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SATire

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Re: But, but, but Germany ....
« Reply #100 on: September 22, 2019, 12:45:49 PM »
I will give you an example. ... My college, from Morroco, he has 4 children. So he don't has to pay taxes ont that 50 000.
Lol - what is that example for? He is working, thus not illegal. He gets more money not because he is from Morocco but because he has more children. If you do not like that blame your government for being to social. Maybe vote for vlaams belang next time or the neo-liberals, in case you still can find some...

The term "illegal" is a local US term - it is not valid internationally for cases under convention of Geneva. 

BeeKnees

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Re: But, but, but Germany ....
« Reply #101 on: September 22, 2019, 12:49:19 PM »
The agenda to demonise immigrants is clear.

Totally ignoring taxation of corporate profits that have been generated from having sufficient workers and the multiplier of government spending.

It's shameful.

Alexander555

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Re: But, but, but Germany ....
« Reply #102 on: September 22, 2019, 12:56:37 PM »
SATire: You don't understand what i say. Most arrive here with plenty children. So there is no point where they contribute something to that taxbasis they use. It's the people that contribute to that taxbasis that have to solve the problem. And that's the people that are already in that tax system. All the rest just falls from the sky. And if you look at many immigrants in these big cities. The shops they have, it's all blackmarket. They don't have an annual report. So again, they contribute nothing to that taxbasis. And we will have to safe 12 billion again, so that will be good for the Vlaams Belang. Because it's them who will have to pay for all your illegals.

Alexander555

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Re: But, but, but Germany ....
« Reply #103 on: September 22, 2019, 01:01:50 PM »
BeeKnees: I understand your viewpoint about these big corporations. That they hide their profits. But at least most of them already pay high taxes on their workers. It's not a blackmarket like most business in these immigrant infested places. Because most of them pay no taxes at all, just benefiting as much as they can.

blumenkraft

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Re: But, but, but Germany ....
« Reply #104 on: September 22, 2019, 01:07:53 PM »
Get a grip of how the world works man. You are a shame for your country.

PS: But who cares, eh? The president is just the same...
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Alexander555

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Re: But, but, but Germany ....
« Reply #105 on: September 22, 2019, 01:11:36 PM »
I feel sorry for you germans.

be cause

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Re: But, but, but Germany ....
« Reply #106 on: September 22, 2019, 01:23:03 PM »
comment deleted .. not even worth the words . b.c.
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 + 2 = 2021 
 (phew)

Alexander555

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Re: But, but, but Germany ....
« Reply #107 on: September 22, 2019, 01:36:06 PM »
And these immigrants, illegals, refugees...they eat the taxbasis that pays most of you scientists.

SATire

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Re: But, but, but Germany ....
« Reply #108 on: September 22, 2019, 01:39:22 PM »
SATire: You don't understand what i say. Most arrive here with plenty children.
Alexander, I am German so I do understand very well what you say. It is Racism. Normally it is rated well to have many children - they can pay your social system once you are retired. But in case those children are not of "belgic blood" (does such a thing exist? you are a mixture of many people migrating there earlier)....

oren

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Re: But, but, but Germany ....
« Reply #109 on: September 22, 2019, 02:34:43 PM »
Alexander, you could have 4 children and get the same 70,000. It doesn't have to do with being Moroccan or not, "illegal" or not. And in general I resent your racist/xenophobic undertones.

However, I do think that governments worldwide should not encourage large families (regardless whether "natives" or immigrants), as these are not sustainable on a global basis and are also a strain on a local basis. Most benefits (tax breaks, allowances) should go to the first child, which is also the most difficult to have and raise, both mentally and economically. For the second child there should be less benefits, and that's it. The benefit system that grows with each child (sometimes even more than linearly) can result in certain subcultures in a country that encourage to have more children at the public/government's expense, and over a generation these subcultures grow and have more political power thus reinforcing the benefits cycle.
In my country this is very obvious with the religious orthodox, with families that can even reach 15 children, and political power that is focused on long-term growth of the sector and maximal public money transfers. A similar situation arises with the Bedouin, where the father takes the benefits and maximizes number of children at the expense of the multiple wives (though bigamy is illegal workarounds are easily found when the subculture is so inclined). All this in a country that has one of the highest population densities in the world.
But the same logic applies in all countries - large families should be discouraged and small families of 1-2 children should be encouraged, with both economic incentives and public advisories. Most times it's also good for the country to encourage childless couples to have one child, who will probably get good attention and education.
So instead of raging against immigrants, you should lobby for making the benefits system more rational.

