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Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #800 on: February 12, 2018, 05:33:33 AM »
Terry, you are grasping at straws.

Just respond to my assertions :

Quote
I fail to see how the Welfare Reform Act of 1996 (22 years and three administrations ago) has anything to do with support for Trump.

And by the way, Dianne Feinstein (as well as about half the Democrats) voted against the measure.

My political "affiliation" ? I like Bernie Sanders more than any other US politician.
How about you ? Who is your favorite US politician ?
And why are you pissing on Democrats ?
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #801 on: February 12, 2018, 11:13:22 AM »
My political "affiliation" ? I like Bernie Sanders more than any other US politician.

You can't have it both ways, Rob. So, what is it, the things Sanders stands for or the Third Way/neoliberalism/globalism?

Here's some more articles that explain the dichotomy between both:

Donald Trump's success is built on the ruins of the Third Way

Quote
Donald Trump paid close attention to the Bernie Sanders primary campaign, as did the increasingly alarmed leadership of the Democratic Party. The DNC, watching Bernie turn out new voters across the rustbelt and the Midwest, chose to neutralise the ageing firebrand they held responsible. Once they’d done so, the way was clear for Trump to borrow from Sanders’ speeches and turn his arguments against Clinton. The presidency was lost in Iowa, Ohio, Maine, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, North Carolina, and Florida, all of which swung from Democrat to Republican, in most cases with a similar or reduced turnout from 2012 (Florida had a much higher turnout). Of those states, Bernie had won Wisconsin’s primary and Maine’s caucus. In elevating the pied pipers of the right, while attacking the “unrealistic” demands of the left, the Democratic Party leadership created the conditions for its own defeat.
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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #802 on: February 12, 2018, 11:43:44 AM »
The linked article discusses weaknesses of populist movements (their simplistic 'solutions' do not help them to ".. navigate a complex reality that requires serious, long-term planning, and compromise") & focuses on lessons learned from the recent failed populist movement in Greece.  Hopefully, mainstream Democrats in the USA can be revitalized by the resist Trump movement to find better answers to complex questions:

Title: "What democracies can learn from Greece's failed populist experiment"

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/05/greece-populism-syriza-trump-imf-eurozone/525369/

Yes, the American people can't have single payer health care, or free college, or a minimum wage, or a sane military budget, like so many nations in the world, many of them in much poorer countries. These are all pie in the sky ideas!

You would think this off-topic to the discussion at hand, but AbruptSLR proves how effective Third Way propaganda has been and still is. The idea is this: Alt-right = alt-left = progressives = Bernie Sanders. That's the strategy, and social media moguls are already implementing it by shunning progressive voices.

Unfortunately it's a losing strategy, but Third Way/neoliberal/Corporate Democrats will make sure everybody loses. Because being as conservative as they are, they rather have the GOP win than true leftists.

The DLC Lives: "Third Way" Democrats Are Trying to Push the Party Rightward

Quote
At the height of its power the DLC was the dominant force in the party, boasting President Bill Clinton and UK Prime Minister Tony Blair as its acolytes. But like Bell's weak narcotics, the DLC, which supported the Iraq War and received money from the likes of the Koch Brothers, soon became a tainted brand. Long before 2011, when the organization dissolved, the DLC label hung around politicians like a scarlet letter. Even President Obama publicly distanced himself from the organization in 2004 as he ascended as a national figure.

So, eager to maintain power and influence, New Democrats did what Stringer Bell ended up doing. They changed the name.

"I don't think the people who ran the DLC ever really left," said Norman Solomon, a coordinator for RootsAction, in an interview with Truthout. "It is the same product, different name." Indeed, the DLC agenda is carried out today by think tanks like the Progressive Policy Institute (PPI) and Third Way, which push the same regressive agenda but under different labels, and with less public scrutiny. As the Boston Globe described in 2014, Third Way usually works "behind the scenes -- in the White House, the corridors of Congress, and the office suites of lobbying firms in downtown Washington."

Now, as Democrats face an existential crisis in the aftermath of the election of Donald Trump, these fundamentally conservative organizations, armed with millions in corporate donations, are working with a renewed aggressiveness in the public sphere. They are attempting to convince the party to shun its base and further embrace the so-called "vital center," and the corporatism that has long defined these groups.

What America needs, what the world needs, is a Green New Deal. And that's the last thing Third Way/Corporate Democrats (like Feinstein, Pelosi and Schumer) want. They want BAU and are willing to sacrifice the young for it.
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sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #803 on: February 12, 2018, 09:24:28 PM »
Thanks for the New Statesman article. Two points jumped out at me:

1) "The DNC, watching Bernie turn out new voters across the rustbelt and the Midwest, chose to neutralise the ageing firebrand they held responsible. Once they’d done so, the way was clear for Trump to borrow from Sanders’ speeches and turn his arguments against Clinton ...

" ... he [Sanders] was then fated to stump for Hillary in the electoral wasteland that remained, while Trump stole his best lines."

2) "Democratic Party discipline was its undoing, and Republican Party chaos helped Trump to sweep into power."

That second point is a key. We may be seeing the demise of both parties.

sidd

AbruptSLR

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #804 on: February 12, 2018, 09:36:47 PM »
What America needs, what the world needs, is a Green New Deal. And that's the last thing Third Way/Corporate Democrats (like Feinstein, Pelosi and Schumer) want. They want BAU and are willing to sacrifice the young for it.

Nancy Pelosi has a clear road map to become the Speaker of the House following the midterm elections.  Hopefully, she can then work with Perez & Ellison to keep pushing for a strong climate change agenda

See also:

https://pelosi.house.gov/issues/energy-and-environment

Extract: "There is no time left to deny the reality of climate change, or to turn a blind eye on the impact it is having on our country.  Climate change threatens our economic security, our national security, and our food security, and we must act quickly to reduce carbon pollution and secure a sustainable future for our children and our children’s children.

Our investments in fighting climate change are investments in innovation, in technology, in industry and in jobs. We have made monumental strides in protecting our planet, with more than 160 countries signing the UN Paris Climate Agreement and affirming the belief that clean energy is the future for a better and more resilient environment."

&

https://www.axios.com/the-lefts-civil-war-over-climate-change-249fd353-e73f-4415-a7f8-34e2b9f2e8db.html

Extract: "Democratic political candidates are touting the line, and the bipartisan Conference of Mayors endorsed the concept last year.

“100% renewable energy is a better slogan, but that's not all it is,” said Karthik Ganapathy, a former 350.org staffer who worked for Sanders and now works for Democratic Rep. Keith Ellison of Minnesota. “We need to massively transition off fossil fuels, and dramatically scale up renewable energy. That's the main project. the rest is details that we can figure out on the margins.”

