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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #200 on: May 05, 2017, 07:41:00 AM »
Here's the Bill Maher interview I mentioned.
Short and beeped version: https://www.attn.com/videos/16897/bill-maher-has-some-advice-democrats
Long version with a good laugh at the end: https://www.attn.com/stories/16642/bill-mahers-advice-democrats

The way I interpret it - based on my viewings of Bill Maher (whom I still like to watch occasionally, even though he has horrible guests lots of the time) - is not that he says we need tough Corporate Democrats in order to win (because it's all about winning because the other team has to lose at all costs). But Democrats need to stop the empty rhetoric (like Perez: 'If we lead with our values' or 'if we put hope on the ballot') and the whining about identity politics ('Bernie Sanders is a sexist misogynist!').

That's another good reason to either kick Corporate Democrats out, or at least make sure they dance to your tunes, because they'll say anything (and not do it) to keep that donor money flowing.

That's not what Jimmy Dore is doing at all in that link you posted. He's talking about the hypocrisy that bubbles up when you compare Obama's nice words with what he has actually (not) done while in office. And now he stuffs his pockets and has fun on billionaire yachts.
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JayW

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #201 on: May 05, 2017, 01:14:19 PM »
I think it's important to remember that less than half of eligible voters in the U.S. actually cast a ballot.  And the people that voted in the 2012 election are not necessarily the same that voted in 2016.

It's often, if not usually, the voter turnout/suppression that tips the balance.

Hillary Clinton wasn't exactly an "energizing" candidate for the left.  But Trump sure drummed up the far right.

There's been, and continues to be an effort to discourage voting, it is almost systemic at colleges in regards to out of state students.  Voter ID laws, etc..

The populace is more transient than ever, creating another voting deterrent.

Extrapolating the "will of the American people" from the voting patterns is incorrect in my opinion.  The balance of power is almost always swinging back and forth, just seems further with each iteration. 

Folks love electing inept individuals and then complaining about them.   :)

"To defy the laws of tradition, is a crusade only of the brave" - Les Claypool

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #202 on: May 06, 2017, 11:07:58 AM »
This lady explains what opportunity lies ahead if Corporate Democrats can be made to feel that people are watching what they are doing (from 6.18 min onwards):

http://youtu.be/EP6_Pzj9ddE?t=6m18s
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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #203 on: May 07, 2017, 11:37:58 AM »
Jimmy Dore has another example of a Corporate Democrat (Dianne Feinstein):

! No longer available
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TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #204 on: May 07, 2017, 12:15:02 PM »
Give her some credit. She at least admits, after watching the CIA presentation, that "We have zero evidence of Russian collusion during the 2016 campaign".


https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2017/05/05/feinstein-we-have-zero-evidence-of-russian-collusion-during-2016-campaign-n2322991



While I'll readily admit that she could be on Putin's payroll, or that her politics has always been of the Radical Right. I believe it's easier to just take her at her word, knowing that if she'd seen any evidence, she'd have been more than happy to say so.


Terry

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #205 on: May 07, 2017, 01:23:58 PM »
She doesn't pass the purity test. And yes, there should be a purity test.
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Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #206 on: May 07, 2017, 02:55:19 PM »
Give her some credit. She at least admits, after watching the CIA presentation, that "We have zero evidence of Russian collusion during the 2016 campaign".


https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2017/05/05/feinstein-we-have-zero-evidence-of-russian-collusion-during-2016-campaign-n2322991



While I'll readily admit that she could be on Putin's payroll, or that her politics has always been of the Radical Right. I believe it's easier to just take her at her word, knowing that if she'd seen any evidence, she'd have been more than happy to say so.


Terry
Can anybody dig out the FULL Feinstein interview? (Essential homework!) Google only gives Republican (and Russian) propagandists quoting a snippet.

ivica

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #207 on: May 07, 2017, 03:53:21 PM »
Can anybody dig out the FULL Feinstein interview? (Essential homework!) Google only gives Republican (and Russian) propagandists quoting a snippet.

This?:

https://duckduckgo.com/html?t=disconnect&q=FULL+Feinstein+interview
returns quite a few hits, 2 examples:

http://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/video/full-feinstein-interview-hacks-targeted-both-parties-855351363924



Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #208 on: May 07, 2017, 04:08:31 PM »
Jimmy Dore has another example of a Corporate Democrat (Dianne Feinstein):

! No longer available
This is again an example why I liken Jimmy Dore to Rush Limbaugh. Bad logic, selective evidence, blaming the victim... While he is certainly more intellectual than Limbaugh, his logic is the logic of a hateful child.  He is a stealth Republican propagandist, working out their divide et impera strategy... (Heck, feels I'm getting as pissed as my friend Susan Anderson, who alas walked off the discussions here...)

Dore conveniently leaves out the decades long fight for decent healthcare. Remember Hillary's vain attempts at serious healthcare reform? Other Democrats' proposals? The rise of the Tea Party? The "death panel" myth? ... (Well, Dore at least says "today" when quoting today's majority support for universal healthcare. But why is it today? That would require him to go off his Obama=evil script...)

While the Dems had a majority back then, there was no chance whatsoever to get anything better than "Romneycare" (introduced by Massachusetts Dems, vetoed by Romney at first). It took an Obama to get at least something done.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act#Healthcare_debate.2C_2008.E2.80.9310
Quote
This approach was taken because the president and congressional leaders had concluded that more progressive plans, such as the (single-payer) Medicare for All act, could not obtain filibuster-proof support in the Senate.

OK, now I have checked my dismissal of Dore at enough evidence. Henceforth I refuse giving him any more click.


Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #209 on: May 07, 2017, 04:30:55 PM »
Can anybody dig out the FULL Feinstein interview? (Essential homework!) Google only gives Republican (and Russian) propagandists quoting a snippet.

This?:

https://duckduckgo.com/html?t=disconnect&q=FULL+Feinstein+interview
returns quite a few hits, 2 examples:

http://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/video/full-feinstein-interview-hacks-targeted-both-parties-855351363924


Thanks for doing our homework :-)
It is this: starting at 6:50 (wrrr, after 6:50 on Hillary's emails. When will they ever learn?)


Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #211 on: May 07, 2017, 05:55:53 PM »
OK, now I have checked my dismissal of Dore at enough evidence. Henceforth I refuse giving him any more click.

I'm sorry you feel that way, Martin. Jimmy Dore is a straight shooter (which doesn't mean he's always right) who simply refuses to unite behind the lesser evil of Corporate Democrats, as that isn't going to cut it. He's actually glad in a way that Trump has won, because now people are awake and there's an opening for some meaningful pushback.

Lawsuit against DNC :

http://jampac.us/dnclawsuit/

commentary:

https://thefloridasqueeze.com/2017/05/01/dnc-lawsuit-youre-morons-to-believe-us-part-1-of-3/

https://thefloridasqueeze.com/2017/05/04/dnc-lawsuit-dnc-wont-answer-courts-basic-question-about-state-primary-deals-part-2-of-3/

this puts the DNC in a hard place.

sidd

What that DNC lawyer said about how the DNC isn't under any obligation to be impartial and that they could 'pick a candidate while smoking cigars' like they did in the old days, is another stunning example of what is wrong with how the Democratic Party works.

Let's hope the judge gives them a big slap on the fingers. That would be another good signal. And people need to keep protesting at Corporate Democrat townhalls, etc.
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Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #212 on: May 07, 2017, 07:28:30 PM »
He's actually glad in a way that Trump has won, because now people are awake and there's an opening for some meaningful pushback.
Sad, bigly, but true. It needed a Trump presidency to awaken The People...

Alas this comes too late. After GWB I would have cheered Trump. But there's no time left, meanwhile, to sort out his wreckage. And worse, we can't afford the risk of kleptocrats taking advantage of the chaos of the coming Trump wreckage (and the despair of the hopeless and stupid) and transforming the U.S. into another Russia, fulgurating a planet devouring fossil monster... (That's what often happens after destructive non-evolutionary revolutions.)

The planet has now entered the chaotic phase of the transition to a hot house climate, nicely illustrated in the Arctic. The time for polit childs play and voting experiments is over.

To think that Bernie would have cut it is methinks mightily naive. To blame Obama or Hillary (even the DNC) is self-destructive. The hate spread by naive perfectionist progressives like Jimmy Dore works only into the hands of the Republicans: The U.S. is a two party system due to its primitive pre-telegraph age vote counting. There is no chance for a 3rd party, as in a modern system. Thus the imperative is to resist tribalist divide-and-conquer logic.

Neven, I still owe you an answer on perfectionist 0/1 logic vs. fuzzy logic. (Me forgot which post and where.)

I could (and should) write a longish essay on this, but the stuff I studied during the last years (motivated by Heidegger's question shown in my sig) is stuffed in a back chamber of my brain, and I won't open that box soon - for I need to concentrate that weak brain on my maths book project. Yes, maths, the epitome of logic. Yet I need to protest the havoc wrecked by 0/1 logic in the realms of life and human group dynamics. So, just an example:

"You are either with us or you are with the terrorists" - George W Bush
 "refuse to unite behind the lesser evil of Corporate Democrats" - some progressive U.S. pundit
hmmm I forgot the other examples I had in mind yesterday, before it got wiped off my brain screen...

On equating lesser evil with greater evil, here is Bill Maher's comment:


budmantis

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #213 on: May 08, 2017, 12:43:58 AM »

I'm sorry you feel that way, Martin. Jimmy Dore is a straight shooter (which doesn't mean he's always right) who simply refuses to unite behind the lesser evil of Corporate Democrats, as that isn't going to cut it. He's actually glad in a way that Trump has won, because now people are awake and there's an opening for some meaningful pushback.


[/quote]

I think Martin may have a point about Jimmy Dore, but it's merely a hunch with nothing to back it up. I cant help but wonder and I could be way off base, but aren't you placing too much trust in this guy?

BudM

Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #214 on: May 08, 2017, 01:42:03 AM »
What that DNC lawyer said about how the DNC isn't under any obligation to be impartial and that they could 'pick a candidate while smoking cigars' like they did in the old days, is another stunning example of what is wrong with how the Democratic Party works.

Let's hope the judge gives them a big slap on the fingers. That would be another good signal. And people need to keep protesting at Corporate Democrat townhalls, etc.

From Kurt Eichenwald, one of the most hard working reporters out there:
http://www.newsweek.com/myths-cost-democrats-presidential-election-521044
Quote
THE MYTHS DEMOCRATS SWALLOWED THAT COST THEM THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION
...
1. The Myth of the All-Powerful Democratic National Committee

Easily the most ridiculous argument this year was that the DNC was some sort of monolith that orchestrated the nomination of Hillary Clinton against the will of “the people.” This was immensely popular with the Bernie-or-Busters, those who declared themselves unwilling to vote for Clinton under any circumstances because the Democratic primary had been rigged (and how many of these people laughed when Trump started moaning about election rigging?). The notion that the fix was in was stupid, as were the people who believed it.
...
This was why then-President Richard Nixon reacted with incredulity when he heard that some of his people had ordered a break-in at the DNC offices at the Watergate; he couldn’t figure out what information anyone would want out of such a toothless organization.
...

