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budmantis

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #550 on: October 30, 2017, 12:28:24 AM »

At least Michelle Obama likes GWB! If someone told me ten years ago that POTUS in 2017 would be someone I detested more than W, I wouldn't have believed it.

You detest a vulgar reality show host more than a war criminal? Your memory must be failing you.

You know you can detest both, right? There is no need to legitimize one over the other. Neocons are pure evil, and so are their puppets.

I thought my language was clear that I detested both W and Trump, I just detest Trump more.

BudM

Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #551 on: October 30, 2017, 02:15:49 AM »
Now y'all made me watch the big Matt Lauer interview with GWB. You should, too.

As a warm up maybe start with Jimmy Kimmel's interview:

My impression: This man has spirit, not just hollow ego like Trump.


Highlights: 15:30 ff. GWB: "Let's talk waterboarding"
34:50 GWB on Katrina: "Detached and uncaring"
At the end: On TARP (his deed, not Obama's).

My impression: This is a grownup man, not just a self-absorbed degenerate sausage like Trump. But sure, GWB had quite an opportunity to grow... Maybe our judgement of Trump would also change when all is done and he got time to reflect. But I seriously doubt that.

If you want to compare presidents, there are two perspectives: The man himself, and the presidency incl. team and the times.

Imagine Trump had minds like Cheney, Rove, Rice, etc. around and not just corrupted and clueless swamp alligators, and not the demented Tea Party "GOP" of today. Plus, stuff happening like 9/11... What an opportunity would that be for a Trump presidency to vastly dwarf the stuff of GWB's presidency. Trump is just a cultural catastrophe, for now, luckily...

Heck, now you made me defend GWB.

BTW, I regard all catholic popes from Pacelli onward to Ratzinger as virtual mass murderers. To be hanged, or better garotted in a condom for incitement to autogenocide. Pacelli even complicit with Hitler. And Mother Theresa an angel of death. Seriously. Others judge them only as naive and ideologically deluded, just like GWB...
« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 02:45:06 AM by Martin Gisser »

Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #552 on: October 30, 2017, 06:57:35 AM »
If it sounds like a pig, smells like a pig, and looks like a pig, it is probably a pig.

Rob, this line of argument is very similar to what we see on Fox news and right-wing blog sites. Therefore it must be invalid.  :D

It's like saying: Sean Hannity says Harvey Weinstein is a sexual abuser, and so it probably isn't true. I don't know which fallacy on the list it is (syllogistic fallacy?), but it is a fallacy. Just saying.

I don't think there is any logical fallacy in my statement. Let me know if you find it.
I simply pointed out that sidd's statements are indistinguishable from right-wing propaganda.

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After giving my views, I posed a couple questions of my own to you, Rob, but you didn't reply directly. Here they are again: Is the Democratic Party perfect as it is? Do Corporate Democrats not exist?

No. The Democratic Party is not perfect as it is. It needs to reform and change to match its voter base better. I think it is doing that, and as evidence I suggest how the Democratic Convention seriously moved to the Bernie side during the 2016 elections.

Regarding "Do Corporate Democrats not exist?" I don't know. I have not seen any evidence of any Democrat voting for "serving the interests of corporations/donors" over "serving the people".
Maybe you could come up with some voting records that prove me wrong ?

Also, for the moment it does not matter if Democrats are "conventional" or "progressive" or anything else : They ALL vote against the Trump agenda.

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Wait a minute. If a majority of members of the Democratic Party want the party to become more left-leaning or progressive instead of neoliberal, how could the leadership object to that?
The majority of the Democratic Party voted for Hillary.

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Besides, do you know how hard it is to set up a third party? Especially given the fact that all of the media is in the hands of just a few corporations (thanks to Bill Clinton's privatisation of the telecommunications market, one of the many Republican policy things he did). You've seen what happened during the Democratic primaries and what the DNC and media did to Sanders.

Yes. Bernie was under-represented in the media. No doubt about it.
Most of the air-time went to Trump, probably because his statements are unpredictable and challenging. Much like Howard Stern in the early days, where the most commonly given reason to listen to him by BOTH by people that despised him and people that loved him was :

"What will he say next ?".
« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 07:08:30 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #553 on: October 30, 2017, 07:54:10 AM »
Quote
and the first one to call out climate change as a real issue and actually do something about it (Keystone XL vote and Clean Power Plan).

Yes, and he also promoted an 'all of the above' energy policy, with fracking featuring prominently:

That was when oil was $150 / barrel, the US economy was in a downspin, and the financial sector was on cardiac arrest.

Different times, Neven, different times.

Quote

Obama's dirty secret: the fossil fuel projects the US littered around the world (Guardian)


At the very end of his second term did he finally rush a couple of things (5-year ban on Arctic drilling, coal mine ruling, etc), which were undone after a weeks or to be undone soon by Trump and his cronies. Keystone XL was no more than a symbolic gesture, and Obama even saw fit to berate environmentalists. But that wasn't as bad as his silence when a brutal police force bashed and humiliated peaceful activists at Standing Rock, who tried to stop DAPL.

Police brutality at Standing Rock is inexcusable, and some of it happened during Obama's final months in office. I admit that much.

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But this is, of course, small change compared to the way he bailed out the banks (no wonder given the huge amount of campaign money he had received from Wall Street, and now he happily gives talks there).

Actually the bank bail-out was highly profitable for the American tax payer.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/bailout-highly-profitable-for-taxpayers-when-you-look-at-the-right-numbers/2015/01/01/dc2a05a6-8fa5-11e4-a412-4b735edc7175_story.html?utm_term=.da9c33274336

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And instead of reducing the wars in the Middle East, he expanded them. Anyone care to Google 'Obama drones children'?

I expected something more mature from you, Neven.
Obama ended the war in Iraq, greatly downsized the war in Afganistan, and killed Bin Laden.

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He pushed NAFTA and TPP, effectively reducing Hillary's chances of becoming president.

That does not make any sense, unless you assume that everybody was against NAFTA and the TPP. Not everybody was, so it may not have "reduced Hillary's chances of becoming president".
Both treaties were shot down by the media after Trump spoke out against it. But Trump has not repealed NAFTA yet. Wonder why....

Quote
And there's more, so much more (like that video I posted of Michael Moore describing how Obama drank water in Flint, Michigan to declare all was okay). Obama had a chance to do something huge after 'yes, we can' and his message of hope. He didn't do it, because he was beholden to special interests and didn't have the courage to push and fight.

I disagree. Obama was not able to do something 'huge' because FIRST of all, he had to take the US economy off cardiac arrest. After (and while) he did that, he had to face exceptional and utter unreasonable smearing and outright non-stop aggression from the right, which made it very hard for him to govern, especially the latter years when he did not have the support of (the Republican) Congress.

