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Author Topic: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out  (Read 126277 times)

Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1900 on: April 13, 2019, 08:43:40 AM »
Assange is a litmus test for liberals/progressives/lefties, both the politicians and the voters.

Neven, I'm a liberal/progressive/leftie and I think Assange should face his day in court.
If he did nothing wrong, he will be set free.

Is that what you mean with the 'litmus test' ?

Yes, you obviously fail it. But we knew that already.

I'm a Bernie supporter, Neven.

Did Bernie pass your test yet ?

If not, who (of US politicians) did ?
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1901 on: April 13, 2019, 09:10:01 AM »
I'm a Bernie supporter, Neven.

Did Bernie pass your test yet ?

No, not yet. And if he doesn't, it's because he has to pander to people like you, or because he's compromised. It's not easy to do what he's trying to do in a fascist deep state, with such a large part of the population brainwashed by corporate mainstream media.

Quote
If not, who (of US politicians) did ?

As far as I have seen, only Gabbard and Gravel. Maybe Rand Paul,I don't know. AOC said she's worried about what this means for journalism, but she's also clearly careful about how she speaks her mind, as she knows that so many on the 'left' are war-lovers who believe 100% in American exceptionalism.

If someone mentions the chilling effect this stuff has on freedom of the press, they pass my test more or less. But I'd rather see them denounce the whole thing, because again, they're helping instead of resisting Trump.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1902 on: April 13, 2019, 09:34:16 AM »
I'm a Bernie supporter, Neven.

Did Bernie pass your test yet ?

No, not yet. And if he doesn't, it's because he has to pander to people like you, or because he's compromised. It's not easy to do what he's trying to do in a fascist deep state, with such a large part of the population brainwashed by corporate mainstream media.

Have you considered the possibility that maybe it's not the mainstream media and the entire population of the USA, but instead YOU are the one who is brainwashed ?

I mean "fascist deep state" ?
Are you serious ?
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Susan Anderson

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1903 on: April 13, 2019, 05:19:00 PM »
I have very little appetite for the single minded bullying that claims I'm trying to attack the "free speech" of the clique that dominates here. We get that from White Nationalists here.

But I did come across a good quote to share. It's why so many people trying to present other valid views here have given up (including, mostly, myself). The multiple attack posts here are not coming from me, but from people who wish to silence voices that correct the group view. It does, in fact, closely resemble the likes of WattsUpWithThat on climate, embracing anything that agrees with the bias, and rejecting anything that provides a wider view and critical thinking.

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the story, like so many Trump-era stories, is a trap: questioning the assumption would have led journalists down the slippery slope of arguing about facts, denying outrageous claims that shouldn’t be given the time it takes to deny them.
--
I'm not saying there's not plenty of blame to go around, just that it's important to acknowledge that the situation we inherited cannot be fixed overnight, or possibly at all, since it derives from centuries and millenia of human experience. We need a community of good people, not the tiny fraction of perfectionists who don't acknowledge their own shortcomings (everyone living participates in modern comforts that exploit the earth and the poor, though some are trying harder than others to grow out of it). The introduction of wage slavery, for example, traces back to the origins of money and growth of populations. I suggest for the thoughtful reader the book Ramp Hollow by Steven Stoll.

Blaming victims gives power to oppressors.

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1904 on: April 13, 2019, 07:23:10 PM »
Susan, it feels as if you're involved with heated debates in other places, Twitter or what have you, and then you come here and you still feel persecuted by a crowd of people. Or maybe you feel there are Russians under your bed. Either way, it's a very small group of people that is dishing it out in these threads, so please keep the paranoia in check.

To get back on-topic: Are you too cheering for Assange's arrest?

Edit: Just re-read your comment, so let me add that Corporate Democrats aren't victims. They really aren't. They're just a huge hindrance to taking on Trump and the GOP in a way that may win (unlike the neoliberal, third way, meritocratic BS that is so easy to beat through populism), or a shield, one might say. They'd rather lose to Trump than let someone like Sanders or Warren win.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2019, 10:19:13 PM by Neven »
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sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1905 on: April 13, 2019, 11:03:38 PM »
Democrats pledge not to take corp money; take it anyway.