Yuha

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Re: But, but, but Germany ....
« Reply #110 on: September 22, 2019, 02:54:26 PM »
Alexander, all children are a burden to the society until they grow up and start working and paying taxes.

Your Moroccan colleague, on the other hand, did not milk the Belgian society for his first 18 years or so. He came in and probably started working productively and paying taxes almost immediately. In that sense, he might be more profitable to Belgium than you are.

The extra benefits your colleague gets are not for him, they are for his children with the idea that they will pay that money back to the society later.

So the best thing, for Belgian society, is that those children get a good education, are well integrated into the society, and become productive, tax paying citizens.

Alexander555

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Re: But, but, but Germany ....
« Reply #111 on: September 22, 2019, 03:07:52 PM »
They will have to bring the system down anyway. Because it attracts to many people from all over the planet to benefit from it. And it only works as long there is somebody that pays 1 € for 1 € that somebody gets. It bankrupts the country for the moment. And we also have 80 000 people a year that enter the country with a workpermit. The taxes they have to pay are not as high. Nobody wants to pay these high taxes anymore. Just some leftwingers that don't pay taxes.

blumenkraft

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Re: But, but, but Germany ....
« Reply #112 on: September 22, 2019, 03:37:14 PM »
your racist/xenophobic undertones.

... blatant racist/xenophobic attitude.

FIFY. :)
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Alexander555

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Re: But, but, but Germany ....
« Reply #113 on: September 22, 2019, 04:12:59 PM »
A couple years ago they lowered unemploymend benefits in Holland. I don't live far from the border. The city center here is flooded with dutch speaking africans. They just go after the highest benefits. But but but, we now have a very nice tool to avoid some taxes. And that's the chinese web shops. The quality is getting better fast, the price is only 25 % of the price over here. And we pay sales tax in China. So we don't have to contribute any longer to a system that is destroying itself.

Alexander555

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Re: But, but, but Germany ....
« Reply #114 on: September 22, 2019, 04:20:45 PM »
Alexander, you could have 4 children and get the same 70,000. It doesn't have to do with being Moroccan or not, "illegal" or not. And in general I resent your racist/xenophobic undertones.

However, I do think that governments worldwide should not encourage large families (regardless whether "natives" or immigrants), as these are not sustainable on a global basis and are also a strain on a local basis. Most benefits (tax breaks, allowances) should go to the first child, which is also the most difficult to have and raise, both mentally and economically. For the second child there should be less benefits, and that's it. The benefit system that grows with each child (sometimes even more than linearly) can result in certain subcultures in a country that encourage to have more children at the public/government's expense, and over a generation these subcultures grow and have more political power thus reinforcing the benefits cycle.
In my country this is very obvious with the religious orthodox, with families that can even reach 15 children, and political power that is focused on long-term growth of the sector and maximal public money transfers. A similar situation arises with the Bedouin, where the father takes the benefits and maximizes number of children at the expense of the multiple wives (though bigamy is illegal workarounds are easily found when the subculture is so inclined). All this in a country that has one of the highest population densities in the world.
But the same logic applies in all countries - large families should be discouraged and small families of 1-2 children should be encouraged, with both economic incentives and public advisories. Most times it's also good for the country to encourage childless couples to have one child, who will probably get good attention and education.
So instead of raging against immigrants, you should lobby for making the benefits system more rational.

So you think we can all get 70 000 € a year taxfree ? You have to understand that 50 000 € , comes from the government. Because normaly he would only make 20 000 a year. And that is already plenty for that job compared to other countries. We do have some skills, but no diploma. That money is also under pressure. Because now many people import workers, to avoid these taxes. I think they get taxed in their homecountry, or at the rate of their homecountry. That can easily make  20 000 € a year difference. That's 20 000 € pure profit for the person that imports them.

