws of an evil state is therefore a duty."
Mahatma Gandhi - Non-Violent Resistance

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1841 on: February 09, 2019, 07:06:26 AM »
And another candidate watering down on Medicare for all.

Booker, you are out!


Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1842 on: February 09, 2019, 06:02:39 PM »
"...or whatever they call it..."

As if she didn't know what it's called. What a cheap and obvious smear attempt. This is exactly what she is told to say.

AOC and the Justice Democrats for that matter are wrong in one thing: You can't reform the Dems from the inside...

Maybe you missed the first reform step they did on superdelegates. Or maybe you saw too much pro-GOP "progressive Dem" BS.

Pelosi and AOC do work together. Here's a recent long interview with AOC from evil MSM. "Green dream" non-thing at ca. 14:25
« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 06:11:21 PM by Martin Gisser »

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1843 on: February 09, 2019, 06:23:00 PM »
Pelosi and AOC do work together.

Hey Martin,

they do! I know that.

Does that mean the Democratic Party is in line? Do every candidate follow the same political goal? Of course not!

It all comes down to the issues for me. I don't really care about the person.

When you want an issue to be addressed you go with the candidate that is consistent! Take Sanders, he is preaching the same gospel for how long now? 30 Years? I know he would not betray his ideology.

Now to Pelosi: When she is playing this "green dream" theatre, this is a) a way to distance herself from the issue and b) to please the donors. I don't trust such people!

AOC brilliantly replied to Pelosi that 'yeah, it's a dream, and the New Deal was a dream once too".

Quote
Or maybe you saw too much pro-GOP "progressive" BS.

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean Martin. Please elaborate.

Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1844 on: February 09, 2019, 07:09:46 PM »
Now to Pelosi: When she is playing this "green dream" theatre, this is a) a way to distance herself from the issue and b) to please the donors. I don't trust such people!
Or c) needs to please the more conservative (stupid masochist) voters in flyover America. Because Pelosi wants to get things done. And she can get things done (e.g. Affordable Care Act). That requires compromise with yesterday folk, not just the donors. So, I am as happy with Pelosi as I am delighted by AOC: One is the vanguard, the other is the cavalry.

Quote
Quote
Or maybe you saw too much pro-GOP "progressive" BS.

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean Martin. Please elaborate.
Just look at the polit threads here: Evil Pelosi! Dems as corrupt as GOP! Etc. etc.
I won't say more, don't want to piss off Neven again.

« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 07:26:39 PM by Martin Gisser »

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1845 on: February 09, 2019, 07:35:02 PM »
(If you feel uncomfortable to discuss it here, feel free to PM me.)

I agree Pelosi can get things done. But she does not want the things done that i want to have done. Like the green new deal in this case, so i can't support her.

Btw, politically i'm (way more) more on the left then even AOC, so no, this is not about GOP talking points.

Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1846 on: February 09, 2019, 10:37:12 PM »
Quoth Joe Romm:

>> Ocasio-Cortez’s Green New Deal reflects 2016 Democratic Platform, but is much stronger
(...)
So, the Green New Deal is a logical outgrowth of the 2016 Democratic Platform — with ever-growing momentum. The fact that it calls for a faster transition to clean energy is also logical given that climate science has gotten even more urgent since 2016 — and that we now have a president who has been pushing emissions in the wrong direction. <<

https://thinkprogress.org/ocasio-cortezs-green-new-deal-echoes-2016-democratic-platform-but-much-stronger-1b370856b8df/

-----------------
To be explicit about my above remark: I consider Jimmy Dore, Russia Today, etc. and half the commentariat in the polit threads here as effectively pro-GOP. Because the effect is what counts for me. The strategy 2016 was to piss off Dem leaning voters to stay home.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 10:52:05 PM by Martin Gisser »

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1847 on: February 10, 2019, 05:07:10 AM »
Well, as i remember the 2016 events, i saw a very popular candidate Sanders who, without any doubt in my mind, would have become president if it wasn't for corruption and undemocratic intrigues inside the Democratic party.

However, i reject the notion of being 'pro-GOP'. Not one single right-wing argument was made.

We can disagree on politics or strategy but comparing someone on the radical left to a GOP minion will not bring us forward in discussions.

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1848 on: February 10, 2019, 05:08:51 AM »

Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1849 on: February 10, 2019, 06:18:18 AM »
Well, as i remember the 2016 events, i saw a very popular candidate Sanders who, without any doubt in my mind, would have become president if it wasn't for corruption and undemocratic intrigues inside the Democratic party.

However, i reject the notion of being 'pro-GOP'. Not one single right-wing argument was made.

We can disagree on politics or strategy but comparing someone on the radical left to a GOP minion will not bring us forward in discussions.
Sorry, that is effectively pro-GOP propaganda. Sanders was not popular enough. He lost the primaries. (And BTW wasn't even a member of the party.) Get over it, Berners.

The rightwingnuts don't win with arguments. They win with lies and BS.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory
Quote
Proponents of Horseshoe Theory argue that the extreme left and the extreme right are closer to each other than either is to the political center
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 06:50:35 AM by Martin Gisser »