"have found a broad loophole"

Nothing to see here. These are not corporate dollars. Go about you business, citizen.

https://theintercept.com/2019/04/13/democrats-corporate-pac-money/

sidd

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1906 on: April 14, 2019, 05:11:40 PM »
Have you considered the possibility that maybe it's not the mainstream media and the entire population of the USA, but instead YOU are the one who is brainwashed ?

Yes, entirely possible. I'm well aware of my limitations. My type of brain can only go so far.

But I'm basing what I say on the writings and words of people that to me score very high on things like wisdom and integrity, so many of them, and what they're saying makes so much sense, that it can't all be wrong.

For instance, I'm in the process of translating a Dutch TV report on 'bullshit jobs', and they interview this anthropologist who says this:

Quote
Former left-wing parties, like the Labour Party in the UK or the Democrats in the US, which had a working-class base, increasingly made a conscious decision, essentially, to ditch the working class as their primary support and go for the support of the, what might be called the professional managerial or techno-managerial classes. Professionals, you know, doctors, lawyers, hospital administrators, bureaucrats, people like that (N: like Rob Dekker) became the core constituencies of left-wing parties. Why do you think the workers are increasingly voting right? Because they resent being ditched.

video of the Gilets Jaunes

You know, someone like Macron is a classic centrist and represents the techno-managerial classes, that are essentially in alliance with the financial classes, the Clintons, the Blairites, all of those guys. They're technocrats, they think everything is a solution that should be solved by experts. So, they don't really believe in democracy at all, they think most people are stupid (N: like Martin Gisser). And those classes are the ones which are represented as the reasonable left, but in fact, what they represent, is a kind of a horrific fusion of bureaucracy and markets, the worst of all possible worlds. Which is nonetheless foisted on us as the only alternative to fascism (N: like Susan Anderson).

Quote
I mean "fascist deep state" ?
Are you serious ?

Yes, very serious. Have you seen who your president is? Are you aware of the history of your intelligence agencies? Do you know that your country has started illegal wars around the world, is still engaged in them, and pushes for new ones? Do you know that your country hosts the largest penal colony in the world, consisting mostly of males from ethnic minorities for minor offenses? Do you know that you are effectively living in a surveillance state? Do you know that the influence of corporate entities on your government and politics is so large that it's really difficult to deny the fascismness?

Just the fact that you are living the American Dream, doesn't mean you do not live in a fascist deep state. As a self-proclaimed progressive lefty, it should be so easy for you to acknowledge this, or to acknowledge the point and add some context or nuance. But you can't, because you're not a progressive/lefty. You're that guy from the techno-managerial class who gets rewarded so handsomely by the system and Democrats are pandering to, instead of to the majority of the US, the workers and the poor.

The silence on Assange is deafening. God, it's so easy for Corporate Democrats to block any meaningful change, with so many cowards around. Especially the old ones, as they don't have anything to lose, even though they gained so much from the system that will make the lives of those who come behind them, misery.
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sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1907 on: April 14, 2019, 11:10:55 PM »
"Former left-wing parties, like the Labour Party in the UK or the Democrats in the US, which had a working-class base, increasingly made a conscious decision, essentially, to ditch the working class as their primary support and go for the support of the, what might be called the professional managerial or techno-managerial classes. Professionals, you know, doctors, lawyers, hospital administrators, bureaucrats, people like that (N: like Rob Dekker) became the core constituencies of left-wing parties. Why do you think the workers are increasingly voting right? Because they resent being ditched."

This is comprehensively addressed by Piketty, as i have posted before.

http://piketty.pse.ens.fr/files/Piketty2018PoliticalConflict.pdf

I attach grafs for France,UK,US, but read the whole thing.

But more to the point: educated professional classes have no solidarity with the working classes. They don't give a shit as long as they get theirs. A few might donate to their local charities, wash their hands and call it a day. But just try to put a homeless shelter or lo income housing in their neighbourhoods, and watch the fun. Hell some of them don't even want a bus line. Where there is a busline, they dont even want shelters for the waiting passengers. The wrong kind of people might show up.

I have, for my sins, undergone higher education, and I retain many friends among the highly educated. It is quite amazing to see them decry right and left wing populism, and yet furiously defend their own living spaces from contamination by the lower classes. How in the world do they think that populist sentiment arises ? That is a wilful blindness that will doom them.