Despite that smearing, he STILL managed to push through the ACA, the Clean Power Plan, the new Fuel Efficiency (CAFE) Standards and a vote against Keystone XL, among many other regulations that benefit the environment and the people of the US and abroad. All of which is now being reversed by Trump.

Please recognize this man's accomplishments instead of pissing on him and calling him 'hypocrytical' without evidence. His accomplishments have been better than any other president in modern history, especially on environmental issues.

Obama was the most progressive President in modern history. Can you name one more progressive than him ?

Thank you very much.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 09:01:07 AM by Rob Dekker »
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budmantis

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #554 on: October 30, 2017, 01:45:25 PM »
Neven, I have to agree in large part to what Rob said about Obama. The Democrats lost both houses of Congress in 2010, in large part due to the Democrats passing the ACA in February of that year. I'm sure the ACA would have been a far better product if there had been some bi-partisanship. The ACA passed without one Republican vote. With Congress mostly in the hands of the Republicans for the balance of Obama's tenure in office, it was difficult to make any progress but he did manage to do quite a bit, in my opinion.

BudM

TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #555 on: October 30, 2017, 03:44:10 PM »
Personally Obama is/was a disappointment.


Whether this was due to incompetence or indifference, hubris or hypocrisy is debatable, but 8 years after Bush, Git-Mo still stands, NATO encircles Russia, Assassination by drone is in practice, John Yoo is a free man, and Romney-care was given as a poor substitute for single payer healthcare.


Carter wore sweaters and bathed in solar heated water, in the white house. I rebuilt 3 houses on the tax breaks Jimmy handed out for upping the insulation. His association with Brzezinski came close to ruining his foreign policy, but he did pull back from supporting the worlds worst offenders just because they said nasty things about the commies.
An ideal progressive - no. The most progressive, most ecologically caring modern president - yes. And has everyone forgotten that he was also a submariner, as well as the only president to hold a degree in nuclear physics & engineering.


There was a study by (Harvard)? recently that showed America to be an oligarchy. The study didn't differentiate between years when the Democrats were in power or years when Republicans were in power. The rich won their battles no matter who was in power, which indicates that both parties are and were in the sway of their corporate donors.


When a million protesters are in the street we need to ask, who provided the buses, who is picking up the food tab, who distributed the signage, and who invited them to this street on this day.


Terry

budmantis

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #556 on: October 30, 2017, 03:54:15 PM »
Personally Obama is/was a disappointment.


Romney-care was given as a poor substitute for single payer healthcare.



How was Obama to get single payer through Congress? At least the ACA is a step in the right direction. I'm all for single payer but there was no way it would pass and although Obama can be blamed for some things, you cant blame him for that.

BudM



TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #557 on: October 30, 2017, 04:11:29 PM »
Personally Obama is/was a disappointment.


Romney-care was given as a poor substitute for single payer healthcare.



How was Obama to get single payer through Congress? At least the ACA is a step in the right direction. I'm all for single payer but there was no way it would pass and although Obama can be blamed for some things, you cant blame him for that.

BudM


I can, and I do. >:(
Terry

Buddy

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #558 on: October 30, 2017, 04:28:04 PM »
Government policy is ALWAYS lagging the public.  ALWAYS.  And humans aren't great on "giant steps".  It's out of most people comfort zones (Musk and others are obviously exceptions).

So....Budmantis is right.  You can't go from A to Z in one step.  Especially when you are the first black president.

We'll get to universal healthcare in the US.  I have done some work in healthcare as a CFO.  That DOESNT make me an expert.  Nor does it make me an unknowing Nimwit.

Obama streched where he thought he could stretch things. Did he REALLLY believe in "clean coal" when campaigning in Ohio?  NO.  But he had to say that to win the state.  Those who win....get to HELP make policy.  Those that lose don't.

I believe the next 10 years is going to see hyper change in MANY THINGS in the US and elsewhere.  Healthcare, transportation, automation, AI, power generation, agriculture, space, AND psychology (more on this much later).

And we.....globally......need to push those changes UP the chain.  And there needs to be a CLOSING of the wealth gap.  Otherwise it will explode.

First things first:

1). Get Donnie, Mikey, and company out of office (this is in the works)
2). Get GOOD PEOPLE (much better people) to run for office (this is also now in the works)
3). Get involved YOURSELF locally.  Hold people accountable and call out lies.
4). Now....you have a base on improving policy
5). Work to get money out of politics (Citizens United repeal....campaign finance reform...etc)
6). Change policies

It doesnt happen overnight.  And FACTS....SCIENCE....are at the forefront.  But you need to do things in the right order.....👀

Oh yea.  Expose FOX News for lying over the past 20 years.....and continuing to lie. 😳


FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

budmantis

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #559 on: October 30, 2017, 05:49:07 PM »
Personally Obama is/was a disappointment.


Romney-care was given as a poor substitute for single payer healthcare.



How was Obama to get single payer through Congress? At least the ACA is a step in the right direction. I'm all for single payer but there was no way it would pass and although Obama can be blamed for some things, you cant blame him for that.

BudM


I can, and I do. >:(
Terry

You can do whatever you like Terry, but blaming Obama for not enacting single payer is illogical. Knowing the landscape in Congress,  What could he have done to bring single payer to fruition?

BudM

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #560 on: October 30, 2017, 07:34:48 PM »
You can do whatever you like Terry, but blaming Obama for not enacting single payer is illogical. Knowing the landscape in Congress,  What could he have done to bring single payer to fruition?

Talk about how important it is (especially for those millions of people who can't afford health care), how almost every developed country in the world has a single payer health care system, and how the Republicans are fighting it for their corporate donors (Big Pharma and insurance industry who make huge profits off of the system in place). That way you set them up to pay a political price for their criminal behaviour, even if you can't push it through. At the same time you tie them to the oligarchy, shooting their fake populist ploy out of the water.

But Obama and other Corporate Democrats can't do that, because they too are beholden to special interests! That's why they cosy up to neocons now and legitimize Republicans instead of tying them to trump at every turn, so he takes them down with him.

I've been watching some videos with political commentators espousing their views on Obama. They all say that though Obama may have done a few good things, his presidency was a huge disappointment, especially when contrasted with that enormous hope for change (well-crafted PR) that got him elected.

But what struck me most was this video with Noam Chomsky from 2010. A member of the audience gives examples of what happened in the past when exaggerated high hopes were dashed (leading to the return of De Gaulle, as well as the rise of Thatcher and Reagan). He then asks what could happen in the US if that process is repeated. Watch Chomsky's reply (I'll type out the best parts below the video):



Quote
Obama made it primarily because the financial institutions who have enormous power in the country, mainly thanks to Reagan and Clinton, preferred him to McCain. So they poured money into the Obama campaign.

(...)