Jesse Jenkins, an energy analyst getting his Ph.D at the Massachusetts Institute for Technology, who backs a more diverse low-carbon approach, said such details shouldn’t be glossed over.

“I hear them, but I don’t think that’s the only way you can build a rallying cry,” Jenkins said. “In a movement, you need to lead and you should build support around viable solutions that work.”"
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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #805 on: February 12, 2018, 09:49:34 PM »
Nancy Pelosi has a clear road map to become the Speaker of the House following the midterm elections.  Hopefully, she can then work with Perez & Ellison to keep pushing for a strong climate change agenda

Hopefully, her donors are fine with it and then we'll have some fantastic Green BAU. You know, without any systemic changes. But single payer health care, or free college, or a minimum wage, or a sane military budget, are all pie in the sky ideas!

Looking forward to more party pictures of the Pelosi and Trump families! Yay for the resistance!
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AbruptSLR

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #806 on: February 12, 2018, 10:08:06 PM »
Hopefully, her donors are fine with it and then we'll have some fantastic Green BAU. You know, without any systemic changes. But single payer health care, or free college, or a minimum wage, or a sane military budget, are all pie in the sky ideas!

As Truman said: "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen"; or as T.R. put it: "The only man who never makes mistakes is the man who never does anything."

Title: "Nancy Pelosi Wants to Take Back the House. But She Faces a More Urgent Test."

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/11/us/politics/nancy-pelosi-democrats-immigration.html

Extract: "Ms. Pelosi’s defenders say the attack ads are to be expected, and a sign of her strength.

“When you’re the leader, you’re going to be bullied and demagogued by the other side,” said Representative Ben Ray Luján of New Mexico, the chairman of the campaign committee charged with electing Democrats to the House. “There’s a reason why national Republican organizations have spent hundreds of millions of dollars attacking the leader throughout the years. And they’re going to continue to.”"
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SteveMDFP

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #807 on: February 12, 2018, 10:09:32 PM »
Nancy Pelosi has a clear road map to become the Speaker of the House following the midterm elections.  Hopefully, she can then work with Perez & Ellison to keep pushing for a strong climate change agenda

Hopefully, her donors are fine with it and then we'll have some fantastic Green BAU. You know, without any systemic changes. But single payer health care, or free college, or a minimum wage, or a sane military budget, are all pie in the sky ideas!

Looking forward to more party pictures of the Pelosi and Trump families! Yay for the resistance!

Neven, you slam Pelosi without recognizing that she's on our side.  She's part of the push for "A Better Deal."
An even better deal
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/an-even-better-deal/2017/08/01/5da6c40e-7633-11e7-8f39-eeb7d3a2d304_story.html?utm_term=.9047b0f39a17

Quote
At the core of the Better Deal is a crackdown on corporate monopolies that represents a genuine shift for the party establishment.
The agenda lays out the problem in no uncertain terms, stating that “growing corporate influence and consolidation has led to reductions in competition, choice for consumers, and bargaining power for workers,” while “extensive concentration of power in the hands of a few corporations hurts wages [and] undermines job growth.” In response, Democrats propose toughening merger standards to prevent harm to consumers and workers, requiring regulators to conduct “frequent” reviews of all mergers after they are completed, and creating “a 21st century Trust Buster” agency to fight anti-competitive behavior. This focus on reducing the power of corporate monopolies has won praise from leading antitrust activists, including Fordham University law professor Zephyr Teachout and New America Foundation fellow Barry Lynn.

In addition, the Better Deal features several policies that progressive activists have long championed: creating 10 million jobs with a mix of infrastructure spending and tax credits, raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour, guaranteeing paid sick and family leave, and lowering the price of prescription drugs by allowing Medicare to negotiate directly with pharmaceutical companies.

You're really firing in the wrong direction.

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #808 on: February 12, 2018, 10:24:32 PM »
Pelosi is on Pelosi's side. As was said about a British politician long ago: In principle,  interests of the country came first, followed by those of the party and finally his own; in practise he was convinced that the first two would be best served by advancing the last.

sidd

AbruptSLR

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #809 on: February 12, 2018, 10:28:00 PM »
If Bernie is the new progressive Teddy Roosevelt, then maybe he can split Trump's new populist GOP.
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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #810 on: February 12, 2018, 11:11:35 PM »
You're really firing in the wrong direction.

There's no sense in discussing this if you don't see how Corporate Democrats are the real problem that in the past two-three decades has led to this mess (ie Trump). It is so clear and logical that it simply baffles me how people refuse to even consider the argument and rather be put to sleep by the hollow and shallow words of Pelosi and her fellow corporate dinosaurs who eat their own young.

A Better Deal... I don't know whether to laugh or cry. What does the Better Deal say about single payer, free tuition, minimum wages, rampant military spending, Wall Street regulation, money in politics? These are the things that most Americans care most about. It's the same neoliberal BS that the Clintons and Obama have pushed with all their might, further greasing the wheels of the machine (tag teaming with the GOP). And these are just the hollow and shallow words. When push comes to shove, they will do nothing their donors don't want them to do. Absolutely nothing. Forget about it.





Let me know when you guys wake up, and in the meantime keep voting/cheering for lesser evil incrementalism (staying in the exact same place, with the exact same neoliberal system, getting fooled every cycle by the oligarch duopoly and their Red/Blue servants). Make sure to properly shout down the young people who will never, ever have it as good as you have it now. Tell them to vote for fake, corrupt, corporate lackeys like 100 million dollar Pelosi.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 11:18:24 PM by Neven »
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Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #811 on: February 13, 2018, 12:13:17 AM »
When push comes to shove, they will do nothing their donors don't want them to do. Absolutely nothing. Forget about it.
Do you have an explanation for Hillary Clinton researching and advocating universal healthcare when she was first lady?

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #812 on: February 13, 2018, 12:33:56 AM »
By 2016 Hilary had arrived at this position:

"Single-payer health care will "never, ever" happen "

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hillary-clinton-single-payer-health-care-will-never-ever-happen/

sidd

SteveMDFP

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #813 on: February 13, 2018, 12:37:38 AM »
You're really firing in the wrong direction.

There's no sense in discussing this if you don't see how Corporate Democrats are the real problem that in the past two-three decades has led to this mess (ie Trump). It is so clear and logical that it simply baffles me how people refuse to even consider the argument and rather be put to sleep by the hollow and shallow words of Pelosi and her fellow corporate dinosaurs who eat their own young.

