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sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1650 on: October 14, 2018, 08:58:37 PM »
Not so Progressive: the Congressional Progressive Caucus still sucking on corporate teat:

"not only did the Congressional Progressive Caucus PAC accept corporate contributions until recently, but also, almost all of its 78 members — including Pocan — still take corporate money individually, even as their caucus shuns it. Just four caucus members who will be returning to the House next session have pledged to decline corporate funds"

“Those small-dollar donations are a reflection of grassroots support on the ground. And it’s not easy work, it’s very hard work, but it’s what we should expect of our electeds,”

" the candidates who are not doing that hard work that are “compromising the entire system.” "

https://theintercept.com/2018/10/14/congressional-progressive-caucus-corporate-pac-money/

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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1651 on: October 14, 2018, 09:40:15 PM »
Hand in glove:

Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

mostly_lurking

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1652 on: October 16, 2018, 03:28:28 PM »
CNN Poll Indicates A Third of Democrats Want Joe Biden to be Their Standard Bearer



CNN POLL CONDUCTED BY SSRS
Oct. 4-7
DEMOCRATS/DEMOCRATIC-LEANING INDEPENDENTS
Top Choices for Nominee
 
Biden        33%
Sanders      13%
Harris        9%
Warren        8%
Booker        5%
Kerry         5%

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1653 on: October 22, 2018, 11:35:10 PM »
Corporate democrats bay for Assange's head:

"On Wednesday, the top-ranking Democrat on the House Foreign Relations Committee sent a threatening letter to Ecuadorian President Lenín Moreno insisting that he “hand over” Assange to the “proper authorities” as a precondition for improving relations with the United States."

" ... 10 Democratic Party senators called on the Trump administration to demand that the Ecuadorian government renege on the political asylum it provided Assange six years ago."

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2018/10/18/assa-o18.html

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sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1654 on: October 25, 2018, 10:13:26 PM »
America's finest news source:

"Chuck Schumer expressed relief Wednesday that he has never taken a stance meaningful enough to inspire someone to mail him an explosive. "

"Hopefully if I just keep my head down and stay focused on tacitly supporting the status quo, I’ll keep out of the line of fire."

https://politics.theonion.com/chuck-schumer-relieved-he-s-never-taken-stance-meaningf-1829972180

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mostly_lurking

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1655 on: November 04, 2018, 03:18:11 PM »
Putting this here mostly for laughs  ::)
But seriously some people  still believe this...?

Hillary Clinton remains the Democrats best chance to defeat Trump in 2020

https://chicago.suntimes.com/columnists/hillary-clinton-2020-presidential-election-elizabeth-warren-bernie-sanders-democratic-party/



In John Olivers words "Do It! Just do it"



Rob Dekker

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This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1657 on: November 07, 2018, 02:45:00 PM »
Hand in glove:


Gosh can alt-left Obama bashing get more ridiculous?

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1658 on: November 07, 2018, 03:45:27 PM »
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1659 on: November 07, 2018, 11:14:22 PM »
Can't win the presidency without AIPAC money: Booker backs anti BDS bill using Pittsburgh massacre as cover

https://mondoweiss.net/2018/11/semitic-massacre-palestinians/

sidd

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1660 on: November 08, 2018, 06:01:13 PM »
TYT's Cenk Uygur explains, for those who are open to it and aren't hindered by an authoritarian streak:

Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1661 on: November 08, 2018, 09:00:40 PM »
CIA democrats elected to House:

" Winning seats (as of this writing) were at least nine such candidates, including two former CIA operatives, Abigail Spanberger in Virginia and Elissa Slotkin in Michigan; former military officers Max Rose in New York, Mikie Sherill in New Jersey, Chrissy Houlahan and Connor Lamb in Pennsylvania, Elaine Luria in Virginia, and Jason Crow in Colorado; and former State Department official Tom Malinowski in New Jersey, with several other races still to be decided."

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2018/11/07/elec-n07.html

sidd

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1662 on: November 08, 2018, 09:34:45 PM »
How shallow, visionless, ethically challenged and intellectually dishonest do you have to be to support someone like Nancy Pelosi:



Or Dianne Feinstein:



On the one hand Republican, on the other hand Democrats like this...
I don't think I could sleep if I would live in the USA.
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sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1663 on: November 08, 2018, 10:38:51 PM »
K street lobbyists making out:

" ... lobbying firms — the biggest of which are typically bipartisan and pride themselves on their ability to thrive no matter which party is in power — and companies have already hired new Democratic lobbyists  ..."

“We’ve got a former chief of staff to Mitch McConnell and a former chief of staff to Nancy Pelosi,”
 
“Either you have enough Democrats or don’t, and if you don’t, you’re playing catch-up,”

"Democrats added several members of color to their caucus last night ...“I don’t know how prepared firms are for that,” said Marcus Mason, a lobbyist at the Madison Group who’s on the board of the Congressional Black Caucus Political Action Committee."

" Jeff Forbes, a Democratic lobbyist and co-founder of the firm Forbes Tate, said he expected members who are more business friendly to play an important role in the caucus."

" “There are going to be a number of voices of reason who don’t just hate corporations,” Forbes said. "

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/11/07/house-democrats-lobbying-973693

sidd



sedziobs

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1664 on: November 09, 2018, 12:27:11 AM »
Jimmy Dore equates Feinstein to Gingrich because she gave a vague acceptance speech with no policy specifics.  That kind of petty "analysis" won't be keeping anyone up at night.  How shallow, visionless, ethically challenged and intellectually dishonest do you have to be to venerate Jimmy Dore?

At least Uygur presents some rational arguments. 
« Last Edit: November 09, 2018, 12:45:42 AM by sedziobs »

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1665 on: November 09, 2018, 10:48:09 AM »
Jimmy Dore equates Feinstein to Gingrich because she gave a vague acceptance speech with no policy specifics.  That kind of petty "analysis" won't be keeping anyone up at night.  How shallow, visionless, ethically challenged and intellectually dishonest do you have to be to venerate Jimmy Dore?

I take it you support Pelosi and Feinstein?
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sedziobs

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1666 on: November 09, 2018, 04:27:26 PM »
I take it you support Pelosi and Feinstein?
Nope.  I think both should be replaced.  Pelosi being leader for 15 years is reason enough.  But I don't have a preconceived loathing of them, which is what's required to think Dore is funny or insightful in those clips.