One technique is, if you really want to create an uninformed electorate, you have to keep issues off the agenda. Both of the political parties are commonly well to the right of the population. It's important to keep issues off the table to make sure people don't know what they are.

(...)

So, what will the result likely be? My suspicion is an erosion of the base for the Obama campaign, because people will be disillusioned - they shouldn't be, but they will be and its understandable - and a very significant backlash. There's a major, a huge group of people in the country who feel they have serious grievances. The grievances go back to the 1970s. 

The shift of the economy from production to finance, which was a huge shift that took place - primarily under Reagan and Clinton and then of course Bush even more extreme - and that's left a lot of people out in the cold. A majority of the population have seen their wages and incomes stagnate for 30 years. Their benefits declined, you know, services declined, infrastructure collapsed, and so on.

And they're not happy about it. They want to know: Why is this happening to me? If you listen to talk radio, you get a good sense of it. The standard person is saying something like: You know, I've done everything right. I'm a hard-working, decent, white Christian. I've done everything right. Why is this happening to me?

Well, who is going to give him an answer? They're not going to get an answer from the Republican Party, saying: Yeah, that's the policies we designed to shaft you for a couple of rich people. And they're not getting an answer from the Democratic Party, saying: Well, that's pretty much our policy too, except maybe not so extreme.

And so they get an answer from Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck, who tell them: Well, I got an answer. It's the rich Liberals who own the banks and run the government and own the media, and don't care about the fly-over people. They only care about the rich folk on the two coasts. They want to give everything away to illegal immigrants and the unworthy poor. And so on.

So, that's your problem. If that's the only answer you're going to get, people are likely to believe it. And we've seen... we've had experiences like this. It's unfortunately reminiscent of late Weimar Germany, where there were also people with grievances, and they were getting an answer, a crazy answer, a horrible answer, that happened to take over,with consequences we know about.

I'm not saying that's going to happen here, but the similarities are not insignificant.

I think that if the people with real grievances that Chomsky refers to (half the US population makes less than 30K per year, I believe, and that's often based on non-liveable wages) get shafted again, the next Trump won't be a bumbling, vulgar reality show celebrity, but a real fascist.

And so it is of paramount importance that those people get an honest answer in the next few years, a real vision espoused by people that aren't easily smeared with being in the pocket of the oligarchs. The Republican Party isn't going to do it. And neither will the Corporate Democrats, because they can't. Both will resort to lies, half-truths and hollow PR phrases to incite and divide.

But Bernie Sanders is showing how it can be done, by offering an alternative to extreme right (GOP) and just plain right (Corporate Democrats/Republican lite). I think that the 'easiest' way to accomplish this, is for the real progressive movement to take over the Democratic Party. And for that Corporate Democrats need to either be removed from their positions, or feel sufficiently threatened to actually start acting on the will of the people. All the way, not just gestures.

To determine who is a Corporate Democrat, you look at four things:

1. Campaign contributions
2. Voting record
3. Over-all presentation in the media
4. Their positions on single payer health care, free college, bank regulation, minimum wages, money out of politics.

These four things combined should give an indication of where a politician stands on the spectrum.

Shall we have a look at the 'fine' Nancy Pelosi first? Or do we talk about Obama some more? We could discuss how many children were killed by his drone program (and him using that as a joke), for instance. Or how his bail-out of the banks benefited the 'tax payers' (read 1%) and how no banker or hedge fund manager went to jail, while thousands of people got evicted out of their homes.

Or maybe a more positive, pro-active thing to do, would be to look at how the progressive movement is gathering, uniting, presenting candidates that have vowed not to accept corporate campaign contributions, and then actively support that?

God, I wish I was American. There's so little I can do from here, even though my child will be affected by what happens in that crazy US of A.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 09:11:14 PM by Neven »
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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #561 on: October 30, 2017, 09:18:57 PM »
Or maybe we should skip to Joe Manchin (there's a Justice Democrat primarying him). What do you think, Rob? Corporate Democrat?

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TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #562 on: October 30, 2017, 09:41:41 PM »
Joseph Manchin III was also in favor of Trump's nomination of Neil Gorsuch to the Supreme Court, one of Susan A.'s bug-a-boo's if I recall correctly.


How does Joe's primary challenger sit with Susan?


Terry

magnamentis

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #563 on: October 30, 2017, 10:26:26 PM »

If you believed in 2008, as most did, that Bush was a monster. You were correct, hold that thought. If in 2017 you find that "W" deserves another look, you're wrong. Trump's boorish idiocy doesn't trump Bush's blatant evil, and hopefully it never will.

While we look under our beds for Ruskies, the world continues to burn.

Terry

soooo..... well said and russians are not the ignitors IMO but those who always point at others, i mean the ones south of where you're living are, and not only since yesterday.

stopping here else it could last for longer LOL

Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #564 on: October 31, 2017, 12:28:16 AM »
And so it is of paramount importance that those people get an honest answer
That presupposes they want or can appreciate an honest answer.

Too many don't and can't.

In 2011 I had a long chat with an American tourist. One of those elite coast dwellers. Atheist, believing in evolution and steam engine science. He even knew Switzerland on the map (no, not north of Niagara)...

One of those folks the elderly Crazy White Man of flyover America despises and never will listen to or vote for.

I was wondering why the Dems lost the House to the Reps 2010, after the Affordable Care act went through. And indeed "Obamacare" was a major issue. GOP propaganda made them hate it. They want to suffer. Christians fundamentalists worshipping Mammon and hating socialism.

So, methinks the major problem is a death spiral of stupid. The only hope is a demographic shift. Then a Bernie might win next time.

--------------
BTW the bank bailout was started by GWB. 50% believe it was due to Obama (cf. big GWB interview). I said you can blame Obama for not jailing them banksters. But actually methinks he did the prudent thing: Never touch a running system, esp. when it was at the verge of breaking and shows robust signs of recovering. (Firemakers know this)
« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 01:20:06 AM by Martin Gisser »

Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #565 on: October 31, 2017, 01:05:43 AM »
get shafted again
And how they get shafted now!

(E.g. "Trump's E.P.A. is fine with children eating food tainted by a pesticide derived from a nerve gas." https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/10/28/opinion/sunday/chlorpyrifos-dow-environmental-protection-agency.html )

And they love it. Poll numbers (still above 30% approval!) are telling that Trump voters don't regret. And will never.

My demographic shift is luckily helped by the opioid crisis, which mainly affects the elderly Crazy White Man. They love Trump's "solution" a la Nancy Reagan: "Just say no!". So easy. It took a Trump to find this. But not working -- and the Trumplins don't want to hear an honest answer why.