A Better Deal... I don't know whether to laugh or cry. What does the Better Deal say about single payer, free tuition, minimum wages, rampant military spending, Wall Street regulation, money in politics? These are the things that most Americans care most about. It's the same neoliberal BS that the Clintons and Obama have pushed with all their might, further greasing the wheels of the machine (tag teaming with the GOP). And these are just the hollow and shallow words. When push comes to shove, they will do nothing their donors don't want them to do. Absolutely nothing. Forget about it.

Let me know when you guys wake up, and in the meantime keep voting/cheering for lesser evil incrementalism (staying in the exact same place, with the exact same neoliberal system, getting fooled every cycle by the oligarch duopoly and their Red/Blue servants). Make sure to properly shout down the young people who will never, ever have it as good as you have it now. Tell them to vote for fake, corrupt, corporate lackeys like 100 million dollar Pelosi.

No, there's no sense in discussing this if you cling to ideology rather than examine actual facts about who the enemy is and who our friends are.

That quote I gave listed specific policy positions that you simply assumed Pelosi was against.  She's not, she's on our side.

But there's validity to skepticism about whether a politician's words are matched by action.  When it comes to action, consider that Bernie Sanders has no track record of actual accomplishments -- just words.

When it comes to action, no progressive politician in Congress can hold a candle to Pelosi's record.  For actual facts, real actions, look at her voting record in Congress.  If whe's so bad, which of these actual votes and actual bills she helped bring into law are so dastardly?  Look here:

OnTheIssues:  Nancy Pelosi
http://www.ontheissues.org/CA/Nancy_Pelosi.htm

Dissing actual progressive leaders seems to be another one of those talking points championed by both the alt-left and alt-right.  Demonizing Pelosi is just another part of that pattern.

Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #814 on: February 13, 2018, 01:42:14 AM »
By 2016 Hilary had arrived at this position:

"Single-payer health care will "never, ever" happen "

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hillary-clinton-single-payer-health-care-will-never-ever-happen/

sidd
Guess what, Hillary is a political pragmatist who wants to get things done, not just talk, talk, talk and "thinking big".  Esp. after 2 decades of talk.
Guess why Hillary is toxic meanwhile, just like Al Gore. Kochtopus propaganda. (Plus a little help from their friends, like Jimmy Dore etc.) Obama's baby step towards serious healthcare has infuriated the Kochtopus even more.  Trump has still 40% approval - after one long year of very explicit madness. This shows that 40% of The People is beyond reason, clinically insane with suicidal tendencies. In such an environment nothing serious can be done.

Quoth Hillary:
Quote
"I want you to understand why I am fighting so hard for the Affordable Care Act," [...] "I don't want it repealed, I don't want us to be thrown back into a terrible, terrible national debate. I don't want us to end up in gridlock. People can't wait!"

P.S.: The healthcare talk has cost 1 million lifes in those 2 decades of debate. (50.000/y compared to Canadian health care standards.)
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 02:05:01 AM by Martin Gisser »

TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #815 on: February 13, 2018, 02:09:49 AM »
This June we can celebrate Nancy's first 30 years in Congress, and all the progress we've made since 1987. Her leadership positions in the DNC however date back to 1977 when she became Party Chair of the DNC for Northern California.


Terry
I'm sure that she has the fresh new ideas that we'll need to move forward in these trying times. ;)

SteveMDFP

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #816 on: February 13, 2018, 02:12:31 AM »
This June we can celebrate Nancy's first 30 years in Congress, and all the progress we've made since 1987. Her leadership positions in the DNC however date back to 1977 when she became Party Chair of the DNC for Northern California.


Terry
I'm sure that she has the fresh new ideas that we'll need to move forward in these trying times. ;)

She doesn't have fresh ideas, but the significantly older Noam Chomsky does?  At least be consistent.

TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #817 on: February 13, 2018, 02:43:17 AM »
This June we can celebrate Nancy's first 30 years in Congress, and all the progress we've made since 1987. Her leadership positions in the DNC however date back to 1977 when she became Party Chair of the DNC for Northern California.


Terry
I'm sure that she has the fresh new ideas that we'll need to move forward in these trying times. ;)


She doesn't have fresh ideas, but the significantly older Noam Chomsky does?  At least be consistent.
Noam isn't running for office.
He doesn't present new ideas, rather old truths.
Terry

Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #818 on: February 13, 2018, 04:26:59 AM »
My political "affiliation" ? I like Bernie Sanders more than any other US politician.

You can't have it both ways, Rob. So, what is it, the things Sanders stands for or the Third Way/neoliberalism/globalism?

I see this differently, Neven.

First of all, I don't think the differences between Sanders and (Third Way) Feinstein or Clinton are that great. If you disagree, please compare the voting records and be surprised how much they agree with each other. After all, as Bernie explained over and over again, his ideas are not radical. They are basically standard Social Democratic ideas, and the Third Way share much of these values.

Either way, any differences that are there are much smaller than the difference between either of these politicians and extreme right wing / corporate Trump.

Also, when Bernie lost the primaries, I did not feel that that was the end of it and that it was time to destroy the Democratic party from within. In fact, I felt it was the START of the true liberal movement WITHIN the Democratic party, and when the DNC convention moved towards Bernie's position I saw it as a positive sign that the Democratic party CAN and DOES change.

So I understand and agreed with Bernie when HE ENDORSED Hillary Clinton. Remember that ?

And remember that not all Democrats see the world as you do. As the 2016 primaries show, a majority prefers a more "centrist" (Third Way) position than the one that Bernie is promoting.

But we need all hands on deck to win elections. So the Democratic party must be united to succeed against the real problem (the Republicans) in 2018 and definitively in 2020.

I think the pissing on particular Democrats is detrimental to that cause.

[edit] In summary, to make the party stronger, we need to bring people in, not kick them out.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 04:43:13 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #819 on: February 13, 2018, 05:05:31 AM »
You're really firing in the wrong direction.

There's no sense in discussing this if you don't see how Corporate Democrats are the real problem that in the past two-three decades has led to this mess (ie Trump). It is so clear and logical that it simply baffles me how people refuse to even consider the argument and rather be put to sleep by the hollow and shallow words of Pelosi and her fellow corporate dinosaurs who eat their own young.

Neven, you are so caught up in your own dismay of particular Democrats that you seemed to have lost a connection to reality. You also provide no evidence other than some videos you found on youtube.