His main ethos (which you obviously share) seems to be that running on progressive ideas like medicare for all and free college tuition will win elections.  I support those positions, but assuming that corporate democrats, independents, and conservatives are going to suddenly come to their senses is magical thinking.  78 Justice Democrats tried that, and less than 10% were elected to office.  American ideas are deeply entrenched.  Unless you want to murder the over 55 white population, socialism has a very steep path to gain a majority.  There are too many American-exceptionalist theocrats.  Progressive ideas will grow mostly through demographic change, which will take time.  Some pieces will come sooner, probably medicare for all.  Someone like Bernie may win the presidency, but socialists won't get control of government without help from Democrats in red states.  We should promote socialism, but pontificating like Dore is a waste of time.

Lurk telling me about sophistry and logical fallacies makes me laugh more than Dore.

SteveMDFP

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1667 on: November 09, 2018, 05:33:10 PM »
Mind you in one state the Minimum Wage doesn't rise to $12 until 2023 which is very sick imo.

The Minimum Wage for Adults  +18 yr/old should already be $25 / Hour for part-time/casual shift work, and $20 / Hour for full time with health benefits.

In fact, it should be called a LIVING WAGE - being able to provide all the basics of secure living including being able to save for a rainy day.

Here's some rough number comparisons to help "silly Americans" work out how really screwed over US Low Income Workers are by the System, the employers, the Tax system, the Health care system, the political system and the CORPORATE DEMOCRATS at County to State to Federal levels of Government. 

The federal nationwide minimum wage in the United States is US$7.25 per hour.[244] States may also set a minimum, in which case the higher of the two is controlling; some territories are exempt and have lower rates.[245] As of July 1, 2018, state minimum wage rates range from $5.15 per hour to $11.50 per hour.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country

Good luck working out what US Tax rates might apply, and how much a worker may need to pay for Private health insurance.

But there is NO TAX-FREE threshold for low income workers .... $0 – $9,525 @10%
Plus any State Income tax that might apply. 
https://smartasset.com/taxes/current-federal-income-tax-brackets

They get NO FREE Health care/insurance .... very few accessible FREE Hospitals/Health Clinics .... they might get some ACA access at what price, who knows?

OK? That's the base point for this comparison. Minimum Income - Tax rates - health care support for no income / low income minimum wage workers

You see the REAL question about the Corporate Democrats is - what do the $$$ numbers actually say?  WHAT ARE THE REAL FACTS - in the USA versus everywhere else in the world of equivalent first world successful economies and western democracies?
--- ---
Minimum wage in Germany 2018

I just wanted to take the opportunity to say that I totally agree.
Except that I'm not sure "corporate Democrats" are to blame.
Certainly Republicans have opposed increasing the minimum wage.
I'm not sure that any democrats have opposed increasing it at the Federal level.
I acknowledge in advance that I haven't researched the question fully.

But your main point that the poor/lower middle class has been progressively screwed in the US is absolutely correct, and it pisses me off, too.
Not mentioned here is the impossibility of attaining higher education without crippling debt.
A society that refuses to invest in the education of its next generation is simply doomed in the long run.

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1668 on: November 10, 2018, 12:24:54 AM »
Nope.  I think both should be replaced.  Pelosi being leader for 15 years is reason enough.  But I don't have a preconceived loathing of them, which is what's required to think Dore is funny or insightful in those clips.

Why would you replace them? Pelosi is a master legislator who is well on her way to raising 1 billion dollars from the donor class. She's a natural leader, because she hands out so much money to everyone, even those against her! Feinstein is a true patriot, doing her bit for the endless wars and surveillance of you and all your countrymen (and mine probably too). As for medicare: If it means a government take-over, she's not quite there yet. She will never be there.

Unity in the land of the brave and the free! We put our values on the ballot, and strive for the double-penetration-bipartisanship all those poor deplorables so obviously long for. Or should. Because they have nowhere else to go. God shed his grace on America! And justice for all! Good things! We want good things!

Quote
His main ethos (which you obviously share) seems to be that running on progressive ideas like medicare for all and free college tuition will win elections.  I support those positions, but assuming that corporate democrats, independents, and conservatives are going to suddenly come to their senses is magical thinking.  78 Justice Democrats tried that, and less than 10% were elected to office.  American ideas are deeply entrenched.

Conditioned propaganda is deeply entrenched, you mean, to the point that you obligingly regurgitate it, like a good pupil who will do everything to get a pat on the head from the teacher. But it has always been wrong, and it's more wrong now than ever. Have you been following polling on these issues? Even a majority of Republican voters are favourable to many of these policies.

Or like stupid, pontificating, petty, shitty Jimmy Dore says in the video below:

Quote
People's attitudes are progressive in the country. They just don't know it. And they're caught up in this Republican-Democrat... They can't, cause they hate... For instance, you go to a Red State, they just hate the Democrats, and they see all the negatives about them. And even if they're for a good thing, they can't bring themselves a lot of times to vote for them.

But many of them are for things like a living wage, ending the wars, ending student debt, medicare for all. They're just brainwashed to think they're against it because of corporate hypocrites like the Clintons, Obama, Pelosi, Schumer, and so on. That's the whole idea. Republicans and Corporate Democrats, they both play their respective roles in keeping the status quo, so that concentrated wealth continues to grow at exponential rates.



Quote
Unless you want to murder the over 55 white population, socialism has a very steep path to gain a majority.

You're making that path even steeper with your conditioned nonsense. Yes, we see the over 55 population on this forum too, making sure that the radicals are fought every inch of the way, just so their standard of living, their conditioned consumerist addiction, isn't compromised. They're aware of the serious risks AGW is posing, but still they can't bring themselves to step one foot outside of their incrementalism bubble. Because subconsciously they're afraid of losing even 1% of the comfort they have.

Tolstoy has explained all this 150 years ago, as have many other before and after him. I thought climate risk deniers were the big problem, but it's actually the people who think they are liberal and green, while actually being conservative, reactionary, and authoritarian with their mechanistic, materialistic, heavily conditioned way of thinking, who are an even bigger hurdle to take.

That's the number 1 thing I've learned on this forum. That even the smartest of people are actually dumb because they have zero insight into themselves. They cling to their identity and conditioning, to their need of an enemy, to their little socio-economic bubble, oblivious of universal principles and the needs and feelings of people who have it worse than them.

But there are many, many other people, younger people, poorer people, wiser people, who want the system to change, and change fast.

Quote
There are too many American-exceptionalist theocrats.  Progressive ideas will grow mostly through demographic change, which will take time.  Some pieces will come sooner, probably medicare for all.  Someone like Bernie may win the presidency, but socialists won't get control of government without help from Democrats in red states.  We should promote socialism, but pontificating like Dore is a waste of time.