In other words, the argument that the DNC rigged the debates is, by any rational analysis, garbage. [wrrr]

Next, the infamous hack of DNC emails that “proved” the organization had its thumb on the scale for Clinton. Perhaps nothing has been more frustrating for people in the politics business to address, because the conspiracy is based on ignorance.

Almost every email that set off the “rigged” accusations was from May 2016. (One was in late April; I’ll address that below.) Even in the most ridiculous of dream worlds, Sanders could not have possibly won the nomination after May 3—at that point, he needed 984 more pledged delegates, but there were only 933 available in the remaining contests. And political pros could tell by the delegate math that the race was over on April 19, since a victory would require him to win almost every single delegate after that,  [wrrr].

Sanders voters proclaimed that superdelegates, elected officials and party regulars who controlled thousands of votes, could flip their support and instead vote for the candidate with the fewest votes. In other words, they wanted the party to overthrow the will of the majority of voters. That Sanders fans were wishing for an establishment overthrow of the electorate more common in banana republics or dictatorships is obscene. (One side note: Sanders supporters also made a big deal out of the fact that many of the superdelegates had expressed support for Clinton early in the campaign. They did the same thing in 2008, then switched to Obama when he won the most pledged delegates. Same thing would have happened with Sanders if he had persuaded more people to vote for him.)

This is important because it shows Sanders supporters were tricked into believing a false narrative. Once only one candidate can win the nomination, of course the DNC gets to work on that person’s behalf. Of course emails from that time would reflect support for the person who would clearly be the nominee. And given that their jobs are to elect Democrats, of course DNC officials were annoyed that Sanders would not tell his followers he could not possibly be the nominee. ...
...

Bottom line: The “scandalous” DNC emails were hacked by people working with the Kremlin, then misrepresented online by Russian propagandists to gullible fools who never checked the dates of the documents.

...

To remind you, Eichenwald is perhaps most famous for an incident that strongly suggests treason (i.e. Russiagate) or/and criminal stupidity of the Trump campaign:

"Dear Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin, I Am Not Sidney Blumenthal" (10/10/2016)
http://www.newsweek.com/vladimir-putin-sidney-blumenthal-hillary-clinton-donald-trump-benghazi-sputnik-508635

"How I Got Slimed By Russian Propagandist Site Sputnik" (10/20/2016)
http://www.newsweek.com/russia-propaganda-site-sputnik-donald-trump-sidney-blumenthal-vladimir-putin-512271
Quote
There was some important information about that document I could not explicitly state in my article, because I needed to protect a government source. That source has now given me permission to say more. What I have not revealed until now is that American intelligence determined that the false document—10,000 words that had been snipped down to two sentences and then sent out as an image on Twitter—was originally altered by a Russian operative and fed onto the internet through Reddit.
...
The original, undoctored Blumenthal email was released last week by Wikileaks, which played no role in it being altered. Wikileaks is as much of a victim in this deception as anyone else.
...
...

TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #215 on: May 08, 2017, 02:37:18 AM »
So
You present us with another Russophobe's writings.


Intriguing but hardly convincing.


When Feinstein says there's no evidence, that's news.
It Putin offered the same words, it's just expected.


Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed: everything else is public relations. George Orwell
[/size]Terry

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #216 on: May 08, 2017, 09:06:08 AM »
This is a thread about kicking out the corporate democrats. Some here question the need for this thread. Well, then, I suggest they start a thread entitled: "The need, or lack thereof,  for a thread entitled 'The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out' "

the progression

1) it's not happening
2) it's not bad
3) it's too hard
4) it's too late
 
doesn't just apply to climate.

In other news, here's Jaffe, the Pelosi challenger

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-me-on-politics-column-20170505-story.html

and the DiFi challenger

https://jackpineradicals.com/boards/topic/primary-challenger-for-difi-in-2018/

keep on truckin. we can beat these corporate whores.

sidd

Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #217 on: May 08, 2017, 02:45:41 PM »
Neven, I still owe you an answer on perfectionist 0/1 logic vs. fuzzy logic. (Me forgot which post and where.)

I could (and should) write a longish essay on this, but the stuff I studied during the last years (motivated by Heidegger's question shown in my sig) is stuffed in a back chamber of my brain, and I won't open that box soon - for I need to concentrate that weak brain on my maths book project. Yes, maths, the epitome of logic. Yet I need to protest the havoc wrecked by 0/1 logic in the realms of life and human group dynamics. So, just an example:

"You are either with us or you are with the terrorists" - George W Bush
 "refuse to unite behind the lesser evil of Corporate Democrats" - some progressive U.S. pundit
hmmm I forgot the other examples I had in mind yesterday, before it got wiped off my brain screen...
Here's the other example. It happens often enough, not just to Al Gore: Being accused of hypocrisy for not being perfect.
So I had this discussion about fossil carbon burning again. And the lad concluded: "You came here by car, burning fossil carbon, so you better shut up."

Shut up until I have a horse and clothes made from selfgrown hemp? Only then I'm eligible to talk about the lad's monster SUV?
(Yes, my fossil carbon footprint is nonzero. But it's way below average. And half of that nonzero is due to the old heating system in the house I'm currently living in, my old family home - the last year before it gets torn down. Then I hope my old car has helped me find a place where I can build my dream house: a stone age mud hut with a carbon negative fireplace...)

TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #218 on: May 08, 2017, 03:13:29 PM »
Being moderately corrupt may be more akin to being moderately pregnant.


It's in my blood.