SATire

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Re: But, but, but Germany ....
« Reply #115 on: September 22, 2019, 05:53:55 PM »
Alexander, I agree that we should have harmonized tax system in EU and elsewhere. The current situation is often like robbery - small countries suck from large ones with a bit of profit and large damage for others.

But those tax systems are not robbery by people, because the people do not make such laws. It is your government to blame, not the person from e.g. Marocco. Freedom of people to move is larger value than freedom of money to move or goods. So globalization should first be beneficial for the people and 2nd for companies. That is also the simple EU rule.

Now we also have global warming - caused by rich northern countries and resulting in first damages in more southern countries. How can we not help them if they have real problems, like e.g. a gay person in Morocco or just any person in Syria, who is attacked from all sides?

If immigrants work on black markets or do illegal things your police/customs/tax officers should do their job. Again blame your government if they ignore such problems - but not generally people from other countries. If you do so please also blame all Belgians for any problem caused by one single Belgian. 

But now this thread should maybe get back to problems caused by Germany, as mentioned in the title. And such problems are plentiful and often related to CO2: No other country spent that much money for such little effect. Just because we like to give the money but do not like to abstain from consumption. Please feel free to learn from our huge mistake.

BeeKnees

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Re: But, but, but Germany ....
« Reply #116 on: September 22, 2019, 06:14:56 PM »
BeeKnees: I understand your viewpoint about these big corporations.

You really don't.
The point is that people working and earning or receiving benefits generate work for others, they spend money on goods and services that generate turnover for other companies and profits for the corporations who in turn pay corporation taxes that feed back into the system. 
Money doesn't stop at one person, regardless of background.  It flows on to the next and feeds back to government to pay taxes.  Governments dont need taxes to spend, they need taxes to control the flow of money. 

Your view that immigration is inherently financially bad and causing economic collapse is provably false and in my opinion is based on prejudice rather than fact.  In my experience the desire to avoid taxes is not an immigrant or local resident thing.  It's based on greed and wealth, with the wealthiest being far more likely to shift sums to tax havens and hide income than the poorest.
At least when a low income person avoids tax they will still have spent the money within the economy, generating tax returns further down the line, unlike those who hide the money indefinitely and to everyones detriment,
 

rboyd

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Re: But, but, but Germany ....
« Reply #117 on: September 23, 2019, 12:08:57 AM »
Please start another thread, maybe call it "But, but, but immigrants" and allow this one to be about the climate policies of, and progress/lack of progress in emission reductions, of Germany.

Florifulgurator

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Re: But, but, but Germany ....
« Reply #118 on: September 23, 2019, 03:05:17 AM »
Neues Wort (new wörd): Klimapillepallekanzlerin.

6/2019:


und jetzt (and now):
"Gute Nacht (good night), Klima-Kanzlerin!"
http://www.tagesschau.de/kommentar/klimakanzlerin-merkel-ende-101.html
« Last Edit: September 23, 2019, 03:16:40 AM by Florifulgurator »
Google image search on my avatar image gives "wood". In fact it is the lower part of David Hilbert's tombstone.

blumenkraft

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Re: But, but, but Germany ....
« Reply #119 on: December 05, 2019, 04:04:44 PM »
Never thought i'd live long enough to actually experience it, but here we go! \o/

Germany's Social Democrats Are Moving Left. Will it Save the Party?

As you can imagine the mainstream media doesn't like the move left. But this is IMHO the only possibility for them to survive. And the further left the better.



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Alexander555

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Re: But, but, but Germany ....
« Reply #120 on: December 05, 2019, 06:16:41 PM »
What surprises me a little bit about "mutti" is that she's not spending one worth on these concentration camps in China. Because it's not just a little issue, 1,5 million people. Many never return home. And still they are Germany's big friends. So germany is not that left at all, still the same radicals as 80 years ago. The only thing that has changed is the colour of their shirts. From braun and black, to red with some green on it. To let it look better.

blumenkraft

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Re: But, but, but Germany ....
« Reply #121 on: December 05, 2019, 06:50:46 PM »
How do you get the impression Germany's government is left?