Time is irrelevant if you're going to take it slow like you propose. You've already lost, you're already dead if you think that way. Do you even take something like AGW seriously? Or are just here to please the mommy and daddy in your head? Don't be so weak and wishy-washy, sounding all moderate and rational. I don't care if it's 'socialism' or whatever stupid label you want to put on it, it's time for a radical vision to save what can still be saved.

It is you who is making the path steep, with your inability to even explain the real reasons for why people like Pelosi and Feinstein should be shoved aside. "Because the Republicans! Because Trump!" Stop being so afraid and weak, and actually stand for what is right! You only have this one life!
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sedziobs

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1669 on: November 10, 2018, 03:09:55 AM »
You used the word "conditioning" at least four times.  There must be a logical fallacy for assuming the opposing position is due to conditioning.  I'm sure Lurk could type a few thousand words about it. Regardless, it's wrong.  My position is based on the results of progressive candidates.  You disagree, which is fine.  If you want to persuade me, show me contrary evidence.  Do you think everyone who disagrees with you is conditioned?

I think you are mistaken that everyone wants to end the American empire.  In a 2018 Gallup poll, only 13% thought the military was stronger than it needs to be.  39% said it's not strong enough, and 46% think it's just right.  68% think it's important for the US to be the world's #1 military power.  Middle America loves its military.

Of course everyone wants living wages, ending student debt, and medicare.  I don't need to look at opinion polls to understand that.  Conservatives want those goals achieved through the private sector.  They're not going to support federal programs that will raise their taxes.  I don't have to use the socialism label, they'll do it for me.

Then there's the issue of abortion, which makes single-issue voters out of many theocrats.  They're not going to be swayed by you or me standing for what is right.  I live among them, they're ideologues.  You said it well, "They cling to their identity and conditioning, to their need of an enemy, to their little socio-economic bubble, oblivious of universal principles and the needs and feelings of people who have it worse than them." (Yes, I know you were referring to me.)  This indicates that you are aware that the status quo is ingrained and won't change just by pushing ideals, whether it's Republicans! or liberals like me who just want to please the mommy and daddy in their heads.  So stop being so afraid and weak, and make Dore's magical thinking happen!

I'll point out that I don't use words like stupid or shitty (unless I'm throwing someone's own words back at them).

Noam Chomsky:
Quote
There are two issues. One is a kind of moral issue: do you vote against the greater evil if you don’t happen to like the other candidate? The answer to that is yes. If you have any moral understanding, you want to keep the greater evil out.

Second is a factual question: how do Trump and Clinton compare? I think they’re very different. I didn’t like Clinton at all, but her positions are much better than Trump’s on every issue I can think of.

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1670 on: November 10, 2018, 05:22:04 AM »
Re: Chomsky

Chomsky still believes in civil society and the possibilities of nonviolent internal structural reform in the USA. He marshals powerful arguments,  but of late I begin to wonder. What I see on the streets is disquieting.

sidd


Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1671 on: November 10, 2018, 06:11:58 AM »
[...]corporate hypocrites like the Clintons, Obama, Pelosi, Schumer, and so on. That's the whole idea. Republicans and Corporate Democrats, they both play their respective roles in keeping the status quo[...]
A little history: Last century Hillary tried hard to convince them 'Merricans of universal healthcare. A political suicide mission, as now even the "progressives" believe the shit that has been thrown at her by the GOP since back then. E.g. she went to Estonia to see how developed nations do healthcare. That was f-ing 21 years ago! See Michael Moore in Trumpland and listen closely to the Estonian doctor's comment...
The idea of medicare for all only caught on after Obama. Without "Obamacare" the U.S. healthcare debate would still be at square one zero.

Michael Moore in Trumpland:
https://youtu.be/Vw3CRzjEoiE?t=2940

----------------
P.S.: Me forgot the year, but I guess Hillary also visited Helsinki on her tour to Estonia. That's how she got on my radar. Before I didn't care. But all girls in Finland were super excited about her visit, incl. my girlfriend there...
« Last Edit: November 10, 2018, 08:37:58 AM by Martin Gisser »

sedziobs

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1672 on: November 10, 2018, 07:00:11 AM »
Regarding ballot measures, it wasn't a clean sweep for progressive issues in red states.  Here in Ohio, we voted down a measure to de-felonize and reduce sentencing for drug offenders.  Montana rejected medicaid expansion.  Alabama and West Virginia passed anti-abortion measures.  North Dakota rejected marijuana legalization.  Louisiana voted to prohibit felons from seeking public office.  Arkansas and North Carolina passed voter ID laws.

Still, ballot measures may be the best way to achieve some progressive policies, especially medicare and issues like minimum wage and marijuana that don't require taxation.  If the more popular issues can be separated from the ideological issues of abortion and the military, they can be successful.  I think free college and single payer healthcare are still longshots with the current electorate.

Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1673 on: November 10, 2018, 08:33:32 AM »
Dunno if this has been mentioned already:

Michigan voters approve anti-gerrymandering Proposal 2
https://eu.freep.com/story/news/politics/elections/2018/11/06/proposal-2-michigan-gerrymandering/1847078002/

Methinks this is more important and effective for progress than kicking out old Democrat polit war horses. That's why I'm posting it here.

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1674 on: November 10, 2018, 12:34:59 PM »
I'm sure the Clintons may have meant well at first, but they are prime examples of how power corrupts. Money in politics corrupts even more. Pelosi is the biggest fundraiser. She's the most corrupt of all. I don't understand why people can't even bring themselves to being open to the possibility.
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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1675 on: November 10, 2018, 12:53:38 PM »
You used the word "conditioning" at least four times.  There must be a logical fallacy for assuming the opposing position is due to conditioning.  I'm sure Lurk could type a few thousand words about it. Regardless, it's wrong.  My position is based on the results of progressive candidates.  You disagree, which is fine.  If you want to persuade me, show me contrary evidence.  Do you think everyone who disagrees with you is conditioned?

Of course not. It depends on how they present themselves. Like sidd recently said somewhere, the thinking of some people here is so predictable, one could write their comments for them. Your recent comments in this thread were full of conditioned myths that self-perpetuate with your help. And by the way, we are all conditioned. The only thing that differentiates people in this sense, is that some think about and question their own conditioning, and others are just blissfully unaware of and uninterested in it (regardless of IQ levels).