My grandfather was the supervisor of the initial GE lab in Schenectady NY. Steinmetz was his brain guy & Al Jolson's home was over his back fence. With a 10 year old daughter and a wife to support he walked out when confronted with a deal he didn't believe was on the up & up.(cleaned that up for the lawyers out there)
Took a while, but he had 2 factories and 5 stores before he died.


Even politicians can be honest, if their not bribed before the first vote is cast.


Otherwise why bother?
Terry

Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #219 on: May 08, 2017, 03:43:20 PM »
Being moderately corrupt may be more akin to being moderately pregnant.
Great example of not getting it.
I'm a radical adherent of the Middle Way known from Buddhist philosophy: Avoid extremes. That includes avoiding extreme avoidance of extremes. Maybe that is a bit to paradoxical to grasp for some... Yes, there are either/or 0/1 situations in life (e.g. pregnant or not). But between evil and good there's a continuum of more or less evil/good where the Law of Excluded Middle does not apply.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_excluded_middle

I have no scruples using that law in mathematical reasoning - when I don't see an easy direct way of proving a theorem. I know this will not lead to inconsistencies. BUT when it comes to judgements within a living environment in nontrivial situations beyond counting sheep and babies, then I regard this law as highly dangerous. I know it can lead to bloodshed and catastrophe. The Law of Excluded Middle is one of the devil's favorite tools.
E.g. I'm also a radical adherent of Hanlon's razor: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor
« Last Edit: May 08, 2017, 03:53:51 PM by Martin Gisser »

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #220 on: May 08, 2017, 04:52:30 PM »
Okay, I've been looking into that Kurt Eichenwald guy. He's definitely working hard, probably too hard to be an objective journalist. You know, to the point where he sends out 37 tweets in a row linking to that Blumenthal thing, where the conspiracy theory goes a bit overboard (see here, here, here and here). But never mind.

Here's the other example. It happens often enough, not just to Al Gore: Being accused of hypocrisy for not being perfect.
So I had this discussion about fossil carbon burning again. And the lad concluded: "You came here by car, burning fossil carbon, so you better shut up."

Shut up until I have a horse and clothes made from selfgrown hemp? Only then I'm eligible to talk about the lad's monster SUV?
(Yes, my fossil carbon footprint is nonzero. But it's way below average. And half of that nonzero is due to the old heating system in the house I'm currently living in, my old family home - the last year before it gets torn down. Then I hope my old car has helped me find a place where I can build my dream house: a stone age mud hut with a carbon negative fireplace...)

Here's the problem, you're obviously projecting yourself onto the Corporate Democrats. But the analogy is imperfect (as they almost always are). I agree with you that you don't have to be perfect in order to be allowed to say something. But Corporate Democrats actually wield power and thus have a responsibility that goes beyond the freedom to do and say what you want. In fact, the problem is that they say one thing and do the other, but they don't seem to be accountable for any of it.

Do you really find it okay that politicians put more weight on what their donors want than to do what is right for the majority? And then not be transparent about that, but just deflect with vague rhetoric? And you really think you're going to defeat the Evil Republicans that way? This hasn't worked for decades now! When is it ever time for revolution, or to just simply draw a line and say: no further?

A lesser evil is still evil. To demand honesty and transparency is not being fanatic. It is the foundation without which nothing good can ever be built. That's not a purity test. It is simply a prerequisite. And it's also about having a vision and ideas with which to win people over again to the good cause. Trying to be like Republicans is simply counter-productive because they're so much better at it (no scruples, cognitive dissonance, etc).

I just don't understand why people can't agree that Corporate Democrats need to be pushed back, held accountable and, if possible, replaced. Who and how is up for discussion, but it's clear that the Democratic Party is corrupt to its core, and something needs to be done about it if we want to stand a chance of carrying out systemic change.

Martin, is it just because you hate the stupid, evil Republicans so much that you want everyone to unite behind Corporate Democrats? How is this not extreme?

I'm sure there's some analogy here from Star Wars where Luke Skywalker is told to focus on the Force within himself if he wants to defeat Darth Vader.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2017, 05:05:29 PM by Neven »
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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #221 on: May 08, 2017, 05:17:58 PM »
I think Martin may have a point about Jimmy Dore, but it's merely a hunch with nothing to back it up. I cant help but wonder and I could be way off base, but aren't you placing too much trust in this guy?

Sure, who knows? Like I've said, I like to listen to comedians explaining their point of view. These are usually pretty bright guys and they're also independent thinkers because that helps their comedy (having to be able to come at things from a different perspective, turning things around). They like to dish it out on both sides, and they don't take themselves too seriously. Oh, yeah, and they have a sense of humour.

These are all characteristics that make me trust people. Jimmy Dore may be wrong about things, but I don't doubt his integrity or that he truly means what he says. I've also watched his non-political comedy stuff and listened to interviews with him. He's an interesting guy. Perhaps not the best comedian or the best political commentator, but the way he combines the two make him pretty good overall.

He may be wrong about some details, but I find his overall argument and message pretty persuasive. And I like his passion as an activist. So, I trust him and I prefer to watch him than (corporate) mainstream media. I also like to watch Democracy Now, TheRealNewsNetwork,  The Young Turks and some other vloggers I occasionally watch. And I watch Bill Maher too.
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Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #222 on: May 08, 2017, 05:45:27 PM »
Martin, is it just because you hate the stupid, evil Republicans so much that you want everyone to unite behind Corporate Democrats?
No, I'm all for minimizing corporate corrupting influence. I should have said so. Instead my time here got consumed by defending Obama or Hillary etc. against perfectionist false equivalences.