Show us the VOTING RECORDS where "Pelosi and her fellow corporate dinosaurs who eat their own young.".
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sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #820 on: February 13, 2018, 07:44:50 AM »
Pelosi credit card transaction fee vote and investment in VISA pre IPO. Pelosi natgas votes and investment in Clean Energy Partners. Pelosi vote on excluding American Samoa from minimum wage to protect husbands investment in Heinz/DelMonte. Pelosi vote on SF light rail benefitting husbands Salesforce and property investments. No impeachment for warmongers. No prosecution for torturers.

Yup. Look at her voting record.

Pelosi is the daughter of a famously corrupt Baltimore mayor. Apple don't fall too far from the tree. Her son was involved in a company, Natural BlueResources run by crooks. Nice family, part of the 0.1% Best and the brightest.

sidd

Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #821 on: February 13, 2018, 07:55:42 AM »
Pelosi credit card transaction fee vote and investment in VISA pre IPO. Pelosi natgas votes and investment in Clean Energy Partners. Pelosi vote on excluding American Samoa from minimum wage to protect husbands investment in Heinz/DelMonte. Pelosi vote on SF light rail benefitting husbands Salesforce and property investments. No impeachment for warmongers. No prosecution for torturers.

Yup. Look at her voting record.

OK sidd, just like Terry, you are moving way too fast. Gish Gallop and things like that.

I'm still waiting for Terry's response to the unfounded allegations regarding Feinstein's voting record on privatization of social security :

Quote
I fail to see how the Welfare Reform Act of 1996 (22 years and three administrations ago) has anything to do with support for Trump.

And by the way, Dianne Feinstein (as well as about half the Democrats) voted against the measure.

Now with your list, can you just take ONE of the voting record issues, and go all the way, explaining what the measure was, who voted for and against it, and why you think they should vote one way or the other.

Let's start with the first one you mention : the "credit card transaction fee vote ". For starters, when did this vote happen, where is the voting list (who voted in favor, and who against), what are the arguments each way, etc. You know, basic stuff before you start pissing on Democrats.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 08:10:06 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #822 on: February 13, 2018, 08:14:21 AM »
Also, Nancy Pelosi just last week set a record with a marathon 8-Hour speech calling for a vote on DACA. Does that sound like a "corporate" Democrat to you ?
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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #823 on: February 13, 2018, 09:51:07 AM »
Pelosi is the daughter of a famously corrupt Baltimore mayor. Apple don't fall too far from the tree. Her son was involved in a company, Natural BlueResources run by crooks. Nice family, part of the 0.1% Best and the brightest.

Here's the son, part of the big club:



No, there's no sense in discussing this if you cling to ideology rather than examine actual facts about who the enemy is and who our friends are.

What's my ideology?

There is one enemy and one enemy only: Concentrated wealth.

Quote
That quote I gave listed specific policy positions that you simply assumed Pelosi was against.  She's not, she's on our side.

So, you truly believe that people like Pelosi, Feinstein and Schumer give priority to the needs of the American people when these conflict with the needs of their donors? And I'd like to ask the same question to Rob, Susan and Martin Gisser. Do you guys really believe that?
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 10:06:09 AM by Neven »
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magnamentis

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #824 on: February 13, 2018, 11:29:06 PM »
@neven

a real pleasure to see you coming more and more out of the bushes all over the place LOL

you're getting better and better and i don't only mean in this thread.

always good to see people who bring things to the point and have the gift to word things
so well (other than myself in non-german) it means i can lean back, enjoy the read and
shut up because it's all said.

SteveMDFP

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #825 on: February 14, 2018, 01:30:27 AM »

Here's the son, part of the big club:

No, there's no sense in discussing this if you cling to ideology rather than examine actual facts about who the enemy is and who our friends are.

What's my ideology?

There is one enemy and one enemy only: Concentrated wealth.

Quote
That quote I gave listed specific policy positions that you simply assumed Pelosi was against.  She's not, she's on our side.

So, you truly believe that people like Pelosi, Feinstein and Schumer give priority to the needs of the American people when these conflict with the needs of their donors? And I'd like to ask the same question to Rob, Susan and Martin Gisser. Do you guys really believe that?

Nobody's pure in politics, especially in the US.  But if you don't think these three have largely pursued the needs of the American people, then show the evidence, the legislative record.  All else is fluff.

I posted a link to Pelosi's voting record, and asked what was so bad about it.  No response from any of the Dem-haters.  Her record is, I think, a good proxy for the House Dems overall.  I'd cite Harry Reid's record as being most representative for the Senate.  Take a look at these votes and the bills they passed, and tell me what, exactly, was so "neoliberal" about them.

Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #826 on: February 14, 2018, 05:33:25 AM »
Sidd, in the name of evidence-based reasoning, second request :
Can you please provide more information on the first vote that you quote as evidence for Pelosi's "corporate" connection :

Quote
"Pelosi credit card transaction fee vote and investment in VISA pre IPO."

You know, WHEN did this vote happen, and WHO voted in favor and against, WHAT are the arguments in favor and against, and WHY do you think Pelosi or any other Democrat voted the way they did.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #827 on: February 14, 2018, 09:21:19 AM »
What's my ideology?

There is one enemy and one enemy only: Concentrated wealth.

Let's test that hypothesis.
If concentrated wealth is the only enemy then Bill Gates donating billions to improve health care across the world is a bigger threat than Pol Pot was in Cambodia (hat tip to Terry).
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SteveMDFP

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #829 on: February 14, 2018, 12:50:39 PM »
On the visa swipe fee matter, she supported the bill that visa wanted to kill.
"The former speaker maintains she wasn't influenced by Visa's lobbying efforts or her husband's stock purchases. "I will hold my record in terms of fighting the credit card companies as speaker of the House or as a member of Congress up against anyone," she told "60 Minutes."

Indeed, the swipe fee legislation opposed by credit card companies eventually passed. Additionally, in 2008 -- before the Pelosis' stock transaction -- the House passed the Credit Cardholders' Bill of Rights over the objections of the industry."

Insider trading legal for legislators at the time--that's been a systemic problem.  If your predecessors have made it easy and legal for you to make money, there are few so saintly that they wouldn't partake.  The mark of an ethical legislator is more about support for closing the insider trading loophole for congress.  I'll look into that.

Meanwhile, if we hadn't noticed, humanity is approaching catastrophe.  If you're drowning, do you refuse help from someone with a questionable record?

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #830 on: February 14, 2018, 01:11:34 PM »
Don't be so reasonable!

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #831 on: February 14, 2018, 01:31:35 PM »
The rising tide in the Trump GOP Swamp is lifting all Democrat boats.  Another state level pick up last night, in FLA Trump country.  All Dems, including Corporate and Neoliberal Schills, are going to win this year.  Biggest threat is GOP supression tactics and Russian interference.