Your position based on the results of progressive candidates, is the result of what is called circular reasoning. If progressive candidates would get the same amount of media attention that conventional politicians get (positive media attention, not relentless smears to trigger knee-jerk reactions in the conditioned populace), if they wouldn't be fought tooth and nail by the money-in-politics adherents within the Democratic Party, you would see a Blue Wave like no surfer has ever witnessed.

Quote
I think you are mistaken that everyone wants to end the American empire.  In a 2018 Gallup poll, only 13% thought the military was stronger than it needs to be.  39% said it's not strong enough, and 46% think it's just right.  68% think it's important for the US to be the world's #1 military power.  Middle America loves its military.

So, make the army more efficient, instead of throwing tens of additional billions to it every year. And stop sending it out to protect or increase corporate interests.

Quote
Of course everyone wants living wages, ending student debt, and medicare.  I don't need to look at opinion polls to understand that.  Conservatives want those goals achieved through the private sector.  They're not going to support federal programs that will raise their taxes.  I don't have to use the socialism label, they'll do it for me.

This is just a lame excuse to not have to talk about it, exactly as the donors want it.

Quote
Then there's the issue of abortion, which makes single-issue voters out of many theocrats.  They're not going to be swayed by you or me standing for what is right.  I live among them, they're ideologues.  You said it well, "They cling to their identity and conditioning, to their need of an enemy, to their little socio-economic bubble, oblivious of universal principles and the needs and feelings of people who have it worse than them." (Yes, I know you were referring to me.)  This indicates that you are aware that the status quo is ingrained and won't change just by pushing ideals, whether it's Republicans! or liberals like me who just want to please the mommy and daddy in their heads.  So stop being so afraid and weak, and make Dore's magical thinking happen!

I am. You're fighting me because you're not taking AGW seriously enough to follow things to their logical conclusions. Your incrementalism will mean doom and death for millions if not billions of people. Heck, it's already doing that through socio-economic means already, and through the illegal wars the US is engaging in on your behalf.

Your conditioned thinking is the biggest stumbling block to meaningful solutions, because you're afraid to touch the core of the system. You're protecting it.

Quote
Noam Chomsky:
Quote
There are two issues. One is a kind of moral issue: do you vote against the greater evil if you don’t happen to like the other candidate? The answer to that is yes. If you have any moral understanding, you want to keep the greater evil out.

Second is a factual question: how do Trump and Clinton compare? I think they’re very different. I didn’t like Clinton at all, but her positions are much better than Trump’s on every issue I can think of.

People in non-swing states who take AGW seriously and voted for Hillary Clinton instead of Jill Stein and her Green New Deal, are idiots for letting the political wrestling events cloud their thinking, and cowards for not voting their conscience. This has only perpetuated the cycle of oligarchy.

And that last sentence was paraphrased from this text by Jimmy Dore, typed out and posted in another thread by Lurk, earlier today:

Jimmy "Delusional Wild-eyed Idealist" Dore says to his 410,000 Subscribers and others:

You know there's a movement for a People's Party right, which is the Bernie movement, the political director Nick Branagh who started this organization, and they're trying to get a third party because the majority of people don't belong to either of the two parties and the majority overwhelming majority of Americans want a third party, and the democratic party in their view and in my view too, it's it's not reformable (sic). So I could be wrong about that I don't think so.

So they put out their analysis and I thought it was really interesting and I'm gonna share some of it with you and then we'll talk to the author okay.

So the four leading progressive organizations that emerged from Bernie Sanders 2016 presidential campaign endorsed Democratic candidates across 46 states. Nearly all the candidates for Congress governor lieutenant governor and Senate lost.

That's 'Our Revolution', 'Justice Democrats', 'Brand New Congress' and the 'Democratic Socialists of America' endorsed a combined 107 candidates for Congress this year, so that's not local that's not state, that's on the federal level for Congress and they saw a hundred and seven candidates combined of all those organizations.

44 of them won their primaries and only 12 won their general elections, twelve. Five of those twelve were already in Congress, so that leaves seven. Five of those seven were longtime party politicians in line for higher office rather than insurgent candidates, so that leaves two, only two of them were actually opposed by the party and unseated establishment Democrats in the primaries - Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, who we had on the show before anyone  else had her on their shows - and Ayana Pressley.

There are 435 members of Congress. So it gets worse. Almost every candidate those groups
endorsed for governor lieutenant governor and Senate lost in the primary or general election.

The only ones who won as a result the Blue Wave, is a Corporate Wave, that has swept in the same kind of Democrat politicians that drove working people into Donald Trump's arms after eight years of Obama when Democrats busied themselves serving the wealthy.

Again the result will be an even sharper lurch to the Authoritarian Right. So they're making the case here that it doesn't  appear that this revolution is happening, and if you look at the numbers it's not.

Working people seek solutions that are proportionate to the size of the problems we face, something that looks and feels new down to our bones. Incrementalism and an attempted rebranding of the Democratic Party are the well-worn paths of the cycle into Oligarchy.

Feinstein and Pelosi kept saying they were  gonna protect the Affordable Care Act, that is not proportionate to the size of the health care problem that were facing, because if they do that they're still ignoring the 30 million people that have no health care, they're still ignoring all those people who can't afford their deductible to go see a doctor the first time.

That's what the Democratic Party is, the wall that keeps us progressives from connecting with
people, in inspiring the millions who want authentic credible change. Had we committed ourselves to building it after the 2016 election we would have either forced a Democratic Party to change in the face of an existential threat, or we would be replacing it and the Republican Party right now instead.

Most of us decided to work inside the Democratic Party so the cycle continues, voraciously consuming our climate, our economy, our society, and our lives.



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sedziobs

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1676 on: November 10, 2018, 06:21:52 PM »
You think I'm conditioned and I think you're conditioned.  Or rather, I think you have a poor understanding of Americans, viewing them through a Jimmy Dore filter from Austria. 

Anyway, this is getting tiresome.  I'm not sure there's any utility in continuing.

sedziobs

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1677 on: November 10, 2018, 06:52:30 PM »
Then all the POLLS must be wrong.
Some of the polls are probably wrong.  Most are probably right.  How we interpret them is a different matter.

Single payer healthcare and medicare for all are not necessarily the same thing.  A great majority wants medicare for all, but when it is actually proposed and paired with a federal tax hike, support dwindles.  Medicare for all (or "public option") preserves private health insurance.  Single payer does not.
Quote
Medicare-for-all gets nearly two-thirds support, but a “single-payer health insurance system” is a little more divisive: 48 percent have a positive reaction, and 32 percent have a negative reaction; the gap between favor and disfavor closes considerably. Medicare buy-ins poll the highest, with the support of three-fourths of Americans, including 6 out of 10 Republicans.