Alas those poll numbers actually tell there's also a severe mental health crisis.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 01:17:16 AM by Martin Gisser »

wili

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #566 on: October 31, 2017, 02:10:57 AM »
One of the top lobbyists of Democrats for corporate powers that be, Tony Podesta, just resigned from the lobbying firm he created, caught in the web of connections revealed in the Manafort scandal.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/oct/30/tony-podesta-democrats-trump-russia-mueller
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TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #567 on: October 31, 2017, 02:20:00 AM »
Martin
Your "Christians fundamentalists worshipping Mammon and hating socialism." is wonderfully descriptive of a large demographic of North Americans. I wish I could say the problem was confined to the USofA, but that would be denying some of Canada's recent history.

I'm unconvinced that an induced "demographic shift" is a fitting response, but neither Darwinian selection, education, or ridicule seems to have slowed the growth of their movement(s).

Those who manipulate them for personal gain or power are beneath contempt. The "true believers" may be beyond redemption, but they're not confined beyond your borders.

Welcome to the New Millennia
Terry






Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #568 on: October 31, 2017, 03:48:57 AM »
Or maybe we should skip to Joe Manchin (there's a Justice Democrat primarying him). What do you think, Rob? Corporate Democrat?

Big time industry advocate.
I used my own litmus test and looked up which Democrats voted for expediting the Keystone XL :
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/01/here-are-the-9-senate-democrats-who-voted-for-keystone/443787/

1. Michael Bennet, Colo.

2. Thomas Carper, Del.

3. Robert Casey, Pa.

4. Joe Donnelly, Ind.

5. Heidi Heitkamp, N.D.

6. Joe Manchin, W. Va.

7. Claire McCaskill, Mo.

8. Jon Tester, Mont.

9. Mark Warner, Va.

So there you go. That's what my list looks like.
Note there are only 9 on this list.
And there is no proof that they voted in a quid-pro-quo after industry funding of their campaign.
Maybe they or their constituents simply see the world through different eyes.

But the issue is that ALL Republicans also voted for Keystone XL.
ALL 53 of them.

You can piss at Democrats until the cows come home, but the real problem are the Republicans.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 04:02:27 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #569 on: October 31, 2017, 08:01:44 AM »
Rob, thanks for agreeing with me that at least one Democrat actually fits the definition of Corporate Democrat. So, it's possible that they exist.

You can piss at Democrats until the cows come home, but the real problem are the Republicans.

No, the problem is that there isn't an alternative to the Republicans, because the Democratic Party offers Republican Lite while still presenting itself as the 'party of the people' (Thomas Frank explains that it stopped being that decades ago, and why). Both Republicans and Corporate Democrats serve the elites, and that's exactly how it's perceived by a lot of people. Which is why Trump first kicked the GOP in the nutsack and then got a chance at taking the White House, because the (cheating) Corporate Democrats put the most unpopular candidate they could pick to run against him.

So, I'm pissing on Corporate Democrats rather than the Democratic Party itself. We have to make that distinction, if only to take the wind out of the sails of Republican smears and propaganda.

As for your list, voting records are just one part of the evidence (remember, I had four points). I mean, all of the Democrats (except one, guess who) voted for a 2018 defense bill of 700 billion (100 billion more than for 2017, and 37 billion more than idiot Trump asked for!). Even Elisabeth Warren voted for it. Is she a Corporate Democrat war monger beholden to the military-industrial complex? I don't think so. In fact, I'm certain she isn't. But some are.

So, to be sure the people on your list are serving the interests of donors rather than their constituents, we'd also have to look at their campaign contributions, the kinds of jobs they've had before or after office, speeches they have given where, and how they present themselves in the media. What are they actually saying? Is it just lip service, some hollow commonplaces and platitudes?

We can further investigate the people on your list, but I think it'd be more interesting to look directly at leadership, like Pelosi and Schumer, and the DNC.

Even better would be to agree in principle that Corporate Democrats are a huge liability to the Democratic Party (one of the main reasons Trump is in office right now), that people like Thomas Frank, Noam Chomsky and Naomi Klein (to name a few) have it largely right when they discuss the history and psychology behind the takeover of the Democratic Party. Because then we can direct our energy at supporting initiatives that offer an alternative to both Republicans and Corporate Democrats. They sure need it, as they won't get any attention/free advertising from the mainstream media (owned by the donors of the GOP and Corporate Democrats).
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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #570 on: October 31, 2017, 08:12:49 AM »
(E.g. "Trump's E.P.A. is fine with children eating food tainted by a pesticide derived from a nerve gas." https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/10/28/opinion/sunday/chlorpyrifos-dow-environmental-protection-agency.html )

And they love it. Poll numbers (still above 30% approval!) are telling that Trump voters don't regret. And will never.

My demographic shift is luckily helped by the opioid crisis, which mainly affects the elderly Crazy White Man. They love Trump's "solution" a la Nancy Reagan: "Just say no!". So easy. It took a Trump to find this. But not working -- and the Trumplins don't want to hear an honest answer why.

Alas those poll numbers actually tell there's also a severe mental health crisis.

I absolutely agree with you, Martin. Let there be no doubt about it that Trump has won the presidency with carefully crafted lies. I think that a part of his voters, perhaps even large, knew this, but didn't care. Like I said, there wasn't an alternative. People perceived Hillary Clinton as the epitome of their grievances. And rightly so, for a large part at least, in my opinion. Like Michael Moore has said: Most of this charade was fuelled by a desire to give the Establishment a big FU finger.

The question is, how many people are like climate deniers and just not willing to learn or change their (feeble and/or fundamentalist) minds, and how many would vote differently if presented with a real alternative (not just pretty words that feel good)?

I'm not a huge fan of Kyle Kulinski, because of his style, but most of the time he is an astute political commentator and he has this to say about it:

« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 09:23:04 AM by Neven »
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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #571 on: October 31, 2017, 10:18:13 AM »
And let us not forget that Democratic voters have flaws that are similar to those of Republican voters, in that it is easy to sway them with propaganda.

Take for instance that thing we have just discussed in this thread as well: George W. Bush now being viewed much more favourably, even by Democrats, because Trump is so unapologetically vulgar. Not only is it insane, but it's actual detrimental from a political strategy viewpoint as well. Instead of tying the Republicans to Trump - especially the monsters - they are now being portrayed as reasonable people that aren't nearly as bad as Trump (when in some respects they are worse).

Here's a clip from The Young Turks explaining it in more detail:



This is something that is actively being pushed by Corporate Democrats, and people are falling for it just as easily as Republican voters fall for Faux News propaganda. Has anyone noticed how Nancy Pelosi has been making jokes about how she almost misses George Bush and how great it would be if Mitt Romney would be president now?

That's number 3 on my list:

Quote
1. Campaign contributions
2. Voting record
3. Over-all presentation in the media
4. Their positions on single payer health care, free college, bank regulation, minimum wages, money out of politics.

I'm pretty sure that I can come up with examples (sidd already did) that can be classified under 1, 2 and 4. And a lot more for 3. Nancy Pelosi is a 100% Corporate Democrat.