No wonder the guy on the street says fuck it, throws over the table and burns the place down.

sidd



Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1908 on: April 15, 2019, 07:49:51 AM »
Have you considered the possibility that maybe it's not the mainstream media and the entire population of the USA, but instead YOU are the one who is brainwashed ?

Yes, entirely possible. I'm well aware of my limitations. My type of brain can only go so far.

But I'm basing what I say on the writings and words of people that to me score very high on things like wisdom and integrity, so many of them, and what they're saying makes so much sense, that it can't all be wrong.

That explains why we differ in opinion about so many things :

I'm a fact checker.
I don't base my opinion on what people say and the 'wisdom' or 'integrity' that I think they have.

Instead I ask for evidence, look at the facts and then use logic and reasoning to form my opinion.

Quote
Quote
I mean "fascist deep state" ?
Are you serious ?

Yes, very serious. Have you seen who your president is? Are you aware of the history of your intelligence agencies? Do you know that your country has started illegal wars around the world, is still engaged in them, and pushes for new ones? Do you know that your country hosts the largest penal colony in the world, consisting mostly of males from ethnic minorities for minor offenses? Do you know that you are effectively living in a surveillance state? Do you know that the influence of corporate entities on your government and politics is so large that it's really difficult to deny the fascismness?

Just the fact that you are living the American Dream, doesn't mean you do not live in a fascist deep state. As a self-proclaimed progressive lefty, it should be so easy for you to acknowledge this, or to acknowledge the point and add some context or nuance. But you can't, because you're not a progressive/lefty. You're that guy from the techno-managerial class who gets rewarded so handsomely by the system and Democrats are pandering to, instead of to the majority of the US, the workers and the poor.

The silence on Assange is deafening. God, it's so easy for Corporate Democrats to block any meaningful change, with so many cowards around. Especially the old ones, as they don't have anything to lose, even though they gained so much from the system that will make the lives of those who come behind them, misery.

OK. That's enough.

When I joined this forum and your blog, I thought we had a common goal of fighting AGW denial by using facts and logic.

It took me a while, but I now realize that you are fighting different issues and you use not reason and logic, but anger (against the US and liberals and democrats and other fact checkers like Bellingcat and capitalism and MSM) to form your opinion, and you then fight the facts whenever they contradict your preconceived extremist world view (fascist deep state, brainstormed US population, innocent Assad, innocent Russia etc etc).

And since I challenge that world view with facts, your posts became increasingly personal against me.

As a result, I feel that my contributions to this forum became counter productive.
So good luck resolving your issues with Lurk on your side, because I'm out of here.

This time for good.

P.S. Stop telling that you like Bernie. I like Bernie and what he says and does not say. And it does not match with what you say.
Your ideas are much more in line with Tulsi Gabbard.
And Tulsi is NOT progressive.
Just check the facts on that.
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1909 on: April 15, 2019, 10:17:18 AM »
All the best, Rob.
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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1910 on: April 15, 2019, 05:29:21 PM »
Good 'Un agreeing with Trump on Ilhan Omar, but not on his use of sacred 9/11 images. Also good to see her resist, I mean kiss Trump. Good 'Un, as in good at raising funds from fellow out-of-touch millionaires who expect something in return.

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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1911 on: April 15, 2019, 05:52:18 PM »
Stop blaming victims for doing this kind of stuff:

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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1912 on: April 15, 2019, 10:12:04 PM »
Sanders fights back a bit against those who demand unity and then smear progressives:

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sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1913 on: April 15, 2019, 11:47:37 PM »
Atcheson at commondreams sees Trump getting re-elected: it's all about the no shows

" the real prize in electoral politics is the no shows ...96 million didn’t bother to vote "

"Democrats win when turnout is high; Republicans win when turnout is low."

"To get some of the no-shows on board, you’d have to run a campaign centered on the people’s interest, not the monied interests."

" Trump voters aren’t voting for anything, their voting against the status quo."

"And all those cynics are right. The system is rigged."