Merkel is CDU which is the right-wing party here. And she is coalising with the centre-right SPD.

If - and this is a very big if - the SPD moves left now due to the new heads of the party, this would locate them centre-left. Wouldn't make the government awfully left-wing either.
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blumenkraft

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Re: But, but, but Germany ....
« Reply #122 on: January 12, 2020, 11:19:10 AM »
Das is cool!

Learn German vocabulary by reading in your native language !!

https://home.language-mate.com
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NeilT

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Re: But, but, but Germany ....
« Reply #123 on: January 12, 2020, 07:34:01 PM »
One countries centre right is another's center left.

UK PM Clement Atlee, UK centre left Labour Party, was aked what the American parties were like in ideology.

He replied.

The Republicans are their right wing party and are very much like our Conservatives. The Democrats are their more centre party and they are very like our Conservatives...

You have to know an awful lot more about a country than the label on their party before you understand where they stand in relation to your own politics.

The SPD might want to take pause and view Jeremy Corbyn's "lurch to the left" and how it served his party in the last election.

They returned their worst results since 1935.
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rboyd

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Re: But, but, but Germany ....
« Reply #124 on: January 12, 2020, 09:04:22 PM »
An excellent take on things NeilT! I always have to remind myself to reorient my brain around the meaning of "progressive", "conservative", "communist", "liberal", "right wing" from country to country - and from one era to another. "Socialist" Corbyn would have been mainstream in the UK 1970s for example. For those in the ex-Soviet countries the changes must have been quite disorienting.

Then of course there are the non-liberal neo-liberals, and the so-called "capitalist democracy" that seems to be able to mean anything that is capitalist, and of course the "anti-semite" slur that really means "supports the Palestinians" (as against real anti-semites who are ignorant bigots). Sometimes I feel like I live in a propaganda masterclass with a shade of 1984 ("war is peace!"), seems to get worse every time I watch a bit of the mainstream media.

blumenkraft

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Re: But, but, but Germany ....
« Reply #125 on: January 13, 2020, 06:02:23 AM »
Actually, it's a wrong take IMHO!

We can boil the political forces into two, no matter where you are in the west. One is democratic and wants more power to the people, and the other one is autocratic, wanting the power to stay in the hands of the rich by pursuing neoliberal politics.

Quote
The Republicans are their right wing party and are very much like our Conservatives. The Democrats are their more centre party and they are very like our Conservatives...

They are both status quo parties. They are both autocratic.

Quote
The SPD might want to take pause and view Jeremy Corbyn's "lurch to the left" and how it served his party in the last election.

The SPD is suffering because they took Germany into war, and cut social security, and sold us out to the rich. They are taking the hit for their neoliberal politics.

Corbyn took the hit because he's an utter moron for being a Brexit guy. Also, he was the target of defamation campaigns from the ones in power.

The apocalypse is already here; it's just not very evenly distributed.

rboyd

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Re: But, but, but Germany ....
« Reply #126 on: January 13, 2020, 06:53:41 AM »
Sadly, I have to agree about Corbyn being an utter moron with respect to Brexit. Deeply sad, given that it probably blew a chance for the true progressives for many years to come.The defamation campaign was despicable, but the Brexit error was what really counted.

NeilT

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Re: But, but, but Germany ....
« Reply #127 on: January 13, 2020, 01:30:29 PM »

The SPD is suffering because they took Germany into war, and cut social security, and sold us out to the rich. They are taking the hit for their neoliberal politics.


You see this is the difference between countries.  Those things you just mentioned are right of centre  in the UK.  Neoliberalism, in the UK, is considered left of centre.


Corbyn took the hit because he's an utter moron for being a Brexit guy. Also, he was the target of defamation campaigns from the ones in power.

Corbyn is so far left he is virtually communist. Even British working class don't like communism.

Rboyd, Corbyn wasn't so much defamed as put under a spotlight.  British Labour voters consider him a traitor to the country.  Part way through the campaign he realised that British working class did not associate spending bucket loads of cash on nationalising stuff as actually "doing" something for them.  So his spin team came up with the idea of giving free Internet once they had renationalised telecom.