Like pileus (who supports Corporate Democrats because it's the only way to beat Republicans) says: Pelosi needs to be replaced because she is a liability. Never mind that she's corrupt to the bone. But she won't be. Why? Because as she says herself: She is the biggest fundraiser.

And so she can cosy up to neocons and spout hollow phrases as if there's no tomorrow. And lots of Democratic voters are actually agreeing with it and defend her. I just don't get it. Not only is it wrong, it is stupid.
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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #572 on: October 31, 2017, 12:04:18 PM »
I was looking at something else (DAPL), and then this name from your list popped up (of people who voted in favour of Keystone XL):


5. Heidi Heitkamp, N.D.

This senator released a statement "criticizing violent protests against pipeline":

Quote
Any protesters should be able to exercise their First Amendment right lawfully and peacefully, but many of the actions we have seen over the past several weeks are not those of lawful protesters and they pose serious safety concerns to other protesters -- especially as the temperatures drop -- and law enforcement officers, as well as to children, residents, and workers trying to live their lives in their communities.

That's just propaganda, bashing the hippies/lefties/enviros. Republicans doing that is one thing, Democrats doing it is quite another. But this lady seems to love pipelines a bit too much to be a real Democrat. She seems to be a Corporate Democrat, crossing off 2 of 4 points on my list (namely 2 and 3):

Quote
1. Campaign contributions
2. Voting record
3. Over-all presentation in the media
4. Their positions on single payer health care, free college, bank regulation, minimum wages, money out of politics.

So, how about 1? According to OpenSecrets, the oil & gas industry is high on the list. I don't know how that stacks up against other senators, and maybe it's inevitable for a politician from North Dakota. But that's a weak argument.

As for 4, there's this from Wikipedia:

Quote
Heitkamp is considered a moderate Democrat.[25] The National Journal has given her a composite rating of 53% liberal and 47% conservative.[26] CrowdPac, which rates politicians based on donations they receive and give, gave Heitkamp a score of 5.7L, with 10L being the most liberal and 10C being the most conservative.[27] The Americans for Democratic Action gave Heitkamp a 60% liberal rating in 2015.[28] The American Conservative Union gives her a lifetime 13.67% conservative.[29] According to FiveThirtyEight, as of October 2017, Heitkamp had voted in line with President Donald Trump's positions 51% of the time.[30]

Looks like a duck to me.
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budmantis

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #573 on: October 31, 2017, 02:32:23 PM »
You can do whatever you like Terry, but blaming Obama for not enacting single payer is illogical. Knowing the landscape in Congress,  What could he have done to bring single payer to fruition?

Talk about how important it is (especially for those millions of people who can't afford health care), how almost every developed country in the world has a single payer health care system, and how the Republicans are fighting it for their corporate donors (Big Pharma and insurance industry who make huge profits off of the system in place). That way you set them up to pay a political price for their criminal behaviour, even if you can't push it through. At the same time you tie them to the oligarchy, shooting their fake populist ploy out of the water.

But Obama and other Corporate Democrats can't do that, because they too are beholden to special interests! That's why they cosy up to neocons now and legitimize Republicans instead of tying them to trump at every turn, so he takes them down with him.

God, I wish I was American. There's so little I can do from here, even though my child will be affected by what happens in that crazy US of A.

Neven, we agree on a lot of these points but the outcome on healthcare would not have changed no matter how much talking and informing was done. People want to hear their own beliefs reinforced and the demographics that Terry alluded to in reply #567 resulted in a power shift as a result of the 2010 elections, because the ACA was enacted. For Obama's first two years in office, the democrats had a sizable majority in both houses of congress and in order to get all democrats on board, a lot of compromises had to be made.

As flawed as the ACA is, there was a groundswell of opposition against it, resulting in the Tea Party and many court challenges. Also the republicans have been trying for seven years to abolish it and have failed (so far). Speaking for my wife and I, we both benefitted from the ACA. I'm on Medicare now (thank god!), but my wife will hopefully continue to be insured for the next two years on the ACA plans.

So you want to be an American? If it wasn't so cold, I'd move to Canada. Most conservatives and Christian fundamentalists are still deluded with the concept of "American exceptionalism" and that the USA is the "greatest" country in the world. I'm sure the Romans felt the same way and look what happened to them! I look forward to the Canadians returning to Florida. I find Canadians and Europeans to be much easier to talk to and don't have that chip on their shoulder. A significant minority (majority?) of Americans are paranoid. I would stay in Austria if I were you!

BudM
« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 08:18:22 PM by budmantis »

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #574 on: November 01, 2017, 04:52:46 AM »
Some sense out of Ohio democratic party:

" We don’t spend a lot of time around here talking about Vladimir Putin ..."

" It’s still the economy, stupid."

"During a three-hour program, in a dark ballroom on a frigid night, no one referenced the Russia investigation."

"The lion’s share of the conversation focused on the economy, health care and the opioid epidemic."

"Ohioans think people on the coasts and in Washington look down on them, and that’s far too often the case …"

"Obama basically lost the red part of Ohio 60 to 40. Hillary Clinton lost it 73-27. You can’t win Ohio with that margin of loss, ..."

" It means we all need to sound as much as possible like Sherrod Brown sounds. He’s an economic populist. "

Go, go, go Sherrod. Read all about it:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/daily-202/2017/10/30/daily-202-ohio-democrats-say-talking-about-mueller-s-probe-is-not-the-way-to-win-in-2018/59f6932230fb0468e7653e5a/

sidd

Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #575 on: November 01, 2017, 09:13:33 AM »
"Obama basically lost the red part of Ohio 60 to 40. Hillary Clinton lost it 73-27. You can’t win Ohio with that margin of loss, ..."

I hate it when people twist the truth.
Obama won both the popular vote and the electoral vote in Ohio. Both in 2008 and in 2012 :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_in_Ohio,_2012
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_in_Ohio,_2008

Also, of course you don't win the 2018 election by "talking about the Mueller investigation".
And Pepper realizes that :

Quote
“Let me just put it this way: We don’t spend a lot of time around here talking about Vladimir Putin and James Comey,” David Pepper said in an interview here Sunday. “I’m as frustrated as anyone by what Comey did and that Putin interfered, and Congress should get to the bottom of that, but if that’s what we talk about … we will lose again.”


The Mueller investigation is running its own course. And it should.

Democrats can win again, but need somebody like Obama.
And somebody like Obama you don't find every day.

Personally, I think that Trump just needs to make stuff REALLY bad.
Something like repealing the ACA so that it really hurts people.
Or increasing taxes for the middle class.