You could absolutely argue these numbers still seem pretty strong for single-payer described as such, given the conventional wisdom that such a plan is unworkable. But it is undoubtedly true that Medicare-for-all, as a slogan, is more popular — as are some of these more incremental policies, like giving people the option of buying into Medicare.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/7/2/17468448/medicare-for-all-single-payer-health-care-2018-elections

Same with free college tuition.  Conservatives want that too.  But they don't want to raise their taxes to pay for it.
Quote
Just 57 percent of free higher ed supporters would agree to coughing up more for Uncle Sam to get there.
https://www.ozy.com/acumen/ozy-poll-free-college-for-everyone/80096

That's the main point I am making.  Conservatives support progressive ideas generally, but are opposed to the costs of their implementation.  It's a problem that can't be wished away.

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1678 on: November 10, 2018, 08:02:11 PM »
I agree there's no utility in continuing, but right after you saying that, you continue in the same vein, repeating decades of think tank PR.

A great majority wants medicare for all, but when it is actually proposed and paired with a federal tax hike, support dwindles.

(...)

Same with free college tuition.  Conservatives want that too.  But they don't want to raise their taxes to pay for it.

(...)

That's the main point I am making.  Conservatives support progressive ideas generally, but are opposed to the costs of their implementation.  It's a problem that can't be wished away.

First of all, universal healthcare actually saves money, because you put a stake through the heart of the profit vampires. Same for education which is an investment that pays itself off in the future. Second of all, if you can throw 800 billion at the Pentagon every year, or trillions to save banks, it seems rather silly to believe you can't do the same for health care or education. Third of all, the whole 'how are you going to pay for that'-propaganda that mainstream, so-called lefty media has uncritically copied from conservatives as if it's Holy Scripture (which is why you also repeat it) and uses to smear progressives, is actually a fairy tale. It's conditioned propaganda. And that's because, four, all the money has to be sucked up by concentrated wealth.

This lady explains it well:



Or more extensively, recently on the Jimmy Dore Show:

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sedziobs

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1679 on: November 10, 2018, 08:34:41 PM »
I agree there's no utility in continuing, but right after you saying that, you continue in the same vein, repeating decades of think tank PR.
I meant there's no utility in continuing to hurl vapid insults.  Or make false assumptions about each other's beliefs, backgrounds, and sources, which is what most of your posts directed at me have been.  I'll gladly discuss actual issues.

Quote
First of all, universal healthcare actually saves money, because you put a stake through the heart of the profit vampires. Same for education which is an investment that pays itself off in the future. Second of all, if you can throw 800 billion at the Pentagon every year, or trillions to save banks, it seems rather silly to believe you can't do the same for health care or education.
I agree.  And yet, ideologues don't care.  That's my point.  It doesn't matter what the truth is, or what logical arguments you can put forward.  Voters will continue to be irrational.  I don't repeat the Holy Scripture propaganda because I believe it.  I simply acknowledge the effect it has on Americans.  I support democratic socialism, and I vote and communicate accordingly.  But I simultaneously believe that real change is unlikely until demographics have shifted.  Strategies and predictions don't have to align.

I think Dore's aloofness is counterproductive for progressives, even though I support his policy goals.  I think he misunderstands much of middle America.  I think if he lived for a year in the Ohio 7th district and conversed with people at megachurches, Nascar races and hunting lodges, he might have different views.   And I think the same would be true for you.

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1680 on: November 10, 2018, 08:39:33 PM »
Okay, keep going. And so we need the Democratic Party to not change because...
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sedziobs

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1681 on: November 10, 2018, 08:55:13 PM »
We need the Democratic party to change because they don't represent workers.  Republicans did a better job of it in 2016.  It was mostly propaganda, but they tailored their message to workers more effectively. 

But, I don't think the Democratic party will change course completely toward democratic socialism in the next decade. And I think making fun of Feinstein's hollow acceptance speech does nothing to advance that goal.  It's just going to further turn off establishment democrats to your message.  Stick to the issues.  Don't be vindictive and banal.

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1682 on: November 10, 2018, 09:56:38 PM »

First of all, universal healthcare actually saves money, because you put a stake through the heart of the profit vampires. 

This is more of an ideological assertion than empiric fact.
The US has long had a single-payer, universal coverage system--for those over 65.
Medicare currently covers about 40 million people, more than the population of some countries with their own health systems.

So, does having single-payer, universal coverage actually reduce costs, by itself?  There are a lot of detailed weeds to sift through to answer this, but overall the results are not terribly impressive for Medicare.  Essentially every other advanced nation with universal care does a far better job of cost-effective care, yielding often better outcomes at much lower cost, even for the over-65 segment of their populations. 

US Medicare isn't a shining success by this metric, despite being universal coverage as single-payer.  Some of the complex weeds to look trhough might include these references:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/07/upshot/medicare-advantage-spends-less-on-care-so-why-is-it-costing-so-much.html
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2017/04/26/the-hutchins-center-explains-prescription-drug-spending/

I think it's empiric fact that you don't *have* to exclude private insurers to yield cost-effective care under a universal health care system.  Germany, for example, utilizes private insurers under an all-payer system.  The private insurers are quite closely regulated, profits are modest but sufficient for them.  From all I've ever heard, it works pretty well.

What *really* distinguishes American high-cost care from the more cost-effective systems is that the US doesn't regulate prices for drugs and devices.  Producers charge whatever price maximizes profits, and when the healthcare system decides a given drug or device is essential, there's almost no limit to how high a price can be charged that will yield high profits, while still having a marketplace of buyers prepared to purchase.  It's insane.  It's effectively a pipeline of dollars from the US treasury directly into shareholders of the drug companies.

Drug and device prices can be regulated under single-payer, all-payer, mixed- model, whatever system you want.  And regulating drug and device prices will mostly fix the problem, as long as the rest of the system is somewhat rationally set up.

The core point I'm making is that the passioned calls for "Medicare for all" actually misses the point of what's needed.  The true problem, excess costs, won't necessarily be fixed under Medicare-for-all, and don't require such a change in order to be fixed.

The US can achieve universal, cost-effective care, but only with regulation of prices.  The progressives here need to focus on a solution that recognizes political feasibility.
Most who have employer-sponsored care would like to keep it--with lower costs.
Most who have Medicare would like to keep it as is--with lower costs
Most who have ACA exchange plans would like to keep them--with lower costs.
Most who are uninsured would like to be covered--if costs were affordable.