E.g. blaming Obama for his half-baked healthcare reform. Oh broken promises... not! Or saying they are just as corrupt as any Republican fossil industry whore, just because they dare interact with the powers that rule the U.S.: E.g. there's a difference between 1) doing a speech at Wall Street (and investing the pay in charitable projects) and 2) putting Goldman Sachs folks at the helms of power.

Another example: There's quite a difference between Branson and Tillerson. Obama vacationing with Branson is quite different to Trump making Tillerson secretary of state. (Branson sure is a bit evil, but he's also one of the greatest greenwashers. Obama almost surely discussed climate stuff with him. In contrast, Tillerson is almost pure evil, the dark overlord of fossil fuel colonialism (Chad, Indonesia, etc. etc.))

Taking money from Silicon Valley is a different shade of evil than taking money (plus pre-drafted ALEC legislation) from the Koch brothers or coal barons etc.

Vilifying the best (yet not perfect) polit powerhorses the Democratic party has got (Obama, Hillary, ☆) is doing the "circular firing squad" thing that Susan Anderson was complaining. I'm still a bit pissed she was driven away from this thread. She has more political intelligence plus practical experience in political street work than any of us here.

☆and no, Bernie doesn't yet count much. He's just talk. His hands are not seriously dirty.
Well, Bernie has proven that you can rally people without coporate money. But that's a totally new paradigm shift. On this you should focus, not on slandering people who actually did some of the dirty work. (And heck I betcha, a president Bernie would have turned out as "disappointing" as Obama. "All" those promises shattered by the realities of Washinton DC...)

{Edit done now}
« Last Edit: May 08, 2017, 05:55:26 PM by Martin Gisser »

budmantis

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #223 on: May 08, 2017, 05:50:49 PM »
My first impression of Jimmy Dore was similar to Martin's, but after listening for a while I think he's good. I'm cautious because I know very little about him, but he seems genuine.

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TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #224 on: May 08, 2017, 06:42:40 PM »
I also miss Susan's comments, and can't understand why she left. Some of us disagreed with her take on things, but I don't believe she was ever attacked personally.
If everyone suddenly saw the world exactly as I did, I'd run to my optometrist.
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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #225 on: May 10, 2017, 02:44:08 AM »
I just talked to Donnie.  He wanted to give you folks a BIG shout out and make sure you get all the "Corporate Democrats" out of office.   He thinks you are definitely on the right track.;)

Don't watch him though....he's not up to anything important...... ;)
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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #226 on: May 10, 2017, 09:09:45 AM »
I just talked to Donnie.  He wanted to give you folks a BIG shout out and make sure you get all the "Corporate Democrats" out of office.   He thinks you are definitely on the right track.;)

Don't watch him though....he's not up to anything important...... ;)

Which Corporate Democrats exactly, Buddy? Which ones will serve the interests of their donors rather than those of the American people? That's what this thread is about.

If you're saying 'don't change anything, just rake in the money, or we will never be able to beat the evil Republicans' you will lose again. But most of all, the American people and the rest of the world will lose.
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Buddy

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #227 on: May 10, 2017, 01:10:53 PM »
Again...Donnie is more than happy to see any Democrat's worrying about other Democrat's right now.  He would LIKE you to keep it up.  He would LOVE for you to worry about other Democrat's right now.

YOU DON'T WORRY ABOUT REDESIGNING THE HOUSE WHEN THE HOUSE IS BURNING DOWN.  YOU PUT OUT THE FIRE FIRST....

Right now...the US democracy is in the hand of several moderate Democrat's.  If the senate doesn't have enough moderate's to stand up for democracy......WE ARE FUCKED.

Donald Trump want's more power.  Donald Trump wants to change the constitution.  Right now...the folks in the US need people to concentrate on getting Putin Trump out of office.  Because Trump would LOVE to have the things that his financier has in Russia.

Donnie's next move will be to get a friendly face to head the FBI.  Chris Cristy or Rudy Guiliani would do just fine.  Especially since Rudy is under investigation by the FBI.  The Director of FBI has to be confirmed by the Senate.

I would worry about having a democracy before I think about redesigning it.  Otherwise....there won't be democracy to redesign.



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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #228 on: May 10, 2017, 04:24:28 PM »
Buddy, according to your logic, Trump is going to be impeached within the next two years. Even if he isn't, he's doing so much effed-up stuff (besides the obvious being in bed with Russian oligarchs/kleptocrats) that there's a very good chance of a backlash, resulting in him losing the 2020 elections.

So, the question is: Who are the Democrats going to put up against him? And what will the message be? Will the message be about ideas to help the American people and inspire hope (and convincingly, not just empty rhetoric)? Or will the message be: We're not Trump, we just take money from corporations and then act is if we're serving the interest of the people?

Quote
Right now...the US democracy is in the hand of several moderate Democrat's.  If the senate doesn't have enough moderate's to stand up for democracy......WE ARE FUCKED.

Again, this isn't about shouting FIRE, FIRE, FIRE! This is about thinking about mid- to long-term strategy that serves the interests of the American people best (not just the 1%).

So, who are the moderates you talk about? And who are the Corporate Democrats that have to be removed from office, or be made clear they better start serving the American people real fast. Give us names, Buddy.

For instance, this here from The Young Turks, a video called Justice Democrat to Primary Joe Manchin (West Virginia senator):

! No longer available

Would you be in favour of Manchin losing his seat in the Senate? Or do you say: No, he's a moderate who raises a lot of money, and without him we have no chance of beating the Republicans?

Remember, Corporate Democrats gave you Hillary, and thus gave you Trump. First they pressured everyone else to go along, and now they're blaming everyone else for their own failure, so that they can do it all over again. But next time they fail, it's going to be worse. And if they win, it's just business-as-usual.