Once that happens, people will turn back to the Democrats.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2017, 09:55:13 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #576 on: November 01, 2017, 09:57:06 AM »

I hate it when people twist the truth.
Obama won both the popular vote and the electoral vote in Ohio. Both in 2008 and in 2012 :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_in_Ohio,_2012
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_in_Ohio,_2008

And what were the numbers for the 'red part of Ohio'?
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Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #577 on: November 01, 2017, 10:22:55 AM »
And what were the numbers for the 'red part of Ohio'?

Who cares ? That's twisting the truth.
Ohio is Ohio, and Obama won it fair and square. Two times.
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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #578 on: November 01, 2017, 10:33:26 AM »
A big problem is that the current Congress is lowering taxes for the rich, but not really increasing taxes for the middle class.
That way they avoid causing a revolt, but at the same time increasing the deficit, which will hurt working class people in the long run but not immediately.

Sneaky Republicans.
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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #579 on: November 01, 2017, 02:31:44 PM »
Sneaky Republicans AND Corporate Democrats.
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SteveMDFP

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #580 on: November 01, 2017, 02:51:06 PM »
Joseph Manchin III was also in favor of Trump's nomination of Neil Gorsuch to the Supreme Court, one of Susan A.'s bug-a-boo's if I recall correctly.


How does Joe's primary challenger sit with Susan?


Terry

Manchin is a Democrat from very red WVa.  If the Democrat running in a general election doesn't support coal and *some* conservatives stances, he will inevitably lose to the Republican candidate.  Had that happened in the last election to the Senate, ObamaCare would have been repealed.  That would have been far worse for millions of people than any other single measure we discuss here.

Manchin's vote for Gorsuch was strategically wise.  His vote made exactly zero difference in the outcome, but it helped ensure he'll be present in the future to cast votes that actually count.

Manchin is an asset to progressive change, not a detriment.

TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #581 on: November 01, 2017, 04:20:20 PM »

Manchin is an asset to progressive change, not a detriment.


An asset you say, yet how many of these assets can we afford?
I recognize your point, that a "D" beats an "R", even when the D votes with the R's. I'm sure you recognize that given a certain percentage of these very red "D"'s, the "R"'s agenda wins every vote.
What I fear is that we soon reach the point when even a democratically dominated house will pass republican sponsored bills, and vote against democratic proposals.


If we give Manchin a pass, where do we draw the line?
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AbruptSLR

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #582 on: November 01, 2017, 08:20:10 PM »
Biden makes the case that 'work' is not a 'four-letter word'; as he lays the groundwork for a 2020 presidential platform including anti-populism. "Run, Joe, Run":

Title: "Joe Biden’s Platform for 2020: Anti-Populism"

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/09/23/joe-biden-president-2020-anti-populism-215638

Extract: "By criticizing the views of both Berniecrats and Trumpites, Biden is positioning himself as the antidote to populism in all its forms and flavors.

Biden criticized the “Silicon Valley executives” who have championed universal basic income for “selling American workers short” and undermining the “dignity” of work. He recoiled at rhetoric, often wielded by Senator Bernie Sanders and his acolytes, that demonizes corporations (“Some want to single out big corporations for all the blame. … But consumers, workers, and leaders have the power to hold every corporation to a higher standard, not simply cast business as the enemy.”) And he cut against the prevailing sentiment among Trump-friendly working-class whites that not everyone should go to college: “Cognitive capacity—as opposed to brawn—continues to become a surer path to climb that ladder into the middle class.”

In the emerging 2020 field, most leading Democratic lights are scrambling to establish populist cred. Others with records that cut against populist grain will have major biographical obstacles to overcome.

But Biden? Amtrak Joe? The President of Vice? The man has oozed working-class charm since he hustled his way into the Senate at age 30.

In 2015, steelworkers at a Labor Day parade were chanting, “Run, Joe, Run!”"
« Last Edit: November 01, 2017, 08:27:03 PM by AbruptSLR »
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AbruptSLR

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #583 on: November 01, 2017, 08:42:43 PM »
Biden makes the case that 'work' is not a 'four-letter word'; as he lays the groundwork for a 2020 presidential platform including anti-populism.

In the linked article, the Human Rights Watch organization discusses the dangers of various movements with demagogues that say that they represent the 'pure people' fighting the 'corrupt elite'.

Title: "The Dangerous Rise of Populism"

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2017/country-chapters/dangerous-rise-of-populism
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TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #584 on: November 01, 2017, 09:06:39 PM »
Did Joe's baby boy ever get back from Ukraine? Did they let him bring home the bacon?


Lets run Hunter for President too. Biden vs Biden, the "anti-populist" against the "unpopular". They could run with their respective Kerry's as VP's and save a fortune on signage after the primary.
Biden & Kerry in 2020 - it even rhymes. (sort of)


Terry




Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #585 on: November 01, 2017, 09:13:32 PM »
Manchin is a Democrat from very red WVa.  If the Democrat running in a general election doesn't support coal and *some* conservatives stances, he will inevitably lose to the Republican candidate.

Isn't this perhaps an example of successful Republican propaganda? And isn't it extremely convenient for Corporate Democrats to have an excuse for acting like Republicans? Everyone is benefiting here, except for the American people. Corporate Democrats get to stuff their pockets with fossil fuel cash, and Republicans then get to do even more extreme right-wing stuff, stuffing their pockets along the way as well.

Here's an example of how you can set that propaganda on its head in West Virginia (if you don't want to watch the whole thing, skip to the parts where Sanders talks, like here):



If you have a caricature of the people in West Virginia in your mind (dumb deplorables who will always vote Republican), and act accordingly, you will not change anything. If you consider these people for what they are, most of them honest, hard-working, but hurting financially because their jobs are disappearing, etc, and you give them a real alternative, not just hollow words and propaganda, they will vote for you.

Watch the video, ditch the fear-induced and cowardly mindset, and support someone like Paula Jean Swearengin, a Justice Democrat who will try and beat Manchin.

PS Joe Biden is a Corporate Democrat, who will try to smear Sanders as a 'populist' and probably a 'Kremlin puppet' as well, if that doesn't work. Instead of tying Trump to the Republicans, the Corporate Democrats will try to tie Trump to Sanders. Mark my words. Nothing is beneath them.
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AbruptSLR

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #586 on: November 01, 2017, 09:28:25 PM »
Biden & Kerry in 2020 - it even rhymes. (sort of)

"Run, Joe, Run" sounds better.
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AbruptSLR

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #587 on: November 01, 2017, 09:46:20 PM »
PS Joe Biden is a Corporate Democrat, who will try to smear Sanders as a 'populist' and probably a 'Kremlin puppet' as well, if that doesn't work.