WRT Pelosi, it’s simply time for newer younger leadership.  She has been a fantastic Democrat over the years, but it’s time for fresh ideas.

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #832 on: February 14, 2018, 11:20:01 PM »
@neven

a real pleasure to see you coming more and more out of the bushes all over the place LOL

you're getting better and better and i don't only mean in this thread.

always good to see people who bring things to the point and have the gift to word things
so well (other than myself in non-german) it means i can lean back, enjoy the read and
shut up because it's all said.

I've told you before that this Forum doesn't need people cheering on discord and polarisation. It's difficult enough to talk about these things as it is. Tell me these things in a PM, not publicly.

Nobody's pure in politics, especially in the US.  But if you don't think these three have largely pursued the needs of the American people, then show the evidence, the legislative record.  All else is fluff.

That doesn't answer my question, Steve. Pelosi is the biggest fundraiser in Congress, which is why she's minority leader. Are these donations just gifts, no strings attached? Most Americans want Medicare For All, even Republican voters. Donors from Big Pharma and Big Insurance definitely don't want that (nothing personal, they are under the obligation of maximizing profits). Whose interests does Pelosi and other Corporate Democrats serve when push comes to shove? Do you really think they'll do what the people want?

And the same goes for free college, ending the wars, minimum wage. These are all pie in the sky ideas, for the richest country in the world, while most of the rest of the world has these things.

Why doesn't the Democratic Party run with these ideas, get all those young people and disillusioned left-behinds to the ballot box? What other possible answer can there be than that the donors don't want it?

Can anyone here explain that to me? Do you truly believe everyone in the Democratic Party is unaffected by donor money? Which ones are the worst? Can we talk about this?

Quote
I posted a link to Pelosi's voting record, and asked what was so bad about it.  No response from any of the Dem-haters.  Her record is, I think, a good proxy for the House Dems overall.  I'd cite Harry Reid's record as being most representative for the Senate.  Take a look at these votes and the bills they passed, and tell me what, exactly, was so "neoliberal" about them.

I'm looking at the current system, not just in the US, but around the world. At this irrational addiction to GDP growth, so that the piles of concentrated wealth can keep growing bigger (regardless if their owners want it or not). At the consequences, like AGW, resource wars, financial bubbles, the increase in chronic diseases, ocean acidification, consumer/addiction culture, and so on.

Yes, the GOP consists mostly of maniacs and criminals, but have Democratic leaders ever acknowledged their failures so far? Because they were part of that, part of the deregulations, part of the endless wars, part of the Wall Street bail-outs, part of the opioid crisis, part of depriving of millions of Americans of medical care.

Have they said something along the lines of: "I wanted to do more, but couldn't, my hands were tied. I'm sorry I couldn't do all the things I promised"? No, they think they're fantastic. Where's my book deal? Which equity firm wants a speech? On what talk show can I crack some jokes this week?

Instead of things getting better, they've gone incrementally worse, culminating (for now) in a bald clown in the White House. Don't tell me the Democrats were simply powerless in the last 30 years. If this is all the GOP's handiwork, then we must talk about the Democratic Party's failure to prevent it. And they're not stupid, so what happened? Simple: Money in politics.

To deny this or gloss it over, means the patient will not recover. Because to cure a disease, you have to know what caused it.

Now, I'm no leftist (the ideology Steve referred to), but I do understand that in politics it's important to have a balance. There is no Left in the US. There's right and extreme right, and they're tag teaming to help the rich get richer, at an ever faster exponential rate.

So, how do we talk about this?
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AbruptSLR

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #833 on: February 14, 2018, 11:43:33 PM »
Progressives can celebrate these pledges by Kirsten Gillibrand and Cory Booker:

Title: "Two Democratic Frontrunners for 2020 Have Just Sworn Off Corporate Cash"

https://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/two-democratic-frontrunners-2020-have-just-sworn-corporate-cash
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #834 on: February 15, 2018, 01:36:20 AM »
Progressives can celebrate these pledges by Kirsten Gillibrand and Cory Booker:

Title: "Two Democratic Frontrunners for 2020 Have Just Sworn Off Corporate Cash"

https://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/two-democratic-frontrunners-2020-have-just-sworn-corporate-cash
That truly is wonderful news. It's far too early to claim that we are winning, but we can claim that we're making a difference - and that alone is a huge victory.


Once the un-bought Democrats begin campaigning on all the issues that their previous donors had prevented them from even mentioning, they will win, and that will be noted by their Corporatized companions.
The transition could be sudden with the old guard being swept away by the young upstarts that lead the Democratic Party back to it's blue collar roots.


I hope the change comes in time.
Terry

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #835 on: February 15, 2018, 01:53:53 AM »
 

Nobody's pure in politics, especially in the US.  But if you don't think these three have largely pursued the needs of the American people, then show the evidence, the legislative record.  All else is fluff.

That doesn't answer my question, Steve. Pelosi is the biggest fundraiser in Congress, which is why she's minority leader. Are these donations just gifts, no strings attached? Most Americans want Medicare For All, even Republican voters. Donors from Big Pharma and Big Insurance definitely don't want that (nothing personal, they are under the obligation of maximizing profits). Whose interests does Pelosi and other Corporate Democrats serve when push comes to shove? Do you really think they'll do what the people want?

Well, you didn't answer my question, either.  How can you keep making sweeping generalizations about how the Dems are screwing the people without addressing the legislative record?  It doesn't support what you've been saying here, at all.

I think you're view of campaign finance is simplistic, on multiple levels.  Big donors have some influence, yes.  Some legislators are more abjectly beholden than others.  But virtually none have the luxury of ignoring donors' interests and still being able to hold a seat in Congress.

Another point is that great concentrations of wealth, while bad, are not nearly as bad as an economic system that tends to drive greater and greater concentrations.

Some wealthy individuals, and even wealthy corporations, actually want to live in a sane, just, humane, and environmentally sustainable world.  Some of them give money to Democrats in interests of having a better nation and better world.  Thumbing our noses at them simply makes Democrats even more out-gunned in elections. 

Many donations go to whoever the giver thinks will win, in the hopes of later having influence among those in power. 

But it's crystal clear that the intelligent expenditure of money sways opinion and sways elections.  It'a a crazy, perverse, and stupid way to run elections, but nobody running for office made it that way.  It's an intrinsically corrupt system, and the pure have no chance in this kind of knife fight.

Progressives need all the donations they can get, from virtually anyone.  The alternative is one-party rule.  If big donors can be persuaded to give, without giving away the whole farm, we need them.