We need some more purity. We need systemic change, instead of bogus compromise.
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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #229 on: May 10, 2017, 04:52:09 PM »
Quote
Would you be in favour of Manchin losing his seat in the Senate? Or do you say: No, he's a moderate who raises a lot of money, and without him we have no chance of beating the Republicans?

Clearly....you don't get it.  So...I'll stop talking to a brick wall.

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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #230 on: May 10, 2017, 05:07:10 PM »
Quote
Would you be in favour of Manchin losing his seat in the Senate? Or do you say: No, he's a moderate who raises a lot of money, and without him we have no chance of beating the Republicans?

Clearly....you don't get it.  So...I'll stop talking to a brick wall.

Point to an earlier explanation, and I'll read it (again). If not, please explain.
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sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #231 on: May 10, 2017, 08:47:04 PM »
Re:  Manchin/Swearingen primary

Good deal. She might not win, but lets see where it goes in the primary.

Looks like the Justice democrats are looking to primary the corporates in a lot of places.

sidd


Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #232 on: May 10, 2017, 10:16:28 PM »
I checked out her donation page, but there it clearly says:

Quote
CONTRIBUTION RULES
I am a U.S. citizen or lawfully admitted permanent resident (i.e., green card holder).
This contribution is made from my own funds, and funds are not being provided to me by another person or entity for the purpose of making this contribution.
I am making this contribution with my own personal credit card and not with a corporate or business credit card or a card issued to another person.
I am at least eighteen years old.
I am not a federal contractor.

So, no (small) donation from Austria.

I hope she has enough experience. On the other hand, when the contractor who was going to build the shell of our house asked whether I had any building experience, I said: Yes, afterwards.  ;)
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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #233 on: May 11, 2017, 02:57:30 PM »
Trump just put breaking up the banks on the table. Lets see if any Democrats run with it. I suspect none will.
With all those Goldman Sachs alumni at Trump's table? Dream on.

Trump and friends will give the banks the means to break themselves, by rolling back the meager regulations that the Obama administration was able to put in place. Here we will see the difference between "corporate Republicans" and "corporate Democrats". Trump will pave the road to the next financial crisis.

...

And there it goes:

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/05/keith-noreika-donald-trump
Quote
THE WHITE HOUSE JUST USED A BRAZEN BACKDOOR MOVE TO BYPASS THE SENATE
A loophole allowed the Trump administration to install a Wall Street lawyer to take over one of the nation’s most powerful regulators without a hearing or confirmation.

In a week in which Donald Trump fired the person investigating his campaign’s ties to Russia, it will surely come as a shock to learn that the circumstances under which financial services lawyer Keith Noreika became the head of a powerful Wall Street regulator were not totally above board.

The story begins here: Donald Trump has promised his friends in the banking industry that he will gut financial regulations. But one thing that’s prevented him from doing so, thus far, has been the head of the Office of the Comptroller, Thomas Curry, who was appointed by Barack Obama and was thus a killjoy who made it his job—because it kind of was his job—to impose tough rules and big fines for wrongdoing in the industry. It was clear, given Trump and Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchnin’s pledge to unshackle Wall Street from financial-crisis-era regulations, that Curry not only had to go, but be replaced by someone with a more friendly relationship with the banks, like Noreika.

Unfortunately, there was a problem with the longtime financial services attorney: Noreika, who reportedly worked closely with the same Wall Street companies that are overseen by the O.C.C., would have to be approved by the Senate—a process that would involve airing all of Noreika’s financial conflicts of interest. So the Trump administration devised a plan to avoid that particular obstacle
...

Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #234 on: May 11, 2017, 03:00:53 PM »
I checked out her donation page, but there it clearly says:

Quote
CONTRIBUTION RULES
I am a U.S. citizen or lawfully admitted permanent resident (i.e., green card holder).
This contribution is made from my own funds, and funds are not being provided to me by another person or entity for the purpose of making this contribution.
I am making this contribution with my own personal credit card and not with a corporate or business credit card or a card issued to another person.
I am at least eighteen years old.
I am not a federal contractor.

...
Bravo! That's what I want to see. Lets hope Bernie was not just one exception to the 100y old paradigm (big money = campaign success) but the start of a new era.

Last year my advice to frustrated Berners was: Vote Hillary - and then help grow the movement.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2017, 03:06:53 PM by Martin Gisser »

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #235 on: May 11, 2017, 04:08:09 PM »
Last year my advice to frustrated Berners was: Vote Hillary - and then help grow the movement.

And this year the advice to frustrated Hillarners is: Help grow the movement.  ;D

Quote
Bravo! That's what I want to see. Lets hope Bernie was not just one exception to the 100y old paradigm (big money = campaign success) but the start of a new era.

Exactly, and that's the point of this thread. Get those Republican elements out of the Democratic Party, so that it really becomes the party of the people again. Even if this Swearingen can't beat Manchin, it will send out a signal. Especially if it starts happening to other Corporate Democrats too, and people keep cheering Sanders (the most popular politician in the US by far at the moment) and booing Perez ('lead with our values', 'put hope on the ballot', blah blah blah).

But imagine Swearingen does beat Manchin.
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sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #236 on: May 11, 2017, 06:24:33 PM »
Re: Thomas Curry, OCC

Appointed by Obama. Highlights of his tenure include letting JP Morgan Chase walk, letting HSBC walk, delaying prosecution of Wells Fargo, and doing his bit in ensuring that no bank was broken and no banker went to jail. Here's Elizabeth Warren:

"Comptroller of the Currency Thomas Curry said his office executed a number of consent orders but does not have to take supervised banks and thrifts to trial as a practical matter.