"No wonder people are cynical. No wonder “no-show” has won every vote since World War II. "

"The majority of Americans overwhelmingly back progressive policies,"

" instead of adopting the obvious winning strategy, neoliberals are waging a war on progressives."

"Trump’s supporters don’t care how bad he is. They just care that he’s assaulting the powers that be. "

"the reason that the neoliberal establishment doesn’t adopt the obvious strategy for winning back the White House and the Senate while retaining the House is simple. They got where they are by serving the interests of the rich, the elite, and corporations. "

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2019/04/15/why-us-elected-despot-and-why-its-poised-do-it-again

sidd

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1914 on: April 16, 2019, 11:17:33 AM »
Plastic Pelosi, enemy of the people, friend of the donors, corrupt to the core, only interested in obstructing the new generation and manipulating out-of-touch CNN seniors, rather having Trump as president than Sanders or Warren:







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ritter

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1915 on: April 16, 2019, 05:19:04 PM »
Pelosi is not one of the good 'uns. Unless you're wealthy. She is most certainly an elitist peddling stale, moldy crumbs to the commoners.

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1916 on: April 16, 2019, 11:20:20 PM »
Daou agonistes: Clintonista recants

"My rhetorical fights with the Sanders campaign over Clinton’s personal character were seen by some progressives as an attack on their principles. They were certainly not intended that way. And in the years since, I’ve worked diligently to heal the wounds, to reach out to those I argued with, to move beyond 2016"

but:

"the intractable disagreements from the bitter 2016 primary will never be resolved. Ever. "

he goes on:

"I supported Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez"

"The half-measures, watered down policies, and empty platitudes that Democratic politicians have become accustomed to over the years won’t cut it"

"For me, going left is going back to core American values and principles. "

"Progressive positions are the morally correct ones. "

ends with a quote from Tayari Jones: “There is nothing inherently virtuous about being neither here nor there . . . What is halfway between moral and immoral?”

Read it at:

https://peterdaou.com/go-left-dems/

I don't trust the guy,looks like another rat leaving the sinking ship. But who knows, stranger things have happened.

sidd



Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1917 on: April 16, 2019, 11:28:31 PM »
There's a funny Twitter feed that spoofs Peter Daou, often mentioned by Jimmy Dore: Peter Douche's Liaison
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sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1918 on: Today at 12:06:49 AM »
Moore on Pelosi: "old, tired, privileged ways"

"Nobody likes giving up power. And they never see the writing on the wall."

https://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-know/in-the-know/439064-michael-moore-slams-pelosi-after-60-minutes-interview-her-old-tired

There is an interview linked there that is worth reading:

https://www.thenation.com/article/michael-moore-how-democrats-paved-the-way-to-trump/

sidd

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1919 on: Today at 01:42:19 PM »
"...disturbing if true...", indeed!

Establishment Dems Start War on Bernie


Klondike Kat

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1920 on: Today at 02:48:15 PM »
I think the biggest take from that video is that the DNC is worried that they cannot control and influence Sanders, like they could any other candidate.  The Republican party had this same issue back in 2016, and tried vehemently to stop Trump from securing the nomination.  They failed, and the party has little control over the presidency today. 

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1921 on: Today at 02:59:14 PM »
I couldn't agree more, Kat. *waves*

And this is why i support him, he is so consistent and stubborn on the issues, he knows in his bones that he is right, he is the least corruptible of all of them. This scares the hell out of Washington.

Klondike Kat

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1922 on: Today at 03:02:09 PM »
I couldn't agree more, Kat. *waves*

And this is why i support him, he is so consistent and stubborn on the issues, he knows in his bones that he is right, he is the least corruptible of all of them. This scares the hell out of Washington.

Almost as much as Trump scared the hell out of Washington.  Image what would happen if they ran against each other in 2020? 

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1923 on: Today at 03:16:36 PM »
The non-fake populist would win IMHO.

Trump promised so much pre-2016. He ran as a populist and this bought him the election [1].

Turns out he didn't drain the swamp. On the contrary, he exposed the country for its cleptocracy that it is. What former presidents did intelligently behind the curtain, he pulled out for everyone to see.

People might have noticed...


[1] and the racist dog whistling of course. I think Sanders can activate more votes from majorities and young people than Trump can activate from racist voters.