Bernie has been calling for an essentially Canadian system.  Great idea, except it's not politically feasible, and he doesn't emphasize the needed price controls.

What we really need is leaders who will call for price controls on drugs and devices.  That isn't happening so far.  Everybody debating healthcare issues seems to be arguing for or against approaches that won't really fix what's broken.

sedziobs

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1683 on: November 10, 2018, 10:12:30 PM »
Switzerland has a completely private system with a universal mandate.  I think something like that could be politically palatable here.  In fact, I think a lot of Swiss ideas could work here, given that they achieve quite a few socialist goals through the private sector.  Of course, having a tiny defense budget and direct voting helps.  Those are pipe dreams in the US.

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1684 on: November 10, 2018, 10:45:27 PM »
Switzerland has a completely private system with a universal mandate.  I think something like that could be politically palatable here.  In fact, I think a lot of Swiss ideas could work here, given that they achieve quite a few socialist goals through the private sector.  Of course, having a tiny defense budget and direct voting helps.  Those are pipe dreams in the US.

Thanks for this.  I hadn't looked into this system.  For those who might want to get into the weeds of the Swiss and German systems, these two pages seem descriptive:
https://international.commonwealthfund.org/countries/switzerland/
https://international.commonwealthfund.org/countries/germany/


SteveMDFP

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1685 on: November 11, 2018, 02:42:35 PM »
What we really need is leaders who will call for price controls on drugs and devices.  That isn't happening so far.  Everybody debating healthcare issues seems to be arguing for or against approaches that won't really fix what's broken.

I agree I think that quite true overall. There's some difficulties though in arguing about the US medicare system. IT's nothing nlike other world leading western nations incld Japan and others in Asia who have sound and much cheaper systems. Most nations integrate aspects of both private and public health care, and they pay for that in various ways. But yes, price controls and stopping abusive price gouging - the point Neven made - is still a CORE part of all of those other systems anyway.

Maybe I was wrong to never emphasize it but when I hear "Medicare for All" or a basic Single Payer Insurance system (as paid into/out by a Govt ordained Insurer service) then I have automatically defaulted to assuming - that like every other nation - a US system like those would be the same.

Well, we're on the same page here.  Inadequate price controls are the real problem in the US, and Medicare shares the fault.  To be sure, Medicare and insurers do have price controls on doctors and hospital services, Medicare and insurers pay what they say they will pay.

But drugs and devices are not price-controlled.  Insurers and Medicare try to set a few rules and negotiate to limit the financial hemorrhage, but many drugs and devices are monopolies (under patent). If the owning company wants to demand $300 for a pill (look into EpiPen, e.g.), there's no mechanism to forbid that.

Medicare, then, is not currently "fit for purpose" as a public option or universal health care system.  No universal coverage scheme is "fit for purpose."  The status quo is not "fit for purpose."

With proper price controls, there are many ways to create a satisfactory system for universal coverage.  With proper price controls, the ACA provides a framework to get to universal coverage, at much lower costs.  Premiums and copays could be small, even zero for anyone below median income (currently you have to be near poverty for this level of benefit under expanded Medicaid).

This would end up looking like the German system, with continued participation of private insurers (non-profit and highly regulated for-profit).  This might not satisfy some purists, but it would solve all the major US healthcare problems, and could be implemented without fighting many powerful enemies. 

The one fight that MUST be won is price controls on drugs and devices.  That should be attainable by leaders willing to articulate the fight.

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1686 on: November 11, 2018, 07:03:28 PM »
I want to try and see if we can find some more common ground.

We need the Democratic party to change because they don't represent workers.

This to me sounds like you would agree that Corporate Democrats exist, that it's actually a thing. The Democratic Party, grosso modo, represents donors and the consultant class.

We both say this needs to change, because changing the GOP is impossible, and so the only way forward for the USA (and by extension the world) is via the Democratic Party. Or perhaps a viable third party.

Is this correct?

It seems we disagree on the way the Democratic Party needs to be changed. I tend to promote Jimmy Dore's videos, because I think he explains the problem in a way that most people can grasp, and he does it with the passion that is needed for a change to come about (even though he himself doesn't believe changing the Democratic Party is possible).

I disagree with your arguments, because they feel worn out to me, but maybe you can point to some public figure who is like Jimmy Dore, but with a different style and perspective. Someone who is consistent, and not (too much) a part of the establishment.

Quote
But, I don't think the Democratic party will change course completely toward democratic socialism in the next decade.

So, when will it change? And how will it change? What do you propose?

And most importantly: Do we have time to wait for that, given the urgency of AGW and the suffering of a large part of the American people (perhaps leading to something worse than Trump before the next decade is out)?
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sedziobs

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1687 on: November 11, 2018, 09:39:52 PM »
Of course I agree that there are corporate democrats.  And it's definitely a problem.  And I do support third parties.  I voted for Stein in 2012.  And I try to persuade my Republican friends to consider the Libertarian party.  They can't let go of pushing for free market Growth!, but at least as libertarians they would support immigration, marijuana legalization, LGBT rights, freedom from religion, and ending the American empire and police state.

I don't know if you'll find someone like Dore on radio or TV.  I don't consume those types of media.  One of my favorite sources is Current Affairs magazine, especially Nathan J Robinson.  Here's a snippet of his midterm election analysis:
Quote
I am not encouraged by the fact that immediately after the election, instead of promising to fight harder next time, examining the party’s mistakes and figuring out how to support the next wave of challenges, Nancy Pelosi was promising “bipartisanship” and collaboration with Republicans. Don’t collaborate with Republicans, Nancy! Nothing they want is good! Pelosi said the country is tired of “division.” Well, it’s true that I don’t like division. But what I’m mostly tired of is the right-wing agenda, and I’d rather like it if the “liberal” congressperson from San Francisco was more committed to countering that agenda than making nice with it. As my colleague Luke Savage writes, bipartisanship is a curse that only ever produces terrible outcomes. I think Katherine Krueger of Splinter is exactly right: Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi are dragging down the Democratic Party. They have had little hand in its victories but are contributing to its losses. They need to be ousted as soon as possible.

The fact that progressive ballot initiatives won much more easily than progressive candidates might tell us something: People want a left agenda, they just don’t trust the Democratic Party to give it to them. We need good candidates who know how to win elections. In 2020, it will be essential to actually offer people something: not just charisma, not just anti-Trump platitudes, but a series of concrete promises for ways that voters’ lives will be improved. We need a simple but ambitious multi-point program that every candidate gets behind. (And it had better have a climate change component!)
https://www.currentaffairs.org/2018/11/lessons-from-last-night

The text is very similar to what Dore says.  But I don't get a sense of pettiness or aloofness from it.  Perhaps that's just due to the nature of written text vs video.  I would never recommend anyone who isn't already a democratic socialist to watch him.  I think it would push them in the wrong direction.