Unfortunately for Corbyn, British education changes really have produced a nation who can think and question, so they thought about who actually pays for government, especially after the Government just got rid of a whole raft of companies running utilities and asked themselves just how much their "free" Internet would cost.

Corbyn also got it totally wrong on Brexit.  He should have been as convincing as possible that he would have taken the UK out of the EU. That was his only option to cripple the Tories.  Instead he decided to try and steal the Liberal vote by claiming he would kill brexit by the back door.

Liberals really don't like Trotskyites.  Well not in the UK anyway.

At the same time the Liberals, who promised to ignore the people's vote and void the referendum result, were crushed with their leader losing her Scottish seat.

If you want to see how Corbyn would have been received in the 70's and 80's, it is worth reading up on how Labour dealt with Militant.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militant_(Trotskyist_group)

It is interesting to see the differing views though
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blumenkraft

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Re: But, but, but Germany ....
« Reply #128 on: January 13, 2020, 01:38:24 PM »
Neoliberalism, in the UK, is considered left of centre.

Neoliberalism is by default autocratic and therefore not at all left. Far away from anything left, actually.

Words have meanings and if we don't use the words for what they actually mean, we are opening the doors for all kinds of manipulations.

Just as they manipulated you into the belief neoliberal politics are not autocratic and harmful for society.



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kassy

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Re: But, but, but Germany ....
« Reply #129 on: January 13, 2020, 01:58:43 PM »
re 125 above.

Would it not be better to state:
One side poses as democratic and wanting more power to the people.

We do not really have 2 sides anymore just different ´accents´ which are PR in the middle and extremer groups mostly too the right but they are populist not democratic.

We experimented with some things like an election for mayors so when the day game in Utrecht we could choose between two guys from the same party. Less then 10% of people voted and a huge part of those votes were not legal so this experiment with more power to the people failed.
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NeilT

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Re: But, but, but Germany ....
« Reply #130 on: January 13, 2020, 05:12:33 PM »
[

Neoliberalism is by default autocratic and therefore not at all left. Far away from anything left, actually.

Apologies, should have read that.

So reading the blurb on it, neoliberalism doesn't exist.  Thatcherism is hard core Conservatism.  This is something that Libaleralism stands against.

God knows how they got that name.  If SPD are hard conservative, I can see that moving left into the middle ground might benefit them.

Blair showed that one. He is the only Labour leader to win an election in the last 45 years. He did it from the centre ground after standing on all left leaning members.
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rboyd

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Re: But, but, but Germany ....
« Reply #131 on: January 15, 2020, 07:28:33 AM »
Liberalism tends to believe in laissez faire - leaving the markets alone to function. Neoliberalism believes in the role of the state to construct markets through state action - through such things as deregulation, privatization, removing the "restrictive practices" of unions (e.g. the miners in the UK), cutting capital gains taxes, cutting "inefficient" benefits that stop the free market from working its magic, forcing other countries to deregulate and privatize etc.

Democracy is not required, autocracy is fine. The first real test was that of the "Chicago Boys" in Pinochet's Chile in the 1970s. Within a few years the state had to bail things out. The hidden neoliberal reality, "risk taking entrepreneurs" have to be regularly bailed out by the state.

Ken Feldman

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Re: But, but, but Germany ....
« Reply #132 on: January 16, 2020, 12:58:19 AM »
The last solar auction for 2019 in Germany was oversubscribed.

https://www.renewablesnow.com/news/avg-surcharge-at-eur-568mwh-in-oversubscribed-solar-tender-in-germany-683582/

Quote
January 15 (Renewables Now) - The last solar tender for 2019 in Germany, held on December 1, aimed to award 500 MW of capacity and got bids for 1,344 MW.

Quote
In geographical terms, most of the new solar photovoltaic (PV) capacity from the December tender will be installed in the states of Bavaria (148 MW), Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania (80 MW) and Schleswig-Holstein (49 MW).

The next tender for solar power is scheduled for February 1.