Biden may be a Corporate Democrat, but the linked article makes the case that left-wing populism is not a silver bullet to solve the Democrat's problems:

Title: "No easy answers: why left-wing economics is not the answer to right-wing populism"

https://www.vox.com/world/2017/3/13/14698812/bernie-trump-corbyn-left-wing-populism

Extract: "“[It’s] a kind of liberal myth,” Pippa Norris, a Harvard political scientist who studies populism in the United States and Europe, says of the Sanders analysis. “[Liberals] want to have a reason why people are supporting populist parties when their values are so clearly against progressive values in terms of misogyny, sexism, racism.”

The problem is that a lot of data suggests that countries with more robust welfare states tend to have stronger far-right movements. Providing white voters with higher levels of economic security does not tamp down their anxieties about race and immigration — or, more precisely, it doesn’t do it powerfully enough. For some, it frees them to worry less about what it’s in their wallet and more about who may be moving into their neighborhoods or competing with them for jobs.

Left-wing politicians and writers insist that populist policies would win back disenchanted voters. In Britain, the exact opposite has happened.

The uncomfortable truth is that America’s lack of a European-style welfare state hurts a lot of white Americans. But a large number of white voters believe that social spending programs mostly benefit nonwhites. As such, they oppose them with far more fervor than any similar voting bloc in Europe.

In this context, tacking to the left on economics won't give Democrats a silver bullet to use against the racial resentment powering Trump's success. It could actually wind up giving Trump an even bigger gun. If Democrats really want to stop right-wing populists like Trump, they need a strategy that blunts the true drivers of their appeal — and that means focusing on more than economics."
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sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #588 on: November 01, 2017, 09:48:29 PM »
The point that the ohio democrats are trying to make is that while democrats might win ohio while losing rural ohio by 60-40, they cannot win ohio while losing rural ohio by 73-27

In fact the article states exactly that.

I would, of course like to see candidates who can win both rural and urban ohio. Not impossible, but quite difficult.

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #589 on: November 01, 2017, 10:26:54 PM »
The Democrats need to focus on winning the culture wars to beat Trump in 2020:

Title: "Trump’s culture wars are a bore"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp/2017/10/26/trumps-culture-wars-are-a-bore/?utm_term=.fee291ff0c5e

Extract: "President Trump knew how to ride to the White House on a wave of white resentment, evangelical victimhood and Fox News watchers’ obsession with foreigners. His fixation on cultural and racial pot-stirring has continued, of course, with a wink to neo-Nazis in Charlottesville, pandering to “values voters” (You can say “Merry Christmas”!), attacks on the hated media (Pull their license!) and most recently, the NFL kneeling brouhaha. After you have played this game for nine months, however, the audience … er … electorate may be getting bored.

Trump used to “win” these battles all the time, using them to distract from his own performance and keep his base in a state of hysteria. Now, he has to resort to moldy, debunked scandals about Hillary Clinton. Gosh, if Trump can’t play the culture wars successfully any longer, Fox News may run out of material. But, heck, there’s always the one about Clinton and the uranium."
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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #590 on: November 01, 2017, 10:47:20 PM »
But, heck, there’s always the one about Clinton and the uranium."

Of course, they'll ride that one out forever, because no one is willing to own it and have the discussion we are having here. The idea is that we must not discuss the corruption of Corporate Democrats and how that is hurting the American people, because then it will look as if Fox was right. People have almost said this literally in this thread.

Fox adds and twists and has evil motives, but there is something there, and in the long run it's always better to own something than to let it fester. Until you do, Trump and the Republicans will keep using it, and Corporate Democrats will, of course, stay quiet or dodge and weave.

Own it. Acknowledge the deep-rooted problem of the Democratic Party: Corporate Democrats.

And no, don't focus on winning the culture wars. That's all smoke. Win the social-economic war. Ditch the Corporate Democrats first.
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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #591 on: November 02, 2017, 01:14:19 AM »
Neven:

Could you go ahead and list the "corporate democrats" so I/we know specifically who you are talking about?  Let's start with the Senate since that is a smaller absolute number.  I'll start your list...(you can delete them if they aren't "corporate democrats"):

1.  Cory Booker
2.  Joe Manchin
3.
4.
etc

All of us generalize from time-to-time....but it's also important to get specific and I'm curious about who specifically you want to get out of office in the Senate on the Democrat side.

Thanks.....Buddy

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sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #592 on: November 02, 2017, 01:20:15 AM »
After another long run thru rural trumplandia in OH and PA, there is one issue i think really has begin to resonate. If the democrats take it up it will help them immensely. That issue is ending the forever wars. All these little towns have long been gutted by the wars; it is their sons and daughters who, ensnared by the poverty draft, march away to death and maiming in foreign lands. A candidate who championed bringing the kids home would not lack for support. I went through three towns where large defense contractors were the major employer, and in every one the sentiment was the same: If bringing our children home means i lose my job, it's not even a question: bring the kids home. This sentiment existed for some time but i think it has come to the forefront after the Niger incident.

Unfortunately, their representatives are beholden to those very large defense contractors. I see no way out of that except crowdfunding and primarying the warmongers.

sidd

Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #593 on: November 02, 2017, 06:44:35 AM »
Ditch the Corporate Democrats first.

Neven, you are so focussed on the trees (the "Corporate Democrats") that you forget the forest (The Republicans). My Keystone XL litmus test identified only 9 Democrats, but exposed 53 Republicans.

The bigger issue here I think is the role of right-wing propaganda.
That's why we have half of the legislature in the hands of "Corporate Republicans" (that's all of them), selling an agenda that is verifiably in favor of Corporate America, and verifiably against the people.
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #594 on: November 02, 2017, 08:12:46 AM »
After another long run thru rural trumplandia in OH and PA, there is one issue i think really has begin to resonate. If the democrats take it up it will help them immensely. That issue is ending the forever wars. All these little towns have long been gutted by the wars; it is their sons and daughters who, ensnared by the poverty draft, march away to death and maiming in foreign lands. A candidate who championed bringing the kids home would not lack for support. I went through three towns where large defense contractors were the major employer, and in every one the sentiment was the same: If bringing our children home means i lose my job, it's not even a question: bring the kids home. This sentiment existed for some time but i think it has come to the forefront after the Niger incident.

Unfortunately, their representatives are beholden to those very large defense contractors. I see no way out of that except crowdfunding and primarying the warmongers.

sidd


sidd
There are many issues that the Democrats could ride to victory. Single payer is forefront on my mind, but "bring our boys home" would also win the day.
The problem is, as you note, that more and more Democrats can't run on these issues because of their Corporate donors. When Democrats can't run on these popular, traditionally democratic issues, they lose.
2018 is rushing at us. If we can't win a slew of state races, the gerrymandering will kill any hopes we may have for 2020.
I've advocated pledging our candidates to not taking donations from one particular sector for one electoral cycle. I'd proposed health care, but the MIC would suit my purposes just as well.
Our candidates would then be free to run against foreign entanglements, lower military outlays and to promise to bring the boys home.
I believe that we'd win running that campaign, and thereafter Democratic candidates would be loath to take any money that restricted their ability to campaign on traditional democratic issues.
Terry

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #595 on: November 02, 2017, 01:08:42 PM »
Neven, you are so focussed on the trees (the "Corporate Democrats") that you forget the forest (The Republicans). My Keystone XL litmus test identified only 9 Democrats, but exposed 53 Republicans.