As I've said before, I think change will come through demographic shifts.  Of course I want it to change sooner, and I'm fighting for that.  But it's in my nature to separate my desires and strategies from my analysis and predictions, probably due to my engineering background.

We're probably already past the point where AGW will cause immense damage.  That doesn't mean we should give up, but we must accurately discern the world we live in.  The American growth machine is unlikely to be slowed, despite our best efforts.  The Asian growth machine is even less likely to be slowed.  Realistically, I think we're going to have to lean quite a bit on mitigation strategies, and hope emerging technologies like Controlled Environment Agriculture or electrochemical desalination offer solutions.  We can try to just limit emissions, but I just don't see it happening.  I don't think you do either.  It's a depressing issue.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2018, 10:18:23 PM by sedziobs »

sedziobs

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1688 on: November 12, 2018, 08:22:34 PM »
Well. What just happened?
I'm not sure why you're so surprised.  I objected to Dore's style and pushing rhetoric like Feinstein=Gingrich.  I have stated many times that I agree with most of his policy goals.  One key difference is that I supported Clinton over Trump (but also Bernie over Clinton).  Other than that, I have simply analyzed the America that I see.  You seemed to mistake it for the America I want.

Pmt111500

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1689 on: November 14, 2018, 05:31:50 AM »
American continent has been so sparsely populated they've not had the need to face some of the social issues yet. Might the corporate democrats want to oust this sort of youth off the party, I don't know.
I don't care enough of politics to find a more proper thread for this:
www.commondreams.org/news/2018/11/13/backed-ocasio-cortez-youth-climate-activists-arrested-pelosis-office-demanding

Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1690 on: November 14, 2018, 07:01:44 AM »
Corporate Democrat wins first D senate seat for Arizona in many decades. Mainstream media rejoices:

"Kyrsten Sinema’s Victory in Arizona May Be the Democrats’ Biggest Win of the Trump Era"
https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/kyrsten-sinemas-victory-in-arizona-may-be-the-democrats-biggest-win-of-the-trump-era

What will Kyle Kulinski say?


(from Jul 7, 2018)


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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1691 on: November 14, 2018, 06:04:32 PM »
It looks like Pelosi might be out after all: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/nancy-pelosi-speaker-seth-moulton_us_5beb802fe4b0caeec2bf1851

Nancy Pelosi’s Democratic Foes Think They Have The Votes To Block Her

"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1692 on: November 14, 2018, 09:55:42 PM »
What will Kyle Kulinski say?

He shortly talks about her in this discussion with Jimmy Dore on reforming the Democratic Party vs forming a third party:

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1693 on: November 15, 2018, 08:32:56 AM »
That sweet smell of money: Two senators, each old and evil, beholden to different paymasters

"Schumer told Warner, who has been the tech platform’s chief antagonist on Capitol Hill, that he should be trying to cooperate with Facebook instead of scrutinizing it."

https://thehill.com/policy/technology/416787-schumer-told-warner-to-back-off-of-facebook-report

Couldn't really have anything to do with the ten million spent on lobbying by Facebook. Or the million or three on 2018 elections.

http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/summary.php?id=D000033563

Now, not that Warner ever met a war he didn't like., and he surely loves the banks. Rolled back Dodd-Frank, and worked to make sure that you too could get a loan at 380% interest from payday lenders.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/3/6/17081508/senate-banking-bill-crapo-regulation

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/payday-lenders-democrats_us_5a0a211ee4b0bc648a0d5325

sidd
« Last Edit: November 15, 2018, 09:01:23 AM by sidd »

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1694 on: November 15, 2018, 11:28:13 AM »
Sedziobs, thanks for your reply, and sorry for not getting back to you earlier.

Of course I agree that there are corporate democrats.  And it's definitely a problem.

Thanks for acknowledging this. It's the core issue of this thread, and it has usually been an uphill struggle for getting people to even admit this simple fact (because the GOP, because Trump).

Quote
I don't know if you'll find someone like Dore on radio or TV.  I don't consume those types of media.  One of my favorite sources is Current Affairs magazine, especially Nathan J Robinson.  Here's a snippet of his midterm election analysis:

The text is very similar to what Dore says.  But I don't get a sense of pettiness or aloofness from it.

Yes, that's true, and it was a good piece, but one small gripe I have with it is the suggestion that the Democratic Party leadership (Pelosi and Schumer, etc) is doing the wrong things because they don't get it. But they know what they're doing. I'm pretty sure of it. And it doesn't hurt to stress that, to make sure that people get angry enough to really demand change. That's what Dore does really well, I think, with a pinch of comedy as well, as ridicule works even better when confronting power.

Quote
We're probably already past the point where AGW will cause immense damage.  That doesn't mean we should give up, but we must accurately discern the world we live in.  The American growth machine is unlikely to be slowed, despite our best efforts.  The Asian growth machine is even less likely to be slowed.  Realistically, I think we're going to have to lean quite a bit on mitigation strategies, and hope emerging technologies like Controlled Environment Agriculture or electrochemical desalination offer solutions.  We can try to just limit emissions, but I just don't see it happening.  I don't think you do either.  It's a depressing issue.

Yes, we agree here. I'm just hoping that things can go a bit faster, because playing nice and compromising, either lulls people to sleep or drains them. Corporate Democrats count on people promoting incrementalism and lesser-evilism (which is why I came down so hard on you at first), because it eventually leads nowhere.  I mean, demographic shifts (and waiting for them) is one thing, but who will guarantee that younger people won't fall for the same BS that slows everything down?

Dore wants to put fire at powerful people's feet, because power concedes nothing without a demand. Like he himself says in that conversation with Kulinski: He's not smart, he's not a good strategist (he might be wrong about pushing for a third party). But there's nothing wrong with his passion and intensity, or his analysis, grosso modo. I believe that stand-up comedians are excellent observers of society and politics, because they're used to taking different perspectives to find the funny aspects.
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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1695 on: November 15, 2018, 01:59:01 PM »
Corporate Democrats count on people promoting incrementalism and lesser-evilism (which is why I came down so hard on you at first), because it eventually leads nowhere.
In Arizona it lead to the first Dem senate seat since decades! (Cf. my post above.) I would have preferred someone like Ocasio-Cortez there - but no way in a state like AZ which is (still) dominated by the elderly white folks. You can easily have Social Democrats at the coasts, but not (yet) in Flyover America and Retirement Home America. It is a fucking two-party system (as a corollary of its design), not what we have in Europe, and that often requires compromise to get anywhere. Either-Or thinking is as bad in politics as it is in climate solutions.