It's bad.  It didn't used to be this bad.  You can thank Citizens United at the Supreme Court for making politics ten times worse than before Obama's election.
Quote
And the same goes for free college, ending the wars, minimum wage. These are all pie in the sky ideas, for the richest country in the world, while most of the rest of the world has these things.

Why doesn't the Democratic Party run with these ideas, get all those young people and disillusioned left-behinds to the ballot box? What other possible answer can there be than that the donors don't want it?

Democrats *have* been trying to raise the minimum wage, and worker protections.  And promoting the idea of free community college.  And making debts less burdensome for students.  And supporting significant steps towards renewable energy and environmental protections.

But it only takes 41 votes against in the Senate to kill a bill.  And executive orders by a progressive president can be immediately undone by a regressive one.
Quote
Quote
I posted a link to Pelosi's voting record, and asked what was so bad about it.  No response from any of the Dem-haters.  Her record is, I think, a good proxy for the House Dems overall.  I'd cite Harry Reid's record as being most representative for the Senate.  Take a look at these votes and the bills they passed, and tell me what, exactly, was so "neoliberal" about them.

I'm looking at the current system, not just in the US, but around the world. At this irrational addiction to GDP growth, so that the piles of concentrated wealth can keep growing bigger (regardless if their owners want it or not). At the consequences, like AGW, resource wars, financial bubbles, the increase in chronic diseases, ocean acidification, consumer/addiction culture, and so on.

Yes, the GOP consists mostly of maniacs and criminals, but have Democratic leaders ever acknowledged their failures so far? Because they were part of that, part of the deregulations, part of the endless wars, part of the Wall Street bail-outs, part of the opioid crisis, part of depriving of millions of Americans of medical care.

Have they said something along the lines of: "I wanted to do more, but couldn't, my hands were tied. I'm sorry I couldn't do all the things I promised"? No, they think they're fantastic. Where's my book deal? Which equity firm wants a speech? On what talk show can I crack some jokes this week?

Instead of things getting better, they've gone incrementally worse, culminating (for now) in a bald clown in the White House. Don't tell me the Democrats were simply powerless in the last 30 years. If this is all the GOP's handiwork, then we must talk about the Democratic Party's failure to prevent it. And they're not stupid, so what happened? Simple: Money in politics.


Well, yes, money in politics is a bad thing.  We have a bad system here.  It may take, God forbid, a constitutional amendment to fix.

But it's still more complicated than you describe.  Who are these "Democratic leaders" you speak of who are responsible for your list of (exaggerated) sins, who need to confess and atone?  THERE ARE NONE.  Hillary and Obama are permanently essentially irrelevant since the last election.  The DNC doesn't control what bills come up in Congress.  They don't whip votes.  They don't even control who can get on the ballot and run. 

The DNC exists almost wholly as a conduit for some campaign funds.  They don't control votes in Congress or any of the State legislatures.  Considering all the PACs, Super-PACs, and "dark money" floating around, the DNC doesn't even control much of campaign funding.  The DNC isn't entirely irrelevant, but closer to that than most seem to think.

Party heads in Congress have some limited influence.  But even when Dems have a majority, the majority leaders don't dictate votes of their caucus. 

By and large, "the Democrats" are the individual voters, and individual candidates, with their individual campaign donors.  There isn't anyone in particular to beat their chests about the last election cycle.  Except Hillary, but she's now permanently nearly irrelevant, so it doesn't matter if she does or doesn't.

Despite the influence of money in campaigns, the Dems have largely stuck to a hearteningly progressive legislative record.  This is true regardless of the personal wealth of specific legislators, and regardless of how much in donations they've accepted.  They've done remarkably well in a horrid electoral system that is stacked against them.

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #836 on: February 15, 2018, 03:32:28 AM »
Steve wrote: "Another point is that great concentrations of wealth, while bad, are not nearly as bad as an economic system that tends to drive greater and greater concentrations."

I'm mostly just trying to follow along with the conversation here, and most of what you are saying seems to make some sense even where I don't agree 100%.

But this claim above confused me. Could you explain this a bit? Are you saying that some other system than the current one in the US has been better at concentrating wealth?

Because among  modern industrial countries ('first world') at least, the US has about as highest level of a wealth, and a large number of 'third world' countries are considerably better. See the 'Gini Coefficients' at:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality

Bu maybe I'm misunderstanding or misinterpreting your statement above?
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SteveMDFP

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #837 on: February 15, 2018, 04:01:07 AM »
Steve wrote: "Another point is that great concentrations of wealth, while bad, are not nearly as bad as an economic system that tends to drive greater and greater concentrations."

I'm mostly just trying to follow along with the conversation here, and most of what you are saying seems to make some sense even where I don't agree 100%.

But this claim above confused me. Could you explain this a bit? Are you saying that some other system than the current one in the US has been better at concentrating wealth?

Because among  modern industrial countries ('first world') at least, the US has about as highest level of a wealth, and a large number of 'third world' countries are considerably better. See the 'Gini Coefficients' at:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality

Bu maybe I'm misunderstanding or misinterpreting your statement above?

I wrote a poorly developed statement.  Wealth inequality is bad.  Concentration of wealth in fewer hands is mostly a symptom of an unjust economic *system*.  Neither the rich nor poor are villains, they're all just fish in the economic sea.

In other words, it's a mistake to demonize the wealthy.  Mostly they got there by luck.  I don't think the wealthy are particularly different from the poor in character or morals or beliefs.  So there's no reason to welcome campaign contributions by the poor while eschewing contributions from the wealthy.  Mostly they all give because they like the message of the candidate.

Certainly *some* of the wealthy donors expect influence.  But I think most just want their candidate to win.  We should welcome those contributions.

jai mitchell

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #838 on: February 15, 2018, 04:43:41 AM »
in this 2013 interview with author Chris Hedges, he would disagree with your assessment of the very rich.  He knows what he speaks having spent his entire youth in scholarship at the elite schools of the old money in New England.

Pathology of the Super-Rich part I


Part II
Haiku of Past Futures
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are not tri-color bar graphs
+3C today

Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #839 on: February 15, 2018, 06:30:06 AM »
Guys, if we ever want to come to a common understanding of reality, we need to slow things down. Big time. No more hyperbolic statements, no pre-conceived opinions, but just facts.
Right now we are just rushing through the issues at lightning speed, and that means that nobody has the time to truly comprehend or verify what the other is saying.

If we want to get anywhere, what we need is evidence-based reasoning, not constant repetition of pre-conceived beliefs.