“I appreciate that you say you don’t have to bring them to trial,” Warren persisted. “My question is when did you bring them to trial?

None of the agency leaders seemed to be able to recall such a time. "

http://www.doddfrankupdate.com/DFU/ArticlesDFU/Warren-comes-out-swinging-during-first-Senate-Bank-57251.aspx

Of course they couldn't. They were bought and paid for, just like Obama. Watch that revolving door, as Thomas Curry is handsomely rewarded for his pains. I shed no tears for him.

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #237 on: May 11, 2017, 08:41:01 PM »
Kshama Sawant lays it on the line:

"Why is -- when the majority of people want single payer, why is it that the most prominent Democrat, Nancy Pelosi, said that single payer will not be in the Democratic Party platform? Why is it that in Democratic-dominated states -- Washington, Oregon, California, all of these have Democratic governors -- why isn't it that they are joining? Why aren't the prominent Democrats joining the movements on the ground and saying, "Let's fight for single-payer healthcare. Let's tax the rich. Let's make sure we have a West Coast-wide single-payer healthcare"? If they did that, if Jerry Brown, the governor of California, woke up today and said, "I want to fight for single-payer healthcare with you," he would get a huge echo, and they would win. But instead, he is an obstacle to that. And so, you know -- and he said, "I don't know how we can do this."

AMY GOODMAN: We have 10 seconds.

KSHAMA SAWANT: And that's -- yeah. And that shows that, ultimately, movements, our working people's, young people's movements, we cannot rely on corporate Democrats. We will have to build independently of the corporate Democrats and fight for single-payer healthcare. "

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/40563-kshama-sawant-don-t-wait-for-authoritarian-trump-to-be-impeached-this-is-the-moment-to-revolt

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #238 on: May 12, 2017, 12:32:27 AM »

Bravo! That's what I want to see. Lets hope Bernie was not just one exception to the 100y old paradigm (big money = campaign success) but the start of a new era.

Last year my advice to frustrated Berners was: Vote Hillary - and then help grow the movement.


Bernie wasn't the only campaigner that fought Big Money and won.
That's two exceptions in one election!!


On both sides of the aisle the Big Money candidates lost big time. I don't know if these were exceptions, but it feels as though the internet is now making it's presence felt. Big Money and Big Media both lost when 100 years of history, at least, said they should have won.


If we're wrong and Big Money wins in 2018, we'll have 2 years to get back on the horse and drive it to the next election. If we're right, and underfunded candidates win the seats that are winnable, we'll have the formula for a sweep in 2020.


We're expected to lose in 2018 as things stand. Why not bet on the long shot?


Terry

Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #239 on: May 12, 2017, 01:13:41 AM »
Kshama Sawant lays it on the line:

"Why is -- when the majority of people want single payer, why is it that the most prominent Democrat, Nancy Pelosi, said that single payer will not be in the Democratic Party platform? Why is it that in Democratic-dominated states -- Washington, Oregon, California, all of these have Democratic governors -- why isn't it that they are joining? Why aren't the prominent Democrats joining the movements on the ground and saying, "Let's fight for single-payer healthcare.
Maybe they remember what the right did to Hillary 20y back. She is now so covered in shit that it amazes me she is still standing. Kshama is a nice girl and I would vote for her. But redneck flyover America (backed by ample corporate money) would then go nuts and mobilize the militia to shoot her. Or so it looked until recently.

TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #240 on: May 12, 2017, 03:17:05 AM »
Martin
I don't recall if you've ever lived in the US for any time. Healthcare in America, before and after Obama is/was much worse than those outside the country can imagine. It's one of the planks that the Democrats might be able to win on.
The hatchet job done on Hillary was horrendous, I'm not convinced it would play quite as well the second time around.
If, as sidd says, Ca. Or. & Wa. opted for single payer, the rest of the country would soon want the same, and they'd vote for whoever offered it.
I think.  :(


Terry

Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #241 on: May 12, 2017, 04:18:56 AM »
I don't recall if you've ever lived in the US for any time.
10 weeks total. 3 weeks high school in NJ in 1980ies which left me forever in love with the country (not the nation). 5 weeks Arizona State University + 2 weeks travelling in 1990ies. Crossed the country from West to NY on the bus. Have met people from Indian reservations, Vietnam veterans hiding out in the back of evacuated Yosemite park, geniuses at the MIT (Brandeis, actually), etc. Been on the WTC on a September sunny day like 9/11.

One American friend will visit me again for a few weeks this year for traveling around Europe. He's an elderly ur-hippie ex Black Panther with FBI experiences. Last year he got me into watching the Trump debacle almost non-stop since. wrrr... :)

Apropos. Now I really need to take a serious pause from all that. Will be gone soon.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2017, 04:24:19 AM by Martin Gisser »

TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #242 on: May 12, 2017, 05:19:24 AM »

I like your distinction between the country and the nation, it accurately describes my own feelings much of the time.

Your friend is very lucky to be alive. Listen to his stories. Let him know that some of us knew the truth back in the day & give him my best.


Terry





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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #243 on: May 12, 2017, 05:48:16 AM »
Quote
Would you be in favour of Manchin losing his seat in the Senate? Or do you say: No, he's a moderate who raises a lot of money, and without him we have no chance of beating the Republicans?

Clearly....you don't get it.  So...I'll stop talking to a brick wall.

Point to an earlier explanation, and I'll read it (again). If not, please explain.

Buddy, you compared Neven to a brick wall. I think he deserves a response to his post.