I believe that stand-up comedians are excellent observers of society and politics, because they're used to taking different perspectives to find the funny aspects.
Dore is totally unfunny. He's an asshole, not a comedian. But you are right, the best news and analysis often comes from comedians. My favorite is Bill Maher.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2018, 02:11:22 PM by Martin Gisser »

sedziobs

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1696 on: November 15, 2018, 04:45:36 PM »
Neven, I appreciate the return to civility.

While I understand all aspects of your response, my opinions are closer to Martin's on this.  As he says, we would all like an Ocasio-Cortez in every state.  I don't that's realistic though.  And I think you and Dore are a little quixotic about it.  I personally do not find Dore funny at all.  He strikes me as a left-wing Greg Gutfeld. 

As for AGW, I think incrementalism is the solution that is most likely to come about, even if it's not preferred.  Lesser-evilism is one way to achieve it.  By rejecting incrementalism, we're gambling.  Sure, we could end up with a Green New Deal or something similar.  But we also could end up with a party that props up the coal industry and guts the EPA.  Without incrementalism, those two extremes will alternate in the US.  It's very unlikely that we will have a lasting Green New Deal that can withstand a conservative backlash like the one against Obamacare.  I view it as a risk management problem.  Incrementalism shouldn't be dismissed solely because Corporate Democrats want it.

As for the younger generations being brainwashed, there's no guarantee about anything.  But assuming that younger generations will become brainwashed by corporate media is a sort of converse to assuming conservatives will vote for progressive candidates.  Younger generations largely do not consume cable television.  Their sources are much more diverse.  It won't be as easy to brainwash them as it was the previous generations who relied on a handful of sources, promoting tribalism.

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1697 on: November 15, 2018, 05:02:33 PM »
As for AGW, I think incrementalism is the solution that is most likely to come about, even if it's not preferred.  Lesser-evilism is one way to achieve it.  By rejecting incrementalism, we're gambling.  Sure, we could end up with a Green New Deal or something similar.  But we also could end up with a party that props up the coal industry and guts the EPA.  Without incrementalism, those two extremes will alternate in the US.  It's very unlikely that we will have a lasting Green New Deal that can withstand a conservative backlash like the one against Obamacare.  I view it as a risk management problem.  Incrementalism shouldn't be dismissed solely because Corporate Democrats want it.

No, it should be dismissed because a) it hasn't worked so far, and b) it's suicide. Maybe we have different definitions of 'incrementalism', but I don't see how you achieve systemic changes that way, by saying: We can't talk about this, because it's too radical, people aren't ready for it, don't rock the boat. How do you change an issue, if you're not addressing it? And even if you can, in the case of AGW, how do you do it in time? In other words: Why play it safe when you can't?

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As for the younger generations being brainwashed, there's no guarantee about anything.  But assuming that younger generations will become brainwashed by corporate media is a sort of converse to assuming conservatives will vote for progressive candidates.  Younger generations largely do not consume cable television.  Their sources are much more diverse.  It won't be as easy to brainwash them as it was the previous generations who relied on a handful of sources, promoting tribalism.

They've been to school, they've lived in a consumer culture all their lives (excessively so in the US) and Facebook, Google, Amazon own them. They are already brainwashed. The only question is whether enough of them can liberate themselves from that. How do you make sure your demographic shift doesn't get co-opted by the next shape of neoliberalism? Through incrementalism and lesser-evil-ism? It doesn't make sense.

But anyway. That video I posted of Kulinski and Dore. I know you disagree with Dore, and I understand that, but does what Kulinski says, align more with how you view things?
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

sedziobs

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1698 on: November 15, 2018, 05:40:05 PM »
Maybe we have different definitions of 'incrementalism', but I don't see how you achieve systemic changes that way, by saying: We can't talk about this, because it's too radical, people aren't ready for it, don't rock the boat. How do you change an issue, if you're not addressing it? And even if you can, in the case of AGW, how do you do it in time? In other words: Why play it safe when you can't?
My definition of incrementalism has nothing to do with what is talked about.  It's about what strategy has a greater expected benefit (taking into account probability), and who to vote for to achieve that strategy.  Rock the boat in the primaries.  But don't capsize it in the general election.  And all throughout, talk about change. 


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They've been to school, they've lived in a consumer culture all their lives (excessively so in the US) and Facebook, Google, Amazon own them. They are already brainwashed. The only question is whether enough of them can liberate themselves from that. How do you make sure your demographic shift doesn't get co-opted by the next shape of neoliberalism? Through incrementalism and lesser-evil-ism? It doesn't make sense.
You can't make sure of or guarantee anything.  The point is that MORE young people read independent sources than older people.  Not all of them.  And I was referring to policies like single payer healthcare and ending the wars.  Consumer culture is a tougher nut. 

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But anyway. That video I posted of Kulinski and Dore. I know you disagree with Dore, and I understand that, but does what Kulinski says, align more with how you view things?
Not sure, I haven't watched that one yet.  I don't watch videos at work.  There has been a multitude of Dore videos posted, and I don't watch them all.  But I'll take a look this evening if I remember.

sedziobs

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #1699 on: November 15, 2018, 06:17:58 PM »
Re: younger generations' media and consumerism.  This is from a piece in Reason magazine, popular among young conservatives (with 10 times the audience of Dore on Facebook).  It's referring to the new Amazon HQ2.
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A very destructive kind of precedent is being set here that might exceed the potential damage to municipal budgets and market competition. We apparently find ourselves in a culture that is not only okay with the idea of a corporate hunt for data and privilege—it is downright cheered on.

Our recourse looks scant, and Amazon can't exactly unlearn what policymakers fell over themselves to reveal. So the task is to prevent this from happening again.

We cannot rely on corporations to not push for government perks where they can be gleaned. Nor can we apparently rely on our politicians to abstain from costly and counterproductive toadying. They must be tied to the mast: An interstate compact against these arrangements may be just the ticket.

Unfortunately, coordinating these leaders to cooperate for everyone's eventual benefit is easier described than achieved. The unceremonious conclusion of the HQ2 con will ideally give impetus for reform.
https://reason.com/archives/2018/11/13/hq2-how-amazon-made-governments-do-their/1