So I'm going to rewind, and see if we can get some evidence-based reasoning into this discussion.

Neven states :
Quote
It is so clear and logical that it simply baffles me how people refuse to even consider the argument and rather be put to sleep by the hollow and shallow words of Pelosi and her fellow corporate dinosaurs who eat their own young.

Which is pretty bold, considering that Neven does not present a single shred of evidence.

He follows up with a question :

Quote
So, you truly believe that people like Pelosi, Feinstein and Schumer give priority to the needs of the American people when these conflict with the needs of their donors?

The short answer is yes. But that is using the evidence we have from their voting record. Which is an issue that Steve also brings up : If you are to judge politicians for voting against their constituents and in favor of their donors, you just need to look at their VOTING RECORD !

So I asked for that evidence of voter record multiple times. The only one who responded is sidd (thank you sidd) :

Quote
Pelosi credit card transaction fee vote and investment in VISA pre IPO. Pelosi natgas votes and investment in Clean Energy Partners. Pelosi vote on excluding American Samoa from minimum wage to protect husbands investment in Heinz/DelMonte. Pelosi vote on SF light rail benefitting husbands Salesforce and property investments. No impeachment for warmongers. No prosecution for torturers.

Now these are still just sentences, no evidence and no voting record, so I proposed :

Quote
Can you please provide more information on the first vote that you quote as evidence for Pelosi's "corporate" connection :
Quote
"Pelosi credit card transaction fee vote and investment in VISA pre IPO."
You know, WHEN did this vote happen, and WHO voted in favor and against, WHAT are the arguments in favor and against, and WHY do you think Pelosi or any other Democrat voted the way they did.

Sidd (thank you!) answered with this :

Quote
VISA
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-details-on-visas-attempt-to-influence-pelosi/

Which is a newspaper article, which does not even answer the first question of WHEN this vote happened.
It does however point out a few facts :

Quote
Visa's political action committee made a $1,000 donation to Pelosi's re-election campaign,

and

Quote
the swipe fee legislation opposed by credit card companies eventually passed.

which suggests that Visa did not get their way, despite their whopping $1,000 donation.

Now let me turn Neven's question around :

Why do you believe that people like Pelosi, Feinstein and Schumer give priority to the needs of their ($1000) donors, instead of the American people that vote for them when these conflict with the needs of their donors?

Also, I'd like to really understand why (which evidence!) Neven believes that "Pelosi and her fellow corporate dinosaurs who eat their own young".

And I'd like to understand why sidd only mentions a newspaper article that disproves donor influence, and cannot even name the measure that was voted on, and when that vote happened.

If we are get to some resolution on opinions here, we should REALLY employ this kind of evidence based reasoning, so we can get to the CORE of WHY you have these opinions about particular Democrats in the first place.

And let me just end with a note : If you are to piss on Democrats, do it on the ones that are clearly in the pockets of the fossil fuel industry : The ones that voted in favor of the Keystone XL pipeline.

By attacking Democrats with a stellar voting record (like Pelosi and Feinstein) from one of the most liberal states in the US (California) you come across as an extremist right-winger.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 06:40:00 AM by Rob Dekker »
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sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #840 on: February 15, 2018, 06:34:51 AM »
" ...  their whopping $1,000 donation."

Apparently, some people do not read my references. The Pelosis got in on the ground floor of pre IPO VISA. From the very cbsnews article:

"The former speaker and her husband have participated in at least eight IPOs, one of which was from Visa in 2008 - just as a troublesome piece of legislation that would have hurt credit card companies began making its way through the House."

sidd

Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #841 on: February 15, 2018, 06:43:16 AM »
" ...  their whopping $1,000 donation."

Apparently, some people do not read my references. The Pelosis got in on the ground floor of pre IPO VISA. From the very cbsnews article:

"The former speaker and her husband have participated in at least eight IPOs, one of which was from Visa in 2008 - just as a troublesome piece of legislation that would have hurt credit card companies began making its way through the House."

Sidd, ANYONE can buy into an IPO.
And since you still did not answer the question as to WHICH measure you were talking about and WHEN this vote happened, and HOW Pelosi and other Democrats voted on it, and WHY, there is absolutely no relation with Pelosi's voting record and her husband's investment in an IPO.

This also exposes something more serious. Since you cannot identify which "swipe fee legislation" this newspaper article refers to, it seems that you get your information not from the source (the voting record) but instead from quick Googling particular opinions that you already hold.
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sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #842 on: February 15, 2018, 06:52:02 AM »
They got in pre IPO. You and I can't buy pre IPO at 44$ a share.

"Separately, Pelosi’s husband, Paul, a major investor in California, got a lucrative phone call—a pre-screen invite in March 2008 to take part in Visa’s $17.9 billion public stock offering, at the time one of the hottest stock offerings in an otherwise soft market. The initial-public-offering price was $44 per share and was limited to institutional investors and a group of specially selected individuals. "

This fone call at a time when VISA needs some legislation done.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/visas-courtship-nancy-pelosi-032100907.html

sidd

Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #843 on: February 15, 2018, 07:03:36 AM »
This fone call at a time when VISA needs some legislation done.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/visas-courtship-nancy-pelosi-032100907.html

Sigh. Sidd, Last time : put up or shut up : WHICH legislation exactly are you referring to, and HOW did Pelosi vote on it ?
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sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #844 on: February 15, 2018, 07:14:38 AM »
Please read the article:

"Several bills affecting credit providers snaked through the House in 2008, including one introduced by Rep. John Conyers (D-Mich.) that would have ended the swipe fees, the small percentage that credit companies like Visa charge with every transaction. Another bill by Rep. Carolyn Maloney (D-N.Y.), affording significant new protection to credit-card holders, passed the House but did not make it through the Senate. Conyers’s legislation passed his House Judiciary Committee with bipartisan support on Oct. 3, 2008, the last day lawmakers were in office before leaving to campaign for the election, but was not brought to the floor, which Pelosi controlled as speaker."

Now that would be: H.R.5546 — 110th Congress She took bribes from VISA and blocked the thing, can't have that, would hurt their share price. She delivered, at least that time. And protected her chunk of VISA shares too.