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #244 on: May 12, 2017, 04:01:59 PM »
Quote
Buddy, you compared Neven to a brick wall. I think he deserves a response to his post.

Budmantis....you are mixing TWO VERY DIFFERENT ISSUES.  APPLES AND CHICKEN (not even apples and oranges....further away than that ;)).

The issue that I do NOT believe Neven sees is that Donnie is a VERY DANGEROUS PERSON WHO NEEDS TO BE DEALT WITH BEFORE HE BURNS DOWN THE HOUSE (country).  If he were to succeed....as to what DONNIE WANTS (as well as those at FOX News)....then you can forget about changing Democracy. 

The issue/question of Joe Manchin isn't in the same ballpark.

BTW.....I hate Joe Manchin.....and so should all of West Virginia.  (1)  Joe is a Republican....he isn't a Democrat (the D is just for looks) (2) but the reason I hate him, is that he has sold West Virginia's future down the drain....just like his Republican counterparts in Kentucky (yes...I'm talking about YOU Mitch McConell and Rand Paul).  Concentrating on coal for the past 10 years or more, when it should have been clear that they should be moving AWAY FROM COAL if they wanted a future.

Take care of Donnie...and then you guys can worry about "kleptocrats" or whatever you call it.  I'm an Independent....so I am fascinated by people's "attachment" to their party affiliation.  If you look back over history....you'll see that party affiliation changes sides on MANY ISSUES  over the years.  I'm a "policy guy".  I believe attaching a D or an R to your names IMMEDIATELY GIVES YOU A BIAS.

As I have stated several times.....Neven and I are probably MUCH closer than he realizes on many of the policy issues (wealth, global warming, etc).  But we may be WAY DIFFERENT as to policies to get "there".   For instance....I HATE UNIONS.  BUT...I understand why they were set up, because employers were taking advantage of workers.  I won't get into this right now....its too lengthy to get into here....but I believe there are better ways to SHRINK THE WEALTH GAP.....GET RID OF UNIONS....AND PROTECT EMPLOYEES, all at the same time.  Enough said on this....this is NOT high on my "triage list" right now.

But as you guys...and others....attack policy issues.....just remember that they have to be "workable"/"doable" things.  For instance.....I read a post by Neven on "wealth"....and it is NOT WORKABLE from the get go.  He has the "right sentiment"....and he and I want to get to the "same general place".....but he is attacking it ALL WRONG (more on that months down the road when Donnie is safely in the pscyh ward). ;)

 
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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #245 on: May 12, 2017, 07:00:07 PM »
"Kshama is a nice girl and I would vote for her. But redneck flyover America (backed by ample corporate money) would then go nuts and mobilize the militia to shoot her. Or so it looked until recently.:

I have been through several thousand miles of "redneck flyover" country in the last two weeks, and many,many times that over the years. I submit that there is a very great deal of support for single payer health plans among democrat and repulblican and independent alike.

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #246 on: May 12, 2017, 10:24:05 PM »
Thanks for the explanation, Buddy. And good to see we agree on most things, except perhaps on strategy.

I hope everything with Trump goes as you say it must. And then I would like to see Trump get replaced by the best possible person. That's why I opened this thread, because that person won't be coming from the dysfunctional Republican party. And so he/she will have to come from the Democratic Party, and if it's another Corporate Democrat a) nothing much will really change, and b) something worse than Trump will come along and get elected.

I just hope that after Obama and Trump, the American people will still be able to muster enough confidence when the real deal comes along. They haven't had an honest president since Jimmy Carter.
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sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #247 on: May 13, 2017, 02:16:43 AM »
Re: " They haven't had an honest president since Jimmy Carter."

1) Jimmy Carter is a good man today. I have worked as nondescript muscle on Habitat for Humanity site, and he showed up and worked as hard as any. He can swing a hammer, for sure, and i'll help him build houses.

2) That said, I will not forgive him for the Carter Doctrine,  and listening to Brezenski to provoke Soviet military intervention. Buncha dead people on his book. I think he realizes it.

http://www.counterpunch.org/1998/01/15/how-jimmy-carter-and-i-started-the-mujahideen/

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #248 on: May 13, 2017, 06:14:09 PM »
Re: " They haven't had an honest president since Jimmy Carter."

1) Jimmy Carter is a good man today. I have worked as nondescript muscle on Habitat for Humanity site, and he showed up and worked as hard as any. He can swing a hammer, for sure, and i'll help him build houses.

2) That said, I will not forgive him for the Carter Doctrine,  and listening to Brezenski to provoke Soviet military intervention. Buncha dead people on his book. I think he realizes it.

http://www.counterpunch.org/1998/01/15/how-jimmy-carter-and-i-started-the-mujahideen/

sidd


Jimmy is the best ex-president to date. What he did in office needs a whitewash.
Didn't Obama just announce a multi million dollar speech assignment? He's going to beat Reagan and Daddy Bush!


What is it that makes us so much better than the Republicans?
We're peaceful.
We're not on the take.
We're for the little guy.
We're not them.


Yay! Three cheers for our side!
Terry

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #249 on: May 13, 2017, 10:31:54 PM »
$3.2Million for one speech. That Obama sure can talk!!


If he only worked on Tuesdays he'd make, les see, I don't have enough fingers or toes but it's a lot of money, and a loooong weekend off every week.


Someone referred to this as Pre-Bribery. The idea is that you fete the last president lavishly as you ask favors from the present office holder. No laws broken, no one jailed or bailed, smooth operation.
With Corporate Democrats in the DNC these things can all be worked out in advance.


Ain't life wonderful???
Terry