At least we agree that the fertile soil on which all these trees are growing, is (corporate) money in politics. We also agree that the Republican Party is thoroughly corrupt (although the GOP has always been the party of the business class, whereas the Democratic Party used to be the party of the people and the unions). But the reason that the Democratic Party has been wiped out, isn't because of the Republican Party, but because it simply isn't the party of the people anymore. The Republicans just capitalize on this fact. In other words, the Democratic Party is itself responsible for the success of Republican propaganda.

If you want to solve a problem (corruption due to money in politics), you need to understand this problem first. If you have a simplistic view (it's the Republicans!), you are not going to solve the problem. That's why I posted some of the interviews with Thomas Frank, who explains the history and psychology of the problem.

If you fail to understand this or simply refuse to even look at it ('he's furthering Trump's agenda', 'he's a Putin puppet'), you will continue to support the very thing that is causing the problem, or at the very least making structural solutions impossible: Corporate Democrats.

Already back in 1952, president Harry S. Truman explained what the problem is when Democrats shift to the right:

Quote
When the Democratic candidate allows himself to be put on the defensive and starts apologizing for the New Deal and the fair Deal, and says he really doesn’t believe in them, he is sure to lose. The people don’t want a phony Democrat. If it’s a choice between a genuine Republican, and a Republican in Democratic clothing, the people will choose the genuine article, every time; that is, they will take a Republican before they will a phony Democrat, and I don’t want any phony Democratic candidates.
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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #596 on: November 02, 2017, 01:23:22 PM »
Neven:

Could you go ahead and list the "corporate democrats" so I/we know specifically who you are talking about?  Let's start with the Senate since that is a smaller absolute number.  I'll start your list...(you can delete them if they aren't "corporate democrats"):

1.  Cory Booker
2.  Joe Manchin
3.
4.
etc

All of us generalize from time-to-time....but it's also important to get specific and I'm curious about who specifically you want to get out of office in the Senate on the Democrat side.

Buddy, before agreeing on some sort of list, I would like to see us agree on why this is necessary. I feel like not everyone is on the same page, but only pileus has said so directly and explained why: You need Corporate Democrats (ie lots of corporate money) to beat the Republicans, because incremental change is the best we can get.

As for the list itself, I have a narrow view because I'm not American. I have given a handful criteria that can help determine whether a Democratic politician is more interested in stuffing his own pockets than truly help the hurting American middle class and poor. That doesn't mean that everyone who fulfills some or all of these criteria needs to be chased off covered in tar and feathers. But they need to be made clear that they need to change their tune. It's the signal that is important right now, which is why as many people as possible need to get on board (everyone on this Forum, for instance  ;) ).

The names of senators I can come up with from what I've seen from them from here, are Nancy Pelosi, Cory Booker and Dianne Feinstein. Rob has just one litmus test: Keystone XL. But I think one also needs to look at legislature that affects Big Pharma, Big Agri, the MIC, the Deep State, Wall Street and Silicon Valley.

I'm willing to name more names, but I can't do it alone. If we agree on the basics, we can do it together. If we don't agree on the basics, we need to debate that some more. You say you're an independent, so it shouldn't be hard for you to criticize the Democratic Party.
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Buddy

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #597 on: November 02, 2017, 02:10:50 PM »
This isn't an issue I am going to spend time on.  This is your war.....not mine.  I'm busy with trying....in a small way....to help save democracy in the US from the most corrupt and dangerous administration in US history that I am aware of. 

But if YOU and others want to fight this"war" against "corporate democrats".....then I would HOPE that you can identify who you are fighting against.  Otherwise.....you are fighting with the wind.

As an Independent.....I have no problem fighting against Democrats OR Republicans.  In fact....I ALWAYS encourage members of BOTH parties who live in "open primary states" (about half of the states are "open primary" states where you can choose to vote on either ballot in the primary...either Republican or Democrat....REGARDLESS of your party affiliation).  In a "closed primary" state....you can only vote the ballot of your registered party in the primary.  Party designation is an unhealthy thing because it gives you a psychological BIAS before even looking at the facts.

Lobbyists control many of the politicians here in the US.  I am much more concerned about policies that cut off...or at least reduce.....that flow of money from lobbyists and large doners.  For instance....repealing Citizens United....or reducing amounts of money that can be contributed in the first place.  In other words.....cutting off the oxygen that the lobbyists are giving to either Republicans or Democrats (corporate Republicans AND corporate Democrats...using your lingo).

I always "triage" issues.  And right now....there is no bigger issue than trying to get Trump out of office.  And the second biggest issue....is exposing FOX News....because they have managed to brainwash their viewers for 20+ years on several issues (guns, global warming, Christianity, freedom of speech, etc).

So if you are going to wage this jihad against "corporate democrats" (just as I wage my jihad against FOX News)....you should be able to explain WHO you are fighting....and why.  Just as I should explain who I am fighting and why (Sean Hannity, Jeanine Pirro, Lou Dobbs, etc...exposing their lies on global warming, Trump, gun regulation, etc).






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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #598 on: November 02, 2017, 08:41:19 PM »
Cory Booker is an interesting case. He backed off from pharma donations for a bit, after the last furore, lets see if he continues. At least the signal got thru to him. He will bear watching.

sidd

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #599 on: November 02, 2017, 09:26:23 PM »
Holy shit. Donna Brazile throws Hilary and Wasserman-Schulz under the bus. How the corporate democrats play the game:

“That victory fund was supposed to be for whoever was the nominee, and the state party races. You’re telling me that Hillary has been controlling it since before she got the nomination?”

"The campaign had the DNC on life support, giving it money every month to meet its basic expenses, while the campaign was using the party as a fund-raising clearinghouse. Under FEC law, an individual can contribute a maximum of $2,700 directly to a presidential campaign. But the limits are much higher for contributions to state parties and a party’s national committee.

Individuals who had maxed out their $2,700 contribution limit to the campaign could write an additional check for $353,400 to the Hillary Victory Fund—that figure represented $10,000 to each of the 32 states’ parties who were part of the Victory Fund agreement—$320,000—and $33,400 to the DNC. The money would be deposited in the states first, and transferred to the DNC shortly after that. Money in the battleground states usually stayed in that state, but all the other states funneled that money directly to the DNC, which quickly transferred the money to Brooklyn."

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/11/02/clinton-brazile-hacks-2016-215774

http://www.boomantribune.com/?op=displaystory;sid=2017/11/2/114345/918

sidd