It's the American Way.

sidd



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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #845 on: February 15, 2018, 07:39:45 AM »
So I tried to google out this Pelosi-VISA thing. Only 10min. The only seemingly reliable explanation I found is this one: https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-News-Wires/2011/1115/Did-Nancy-Pelosi-profit-from-Visa-stock-purchases
1) Peanuts! (German banker lingo: nothingburger)
2) I stopped worrying about this story when I saw it came from one Peter Schweizer. A famous right-wingnut bullshit producer who wrote books like "Clinton Cash" or "Makers and Takers: Why conservatives work harder, feel happier, have closer families, take fewer drugs, give more generously, value honesty more, are less materialistic and envious, whine less … and even hug their children more than liberals" ROTFL... and friend of Steve Bannon.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Schweizer
https://books.google.de/books?id=SU_r9sO72g0C


----------------
P.S.:
In another thread I told about the fascination me German has with the psycho-pathologies of the U.S. polit circus. And that, alas, I'm not a psychologist and can't yet clearly state my hunches.
This Schweizer guy, now, was a very helpful hint at the crux of the matter:

The problem is less how to kick out "corporate democrats". The problem is more, the U.S. left seems totally helpless against bullshit like Schweizer's. Reagan already demonstrated that in the debate with Carter. Plus, many super-leftists eagerly swallow it hook, line, and sinker.

P.P.S.: I use the wörd "bullshit" not derogatory but as a technical term. Cf. Harry Frankfurt's scholarly essay "On Bullshit" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Bullshit
The other problem is, as in climate debate, people are too shy to use this word.

Edit finito. Now for a Barvarian morning beer.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 08:08:24 AM by Martin Gisser »

wili

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #846 on: February 15, 2018, 08:32:59 AM »
Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Steve.

I'm glad you acknowledge that at least some of the wealthy use at least some of their money to make sure that the system makes them even more wealthy. That includes influencing legislation and policies. 

Unfortunately, that now means that mostly policy no longer reflects what most people want, but rather what best serves the interests of those who can pay for the most lobbyists and who make the most political contributions.

http://www.collegiatetimes.com/opinion/public-policy-does-not-reflect-general-public-interest/article_d5ea7e82-b5e8-5dc7-989b-908da90fded2.html

And see the 2014 study by Gillens and Page which concluded: "When a majority of citizens disagrees with economic elites and/or with organized interests, they generally lose."

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-politics/article/testing-theories-of-american-politics-elites-interest-groups-and-average-citizens/62327F513959D0A304D4893B382B992B

Referenced at the end of this article: https://www.skepticalscience.com/fake-news-threat-humanity-scientists-solution.html

Where they point out: "The study found that while economic elites’ and business groups’ preferences often result in policy changes, public opinion has virtually no influence on policy outcomes"
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #847 on: February 15, 2018, 08:34:06 AM »
Re: Gillibrand and Booker

First they reject corporate money. Truly, crowdfunding is the new black.

Next they support decriminalizing weed.

http://thehill.com/regulation/373914-gillibrand-backs-bookers-bill-to-legalize-marijuana

Halleluia. Toke it up.

Well, that's a good start. Keep it up, and they might move the Democratic Party in the left direction.

sidd

Rob Dekker

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #848 on: February 15, 2018, 08:51:01 AM »
Please read the article:

"Several bills affecting credit providers snaked through the House in 2008, including one introduced by Rep. John Conyers (D-Mich.) that would have ended the swipe fees, the small percentage that credit companies like Visa charge with every transaction. Another bill by Rep. Carolyn Maloney (D-N.Y.), affording significant new protection to credit-card holders, passed the House but did not make it through the Senate. Conyers’s legislation passed his House Judiciary Committee with bipartisan support on Oct. 3, 2008, the last day lawmakers were in office before leaving to campaign for the election, but was not brought to the floor, which Pelosi controlled as speaker."

Now that would be: H.R.5546 — 110th Congress She took bribes from VISA and blocked the thing, can't have that, would hurt their share price. She delivered, at least that time. And protected her chunk of VISA shares too.

It's the American Way.

sidd

Man, it's like pulling teeth with you.
H.R.5546 never made it to the floor. For multiple reasons. One being that Bush was still president and he would have vetoed ANY regulation of the credit card industry.

Another was that it was very much pro-VISA/Mastercard. Things like this :

https://www.congress.gov/bill/110th-congress/house-bill/5546

Quote
Authorizes providers of a single covered electronic payment system (e.g. Visa or Mastercharge credit cards) and merchants to jointly negotiate and agree upon rates and terms for access to such system.
and
Quote
Authorizes such providers to jointly determine the proportionate division among themselves of paid access fees.
do not really help customers, and I admire Pelosi for blocking this piece for as much as she could.

A better bill had to wait until Obama.

Your CBS article mentions quite specifically :
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-details-on-visas-attempt-to-influence-pelosi/

Quote
the swipe fee legislation opposed by credit card companies eventually passed.

So you are still talking about a different piece of legislature. One that passed in 2009 under Obama.
Which one was that ? And how did Pelosi (and other Democrats) vote under that piece ?

[edit] Sorry for digging into the niddy griddy details, but that is what it takes to form an opinion based on facts.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 09:38:30 AM by Rob Dekker »
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Alexander555

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #849 on: February 15, 2018, 09:42:33 AM »
So I tried to google out this Pelosi-VISA thing. Only 10min. The only seemingly reliable explanation I found is this one: https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-News-Wires/2011/1115/Did-Nancy-Pelosi-profit-from-Visa-stock-purchases
1) Peanuts! (German banker lingo: nothingburger)
2) I stopped worrying about this story when I saw it came from one Peter Schweizer. A famous right-wingnut bullshit producer who wrote books like "Clinton Cash" or "Makers and Takers: Why conservatives work harder, feel happier, have closer families, take fewer drugs, give more generously, value honesty more, are less materialistic and envious, whine less … and even hug their children more than liberals" ROTFL... and friend of Steve Bannon.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Schweizer
https://books.google.de/books?id=SU_r9sO72g0C


----------------
P.S.:
In another thread I told about the fascination me German has with the psycho-pathologies of the U.S. polit circus. And that, alas, I'm not a psychologist and can't yet clearly state my hunches.
This Schweizer guy, now, was a very helpful hint at the crux of the matter:

The problem is less how to kick out "corporate democrats". The problem is more, the U.S. left seems totally helpless against bullshit like Schweizer's. Reagan already demonstrated that in the debate with Carter. Plus, many super-leftists eagerly swallow it hook, line, and sinker.

P.P.S.: I use the wörd "bullshit" not derogatory but as a technical term. Cf. Harry Frankfurt's scholarly essay "On Bullshit" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Bullshit
The other problem is, as in climate debate, people are too shy to use this word.

Edit finito. Now for a Barvarian morning beer.

A beer in the morning Martin. That's not very respectful towards your muslim brothers. And for an old retired population with a mainly young muslim population you should learn to show some respect.

And Martin, that's the 3th time in a 100 years. You germans are good for nothing.